Re: [whatwg] WA1: rev attribute
Matthew Raymond wrote: Most common link types out there are used with 'rel', but some 'rev' values can also be useful. Here are some use cases: - rev=footnote for a link back from the footnote or endnote to the source anchor in the main text - rev=help for a link to the part of the site that the help text is about This is largely useless, as you are unlikely to start at a help/footnote document and go to the document for which the help document was written. The most common situation is that you clicked the help/footnote like from the parent document, and therefore the relationship is already established from the parent document. Or maybe I just scrolled to the bottom after reading the whole text straight through and want to jump to the context of the footnote I'm now reading. (The footnote and its context could be in the same document, too, y'know.) - rev=author on a personal site or resume for links to documents s/he has written Here, you're using |rev| to replace missing metadata in the target document. What happens when meta name=Author is defined in the target documents? Does |rev| override? What would a UA do with the information anyway? If there's a link, wouldn't there be text stating that the creator of the personal site created the document the link is to? I think you're missing the point here. 'rev' doesn't say anything more about the linked document than 'rel' does. It's just a way of expressing inverse relationships without having to pull out thesauri and latin prefixes and excessive hyphens. At least with |rel|, you could harvest hyperlinks and put them into a link toolbar. With |rev|, you're describing the relationship type of the current document. Therefore, I really don't see what user agents are supposed to do with |rev| and how they can create a useful interface that can exploit this attribute. The user agent doesn't need to do anything to make the markup useful: if you look at XFN, for example, UAs didn't support any of it, but authors still used the markup as hooks to for styling. Counterexample: | meta name=refuting content= | Intelligent Design; | http://hemadeyou.org | I don't think I need to say anything about how ridiculous a counter- suggestion that is. ~fantasai
Re: [whatwg] [html5] window.print() undefined
Ian Hickson wrote: On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Dean Edwards wrote: The point is, I can do all sorts of things using script. Alter styles, create elements etc. But when I switch media, I have no programmatic way to alter those effects. Please specify I means to do this. You don't switch media. It's quite possible to have multiple media all at the same time. For instance Opera can be in speech mode and in screen mode simultaneously. See the introduction to the Browsing Context section: http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#browsing I'm getting fed up going round in circles trying to justify this. OK, we don't switch media. But when I press print or invoke the print method, a copy of the DOM is sent to the printer. If I have altered the DOM by adding elements or by changing the style property then I would like to be able to undo those changes before my DOM goes to the printer. It is not good enough to say that I should start messing about with classes and so forth or that it is bad practice to amend the style property directly. So long as I can do these things I want a way to undo them before my DOM is sent to a print device. -dean
[whatwg] [html5] attribute value whitespace handling
What kind of input type is the following according to HTML 5: input type= email According to the attribute value rules of HTML 4 it should be 'email', but I'm not sure how that is implemented at the moment. Similar question for: input type=email value=[EMAIL PROTECTED] ... valid or invalid? As Web Forms 2 extends on HTML 4 at the moment this is not particularly clear and it would be nice to know. -- Anne van Kesteren http://annevankesteren.nl/
[whatwg] The Audio Interface
A couple of questions regarding the Audio, URL:http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#sound interface 1. Is it sensible to put a restriction on contnet types? 2. Regarding the loop() method on the Audio interface: Would it be sensible to add loop points/offsets? See URL:http://www.borg.com/~jglatt/tech/wave.htm for a description of the wave file format. 3. Should we provide a means to control playback speed where appropriate for a sound? -- Arve Bersvendsen http://virtuelvis.com/
Re: [whatwg] [html5] window.print() undefined
Dean Edwards wrote: OK, we don't switch media. But when I press print or invoke the print method, a copy of the DOM is sent to the printer. If I have altered the DOM by adding elements or by changing the style property then I would like to be able to undo those changes before my DOM goes to the printer. It is not good enough to say that I should start messing about with classes and so forth or that it is bad practice to amend the style property directly. So long as I can do these things I want a way to undo them before my DOM is sent to a print device. I know this isn't how you meant it, but this all seems a bit user hostile. The user sees something on the screen he/she wants to print, but an event is called at the last minute that changes the content to something else before the user can print. So if I select the part of the page you want to undo and tried to print the selection, I'd get a blank page? And in theory, the entire page could be hidden. Sounds like print-specific DRM to me. Perhaps what you really want is a media-specific way of setting styling properties: | element.style.media(print).display = block;
Re: [whatwg] [html5] window.print() undefined
Matthew Raymond wrote: Dean Edwards wrote: OK, we don't switch media. But when I press print or invoke the print method, a copy of the DOM is sent to the printer. If I have altered the DOM by adding elements or by changing the style property then I would like to be able to undo those changes before my DOM goes to the printer. It is not good enough to say that I should start messing about with classes and so forth or that it is bad practice to amend the style property directly. So long as I can do these things I want a way to undo them before my DOM is sent to a print device. I know this isn't how you meant it, but this all seems a bit user hostile. The user sees something on the screen he/she wants to print, but an event is called at the last minute that changes the content to something else before the user can print. So if I select the part of the page you want to undo and tried to print the selection, I'd get a blank page? And in theory, the entire page could be hidden. Sounds like print-specific DRM to me. You can do that with css anyway, what is your point? Every browser feature adds opportunities to both help and annoy the user, but please let is be up to de web developer to act responsible with the features he has available. Who wants to annoy the customer anyway? -- Sjoerd Visscher http://w3future.com/weblog/
[whatwg] [WA1] Audio and relative URIs
Hi, the section on Audio, http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#sound, says: The Audio() constructor takes a single argument, a URI (or IRI), which is resolved using the script context's window.location.href Does this mean that a possible base href should indeed be ignored here? and if two identical clips are started with a two second interval then when the sound is reenabled they must still be two seconds out of sync. I'm not sure that's easily implementable... If the sound is disabled for five seconds after the start of a sound and then enabled, does the clip have to start playing at the fifth second? -biesi smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [whatwg] [html5] window.print() undefined
Kornel Lesinski wrote: style attribute is supposed to have cascade value like ID selector. No, style attributes override everything. See http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/cascade.html#specificity smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [whatwg] [html5] window.print() undefined
Matthew Raymond wrote:
I know this isn't how you meant it, but this all seems a bit user
hostile. The user sees something on the screen he/she wants to print,
but an event is called at the last minute that changes the content to
something else
You can already do that with CSS...
@media print { html { display:none; } }
smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [whatwg] [html5] window.print() undefined
Sjoerd Visscher wrote: Matthew Raymond wrote: I know this isn't how you meant it, but this all seems a bit user hostile. The user sees something on the screen he/she wants to print, but an event is called at the last minute that changes the content to something else before the user can print. So if I select the part of the page you want to undo and tried to print the selection, I'd get a blank page? And in theory, the entire page could be hidden. Sounds like print-specific DRM to me. You can do that with css anyway, what is your point? That CSS can be overridden by the user stylesheet? Every browser feature adds opportunities to both help and annoy the user, but please let is be up to [the] web developer to act responsible with the features he has available. Who wants to annoy the customer anyway? Businesses annoy customers all the time, but that's beside the point. If all HTML content is semantic rather than presentational, what is the purpose of not displaying it in a specific media? We're not talking about media-specific presentation (since CSS+XBL handles that nicely). We're talking about media-specific content. The only reason I can think of for such control is if you're using the web app like a word processor or something and you want to print the document but not the UI. In that situation, it may be better to simply allow the web developer to copy the document contents into a separate document object, then manipulate and print the content from that document separately. This allows the same effect as the before and after print events without tampering with the browser's normal print mechanism. You just clone the document, modify the clone at will, print it and destroy it. The web app should never hijack the behavior of a common browser function.
Re: [whatwg] [html5] window.print() undefined
Quoting Matthew Raymond [EMAIL PROTECTED]: You can do that with css anyway, what is your point? That CSS can be overridden by the user stylesheet? Userbase: 2. (Both are geek.) -- Anne van Kesteren http://annevankesteren.nl/
[whatwg] [WA1] XML Namespaces
Hi, http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-dom says: To ease migration from HTML to XHTML, UAs must assign the http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml namespace to elements in that are parsed in documents labelled as text/html, at least for the purposes of the DOM and CSS. This does not seem to be what currently happens. Neither Mozilla nor Opera (checked in 7.54) do that, document.body.namespaceURI returns null for HTML documents. (MSIE does not seem to support that attribute) If that's not what that paragraph meant, then I think it needs some clarification what it did mean with for the purposes of the DOM. -biesi smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [whatwg] [html5] window.print() undefined
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Dimitri Glazkov wrote:
No, I don't believe that is always the case. The user _sometimes_ wants
to print what he/she sees, but my experience tells me that most of the
time, the user wants to print what is considered main content of the
page. For example, I am using my online banking, and want to print an
invoice. Do I want to print the navigation and all contextual content
that surrounds my invoice on the Web page? Of course not.
@media {
navigation { display: none; }
}
Now, the second question is whether @media print is enough to provide
all functionality needed for getting this done. I tend to think no.
Why? Because just CSS (in its current state) is not enough to provide
all functionality associated with rendering of the page. How is print
rendering different?
What functionality are you lacking? (Both in screen and print.)
--
Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Re: [whatwg] [html5] window.print() undefined
On 7/19/05, Ian Hickson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
@media {
navigation { display: none; }
}
Ok, at least we all agree that it's not what the user sees :)
What functionality are you lacking? (Both in screen and print.)
Like, adding contextual content for print. Just like your main content
is not the only thing on the page, same may hold true for the print.
I think this discussion is about to turn into debunking of specific
application requirements and approaches, but I'll bite:
a) my invoice format requires a timestamp that says something like
this: printed by [person] on [timestamp].
b) To capture the essence of the browsing session, I would like to
build a breadcrumb at the bottom of the printed page, displaying
titles and urls of pages the user have visited on the site during this
visit.
:DG
Re: [whatwg] [html5] window.print() undefined
Ian Hickson wrote:
What functionality are you lacking? (Both in screen and print.)
Suppose I want to add inprint links' full urls in parenteses after
links' text. In CSS I can do;
a[href]:after {
content: attr(href);
}
But it's not enough since href may contain unresolved URL and I want
them full.
Re: [whatwg] [html5] attribute value whitespace handling
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Anne van Kesteren wrote: What kind of input type is the following according to HTML 5: input type= email WF2 doesn't define this (intentionally). Extrapolating from HTML4 it would be of type email; which is probably what WA1 will eventually say. According to the attribute value rules of HTML 4 it should be 'email', but I'm not sure how that is implemented at the moment. Similar question for: input type=email value=[EMAIL PROTECTED] ... valid or invalid? The form control there would not be valid. There's nothing in either HTML4 or WF2 that says that leading whitespace on the value= attribute should de stripped, as far as I can tell. As Web Forms 2 extends on HTML 4 at the moment this is not particularly clear and it would be nice to know. The problem is that this is a slippery slope that I don't really want to go down with WF2. I agree that these things should be defined and I'll make sure that they are in WA1. -- Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
[whatwg] Re: [wf2] repetition model addition part
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Anne van Kesteren wrote:
table
tr
thamountthtype
tr id=order repeat=template repeat-start=1
tdfoothbar
/table
... becomes:
table
tr
tdfoothbar
tr
thamountthtype
tr id=order repeat=template repeat-start=1
tdfoothbar
/table
Yes. Use thead.
Same thing happens I guess when you have additional rows with
repeat={integer} set.
Not sure what you mean here.
--
Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Re: [whatwg] WA1: meta attribute requirements
Ian Hickson wrote: You may notice that very few elements and attributes in HTML5 at the moment are required. This is not entirely coincidental. I think I know what you are getting at: You want to eradicate invalid HTML on the web, by declaring everything to be valid! From the perspective of a browser vendor, its not really important whether some input is conformant or not, the browser need to handle it as gracefully as possible anyway, and users want browsers to be compatible regardless of whether the html is valid or not (bug-for-bug compatibility). But the notion of conformance is still quite useful to authors and authoring tools. E.g. if a META-element without any attributes appears in a document, its clearly due to an oversight or a bug in some tool, so it would be useful to have a conformance checker or authoring tool flag this, even if a browsers will handle it somewhat gracefully (by ignoring it). regards Olav Junker Kjær
Re: [whatwg] WA1: conformance checker conformance requirements
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, fantasai wrote: Then, please make that exception explicit in the conformance requirements section. Currently the only normatively allowed exception is for interpretation of the author's intent -- and checking script output doesn't fall into that category. As I already noted, the entire subject of conformance for scripted content has yet to be properly resolved in the conformance section. -- Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Re: [whatwg] [html5] attribute value whitespace handling
Quoting Ian Hickson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: input type=email value=[EMAIL PROTECTED] ... valid or invalid? The form control there would not be valid. There's nothing in either HTML4 or WF2 that says that leading whitespace on the value= attribute should de stripped, as far as I can tell. They may be stripped and authors should not include them. Still confusing and in need for clarification. In two steps: 1. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#adef-value-INPUT 2. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/types.html#type-cdata
Re: [whatwg] [html5] window.print() undefined
Dimitri Glazkov wrote: On 7/19/05, Ian Hickson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What functionality are you lacking? (Both in screen and print.) Like, adding contextual content for print. Just like your main content is not the only thing on the page, same may hold true for the print. I think this discussion is about to turn into debunking of specific application requirements and approaches, but I'll bite: a) my invoice format requires a timestamp that says something like this: printed by [person] on [timestamp]. b) To capture the essence of the browsing session, I would like to build a breadcrumb at the bottom of the printed page, displaying titles and urls of pages the user have visited on the site during this visit. :DG I'll add another case: the onafterprint event could be used in a "wizard"-style application where printing some document is step 3 of 10, for example. The application could proceed to the next step (not necessarily a different document) automatically without requiring a button that says "click here when done printing". That's a case that a media-specific stylesheet cannot handle. Automating tasks and reducing clicks are both high priorities in my development of web applications. If the ability to set printer settings such as portrait/landscape is available, an "onbeforeprint" event could be used to prompt the user whether they'd like to automatically switch their paper orientation to portrait or landscape before printing. (The same can be said for margins and headers/footers.) This can be done in the print dialog, but if it is truly important to how the page prints, a separate step that highlights the importance of the print setting to the user would be helpful in reducing calls to my company's tech support line. Greg
Re: [whatwg] [html5] window.print() undefined
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Dimitri Glazkov wrote:
a) my invoice format requires a timestamp that says something like this:
printed by [person] on [timestamp].
This use case is being dealt with in the CSS paged media and CSS generated
content specifications.
b) To capture the essence of the browsing session, I would like to build
a breadcrumb at the bottom of the printed page, displaying titles and
urls of pages the user have visited on the site during this visit.
That seems like something that would be useful regardless of the medium.
Put it in the content, and then hide it in the media you don't want it
visible for, e.g.:
@media screen {
footer .breadcrumbs { display: none; }
}
I agree that your use cases are real, don't get me wrong. I just don't
think that it makes sense to consider them as being something you would do
upon entering a print mode.
--
Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Re: [whatwg] [html5] window.print() undefined
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Maniac wrote:
Suppose I want to add inprint links' full urls in parenteses after
links' text. In CSS I can do;
a[href]:after {
content: attr(href);
}
But it's not enough since href may contain unresolved URL and I want
them full.
That's a use case for a new feature in CSS, not in HTML. :-)
--
Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Re: [whatwg] [html5] attribute value whitespace handling
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The form control there would not be valid. There's nothing in either HTML4 or WF2 that says that leading whitespace on the value= attribute should de stripped, as far as I can tell. They may be stripped and authors should not include them. Still confusing and in need for clarification. In two steps: 1. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#adef-value-INPUT 2. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/types.html#type-cdata Ah indeed, my bad. Yes, this will have to be defined more clearly in HTML5. -- Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
[whatwg] Display Issue with Web Applications 1.0 Working Draft
In the Web Applications 1.0 Working Draft 18 July 2005, Section 2.3.8. The header element (link: http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-header) there is an example of code given. The penultimate line in the code is *extremely* long, causing the browser window to double in width just for this line. The effect is visible in Opera 8.01 and Firefox 1.0.5 on Windows XP, and likely other browsers and platforms too. The page also seems amazingly long for a web page. This means it takes a long time to load (even on broadband). If the user only wants one section, they still have to load the whole thing. Previewing it for print in Opera 8 (which takes several seconds) gives a total of 218 pages. Like the W3C specs, it would be so much better if each section were split into separate pages. Chris Hester
Re: [whatwg] [html5] window.print() undefined
Ian Hickson wrote: That's a use case for a new feature in CSS, not in HTML. :-) It is solvable with events discussed. My point is that authors traditionally use scripting to solve things that can't be solved with other means. It's normal.
Re: [whatwg] Display Issue with Web Applications 1.0 Working Draft
Quoting Christopher Hester [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The page also seems amazingly long for a web page. This means it takes a long time to load (even on broadband). If the user only wants one section, they still have to load the whole thing. Previewing it for print in Opera 8 (which takes several seconds) gives a total of 218 pages. Like the W3C specs, it would be so much better if each section were split into separate pages. I'm opposed to that. Separate sections in separate documents make reading the draft a pain. (I have argued otherwise in the past...) -- Anne van Kesteren http://annevankesteren.nl/
Re: [whatwg] [html5] window.print() undefined
On 7/19/05, Ian Hickson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
b) To capture the essence of the browsing session, I would like to build
a breadcrumb at the bottom of the printed page, displaying titles and
urls of pages the user have visited on the site during this visit.
That seems like something that would be useful regardless of the medium.
Put it in the content, and then hide it in the media you don't want it
visible for, e.g.:
@media screen {
footer .breadcrumbs { display: none; }
}
This one was a trick question, sorry :) The per-session breadcrumbs
most definitely do not belong in markup. This breaks REST paradigm and
makes things like caching next to impossible. It's just wrong use of
HTTP.
The only correct way to implement them is to generate and render then
on/from the client side. Obviously, this doesn't impact either line of
reasoning behind print/screen media and does not invalidate what you
were saying -- consider it a sideline story :)
However, I think am starting to see what you're seeing. Basically,
your approach is to provide all content in the DOM tree and then flip
switches as needed to present it to various media types. Right?
Essentially, you are creating all-in-one DOM tree, where all content
co-exists in the same DOM space, then providing illusion of disparate
DOM spaces by turning on/off parts of the tree as needed using CSS. In
a way, you are using CSS to control representation of information,
rather than just content presentation.
This is the exact opposite of my sanboxing thinking, where I suggest
that separate DOM trees (representations) may be created.
But what about the cases where content needs to be reordered or just
plain needs to be slightly different? Is that still realm of CSS?
:DG
Re: [whatwg] Display Issue with Web Applications 1.0 Working Draft
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Christopher Hester wrote: In the Web Applications 1.0 Working Draft 18 July 2005, Section 2.3.8. The header element (link: http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-header) there is an example of code given. The penultimate line in the code is *extremely* long, causing the browser window to double in width just for this line. The effect is visible in Opera 8.01 and Firefox 1.0.5 on Windows XP, and likely other browsers and platforms too. Yeah. Is this a problem? I don't really want that line to be split onto multiple lines since it's contents aren't really important, but I don't really want to make it shorter either since that text was all copied from an existing page. The page also seems amazingly long for a web page. This means it takes a long time to load (even on broadband). If the user only wants one section, they still have to load the whole thing. Previewing it for print in Opera 8 (which takes several seconds) gives a total of 218 pages. Like the W3C specs, it would be so much better if each section were split into separate pages. Yes, this might happen eventually (I just need to write a script to split the page into multiple files while still maintaining all the links). For now, it's *massively* easier from an editing perspective if the document is a single page. I've also had feedback from people saying they much prefer one-page specs (even if they are hundreds of printed pages long) because it makes searching for things much easier. Thanks, -- Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Re: [whatwg] [html5] window.print() undefined
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Maniac wrote: Ian Hickson wrote: That's a use case for a new feature in CSS, not in HTML. :-) It is solvable with events discussed. My point is that authors traditionally use scripting to solve things that can't be solved with other means. It's normal. Granted. But the events assume a specific UI model which is not necessarily the UI model of the browser. In IE it's fine because in IE the people who invented the events know the UI model. But in the HTML5 spec we can't assume the UI model. -- Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Re: [whatwg] [html5] window.print() undefined
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Dimitri Glazkov wrote: However, I think am starting to see what you're seeing. Basically, your approach is to provide all content in the DOM tree and then flip switches as needed to present it to various media types. Right? Right. Essentially, you are creating all-in-one DOM tree, where all content co-exists in the same DOM space, then providing illusion of disparate DOM spaces by turning on/off parts of the tree as needed using CSS. In a way, you are using CSS to control representation of information, rather than just content presentation. I guess. I'm not sure I understand the difference. But what about the cases where content needs to be reordered or just plain needs to be slightly different? Is that still realm of CSS? Anything that is just changing the presentation without changing the semantics is the realm of CSS. Reordering certainly so. There are several lines of study in the CSSWG right now about reordering, in fact. -- Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Re: [whatwg] Display Issue with Web Applications 1.0 Working Draft
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Rob Mientjes wrote: On 7/19/05, Anne van Kesteren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm opposed to that. Separate sections in separate documents make reading the draft a pain. (I have argued otherwise in the past...) Agreed, but the code example is ridiculous. I opt for line breaks. Lots. Ok. I truncated the line. I guess it wasn't really that important anyway. -- Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Re: [whatwg] [WA1] Audio and relative URIs
Christian Biesinger wrote: http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#sound, says: The Audio() constructor takes a single argument, a URI (or IRI), which is resolved using the script context's window.location.href Does this mean that a possible base href should indeed be ignored here? I note that that's also an issue for other places in this specification, e.g. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#scripted-http smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [whatwg] WA1: meta attribute requirements
Ian Hickson: The difficulty is in walking the fine line between useful and over-constrained. For example, the fact that ol/ol is invalid in HTML4 is a real problem. Well, olliThis list item will be replaced by a script./ol is not invalid. An empty list doesn't make any sense otherwise, IMHO, so it's sensible to require at least one 'li' child. Actually I would have made some content models rather stricter than looser. I think both, hard-coded and script-generated markup¹, have to be valid. Of course the latter may be invalid during steps in the script's run, but not after it finishes. ¹ Or the markup infered from the script-altered DOM tree.
Re: [whatwg] [html5] window.print() undefined
Jim Ley wrote: This is flawed though, as it requires all the content to be in the page, including media-specific content. CSS cannot remove content, CSS is optional, consider: This page span id=viewedviewed/spanspan id=printedprinted/span on ... This is a contrived example of how people want web-applications to have media specific content - printed media particularly, although it would also apply to web applications deployed over interactive voice systems, but it shows how relying on optional methods to change content is simply flawed. I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree that events related to UA printing of the web document is the answer. For instance, such events could be combined with AJAX to force people into a pay-to-print scenario. There's just to much potential there for the web developer to control the user, and even if you considered that a valid thing to do, the user could simply create a Firefox fork or extension to circumvent it. There are two far better options. The first option is the one Mapquest and other sites use: provide a link to a printable version of the page. It's not ideal for all cases, but it probably satisfies most of the use cases where CSS isn't an option. The second is to allow the document object to be cloned, to allow operations to be performed on the clone, and then to allow printing from the clone. This allows specialized printing without tampering with the user's ability to do basic page printing. In my opinion, we should just have people do the former until we have interfaces for the latter.
Re: [whatwg] [html5] onbeforeprint/onafterprint (was window.print() undefined)
Matthew Raymond wrote: For instance, such events could be combined with AJAX to force people into a pay-to-print scenario. What's wrong with paying to print a high quality version of an image? If you ask me this is a great example of why we should allow these events. -dean
Re: [whatwg] Suggesting a 'transpose' Attribute for Tables
Christoph Päper wrote:
both table models, HTML and CSS, are row-centric, i.e. sequential data
is shown horizontally. Sometimes the opposite is desired. Therefore I
wonder if it was feasible to add a boolean 'transpose' attribute to
the 'table' element type? With it set, a table would be rendered
column-progressive despite 'tr' meaning table row; it includes the
row-groups ('thead', 'tfoot' and 'tbody'). Actually I am not sure
whether it is not too presentational and thus would better be done in CSS.
Wouldn't this be possible using display in CSS instead?
Obviously, it would be possible for the UA to offer a transpose
feature. Not sure if we need it for HTML. Is there even a use case for this?
Re: [whatwg] [html5] onbeforeprint/onafterprint (was window.print() undefined)
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Jim Ley wrote: Someone will probably suggest CSS background-images as a suitable for this aswell, yet again ignoring the fact that CSS is _optional_, and content-images must not be in background images as they simply won't be seen without CSS or if background images are disabled. Er.. script is (in practice) at least as optional as CSS since more people actually disable script than use alternate stylesheets. Also, I'd guess one could meet this use case with print-only CSS generated content of some form or another so background-image is irrelevant (but I haven't checked that in detail). Having said all that, I have no particular feeling one way or another about onbeforeprint. On the one hand I expect more people to 'get it' than some CSS based solution (plus it already works), on the other it has some theoretical issues and seems quite ugly.
Re: [whatwg] [html5] onbeforeprint/onafterprint (was window.print() undefined)
On 7/19/05, J. Graham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Jim Ley wrote: Someone will probably suggest CSS background-images as a suitable for this aswell, yet again ignoring the fact that CSS is _optional_, and content-images must not be in background images as they simply won't be seen without CSS or if background images are disabled. Er.. script is (in practice) at least as optional as CSS since more people actually disable script than use alternate stylesheets. Yes and no, we can only make these changes to the content with script so a script print solution is acceptable, for example in the above example the static non-scripted document would not have any of this media specific content in, it would only be added with script when appropriate, that way the media specific nature can be relied upon - the script is unobtrusive. CSS however is optional at the fine grained level. Jim.
Re: [whatwg] iso8601
On Tue, Jul 19, 2005 at 01:25:51 +, Ian Hickson wrote: http://www.whatwg.org/demos/date-01/ Which implements input type=datetime Doesn't conform to ISO 8601 of the datetime attribute in WF2. It doesn't need to. That's the fallback value. Don't quite understand this. How can it fall back onto ISO8601? In the input element is there a need for datetime, datetime-local, date, month, week and time, when a single ISO8601 string could perhaps do? How could a single one do? I was thinking that a ISO8601 string could store all these different datetime values. Months, week numbers etc. I wasn't thinking of them as different widget types. I was a bit confused about this value=DD/MM/ HH:MM. This must dictate how the form processor expects input. Though, couldn't the UA present a date picker based on this value attribute? ISO8601 support seems non-trivial. Though this could be a starting point: http://delete.me.uk/2005/03/iso8601.html ISO8601 support is not required; one is only required to support what the WF2 spec says. I thought that the UA would have to feed the ISO8601 time to the form processor. http://whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#extensions Best wishes,
Re: [whatwg] [html5] contenteditable specification
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Anne van Kesteren wrote: http://annevankesteren.nl/projects/whatwg/spec Overall the main problem with this spec is the lack of the use of RFC2119 normative words. For example: |The contentEditable applies to all elements with some exceptions: It |does not apply to table elements, the html element and descendants of |the head element and the head element itself. It is expected that a |future revision of this draft includes support for editable tables. This section says nothing normative, and is therefore, in theory, merely describing the result of applying all the user agent normative conformance criteria. However, the relevant conformance criteria is the next sentence: |If an HTML element has a contentEditable attribute set to exactly the |literal value true, or if its nearest ancestor with the |contentEditable attribute set has its attribute set to exactly the |literal value true, then the UA must treat the element as editable (as |described below). ...which does not have any exceptions and therefore applies to any HTML element, including all those that the first paragraph said the attribute didn't apply to. Another general comment is you're missing some sort of processing model section. Your spec goes straight from here's what an editing host is to and if you hit enter then it does this, without explaining that clicking an editing host might focus it, or that there is a current cursor position in it, or that the cursor can be in a text node. It doesn't say if you can put a cursor in between two blocks, it doesn't say whether an empty block can have a cursor, etc. These seem like quite important things. As an implementor, looking at this spec, I'd have no idea what to do. |Creating a line-break inside an editing host must result in the |generation of a br element on the current cursor position. What does must result in the generation of a br element on the current cursor position mean? I would rephrase the first two paragraphs of that section with (RFC2119 terms are capitalised here so you can see them clearly): User agents SHOULD allow users to enter line breaks in editing hosts. The exact interface for this is implementation dependent. When the user requests a line break, the user agent MUST insert a br element at the current cursor position. This is simpler, and more to the point, while having exactly the same normative content. In non-normative prose like your first sentence here, there's no point being as detailed as you are regarding events. Just saying In most UAs this will happen when the user hits Shift+Enter is ok, since it's non-normative anyway. Having said that, maybe we should specify (normatively) that it must happen as the default action of the keydown event (or whatever event it is), when the target is the editing host, or some such. |When the editing host contains only inline level elements or p |elements creating a block-break will result in the generation of |a p element containing the entity nbsp;. If the text nodes and |or inline level elements inside the editing host were not yet |contained inside a p element the editor must wrap a p element |around them so that there are at least two sibling p elements |inside the editable parent element. The first sentence here (the key sentence) has no normative criteria (no must, just a will). I also don't really understand it. An element is generated (what does that mean?) but nothing is done with it. Is it supposed to be inserted somewhere? Does the new paragraph contain an entity reference node, or does it contain an actual U+00A0 character? There is no such concept as nbsp entity in the DOM. How does the wrapping work? What if you have something like: div contentEditable emAAA/em pBBB/p CCC /div ...and you put the cursor in the As and ask the UA to create a new block break, what happens? (If I interpret your text literally, then a new p element containing an entity reference node called nbsp will be generated (but not inserted into the document anywhere, so it doesn't matter that it was generated), then the em and CCC nodes will be wrapped in a p, giving us: div contentEditable p emAAA/em pBBB/p CCC /p /div ...but there are still no two sibling p elements so presumably that's not what you meant.) What about if the cursor is in the BBB or CCC text? What if it is after the em element before the p? |In addition, when the editing host contains inline level elements |these must be duplicated inside the newly generated p elements |when creating a block-break happens before the last white-space |node or text node in the element. The a element must not be |duplicated. I have no idea what this means. How do you duplicate a node? Which inlines are duplicated? What's the difference between a white-space node and a text node? |When the editing
