[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T139571: add title attribute to non-custom-value signifier
Jan_Dittrich added a comment. Fine with me.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T139571EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: Jan_DittrichCc: Izno, Lydia_Pintscher, Zppix, Aklapper, Incabell, Jan_Dittrich, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, JGirault, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T139571: add title attribute to non-custom-value signifier
Lydia_Pintscher added a comment. Latest iteration: No Value: "The community believes, based on the reference, that this property does not have a value for this entity." Unknown value: "The community believes, based on the reference, that this property does have a value for this entity, but it is not know (yet)."TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T139571EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: Lydia_PintscherCc: Izno, Lydia_Pintscher, Zppix, Aklapper, Incabell, Jan_Dittrich, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, JGirault, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T139571: add title attribute to non-custom-value signifier
Izno added a comment. In T139571#2716293, @Lydia_Pintscher wrote: Ok then we are at the following? No Value: "The community believes, based on the reference, that this property does not have a value for this entity." Unknown value: "It is assumed that this value exists, but we don't know it." I was doing it once for no value and then I assumed you would pick up on using the same general text for unknown value. In T139571#2715495, @Jan_Dittrich wrote: But plainly, someone at some point added the statement... This makes sense to me as a case against the passive sentence. Since that someone was an editor, "An editor believes" would match; While "the community" allows an grammatically active sentence construct, it seems to ma as nondescript as the passive construction. Right, but does it really matter that an editor added it? Generally the UI design for the MediaWiki suites tends away from pointing that out (though I can think of some exceptions e.g. "last edited by X on Y date" here and there"). Passive is slightly better in the case where you and I don't really matter having added a claim. The community at large also has to believe the statement is true (verifiable, rather?), else another editor would remove the statement. I'm not picky about this, just bringing it to attention. Of course, there may be no explicit sourcing on the item (or it may be in the form of External IDs rather than the reference statements), so maybe that takes us the wrong direction. Yes – I like the idea of emphasizing sources, however, it would basically state that we always have sources for it, even if the user can not see them :) Yes, that doesn't help much. :DTASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T139571EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: IznoCc: Izno, Lydia_Pintscher, Zppix, Aklapper, Incabell, Jan_Dittrich, D3r1ck01, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T139571: add title attribute to non-custom-value signifier
Lydia_Pintscher added a comment. Ok then we are at the following? No Value: "The community believes, based on the reference, that this property does not have a value for this entity." Unknown value: "It is assumed that this value exists, but we don't know it."TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T139571EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: Lydia_PintscherCc: Izno, Lydia_Pintscher, Zppix, Aklapper, Incabell, Jan_Dittrich, D3r1ck01, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T139571: add title attribute to non-custom-value signifier
Jan_Dittrich added a comment. But plainly, someone at some point added the statement... This makes sense to me as a case against the passive sentence. Since that someone was an editor, "An editor believes" would match; While "the community" allows an grammatically active sentence construct, it seems to ma as nondescript as the passive construction.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T139571EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: Jan_DittrichCc: Izno, Lydia_Pintscher, Zppix, Aklapper, Incabell, Jan_Dittrich, D3r1ck01, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T139571: add title attribute to non-custom-value signifier
Izno added a comment. "An editor believes"--but it may be many editors in agreement about "no value". "The community believes that this property does not have a value for this entity." I think it would be good to work in something about sourcing in that case, so maybe, "The community believes, based on the sources [not sure how to phrase that], that this property does not have a value for this entity." Of course, there may be no explicit sourcing on the item (or it may be in the form of External IDs rather than the reference statements), so maybe that takes us the wrong direction. And that may be too verbose. :DTASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T139571EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: IznoCc: Izno, Lydia_Pintscher, Zppix, Aklapper, Incabell, Jan_Dittrich, D3r1ck01, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T139571: add title attribute to non-custom-value signifier
Lydia_Pintscher added a comment. @Izno good points. Can you make a suggestion even if you can't fix the last one?TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T139571EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: Lydia_PintscherCc: Izno, Lydia_Pintscher, Zppix, Aklapper, Incabell, Jan_Dittrich, D3r1ck01, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T139571: add title attribute to non-custom-value signifier
Izno added a comment.
In T139571#2712371, @Lydia_Pintscher wrote:
Sounds good. Typo fix:
No Value: "It is assumed that this value can't exists"
Unknown value: "It is assumed that this value exists, but we don't know it"
One minor, one major problem:
Minor: typo in No Value with "can't exists" <- trim the s. "can't" also isn't formal English--"can not" is correct.
Major: Assumed is probably a bad phrase, since nothing in Wikidata should be assumed. It should be believed based on some data in some source. So that is probably better "believed" rather than "assumed".
Major: "No value" is more like "we have stated positively that we believe this property does not have a value"; "unknown value" is more like "we have stated positively that we believe this property has a value, but we don't know what that value is".
Major: The passive voice ("it is believed") irks me as well. Who is doing the assuming? If there is no-one, or the someone is unimportant, that is a correct statement. But plainly, someone at some point added the statement...
I'm not sure how to fix the last problem. IMO I think we can be more verbose in the title attribute than as the original suggestions.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T139571EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: IznoCc: Izno, Lydia_Pintscher, Zppix, Aklapper, Incabell, Jan_Dittrich, D3r1ck01, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T139571: add title attribute to non-custom-value signifier
Lydia_Pintscher added a comment. Sounds good. Typo fix: No Value: "It is assumed that this value can't exists" Unknown value: "It is assumed that this value exists, but we don't know it"TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T139571EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: Lydia_PintscherCc: Lydia_Pintscher, Zppix, Aklapper, Incabell, Jan_Dittrich, D3r1ck01, Izno, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T139571: add title attribute to non-custom-value signifier
Jan_Dittrich added a comment. No Value: "It is assumed that this value can't exists" Unknown value: "It is assumed that this value exists, we we don't know it"TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T139571EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: Jan_DittrichCc: Lydia_Pintscher, Zppix, Aklapper, Incabell, Jan_Dittrich, D3r1ck01, Izno, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
