[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[Bugreporter]

Bugreporter added a comment.


  See 
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump/Proposals/Archive/2018/01#Proposal_to_rename_account_creator_group_to_batch_uploaders

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To: Bugreporter
Cc: abian, MarcoAurelio, Urbanecm, ItamarWMDE, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, 
Hazard-SJ, pywikibot-bugs-list, Multichill, Rschen7754, Pasleim, 
matej_suchanek, tfmorris, Ladsgroup, Mike_Peel, Mohammed_Sadat_WMDE, 
Dipsacus_fullonum, Bugreporter, MisterSynergy, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, 
Lydia_Pintscher, JohnsonLee01, SHEKH, Dijkstra, Alter-paule, Beast1978, Un1tY, 
Khutuck, Akuckartz, Zkhalido, Hook696, Iflorez, darthmon_wmde, Kent7301, 
alaa_wmde, joker88john, Viztor, CucyNoiD, Nandana, Wenyi, Gaboe420, 
Giuliamocci, Cpaulf30, Lahi, Gq86, Af420, Bsandipan, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, Tbscho, MayS, LawExplorer, Lewizho99, Mdupont, JJMC89, Maathavan, 
Dvorapa, _jensen, rosalieper, Altostratus, Avicennasis, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[abian]

abian added a comment.


  I like this solution. The only right provided by the flag of account creator 
is `noratelimit`, and right now no user account has this flag, so we can freely 
change the group/flag name with MediaWiki:Group-accountcreator 
 and 
MediaWiki:Group-accountcreator-member 
 to fit 
its future purpose on Wikidata.
  
  What should this group/flag be called? //Superbot//? Something more creative? 
Ideally, the name shouldn't suggest that it's redundant with the bot 
group/flag, but additional.

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To: abian
Cc: abian, MarcoAurelio, Urbanecm, ItamarWMDE, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, 
Hazard-SJ, pywikibot-bugs-list, Multichill, Rschen7754, Pasleim, 
matej_suchanek, tfmorris, Ladsgroup, Mike_Peel, Mohammed_Sadat_WMDE, 
Dipsacus_fullonum, Bugreporter, MisterSynergy, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, 
Lydia_Pintscher, JohnsonLee01, SHEKH, Dijkstra, Alter-paule, Beast1978, Un1tY, 
Khutuck, Akuckartz, Zkhalido, Hook696, Iflorez, darthmon_wmde, Kent7301, 
alaa_wmde, joker88john, Viztor, CucyNoiD, Nandana, Wenyi, Gaboe420, 
Giuliamocci, Cpaulf30, Lahi, Gq86, Af420, Bsandipan, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, Tbscho, MayS, LawExplorer, Lewizho99, Mdupont, JJMC89, Maathavan, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[matej_suchanek]

matej_suchanek added a comment.


  I still find a bit ridiculous that fast //editing// bots will be in a group 
for //account creators//...

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To: matej_suchanek
Cc: MarcoAurelio, Urbanecm, ItamarWMDE, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Hazard-SJ, 
pywikibot-bugs-list, Multichill, Rschen7754, Pasleim, matej_suchanek, tfmorris, 
Ladsgroup, Mike_Peel, Mohammed_Sadat_WMDE, Dipsacus_fullonum, Bugreporter, 
MisterSynergy, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Lydia_Pintscher, JohnsonLee01, 
SHEKH, Dijkstra, Alter-paule, Beast1978, Un1tY, Khutuck, Akuckartz, Zkhalido, 
Hook696, Iflorez, darthmon_wmde, Kent7301, alaa_wmde, joker88john, Viztor, 
CucyNoiD, Nandana, Wenyi, Gaboe420, Giuliamocci, Cpaulf30, Lahi, Gq86, Af420, 
Bsandipan, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, Tbscho, MayS, LawExplorer, Lewizho99, 
Mdupont, JJMC89, Maathavan, Dvorapa, _jensen, rosalieper, Altostratus, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[Lydia_Pintscher]

Lydia_Pintscher updated the task description.

TASK DETAIL
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To: Lydia_Pintscher
Cc: MarcoAurelio, Urbanecm, ItamarWMDE, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Hazard-SJ, 
pywikibot-bugs-list, Multichill, Rschen7754, Pasleim, matej_suchanek, tfmorris, 
Ladsgroup, Mike_Peel, Mohammed_Sadat_WMDE, Dipsacus_fullonum, Bugreporter, 
MisterSynergy, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Lydia_Pintscher, JohnsonLee01, 
SHEKH, Dijkstra, Alter-paule, Beast1978, Un1tY, Khutuck, Akuckartz, Zkhalido, 
Hook696, Iflorez, darthmon_wmde, Kent7301, alaa_wmde, joker88john, Viztor, 
CucyNoiD, Nandana, Wenyi, Gaboe420, Giuliamocci, Cpaulf30, Lahi, Gq86, Af420, 
Bsandipan, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, Tbscho, MayS, LawExplorer, Lewizho99, 
Mdupont, JJMC89, Maathavan, Dvorapa, _jensen, rosalieper, Altostratus, 
Avicennasis, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, mys_721tx, Wikidata-bugs, aude, jayvdb, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[Lydia_Pintscher]

Lydia_Pintscher added a comment.


  In T258354#6501501 , 
@Ladsgroup wrote:
  
  > In T258354#6497417 , 
@Lydia_Pintscher wrote:
  >
  >> So that leaves the suggestion to remove noratelimit from all bots and add 
accounts that require noratelimit to "accountcreator" group. @Ladsgroup: Would 
this work?
  >
  > Definitely.
  
  Ok then let's do this. I'll adapt the ticket accordingly.

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To: Lydia_Pintscher
Cc: MarcoAurelio, Urbanecm, ItamarWMDE, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Hazard-SJ, 
pywikibot-bugs-list, Multichill, Rschen7754, Pasleim, matej_suchanek, tfmorris, 
Ladsgroup, Mike_Peel, Mohammed_Sadat_WMDE, Dipsacus_fullonum, Bugreporter, 
MisterSynergy, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Lydia_Pintscher, JohnsonLee01, 
SHEKH, Dijkstra, Alter-paule, Beast1978, Un1tY, Khutuck, Akuckartz, Zkhalido, 
Hook696, Iflorez, darthmon_wmde, Kent7301, alaa_wmde, joker88john, Viztor, 
CucyNoiD, Nandana, Wenyi, Gaboe420, Giuliamocci, Cpaulf30, Lahi, Gq86, Af420, 
Bsandipan, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, Tbscho, MayS, LawExplorer, Lewizho99, 
Mdupont, JJMC89, Maathavan, Dvorapa, _jensen, rosalieper, Altostratus, 
Avicennasis, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, mys_721tx, Wikidata-bugs, aude, jayvdb, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[Ladsgroup]

Ladsgroup added a comment.


  In T258354#6499293 , 
@Multichill wrote:
  
  > Ok, I see, we only put misbehaving bots in this group.
  
  I think the proposal is the other way around, we add important bots that 
needs bypassing ratelimit to accountcreator group (like massmessage)
  
  I assume we could define a higher ratelimit for bots in general but not too 
high.

TASK DETAIL
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To: Ladsgroup
Cc: MarcoAurelio, Urbanecm, ItamarWMDE, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Hazard-SJ, 
pywikibot-bugs-list, Multichill, Rschen7754, Pasleim, matej_suchanek, tfmorris, 
Ladsgroup, Mike_Peel, Mohammed_Sadat_WMDE, Dipsacus_fullonum, Bugreporter, 
MisterSynergy, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Lydia_Pintscher, JohnsonLee01, 
SHEKH, Dijkstra, Alter-paule, Beast1978, Un1tY, Khutuck, Akuckartz, Zkhalido, 
Hook696, Iflorez, darthmon_wmde, Kent7301, alaa_wmde, joker88john, Viztor, 
CucyNoiD, Nandana, Wenyi, Gaboe420, Giuliamocci, Cpaulf30, Lahi, Gq86, Af420, 
Bsandipan, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, Tbscho, MayS, LawExplorer, Lewizho99, 
Mdupont, JJMC89, Maathavan, Dvorapa, _jensen, rosalieper, Altostratus, 
Avicennasis, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, mys_721tx, Wikidata-bugs, aude, jayvdb, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[Ladsgroup]

Ladsgroup added a comment.


  In T258354#6497417 , 
@Lydia_Pintscher wrote:
  
  > So that leaves the suggestion to remove noratelimit from all bots and add 
accounts that require noratelimit to "accountcreator" group. @Ladsgroup: Would 
this work?
  
  Definitely.

TASK DETAIL
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To: Ladsgroup
Cc: MarcoAurelio, Urbanecm, ItamarWMDE, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Hazard-SJ, 
pywikibot-bugs-list, Multichill, Rschen7754, Pasleim, matej_suchanek, tfmorris, 
Ladsgroup, Mike_Peel, Mohammed_Sadat_WMDE, Dipsacus_fullonum, Bugreporter, 
MisterSynergy, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Lydia_Pintscher, JohnsonLee01, 
SHEKH, Dijkstra, Alter-paule, Beast1978, Un1tY, Khutuck, Akuckartz, Zkhalido, 
Hook696, Iflorez, darthmon_wmde, Kent7301, alaa_wmde, joker88john, Viztor, 
CucyNoiD, Nandana, Wenyi, Gaboe420, Giuliamocci, Cpaulf30, Lahi, Gq86, Af420, 
Bsandipan, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, Tbscho, MayS, LawExplorer, Lewizho99, 
Mdupont, JJMC89, Maathavan, Dvorapa, _jensen, rosalieper, Altostratus, 
Avicennasis, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, mys_721tx, Wikidata-bugs, aude, jayvdb, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[Multichill]

Multichill added a comment.


  Ok, I see, we only put misbehaving bots in this group.

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To: Multichill
Cc: MarcoAurelio, Urbanecm, ItamarWMDE, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Hazard-SJ, 
pywikibot-bugs-list, Multichill, Rschen7754, Pasleim, matej_suchanek, tfmorris, 
Ladsgroup, Mike_Peel, Mohammed_Sadat_WMDE, Dipsacus_fullonum, Bugreporter, 
MisterSynergy, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Lydia_Pintscher, JohnsonLee01, 
SHEKH, Dijkstra, Alter-paule, Beast1978, Un1tY, Khutuck, Akuckartz, Zkhalido, 
Hook696, Iflorez, darthmon_wmde, Kent7301, alaa_wmde, joker88john, Viztor, 
CucyNoiD, Nandana, Wenyi, Gaboe420, Giuliamocci, Cpaulf30, Lahi, Gq86, Af420, 
Bsandipan, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, Tbscho, MayS, LawExplorer, Lewizho99, 
Mdupont, JJMC89, Maathavan, Dvorapa, _jensen, rosalieper, Altostratus, 
Avicennasis, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, mys_721tx, Wikidata-bugs, aude, jayvdb, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[Lydia_Pintscher]

Lydia_Pintscher added a comment.


  Ok so here's where we're at:
  
  - asking bots to be nice: This has happened. It's playing whack-a-mole. 
Admins who care are rightfully upset that this is not a workable solution and 
we've had complaints asking to not make this a whack-a-mole game anymore. It's 
also not fair to the people who are actually trying to be good citizens and 
abite by the rules just to then be outrun by people who don't care or know what 
they're doing. This is not an acceptable state for me.
  - just removing noratelimit from the existing bot group: that's been done in 
the past and caused bad side-effects with extensions that actually require it 
like MassMessage and Nuke (?).
  - adding the new bot group: I think it'd have been an elegant solution as it 
gives control to the admins on-wiki but apparently not :D
  
  So that leaves the suggestion to remove noratelimit from all bots and add 
accounts that require noratelimit to "accountcreator" group. @Ladsgroup: Would 
this work?

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To: Lydia_Pintscher
Cc: MarcoAurelio, Urbanecm, ItamarWMDE, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Hazard-SJ, 
pywikibot-bugs-list, Multichill, Rschen7754, Pasleim, matej_suchanek, tfmorris, 
Ladsgroup, Mike_Peel, Mohammed_Sadat_WMDE, Dipsacus_fullonum, Bugreporter, 
MisterSynergy, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Lydia_Pintscher, JohnsonLee01, 
SHEKH, Dijkstra, Alter-paule, Beast1978, Un1tY, Khutuck, Akuckartz, Zkhalido, 
Hook696, Iflorez, darthmon_wmde, Kent7301, alaa_wmde, joker88john, Viztor, 
CucyNoiD, Nandana, Wenyi, Gaboe420, Giuliamocci, Cpaulf30, Lahi, Gq86, Af420, 
Bsandipan, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, Tbscho, MayS, LawExplorer, Lewizho99, 
Mdupont, JJMC89, Maathavan, Dvorapa, _jensen, rosalieper, Altostratus, 
Avicennasis, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, mys_721tx, Wikidata-bugs, aude, jayvdb, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[MarcoAurelio]

MarcoAurelio added a comment.


  Instead of a new user group, a better solution would be to remove, for the 
Wikidata bot group, the `noratelimit` permission and adjust in {src rOMWC 
:wmf-config/InitialiseSettings.php}
 an acceptable rate limit for all bots if needed. Currently non-autoconfirmed 
users gets 8 edits per minute, while autoconfirmed gets 90 edits per minute. 90 
edits/minute. Should be an acceptable limit, and just requires a simple config 
patch instead of (a) create a new group and (b) move accounts between groups.

TASK DETAIL
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To: MarcoAurelio
Cc: MarcoAurelio, Urbanecm, ItamarWMDE, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Hazard-SJ, 
pywikibot-bugs-list, Multichill, Rschen7754, Pasleim, matej_suchanek, tfmorris, 
Ladsgroup, Mike_Peel, Mohammed_Sadat_WMDE, Dipsacus_fullonum, Bugreporter, 
MisterSynergy, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Lydia_Pintscher, JohnsonLee01, 
SHEKH, Dijkstra, Alter-paule, Beast1978, Un1tY, Khutuck, Akuckartz, Zkhalido, 
Hook696, Iflorez, darthmon_wmde, Kent7301, alaa_wmde, joker88john, Viztor, 
CucyNoiD, Nandana, Wenyi, Gaboe420, Giuliamocci, Cpaulf30, Lahi, Gq86, Af420, 
Bsandipan, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, Tbscho, MayS, LawExplorer, Lewizho99, 
Mdupont, JJMC89, Maathavan, Dvorapa, _jensen, rosalieper, Altostratus, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[Urbanecm]

Urbanecm added a comment.


  In T258354#6317977 , 
@Bugreporter wrote:
  
  > I instead think we should:
  >
  > - Remove noratelimit from all bots
  > - Add accounts that require noratelimit to "accountcreator" group
  
  I do strongly agree with this, as this would avoid the burden of re-assigning 
bots from a group to a group, and also i feel this is systematicaly better 
solution.
  
  In T258354#6317978 , 
@Bugreporter wrote:
  
  > Before this we should:
  >
  > - Find all bots that edits more than 90/minute
  > - Communiate to them
  
  +1

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pywikibot-bugs-list, Multichill, Rschen7754, Pasleim, matej_suchanek, tfmorris, 
Ladsgroup, Mike_Peel, Mohammed_Sadat_WMDE, Dipsacus_fullonum, Bugreporter, 
MisterSynergy, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Lydia_Pintscher, JohnsonLee01, 
SHEKH, Dijkstra, Alter-paule, Beast1978, Un1tY, Khutuck, Akuckartz, Zkhalido, 
Hook696, Iflorez, darthmon_wmde, Kent7301, alaa_wmde, joker88john, Viztor, 
CucyNoiD, Nandana, Wenyi, Gaboe420, Giuliamocci, Cpaulf30, Lahi, Gq86, Af420, 
Bsandipan, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, Tbscho, MayS, LawExplorer, Lewizho99, 
Mdupont, JJMC89, Maathavan, Dvorapa, _jensen, rosalieper, Altostratus, 
Avicennasis, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, mys_721tx, Wikidata-bugs, aude, jayvdb, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[ItamarWMDE]

ItamarWMDE added a comment.


  Awaiting announcement

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To: ItamarWMDE
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Multichill, Rschen7754, Pasleim, matej_suchanek, tfmorris, Ladsgroup, 
Mike_Peel, Mohammed_Sadat_WMDE, Dipsacus_fullonum, Bugreporter, MisterSynergy, 
Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Lydia_Pintscher, JohnsonLee01, SHEKH, Dijkstra, 
Alter-paule, Beast1978, Un1tY, Khutuck, Akuckartz, Zkhalido, Hook696, Iflorez, 
darthmon_wmde, Kent7301, alaa_wmde, joker88john, Viztor, CucyNoiD, Nandana, 
Wenyi, Gaboe420, Giuliamocci, Cpaulf30, Lahi, Gq86, Af420, Bsandipan, 
GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, Tbscho, MayS, LawExplorer, Lewizho99, Mdupont, 
JJMC89, Maathavan, Dvorapa, _jensen, rosalieper, Altostratus, Avicennasis, 
Scott_WUaS, Jonas, mys_721tx, Wikidata-bugs, aude, jayvdb, Ricordisamoa, Masti, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[WMDE-leszek]

WMDE-leszek updated the task description.

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Rschen7754, Pasleim, matej_suchanek, tfmorris, Ladsgroup, Mike_Peel, 
Mohammed_Sadat_WMDE, Dipsacus_fullonum, Bugreporter, MisterSynergy, 
Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Lydia_Pintscher, JohnsonLee01, SHEKH, Dijkstra, 
Alter-paule, Beast1978, Un1tY, Khutuck, Akuckartz, Zkhalido, Hook696, Iflorez, 
darthmon_wmde, Kent7301, alaa_wmde, joker88john, Viztor, CucyNoiD, Nandana, 
Wenyi, Gaboe420, Giuliamocci, Cpaulf30, Lahi, Gq86, Af420, Bsandipan, 
GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, Tbscho, MayS, LawExplorer, Lewizho99, Mdupont, 
JJMC89, Maathavan, Dvorapa, _jensen, rosalieper, Altostratus, Avicennasis, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[Ladsgroup]

Ladsgroup added a comment.


  In T258354#6365968 , 
@Bugreporter wrote:
  
  > When it is created and current bots moved to new group it would be a 
breaking change.
  
  
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Stable_Interface_Policy#Notification_Policy
  
  > Changes to non-stable interfaces may not be announced, even if they are 
breaking changes.
  
  And these changes does not fall under any stable interface.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[Ladsgroup]

Ladsgroup added a comment.


  Help me understand your proposal better. Sorry if I miss anything obvious. 
Bots and sysops have "noratelimit" right attached to their user rights groups. 
We can either have another bots right group that doesn't have the "noratelimit" 
right or apply a forced ratelimit to the current bot group (which has 
noratelimit right attached to it). The former is this ticket, the latter is the 
other. What is the third option here? Stripping bots group out of its 
noratelimit right?

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[Multichill]

Multichill added a comment.


  In T258354#6387030 , 
@Ladsgroup wrote:
  
  > In T258354#6365838 , 
@Multichill wrote:
  >
  >> Just add a sane (relatively high) ratelimit to the current bots group or 
keep it as is. The current proposed solution is to try to work around the 
problem.
  >
  > Well, that was exactly what we did in T184948: limit page creation and edit 
rate on Wikidata  and you disagreed 
with it (T184948#4145480 )
  
  No, that's not what you did. You added a ratelimit to a group which had the 
"noratelimit" right assigned to it causing all sorts of breakage.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[Ladsgroup]

Ladsgroup added a comment.


  In T258354#6365838 , 
@Multichill wrote:
  
  > Just add a sane (relatively high) ratelimit to the current bots group or 
keep it as is. The current proposed solution is to try to work around the 
problem.
  
  Well, that was exactly what we did in T184948: limit page creation and edit 
rate on Wikidata  and you disagreed 
with it (T184948#4145480 )

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[Bugreporter]

Bugreporter added a comment.


  When it is created and current bots moved to new group it would be a breaking 
change.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[Multichill]

Multichill added projects: Pywikibot-Wikidata, Pywikibot.
Restricted Application added a subscriber: pywikibot-bugs-list.

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tfmorris, Ladsgroup, Mike_Peel, Mohammed_Sadat_WMDE, Dipsacus_fullonum, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[Multichill]

Multichill added a comment.


  I think the approach is wrong. Let's start with the first assumption. Nuke ( 
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:Nuke ) runs under your own account. Used 
it plenty of times. As an admin I have noratelimit so having noratelimit on a 
completely different group is not relevant. MassMessage is just an extension 
that runs in the background. It is a bot. It shouldn't go too fast and it 
shouldn't crash on ratelimits. Relevant historic bugs: T192690 
 and T184948 
 .
  
  Just add a sane (relatively high) ratelimit to the current bots group or keep 
it as is. The current proposed solution is to try to work around the problem.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[Lydia_Pintscher]

Lydia_Pintscher added a comment.


  ANswers for remaining questions: Let's call it "Slow bots" and announce it 
before creation. I can write something up. Let's coordinate on IRC for a date.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[gerritbot]

gerritbot added a project: Patch-For-Review.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[gerritbot]

gerritbot added a comment.


  Change 618245 had a related patch set uploaded (by Tobias Andersson; owner: 
Tobias Andersson):
  [operations/mediawiki-config@master] DNM WIP: add new limited bot group
  
  https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/618245

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[Lydia_Pintscher]

Lydia_Pintscher added a comment.


  In T258354#6317977 , 
@Bugreporter wrote:
  
  > I instead think we should:
  >
  > - Remove noratelimit from all bots
  > - Add accounts that require noratelimit to "accountcreator" group
  
  We discussed it just now and unfortunately this will break mass message at 
least so is not an option :(

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[Addshore]

Addshore moved this task from Prioritized Product to 
Wikidata-Campsite-Iteration-∞ on the Wikidata-Campsite board.
Addshore edited projects, added Wikidata-Campsite 
(Wikidata-Campsite-Iteration-∞); removed Wikidata-Campsite.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[Addshore]

Addshore updated the task description.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[Addshore]

Addshore updated the task description.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[Lydia_Pintscher]

Lydia_Pintscher updated the task description.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[matej_suchanek]

matej_suchanek added a comment.


  +1 to what @MisterSynergy said.
  
  > What would happen if a bot reached a rate limit?
  
  I believe they will be receiving an error message with `ratelimited` until 
they have waited enough time. Whether the bot crashes or waits depends on the 
used framework.
  
  > Add accounts that require noratelimit to "accountcreator" group
  
  Quite odd solution.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[Mike_Peel]

Mike_Peel added a comment.


  What would happen if a bot reached a rate limit? Would its edits just be 
delayed, the same as what happens currently when maxlag is reached, or would 
the edits be dropped/result in an error message? Hopefully it would be the 
former.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[MisterSynergy]

MisterSynergy added a comment.


  Regarding the proposed solution:
  
  - "flooders" should be treated the same as bots
  - I would like to see a way to limit all other unlimited users' edit rates as 
well (sysops, apparently global rollbackers, ...). When I use my sysop account 
with QuickStatements and run a single batch, it can easily go up to 400 or 500 
edits per minute and there is no possibility for me to slow down. Not fair for 
all users without such elevated rights.
  
  It needs a thorough assessment which functionality categorically needs to be 
unlimited (mass message, nuke?, ...). Potential users of these functionality 
should be able to temporarily add no-ratelimit to their accounts *for the 
purpose of using these functions only*, and should remove it thereafter.

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T258354

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To: MisterSynergy
Cc: Mohammed_Sadat_WMDE, Dipsacus_fullonum, Bugreporter, MisterSynergy, 
Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Lydia_Pintscher, Akuckartz, darthmon_wmde, Nandana, 
Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, 
Scott_WUaS, Jonas, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[MisterSynergy]

MisterSynergy added a comment.


  In T258354#6317978 , 
@Bugreporter wrote:
  
  > Before this we should:
  >
  > - Find all bots that edits more than 90/minute
  > - Communiate to them
  
  I am already monitoring user edit rates occasionally with a custom Python 
script 
 
that reads the Wikimedia RC stream, and I have contacted several bot operators 
regarding their edit rates when I saw excessively high values. I wasn't 
particularly successful, I have to admit.
  
  Unfortunately the situation with maxlag>5 for considerable fractions of a day 
due to the WDQS bottleneck has brought us to a situation where there is sort of 
a competition for as many editing resources as possible among bot operators. As 
long as there is neither a policy enforcing a limit nor a hard technical limit, 
the greediest operator will simply win this competition. There are already 
quite some bot operators who challenge the Wikidata bot policy by editing up to 
maxlag=6 or even 7, as they probably think that nobody will notice.
  
  We also have to remember that exact throttling to a targeted edit rate is not 
simple at all. Some tools such as QuickStatements do not allow to control the 
edit rate at all and they just hammer as many edits as possible to the servers, 
particularly for users that are not rate limited; quite some bot operators 
simply use a framework such as Pywikibot and might not be overly proficient 
when it comes to throttling (although pywikibot in particular does not create 
that many issues I think); and finally, it is quite difficult to monitor the 
own edit rate at all, and to realize that one causes issues.
  
  I'm afraid I have to say that I do not see a chance for a fair distribution 
of our limited edit resources among users and bot operators as long as we do 
not have a hard technical edit rate limit.

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T258354

EMAIL PREFERENCES
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To: MisterSynergy
Cc: Mohammed_Sadat_WMDE, Dipsacus_fullonum, Bugreporter, MisterSynergy, 
Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Lydia_Pintscher, Akuckartz, darthmon_wmde, Nandana, 
Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, 
Scott_WUaS, Jonas, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[Bugreporter]

Bugreporter added a comment.


  Before this we should:
  
  - Find all bots that edits more than 90/minute
  - Communiate to them

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T258354

EMAIL PREFERENCES
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To: Bugreporter
Cc: Bugreporter, MisterSynergy, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Lydia_Pintscher, 
Akuckartz, darthmon_wmde, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, 
LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, Wikidata-bugs, aude, 
Mbch331
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[Bugreporter]

Bugreporter added a comment.


  I instead think we should:
  
  - Remove noratelimit from all bots
  - Add accounts that requires noratelimit to "accountcreator" group

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T258354

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To: Bugreporter
Cc: Bugreporter, MisterSynergy, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Lydia_Pintscher, 
Akuckartz, darthmon_wmde, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, 
LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, Wikidata-bugs, aude, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[Lydia_Pintscher]

Lydia_Pintscher created this task.
Lydia_Pintscher added projects: Wikidata-Campsite, Wikidata.org, Wikidata.
Restricted Application added a subscriber: Aklapper.

TASK DESCRIPTION
  **Problem:**
  Currently bots are exempt from rate limits on Wikidata. This is needed for 
some tools like MassMessage and Nuke. However "normal" bots should have some 
sane limit on edit speed because otherwise the infrastructure suffers.
  
  **Proposed solution:**
  We create a second group on Wikidata for all the "normal" bots and give it a 
edit rate limit. Let's start with max 90 edits/minute and see how that goes. 
All other rights stay the same.
  
  **Acceptance criteria:**
  
  [ ] new group exists on Wikidata identical to the existing Bot group but 
without noratelimit and rate limit set to 90 edits/minute
  [ ] community can move accounts into the group as needed
  
  **Useful links:**
  
  - https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:ListGroupRights
  - 
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Contact_the_development_team#WDQS_lag_(June_24)

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T258354

WORKBOARD
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/project/board/3402/

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To: Lydia_Pintscher
Cc: MisterSynergy, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Lydia_Pintscher, Akuckartz, 
darthmon_wmde, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, 
_jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T258354: create new rate-limited bot group for Wikidata

[Lydia_Pintscher]

Lydia_Pintscher triaged this task as "High" priority.

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T258354

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To: Lydia_Pintscher
Cc: MisterSynergy, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Lydia_Pintscher, Akuckartz, 
darthmon_wmde, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, 
_jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331
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