Re: [Wikidata-l] watching Wikidata changes that affect my wiki
2012/8/14 Nikola Smolenski smole...@eunet.rs: I believe it should be possible to alleviate this problem to an extent by introducing automatic transcription between languages and specifying what language the mayor's default name is in. If automatic transcription gets it wrong, it could still be overriden when someone enters the name in another language. It is guaranteed to be profoundly broken. The above-mentioned Hebrew names will be transliterated as 'mrm mcn' (the apostrophes are part of the transliteration!) and ywnh yhb. The same problem applies to Arabic, Punjabi and many other languages. Without manual maintenance it will perpetuate horrendously wrong transliteration. Some very limited auto-transliteration is OK, but just as a suggestion. I was actually going to write an email about that. But it must not be automatic all the way and propagate to all wikis. -- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] watching Wikidata changes that affect my wiki
2012/8/14 Nikola Smolenski smole...@eunet.rs: On 14/08/12 08:57, Amir E. Aharoni wrote: 2012/8/14 Nikola Smolenskismole...@eunet.rs: I believe it should be possible to alleviate this problem to an extent by introducing automatic transcription between languages and specifying what language the mayor's default name is in. If automatic transcription gets it wrong, it could still be overriden when someone enters the name in another language. It is guaranteed to be profoundly broken. The above-mentioned Hebrew names will be transliterated as'mrm mcn' (the apostrophes are part Would it? How many Hebrew names are there that are spelled עמרם? If the transliteration software knows it's a human name it can transliterate it as Amram. What you say is kinda true, but in practice it's much more complicated. I worked for a few years in a company that makes software that does this and I was the lead developer. There are two software packages that do it for Hebrew, they are proprietary and very expensive. It's not that making a Free package is impossible, but you need a team for every language that has such problems, you need several full time people to maintain the words, and what's worst is that most words have six or so possible pronunciations. Sure, crowdsourcing in Wikidata may change that, but it's too early to talk about this. AFAIK the situation is even worse in Arabic, which is a much bigger language than Hebrew. What I'm getting at is, again, that some limited helping transliteration may be OK, but it must not be automatically propagated. Naïve people may think that that's how the name is actually written, and in such matters most people are very naïve. -- Amir ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] watching Wikidata changes that affect my wiki
I think the topic is relevant for the Wikidata editing UI. At the hackathon in Berlin we had discussions about a chain of fallback languages. Have reworked and added some potential user-interface behaviour to http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Notes/Language_fallback Gregor ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] watching Wikidata changes that affect my wiki
On 14/08/12 09:28, Amir E. Aharoni wrote: 2012/8/14 Nikola Smolenskismole...@eunet.rs: On 14/08/12 08:57, Amir E. Aharoni wrote: 2012/8/14 Nikola Smolenskismole...@eunet.rs: I believe it should be possible to alleviate this problem to an extent by introducing automatic transcription between languages and specifying what language the mayor's default name is in. If automatic transcription gets it wrong, it could still be overriden when someone enters the name in another language. It is guaranteed to be profoundly broken. The above-mentioned Hebrew names will be transliterated as'mrm mcn' (the apostrophes are part Would it? How many Hebrew names are there that are spelled עמרם? If the transliteration software knows it's a human name it can transliterate it as Amram. What you say is kinda true, but in practice it's much more complicated. I worked for a few years in a company that makes software that does this and I was the lead developer. There are two software packages that do it for Hebrew, they are proprietary and very expensive. It's not that making a Free package is impossible, but you need a team for every language that has such problems, you need several full time people to maintain the words, and what's worst is that most words have six or so possible pronunciations. Sure, crowdsourcing in Wikidata may change that, but it's too early to talk about this. AFAIK the situation is even worse in Arabic, which is a much bigger language than Hebrew. What I'm getting at is, again, that some limited helping transliteration may be OK, but it must not be automatically propagated. Naïve people may think that that's how the name is For Hebrew, Arabic and a few similar cases. In a large number of language combinations we will not have such problems. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] watching Wikidata changes that affect my wiki
In cases of changing an old name by a new name a second problem will be the fact: For the old name may exist an article in some of the wikis - what means, there the old name is [[Adam]], but the new has no article and must be Eva, but not [[Eva]]: To change this correct, always human intervention is necessary. Dr.cueppers Dr. Cüppers GmbH Hübnerstraße 2 33104 Paderborn 05254 935700 ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] watching Wikidata changes that affect my wiki
It is not. Wikidata would know if an article on Eva exists in the Wikipedia of a given language (if it is appropriately connected), and thus would be able to automatically offer the link or not. Cheers, Denny 2012/8/14 dr.cueppers.g...@arcor.de: In cases of changing an old name by a new name a second problem will be the fact: For the old name may exist an article in some of the wikis - what means, there the old name is [[Adam]], but the new has no article and must be Eva, but not [[Eva]]: To change this correct, always human intervention is necessary. Dr.cueppers Dr. Cüppers GmbH Hübnerstraße 2 33104 Paderborn 05254 935700 ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l -- Project director Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 72 | 10963 Berlin Tel. +49-30-219 158 26-0 | http://wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] watching Wikidata changes that affect my wiki
2012/8/14 Denny Vrandečić denny.vrande...@wikimedia.de: In general I am a strong believer of let's start with the simple thing, which is to let editors add transliterations (that is why we have a label field for every entity in every language). I may see a use case for a transliteration-bot that does some of the transliterations (semi?)automatically, but I actually would think that this is probably something that should be left to the community. There might be some simple cases for language fallbacks (including transliterations) but we have not touched that development item yet. We have to see how this works out. But in short, I am wary of automatic systems and rather would count on the knowledge of the editors. I hope that makes sense, This makes perfect sense and I agree. -- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] watching Wikidata changes that affect my wiki
And if there are 10 articles Eva with [[Eva (abc)]], [[Eva (def]], [[Eva (ghi]] ? Wikidata will find out the correct one in every case? - Original Nachricht Von: Denny Vrande?i? denny.vrande...@wikimedia.de An: Discussion list for the Wikidata project. wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org Datum: 14.08.2012 16:30 Betreff: Re: [Wikidata-l] watching Wikidata changes that affect my wiki It is not. Wikidata would know if an article on Eva exists in the Wikipedia of a given language (if it is appropriately connected), and thus would be able to automatically offer the link or not. Cheers, Denny 2012/8/14 dr.cueppers.g...@arcor.de: In cases of changing an old name by a new name a second problem will be the fact: For the old name may exist an article in some of the wikis - what means, there the old name is [[Adam]], but the new has no article and must be Eva, but not [[Eva]]: To change this correct, always human intervention is necessary. Dr.cueppers Dr. Cüppers GmbH Hübnerstraße 2 33104 Paderborn 05254 935700 ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l -- Project director Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 72 | 10963 Berlin Tel. +49-30-219 158 26-0 | http://wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l Dr. Cüppers GmbH Hübnerstraße 2 33104 Paderborn 05254 935700 ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] watching Wikidata changes that affect my wiki
On 08/14/2012 05:29 PM, dr.cueppers.g...@arcor.de wrote: And if there are 10 articles Eva with [[Eva (abc)]], [[Eva (def]], [[Eva (ghi]] ? Wikidata will find out the correct one in every case? As I unterstood, we have articles and we have WikiData-Items. Linking articles will be done by people not by machines. Of course we already have interwiki links between article [[de:Berlin]] and [[en:Berlin]]. Once anybody linked one of those to the item Berlin' a bot can add the other one to this item as well. Marco ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] watching Wikidata changes that affect my wiki
The editors would need to make the connections explicitly between the article. The software would not be guessing it, if that is what you are assuming. And the editors should be good at getting the correct one. Together with Marco's answer, does it make it clearer? 2012/8/14 dr.cueppers.g...@arcor.de: And if there are 10 articles Eva with [[Eva (abc)]], [[Eva (def]], [[Eva (ghi]] ? Wikidata will find out the correct one in every case? - Original Nachricht Von: Denny Vrande?i? denny.vrande...@wikimedia.de An: Discussion list for the Wikidata project. wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org Datum: 14.08.2012 16:30 Betreff: Re: [Wikidata-l] watching Wikidata changes that affect my wiki It is not. Wikidata would know if an article on Eva exists in the Wikipedia of a given language (if it is appropriately connected), and thus would be able to automatically offer the link or not. Cheers, Denny 2012/8/14 dr.cueppers.g...@arcor.de: In cases of changing an old name by a new name a second problem will be the fact: For the old name may exist an article in some of the wikis - what means, there the old name is [[Adam]], but the new has no article and must be Eva, but not [[Eva]]: To change this correct, always human intervention is necessary. Dr.cueppers Dr. Cüppers GmbH Hübnerstraße 2 33104 Paderborn 05254 935700 ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l -- Project director Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 72 | 10963 Berlin Tel. +49-30-219 158 26-0 | http://wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l Dr. Cüppers GmbH Hübnerstraße 2 33104 Paderborn 05254 935700 ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l -- Project director Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 72 | 10963 Berlin Tel. +49-30-219 158 26-0 | http://wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
