Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

[Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής]

Some thoughts over the matter:
Wikipedia has already rules about how the users should  interact and the
"penalties" that all users would endure equally if they wouldn 't apply to
them. If you are a volunteer/user the things are simple. You get blocked
and that is that. Imagine being a newbie then sadly, things are even more
simple. The problem starts when the administrators who are called to
perform those rules are the harrashers themselves and don' t get punished.
For example old users with multiple interactions with WMF such as grants,
being in user groups/chapters with funding, grantees of trips in
conferences annualy and having created a net of protection of
users/administrators around them over the years, because they know the
tricks to fly under the rader and be likeable. People as such, who see
their interaction with wikipedia more as a profortable and prestigious job,
and are "vauliable" to wmf because they run the annual contests in
wikipedia or doing other wikimedia jobs beneficiary to the foundation but
not wikipedia, is the code of contact going to apply as well? Simple rules
don't. And who will execute it?  I believe that the code of conduct is an
attempt, for the wmf to be politically correct in the eyes of the world and
the communities that something is going to change to the better in
wikipedia. I  believe that the code of conduct will not solve any problems
because that is not why it's being made for. Participating to the
discussion just legalize wmf behaviour to not  encounter all user equally
and "putting under the rag" serious harrasment cases by users just because
they get the job done.

But the truth of the matter is that WMF only regards us as equals when
needs us to support it.


Ανώνυμος Βικιπαιδιστής

Στις Τετ, 9 Σεπ 2020, 4:22 π.μ. ο χρήστης Dan Szymborski <
dszymbor...@gmail.com> έγραψε:

> There was meant to be a " " there, but my phone rudely stripped it.
>
> If it does it again, I'll make up a rule and suspend it for a year. It's
> what the WMF would want, I'm sure.
>
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 3:45 PM Andy Mabbett 
> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 at 20:06, Dan Szymborski 
> wrote:
> >
> > > The only tiniest shred of direct accountability on the board, the
> > community
> > > board elections
> > [...]
> >
> > They're not elections; we get to vote on nominations, the board decide
> > whether to accept them.
> >
> > --
> > Andy Mabbett
> > @pigsonthewing
> > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

[Dan Szymborski]

There was meant to be a " " there, but my phone rudely stripped it.

If it does it again, I'll make up a rule and suspend it for a year. It's
what the WMF would want, I'm sure.

On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 3:45 PM Andy Mabbett 
wrote:

> On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 at 20:06, Dan Szymborski  wrote:
>
> > The only tiniest shred of direct accountability on the board, the
> community
> > board elections
> [...]
>
> They're not elections; we get to vote on nominations, the board decide
> whether to accept them.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

[Samuel Klein]

Thanks Patrick + all.  It looks like most discussion is happening on Meta,
which seems fitting.

On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 4:18 PM Patrick Earley  wrote:

> Hello, everyone.
>
> We are excited to share a draft of the Universal Code of Conduct
> , which the
> Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees called for earlier this year
> <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/May_2020_-_Board_of_Trustees_on_Healthy_Community_Culture,_Inclusivity,_and_Safe_Spaces
> >,
> for your review and feedback. The discussion will be open until October 6,
> 2020.
>
> The UCoC Drafting Committee
> <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Drafting_committee
> >wants
> to learn which parts of the draft would present challenges for you or your
> work. What is missing from this draft? What do you like, and what could be
> improved?
>
>
> Many thanks to the Committee, and everyone who has helped with translations
> so far.
>
>
> Please join the conversation
> 
> and share this email with others who may be interested to join, too.
>
> To learn more about the UCoC project, see the Universal Code of Conduct
> page
> , and the FAQ
> , on Meta.
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct
>
> [2]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/May_2020_-_Board_of_Trustees_on_Healthy_Community_Culture,_Inclusivity,_and_Safe_Spaces
>
> [3] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Draft_review
> [4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/FAQ
>
> --
> Patrick Earley
> Policy Manager, Trust and Safety
> Wikimedia Foundation
> pear...@wikimedia.org
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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> 
>


-- 
Samuel Klein  @metasj   w:user:sj  +1 617 529 4266
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

[Gnangarra]

UCoC is pointless if their systems of enforcement are themselves biased or
weighted in any way to those who are known to the community.  The large
communities already have policies, the problem in those communities is the
unwillingness and inability of the process to be enforced equally on those
who have deeply established connections within the community.  It gets more
complicated when the nuances of local cultural use of language runs into
the linguistic, cultural, and, or second language generic teachings of the
language.

On Wed, 9 Sep 2020 at 03:44, Andy Mabbett  wrote:

> On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 at 20:06, Dan Szymborski  wrote:
>
> > The only tiniest shred of direct accountability on the board, the
> community
> > board elections
> [...]
>
> They're not elections; we get to vote on nominations, the board decide
> whether to accept them.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>


-- 
GN.

*Power of Diverse Collaboration*
*Sharing knowledge brings people together*
Wikimania Bangkok 2021
August
hosted by ESEAP

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

[Andy Mabbett]

On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 at 20:06, Dan Szymborski  wrote:

> The only tiniest shred of direct accountability on the board, the community
> board elections
[...]

They're not elections; we get to vote on nominations, the board decide
whether to accept them.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

[Dan Szymborski]

Yeah, we've seen from the branding fiasco just how much the imperial
overlords deign to respect the opinions of the peasants.

The only tiniest shred of direct accountability on the board, the community
board elections, have been scuttled for Very Convenient Reasons.

The model is terribly broken and nobody should provide any support,
financial or otherwise, to the WMF in its current incarnation.

On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 2:42 PM Isaac Olatunde 
wrote:

> Hello Dan,
>
> You are allowed to offer an opinion but I Honestly think that's better and
> more useful on the Draft talk page.
>
> That being said, by "effective vote or representation in the proceedings",
> you probably expected a different model where different language
> Wikip(m)edia community would be represented or vote on weather to have a
> UCoC.
>
> The current model isn't bad.  I do think we should review the draft and if
> there are specific wording we disagree with, we can either suggest
> improvement or removal altogether. I honestly think we need to help and
> support the drafting committee at this stage.
>
> Regards
>
> Isaac
>
> On Tue, 8 Sep 2020, 19:25 Dan Szymborski,  wrote:
>
> > I'm also perfectly free to express to the IRS that I'd really like to
> get a
> > $10 million check from them at tax time. The ability to offer an opinion
> on
> > proceedings with no effective vote or representation in the proceedings
> is
> > about as good as a fart in the wind. I'd prefer the WMF keep its
> flatulence
> > to itself.
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 2:17 PM Isaac Olatunde 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On the contrary, I do not think this is an imposition by the Board or
> WMF
> > > as we are allowed to comment on the draft, and suggest improvement.
> > >
> > > I have been following the process closely and I do not see anything
> that
> > > looks like an "imposition"
> > >
> > > The Universal Code of Conduct is not a substitute to the existing
> policy
> > or
> > > guidelines but a behavioural guidelines expected of users in any
> > Wikimedia
> > > project.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Isaac
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, 8 Sep 2020, 16:11 Dan Szymborski, 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > As this is being explicitly imposed by the board from above without
> > > > community approval, participating in any way is ethically unsound.
> > Doubly
> > > > so without a board election preceding this as the WMF has arbitrarily
> > > > denied communities the right, as manifested in the election of the
> > > > community seats, to voice their opinions of actions that WMF has
> taken
> > > over
> > > > the last 18 months. A collaborative process is a collaborative
> process
> > > when
> > > > it's actually a collaborative process, not just when it's called one.
> > > >
> > > > The best use of time at this point is to organize the communities to
> > use
> > > > every means at its disposal to resist such an imposition.
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 4:18 PM Patrick Earley  >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hello, everyone.
> > > > >
> > > > > We are excited to share a draft of the Universal Code of Conduct
> > > > > , which
> > the
> > > > > Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees called for earlier this year
> > > > > <
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/May_2020_-_Board_of_Trustees_on_Healthy_Community_Culture,_Inclusivity,_and_Safe_Spaces
> > > > > >,
> > > > > for your review and feedback. The discussion will be open until
> > October
> > > > 6,
> > > > > 2020.
> > > > >
> > > > > The UCoC Drafting Committee
> > > > > <
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Drafting_committee
> > > > > >wants
> > > > > to learn which parts of the draft would present challenges for you
> or
> > > > your
> > > > > work. What is missing from this draft? What do you like, and what
> > could
> > > > be
> > > > > improved?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Many thanks to the Committee, and everyone who has helped with
> > > > translations
> > > > > so far.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Please join the conversation
> > > > > <
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Draft_review
> >
> > > > > and share this email with others who may be interested to join,
> too.
> > > > >
> > > > > To learn more about the UCoC project, see the Universal Code of
> > Conduct
> > > > > page
> > > > > , and
> the
> > > FAQ
> > > > > ,
> on
> > > > Meta.
> > > > >
> > > > > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct
> > > > >
> > > > > [2]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/May_2020_-_Board_of_Trustees_on_Healthy_Community_Culture,_Inclusivity,_and_Safe_Spaces
> > > > >
> > > > > [3]
> > > >
> 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

[Isaac Olatunde]

Hello Dan,

You are allowed to offer an opinion but I Honestly think that's better and
more useful on the Draft talk page.

That being said, by "effective vote or representation in the proceedings",
you probably expected a different model where different language
Wikip(m)edia community would be represented or vote on weather to have a
UCoC.

The current model isn't bad.  I do think we should review the draft and if
there are specific wording we disagree with, we can either suggest
improvement or removal altogether. I honestly think we need to help and
support the drafting committee at this stage.

Regards

Isaac

On Tue, 8 Sep 2020, 19:25 Dan Szymborski,  wrote:

> I'm also perfectly free to express to the IRS that I'd really like to get a
> $10 million check from them at tax time. The ability to offer an opinion on
> proceedings with no effective vote or representation in the proceedings is
> about as good as a fart in the wind. I'd prefer the WMF keep its flatulence
> to itself.
>
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 2:17 PM Isaac Olatunde 
> wrote:
>
> > On the contrary, I do not think this is an imposition by the Board or WMF
> > as we are allowed to comment on the draft, and suggest improvement.
> >
> > I have been following the process closely and I do not see anything that
> > looks like an "imposition"
> >
> > The Universal Code of Conduct is not a substitute to the existing policy
> or
> > guidelines but a behavioural guidelines expected of users in any
> Wikimedia
> > project.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Isaac
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 8 Sep 2020, 16:11 Dan Szymborski,  wrote:
> >
> > > As this is being explicitly imposed by the board from above without
> > > community approval, participating in any way is ethically unsound.
> Doubly
> > > so without a board election preceding this as the WMF has arbitrarily
> > > denied communities the right, as manifested in the election of the
> > > community seats, to voice their opinions of actions that WMF has taken
> > over
> > > the last 18 months. A collaborative process is a collaborative process
> > when
> > > it's actually a collaborative process, not just when it's called one.
> > >
> > > The best use of time at this point is to organize the communities to
> use
> > > every means at its disposal to resist such an imposition.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 4:18 PM Patrick Earley 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello, everyone.
> > > >
> > > > We are excited to share a draft of the Universal Code of Conduct
> > > > , which
> the
> > > > Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees called for earlier this year
> > > > <
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/May_2020_-_Board_of_Trustees_on_Healthy_Community_Culture,_Inclusivity,_and_Safe_Spaces
> > > > >,
> > > > for your review and feedback. The discussion will be open until
> October
> > > 6,
> > > > 2020.
> > > >
> > > > The UCoC Drafting Committee
> > > > <
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Drafting_committee
> > > > >wants
> > > > to learn which parts of the draft would present challenges for you or
> > > your
> > > > work. What is missing from this draft? What do you like, and what
> could
> > > be
> > > > improved?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Many thanks to the Committee, and everyone who has helped with
> > > translations
> > > > so far.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Please join the conversation
> > > > <
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Draft_review>
> > > > and share this email with others who may be interested to join, too.
> > > >
> > > > To learn more about the UCoC project, see the Universal Code of
> Conduct
> > > > page
> > > > , and the
> > FAQ
> > > > , on
> > > Meta.
> > > >
> > > > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct
> > > >
> > > > [2]
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/May_2020_-_Board_of_Trustees_on_Healthy_Community_Culture,_Inclusivity,_and_Safe_Spaces
> > > >
> > > > [3]
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Draft_review
> > > > [4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/FAQ
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Patrick Earley
> > > > Policy Manager, Trust and Safety
> > > > Wikimedia Foundation
> > > > pear...@wikimedia.org
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

[Dan Szymborski]

I'm also perfectly free to express to the IRS that I'd really like to get a
$10 million check from them at tax time. The ability to offer an opinion on
proceedings with no effective vote or representation in the proceedings is
about as good as a fart in the wind. I'd prefer the WMF keep its flatulence
to itself.

On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 2:17 PM Isaac Olatunde 
wrote:

> On the contrary, I do not think this is an imposition by the Board or WMF
> as we are allowed to comment on the draft, and suggest improvement.
>
> I have been following the process closely and I do not see anything that
> looks like an "imposition"
>
> The Universal Code of Conduct is not a substitute to the existing policy or
> guidelines but a behavioural guidelines expected of users in any Wikimedia
> project.
>
> Regards
>
> Isaac
>
>
> On Tue, 8 Sep 2020, 16:11 Dan Szymborski,  wrote:
>
> > As this is being explicitly imposed by the board from above without
> > community approval, participating in any way is ethically unsound. Doubly
> > so without a board election preceding this as the WMF has arbitrarily
> > denied communities the right, as manifested in the election of the
> > community seats, to voice their opinions of actions that WMF has taken
> over
> > the last 18 months. A collaborative process is a collaborative process
> when
> > it's actually a collaborative process, not just when it's called one.
> >
> > The best use of time at this point is to organize the communities to use
> > every means at its disposal to resist such an imposition.
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 4:18 PM Patrick Earley 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hello, everyone.
> > >
> > > We are excited to share a draft of the Universal Code of Conduct
> > > , which the
> > > Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees called for earlier this year
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/May_2020_-_Board_of_Trustees_on_Healthy_Community_Culture,_Inclusivity,_and_Safe_Spaces
> > > >,
> > > for your review and feedback. The discussion will be open until October
> > 6,
> > > 2020.
> > >
> > > The UCoC Drafting Committee
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Drafting_committee
> > > >wants
> > > to learn which parts of the draft would present challenges for you or
> > your
> > > work. What is missing from this draft? What do you like, and what could
> > be
> > > improved?
> > >
> > >
> > > Many thanks to the Committee, and everyone who has helped with
> > translations
> > > so far.
> > >
> > >
> > > Please join the conversation
> > > <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Draft_review>
> > > and share this email with others who may be interested to join, too.
> > >
> > > To learn more about the UCoC project, see the Universal Code of Conduct
> > > page
> > > , and the
> FAQ
> > > , on
> > Meta.
> > >
> > > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct
> > >
> > > [2]
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/May_2020_-_Board_of_Trustees_on_Healthy_Community_Culture,_Inclusivity,_and_Safe_Spaces
> > >
> > > [3]
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Draft_review
> > > [4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/FAQ
> > >
> > > --
> > > Patrick Earley
> > > Policy Manager, Trust and Safety
> > > Wikimedia Foundation
> > > pear...@wikimedia.org
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

[Isaac Olatunde]

On the contrary, I do not think this is an imposition by the Board or WMF
as we are allowed to comment on the draft, and suggest improvement.

I have been following the process closely and I do not see anything that
looks like an "imposition"

The Universal Code of Conduct is not a substitute to the existing policy or
guidelines but a behavioural guidelines expected of users in any Wikimedia
project.

Regards

Isaac


On Tue, 8 Sep 2020, 16:11 Dan Szymborski,  wrote:

> As this is being explicitly imposed by the board from above without
> community approval, participating in any way is ethically unsound. Doubly
> so without a board election preceding this as the WMF has arbitrarily
> denied communities the right, as manifested in the election of the
> community seats, to voice their opinions of actions that WMF has taken over
> the last 18 months. A collaborative process is a collaborative process when
> it's actually a collaborative process, not just when it's called one.
>
> The best use of time at this point is to organize the communities to use
> every means at its disposal to resist such an imposition.
>
> On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 4:18 PM Patrick Earley 
> wrote:
>
> > Hello, everyone.
> >
> > We are excited to share a draft of the Universal Code of Conduct
> > , which the
> > Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees called for earlier this year
> > <
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/May_2020_-_Board_of_Trustees_on_Healthy_Community_Culture,_Inclusivity,_and_Safe_Spaces
> > >,
> > for your review and feedback. The discussion will be open until October
> 6,
> > 2020.
> >
> > The UCoC Drafting Committee
> > <
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Drafting_committee
> > >wants
> > to learn which parts of the draft would present challenges for you or
> your
> > work. What is missing from this draft? What do you like, and what could
> be
> > improved?
> >
> >
> > Many thanks to the Committee, and everyone who has helped with
> translations
> > so far.
> >
> >
> > Please join the conversation
> > 
> > and share this email with others who may be interested to join, too.
> >
> > To learn more about the UCoC project, see the Universal Code of Conduct
> > page
> > , and the FAQ
> > , on
> Meta.
> >
> > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct
> >
> > [2]
> >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/May_2020_-_Board_of_Trustees_on_Healthy_Community_Culture,_Inclusivity,_and_Safe_Spaces
> >
> > [3]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Draft_review
> > [4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/FAQ
> >
> > --
> > Patrick Earley
> > Policy Manager, Trust and Safety
> > Wikimedia Foundation
> > pear...@wikimedia.org
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Covid-19] An update on in-person gatherings

[effe iets anders]

Hi Lydia,

thanks for that update. Just to give a little more context for my message:
- In Katherine's email, there was no timeline, but it was the last
substantive email. While your response did have some helpful process
information, it did not respond to any of the substantive points. That is
no accusation, but I just haven't seen any actual action in the past month,
in the public space. Maybe I missed it (I didn't see the engagement of Chen
that you referred to - so that is very well possible. If anyone is looking
for it: it's this edit I presume

?).
- As I mentioned before, there is usually a big spike of activities in
September, and it's especially demotivating to see that no policy will be
available
- I had hoped (honestly: expected) that the release "end of August" was
referring to when the policy/tool/etc would start, not when the
consultation of what such guidance could look like, would start.
- I find it hard to keep a constant eye on meta each day, waiting for that
feedback page that was promised a month ago to come live.

Maybe these are naive or unrealistic expectations. I really appreciate the
good intentions, but I guess what I was hoping for mostly, was more of an
ongoing engaging conversation, to arrive at a policy that is not only
sensible from a safety perspective, but also practical.

Lodewijk

On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 7:13 AM Lydia Hamilton 
wrote:

> Hi Lodewijk,
>
> As shared previously, an update is forthcoming during the month of
> September. I struggle a bit with the statement "the last month of silence,"
> when Katherine, Chen, and myself have been in active communication with
> the community on this topic via either wiki-l or the Conference and Events
> Grant Meta page [1], all within the last 30 days.
>
> Nonetheless, as I believe you're specifically seeing a deadline, the
> guidance will be sent by the end of this week.
>
> Kind Regards,
> Lydia
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Conference
>
>   --
> *Lydia Hamilton* (she/her)
> Director of Operations
> Wikimedia Foundation 
>
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 3:31 AM effe iets anders 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> is there any update on this? Has any progress been made to start a
>> conversation with the community organizers about this?
>>
>> As an organizer, the months of silence (and the last month of silence) on
>> this are a little saddening.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Lodewijk
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 12:24 PM Lydia Hamilton 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Lodewijk,
>>>
>>> Thank you for your feedback. We look forward to the forthcoming
>>> September release of detailed guidance that will allow Community members to
>>> assess their ability to safely host events and activities during the
>>> current pandemic circumstances.
>>>
>>> I’d like to respond to some of your comments:
>>>
>>> "It looks like your email was written to include a place where you want
>>> to gather this feedback."
>>>
>>> -- Feedback will be gathered on the guidance Meta talk page, which will
>>> reside in the Grants portal.
>>>
>>> "I'm assuming we're talking only about local events of limited size
>>> (probably a different risk profile applies for larger and/or
>>> travel-involved activities)."
>>>
>>> -- The guidance will address events of all sizes.
>>>
>>> "As an organizer, it is nice to have clarity where possible. Crisp
>>> definitions that translate well, are very helpful."
>>>
>>> -- Agreed. The guidance will be reviewed for clarity, ease of use and
>>> ease of translation.
>>>
>>> "I can't imagine an identical set of constraints to apply across
>>> countries."
>>>
>>> -- The guidance will include a host of assessment criteria that will
>>> allow Community members to evaluate the specific characteristics of their
>>> proposed event/activity, including location.
>>>
>>> "I'm confident that you already reached out to many affiliates to get
>>> their input ealy on."
>>>
>>> -- Yes. We will be evaluating and testing the guidance with selected
>>> affiliates prior to release on Meta.
>>>
>>> Kind Regards,
>>> Lydia
>>>
>>> Lydia Hamilton (she/her)
>>> Director of Operations
>>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 2:41 PM Anusha Alikhan 
>>> wrote:
>>>




 *From: *effe iets anders 
 *Subject: **Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Covid-19] An update on in-person
 gatherings*
 *Date: *August 10, 2020 at 8:43:04 PM EDT
 *To: *Wikimedia Mailing List 
 *Reply-To: *effeietsand...@gmail.com, Wikimedia Mailing List <
 wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>

 Thank you Katherine for this update,

 I'm much looking forward to a more nuanced policy. I think it is clear
 that
 the standing policy (no in-person activities of any size, around the
 world)
 is past its expiration date and can't realistically be maintained any
 longer in its broad interpretation. With the 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Universal Code of Conduct draft for review

[Dan Szymborski]

As this is being explicitly imposed by the board from above without
community approval, participating in any way is ethically unsound. Doubly
so without a board election preceding this as the WMF has arbitrarily
denied communities the right, as manifested in the election of the
community seats, to voice their opinions of actions that WMF has taken over
the last 18 months. A collaborative process is a collaborative process when
it's actually a collaborative process, not just when it's called one.

The best use of time at this point is to organize the communities to use
every means at its disposal to resist such an imposition.

On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 4:18 PM Patrick Earley  wrote:

> Hello, everyone.
>
> We are excited to share a draft of the Universal Code of Conduct
> , which the
> Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees called for earlier this year
> <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/May_2020_-_Board_of_Trustees_on_Healthy_Community_Culture,_Inclusivity,_and_Safe_Spaces
> >,
> for your review and feedback. The discussion will be open until October 6,
> 2020.
>
> The UCoC Drafting Committee
> <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Drafting_committee
> >wants
> to learn which parts of the draft would present challenges for you or your
> work. What is missing from this draft? What do you like, and what could be
> improved?
>
>
> Many thanks to the Committee, and everyone who has helped with translations
> so far.
>
>
> Please join the conversation
> 
> and share this email with others who may be interested to join, too.
>
> To learn more about the UCoC project, see the Universal Code of Conduct
> page
> , and the FAQ
> , on Meta.
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct
>
> [2]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/May_2020_-_Board_of_Trustees_on_Healthy_Community_Culture,_Inclusivity,_and_Safe_Spaces
>
> [3] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Draft_review
> [4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/FAQ
>
> --
> Patrick Earley
> Policy Manager, Trust and Safety
> Wikimedia Foundation
> pear...@wikimedia.org
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Covid-19] An update on in-person gatherings

[Lydia Hamilton]

Hi Lodewijk,

As shared previously, an update is forthcoming during the month of
September. I struggle a bit with the statement "the last month of silence,"
when Katherine, Chen, and myself have been in active communication with
the community on this topic via either wiki-l or the Conference and Events
Grant Meta page [1], all within the last 30 days.

Nonetheless, as I believe you're specifically seeing a deadline, the
guidance will be sent by the end of this week.

Kind Regards,
Lydia

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Conference

  --
*Lydia Hamilton* (she/her)
Director of Operations
Wikimedia Foundation 

On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 3:31 AM effe iets anders 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> is there any update on this? Has any progress been made to start a
> conversation with the community organizers about this?
>
> As an organizer, the months of silence (and the last month of silence) on
> this are a little saddening.
>
> Thanks,
> Lodewijk
>
> On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 12:24 PM Lydia Hamilton 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Lodewijk,
>>
>> Thank you for your feedback. We look forward to the forthcoming September
>> release of detailed guidance that will allow Community members to assess
>> their ability to safely host events and activities during the current
>> pandemic circumstances.
>>
>> I’d like to respond to some of your comments:
>>
>> "It looks like your email was written to include a place where you want
>> to gather this feedback."
>>
>> -- Feedback will be gathered on the guidance Meta talk page, which will
>> reside in the Grants portal.
>>
>> "I'm assuming we're talking only about local events of limited size
>> (probably a different risk profile applies for larger and/or
>> travel-involved activities)."
>>
>> -- The guidance will address events of all sizes.
>>
>> "As an organizer, it is nice to have clarity where possible. Crisp
>> definitions that translate well, are very helpful."
>>
>> -- Agreed. The guidance will be reviewed for clarity, ease of use and
>> ease of translation.
>>
>> "I can't imagine an identical set of constraints to apply across
>> countries."
>>
>> -- The guidance will include a host of assessment criteria that will
>> allow Community members to evaluate the specific characteristics of their
>> proposed event/activity, including location.
>>
>> "I'm confident that you already reached out to many affiliates to get
>> their input ealy on."
>>
>> -- Yes. We will be evaluating and testing the guidance with selected
>> affiliates prior to release on Meta.
>>
>> Kind Regards,
>> Lydia
>>
>> Lydia Hamilton (she/her)
>> Director of Operations
>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 2:41 PM Anusha Alikhan 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *effe iets anders 
>>> *Subject: **Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Covid-19] An update on in-person
>>> gatherings*
>>> *Date: *August 10, 2020 at 8:43:04 PM EDT
>>> *To: *Wikimedia Mailing List 
>>> *Reply-To: *effeietsand...@gmail.com, Wikimedia Mailing List <
>>> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>>>
>>> Thank you Katherine for this update,
>>>
>>> I'm much looking forward to a more nuanced policy. I think it is clear
>>> that
>>> the standing policy (no in-person activities of any size, around the
>>> world)
>>> is past its expiration date and can't realistically be maintained any
>>> longer in its broad interpretation. With the current policy, we're
>>> risking
>>> people just ignoring it when they feel no legal obligation to follow it.
>>>
>>> I hope that we can have an updated policy to provide a little more
>>> flexibility sooner than later, even if that means that it is a first
>>> phase
>>> of making things more nuanced. For example, we could carve out exceptions
>>> for countries where there is a clear 'safe' situation (even if we all
>>> know
>>> this is a very relative thing). Wiki Loves Monuments is about to start,
>>> and
>>> it would be nice if we could make sure that updates can be considered in
>>> the planning as much as possible - especially as this is happening in
>>> many
>>> different countries, and traditionally mostly outdoors anyway.
>>>
>>> It looks like your email was written to include a place where you want to
>>> gather this feedback. Did a link go missing?
>>>
>>> For what it's worth, I do have some thoughts about such an updated
>>> policy,
>>> from the viewpoint as someone who would have to comply. I'm assuming
>>> we're
>>> talking only about local events of limited size (probably a different
>>> risk
>>> profile applies for larger and/or travel-involved activities). I'm
>>> obviously no epidemiologist or public health policy expert, and I suspect
>>> many of these are already front and center in your thinking:
>>> - As an organizer, it is nice to have clarity where possible. Crisp
>>> definitions that translate well, are very helpful.
>>> - Given how different the public health situations are around the world,
>>> I
>>> can't imagine an identical set of constraints to apply across 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Covid-19] An update on in-person gatherings

[effe iets anders]

Hi all,

is there any update on this? Has any progress been made to start a
conversation with the community organizers about this?

As an organizer, the months of silence (and the last month of silence) on
this are a little saddening.

Thanks,
Lodewijk

On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 12:24 PM Lydia Hamilton 
wrote:

> Hi Lodewijk,
>
> Thank you for your feedback. We look forward to the forthcoming September
> release of detailed guidance that will allow Community members to assess
> their ability to safely host events and activities during the current
> pandemic circumstances.
>
> I’d like to respond to some of your comments:
>
> "It looks like your email was written to include a place where you want to
> gather this feedback."
>
> -- Feedback will be gathered on the guidance Meta talk page, which will
> reside in the Grants portal.
>
> "I'm assuming we're talking only about local events of limited size
> (probably a different risk profile applies for larger and/or
> travel-involved activities)."
>
> -- The guidance will address events of all sizes.
>
> "As an organizer, it is nice to have clarity where possible. Crisp
> definitions that translate well, are very helpful."
>
> -- Agreed. The guidance will be reviewed for clarity, ease of use and ease
> of translation.
>
> "I can't imagine an identical set of constraints to apply across
> countries."
>
> -- The guidance will include a host of assessment criteria that will allow
> Community members to evaluate the specific characteristics of their
> proposed event/activity, including location.
>
> "I'm confident that you already reached out to many affiliates to get
> their input ealy on."
>
> -- Yes. We will be evaluating and testing the guidance with selected
> affiliates prior to release on Meta.
>
> Kind Regards,
> Lydia
>
> Lydia Hamilton (she/her)
> Director of Operations
> Wikimedia Foundation
>
> On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 2:41 PM Anusha Alikhan 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *effe iets anders 
>> *Subject: **Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Covid-19] An update on in-person
>> gatherings*
>> *Date: *August 10, 2020 at 8:43:04 PM EDT
>> *To: *Wikimedia Mailing List 
>> *Reply-To: *effeietsand...@gmail.com, Wikimedia Mailing List <
>> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>>
>> Thank you Katherine for this update,
>>
>> I'm much looking forward to a more nuanced policy. I think it is clear
>> that
>> the standing policy (no in-person activities of any size, around the
>> world)
>> is past its expiration date and can't realistically be maintained any
>> longer in its broad interpretation. With the current policy, we're risking
>> people just ignoring it when they feel no legal obligation to follow it.
>>
>> I hope that we can have an updated policy to provide a little more
>> flexibility sooner than later, even if that means that it is a first phase
>> of making things more nuanced. For example, we could carve out exceptions
>> for countries where there is a clear 'safe' situation (even if we all know
>> this is a very relative thing). Wiki Loves Monuments is about to start,
>> and
>> it would be nice if we could make sure that updates can be considered in
>> the planning as much as possible - especially as this is happening in many
>> different countries, and traditionally mostly outdoors anyway.
>>
>> It looks like your email was written to include a place where you want to
>> gather this feedback. Did a link go missing?
>>
>> For what it's worth, I do have some thoughts about such an updated policy,
>> from the viewpoint as someone who would have to comply. I'm assuming we're
>> talking only about local events of limited size (probably a different risk
>> profile applies for larger and/or travel-involved activities). I'm
>> obviously no epidemiologist or public health policy expert, and I suspect
>> many of these are already front and center in your thinking:
>> - As an organizer, it is nice to have clarity where possible. Crisp
>> definitions that translate well, are very helpful.
>> - Given how different the public health situations are around the world, I
>> can't imagine an identical set of constraints to apply across countries.
>> - Acceptance is important. For example, I know there are a large number of
>> countries where the wearing of masks is considered an accepted good
>> practice, while there are other countries where this is seen as counter
>> productive (with a heavier reliance on distance, for example). I know this
>> is a touchy subject in the US
>> - I wouldn't expect the WMF to interpret each country's public health
>> policy, at the risk of being always behind. Carving out exceptions for
>> countries that are notorious for not developing responsible policy, seems
>> fair though (although that seems an interesting problem for the
>> communications department...).
>> - Reduce bureaucracy to a minimum. Some may be needed to help people
>> through the thinking process, but it's also a deterrent to actually follow
>> the policy.
>>
>> The balance between