Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] New, lower traffic, announcements only email list for Wikimedia developers

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Amir E. Aharoni, 12/07/2012 12:42:

What's needed is a medium to announce important impending technical
changes, which require local changes. [...]

We could just blame the projects for not caring enough, or we could
come up with a more effective solution.


You're right that this is an important problem to address and your 
examples are very good, however I think they're not about a 
communication problem. The example problems you've mentioned are just 
impossible to solve for most wikis whatever communication you have with 
them, because they're too complex; the solution here is to make things 
simpler.
I don't know about right-to-left stuff, but protocol-relative URLs have 
been fixed only with a "central" direct intervention to fix mistakes of 
local wikis (and WMF staffers, even)[1] and RL is helped only by good 
documentation for JS gurus[2] or, on most (helpless) wikis, again by a 
central effort.[3]



We surely need ways to spread the word better and especially
during the "emergencies" such as deploy a mailing list can be the way but
surely it's not good for brainstorming or to gather feedback in a useful way
(compare https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech which is lately serving this
purpose, to my surprise I have to say, thanks to the effort of some users).


Thank you, I didn't know that page. I'll try to start following it.

In practice, it's harder to follow a wiki page than a mailing list.
But maybe that's just my own feeling.


Of course the wiki page is not good for announcements, but it's better 
than a mailing list for all the other things you mentioned. If there are 
some committed "maintainers" and/or a working IRC channel ([[Tech]] is 
now tightly connected with the revamped #wikimedia-tech, which would be 
improved by [4]), it can work although all attempts have failed in the 
past.[5]


Nemo

[1] 

[2] 

[3] 
 
or even better things like 
 to reduce 
the codebase to be maintained.

[4] 
[5] Today I've closed two problem report pages, see 



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] New, lower traffic, announcements only email list for Wikimedia developers

[Amir E. Aharoni]

2012/7/12 Federico Leva (Nemo) :
> Amir E. Aharoni, 11/07/2012 15:40:
>
>>> And the possible change would be for wikitech-ambassadors to become a
>>> medium-to-high-traffic, plain English, list for discussion between
>>> developers and Wikimedia users, to report issues, share ideas and
>>> provide feedback in unapologetically layman terms. The "Ambassadors"
>>> part also means that users who are on that list will have a role in
>>> disseminating information to their local communities, and reporting
>>> back issues possibly raised on local wikis.
>>
>>
>> It was my initiative about two years ago to start wikitech-ambassadors
>> and that's what I hoped it will become. It didn't, but it's still very
>> much needed.
>
>
> What's needed?

What's needed is a medium to announce important impending technical
changes, which require local changes.

Three simple examples:

1. The move to Resource Loader, which required changes in lots of user scripts.

2. The change of right-to-left text handling in 1.18, which required
changes in lots of styles.

3. The replacement of "secure" URLs by plain "https://"; URLs, which
required changes in lots of URLs in scripts, templates etc.

It's not that these changes aren't announced at all. They are
announced in various ways - sometimes by mass-posting to village
pumps, sometimes by blog posts, sometimes by CentralNotice. But it was
never properly tested to be effective, and the fact is that it isn't,
because the above issues are still not completely fixed in some
projects. Lots of projects don't get the message.

We could just blame the projects for not caring enough, or we could
come up with a more effective solution. I believe that an ambassadors
list is a good solution. I actually don't have very strong arguments
to support this belief; if anyone has better ideas for such a medium,
I'll be very glad to hear them. Maybe a blog dedicated to such
announcements will be better. Maybe a combination of solutions.

Obviously, the tool - mailing list, blog, feed, wiki page - is just
one side of the solution. The most important component is the
commitment of the people at the project. But better technical tools
are supposed to make this commitment easier to carry out.

The above is the most important requirement. A second priority would
be a discussion list for talking about such issues before they become
implemented and deployed. In the beginning they can be combined.

> We surely need ways to spread the word better and especially
> during the "emergencies" such as deploy a mailing list can be the way but
> surely it's not good for brainstorming or to gather feedback in a useful way
> (compare https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech which is lately serving this
> purpose, to my surprise I have to say, thanks to the effort of some users).

Thank you, I didn't know that page. I'll try to start following it.

In practice, it's harder to follow a wiki page than a mailing list.
But maybe that's just my own feeling.

--
Amir

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] New, lower traffic, announcements only email list for Wikimedia developers

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Amir E. Aharoni, 11/07/2012 15:40:

And the possible change would be for wikitech-ambassadors to become a
medium-to-high-traffic, plain English, list for discussion between
developers and Wikimedia users, to report issues, share ideas and
provide feedback in unapologetically layman terms. The "Ambassadors"
part also means that users who are on that list will have a role in
disseminating information to their local communities, and reporting
back issues possibly raised on local wikis.


It was my initiative about two years ago to start wikitech-ambassadors
and that's what I hoped it will become. It didn't, but it's still very
much needed.


What's needed? We surely need ways to spread the word better and 
especially during the "emergencies" such as deploy a mailing list can be 
the way but surely it's not good for brainstorming or to gather feedback 
in a useful way (compare https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech which is 
lately serving this purpose, to my surprise I have to say, thanks to the 
effort of some users).


Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] New, lower traffic, announcements only email list for Wikimedia developers

[Amir E. Aharoni]

> And the possible change would be for wikitech-ambassadors to become a
> medium-to-high-traffic, plain English, list for discussion between
> developers and Wikimedia users, to report issues, share ideas and
> provide feedback in unapologetically layman terms. The "Ambassadors"
> part also means that users who are on that list will have a role in
> disseminating information to their local communities, and reporting
> back issues possibly raised on local wikis.

It was my initiative about two years ago to start wikitech-ambassadors
and that's what I hoped it will become. It didn't, but it's still very
much needed.

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] New, lower traffic, announcements only email list for Wikimedia developers

[Guillaume Paumier]

Hi,

[cc:ing wikimedia-l because this message is also for Wikimedia users.]

I've been asked to weigh in on this topic, because this is going to be
an area of focus for me over the coming year. I've been tasked with
improving the 2-way communication between users & developers, possibly
using the wikitech-ambassadors list as a medium.

A few people have already explained the scope of the different lists,
but here's my understanding:

* wikitech-l: A high-traffic, unapologetically technical, discussion
list for developers talking to developers
* wikitech-announce: A low-traffic, plain English, announce-only list
for developers talking to Wikimedia users
* wikitech-ambassadors: A (currently) low-traffic, mostly-announce
list for developers talking to Wikimedia users
* mediawiki-announce: A low-traffic, announce-only list for developers
talking to (mostly 3rd-party) MediaWiki users
* wikimediaannounce: A low-traffic, plain English, announce-only list
for general Wikimedia usues.

And the possible change would be for wikitech-ambassadors to become a
medium-to-high-traffic, plain English, list for discussion between
developers and Wikimedia users, to report issues, share ideas and
provide feedback in unapologetically layman terms. The "Ambassadors"
part also means that users who are on that list will have a role in
disseminating information to their local communities, and reporting
back issues possibly raised on local wikis.

FYI, if you're at Wikimania this week, this 2-way communication
channel between developers and users will be a main focus of the
"Transparency" discussion with Sumana, Rob and myself on Saturday 14
at 10:30 in Room 310:
https://wikimania2012.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Transparency_and_collaboration_in_Wikimedia_engineering

I've also just noticed that there are two other talks related to this topic:

* Oliver's "Engaging the Community: What We've Tried and Where We're
Going" (Thursday July 12, 11:40, Room 310)
https://wikimania2012.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Engaging_the_Community:_What_We%27ve_Tried_and_Where_We%27re_Going

* Tilman and Max's "Movement Broadcasting - 'Stop Spamming' vs.
'Nobody Told Me" (Thursday, July 12, 14:00, Room 302)
https://wikimania2012.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Movement_Broadcasting_-_%27Stop_Spamming%27_vs._%27Nobody_Told_Me%27

If you can't attend any of those sessions, but you want to discuss /
rant / share ideas about (mis)communication between MediaWiki
developers and Wikimedia users, please come to me at any time during
the hackathon or the conference (If we don't already know each other,
my photo is on https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Staff_and_contractors
)

And if you're not at Wikimania, feel free to drop me an e-mail with
your thoughts on the subject.

-- 
Guillaume Paumier
Technical Communications Manager — Wikimedia Foundation

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