Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Fwd: [Wikiml-l] Fwd: Wiki Loves Earth winners in India

[Adethya Sudarsanan]

Ok Abirami.

Sorry missed to CC the community in my earlier responses.

Best,
Ade

On Wednesday, 10 September 2014, Abhirami G  wrote:

> I'm sending a mail to NickK, cc-ing you.
>
> On Wednesday, 10 September 2014, Adethya Sudarsanan 
> wrote:
>
>> Abirami, I have selected 10 images. How should I nominate them?
>>
>> Last time we had a wiki page where we provide the URL of the images. How
>> is it this time?
>>
>> Ade
>>
>> On Tuesday, 9 September 2014, Abhirami G  wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you!
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, 9 September 2014, Adethya Sudarsanan 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Thanks Abirami. I shall rate the images and share the results tomorrow.

 Thanks,
 Ade. S

 On Tuesday, 9 September 2014, Abhirami G  wrote:

> Well, since technically you're the only member of the jury (I have no
> experience in judging such events, and Manojk contributed to the event), I
> think you can directly nominate the top ten images. Of course, if you feel
> you need help, we can always contact the mailing list again. I'm afraid I
> can't do much other than remain in the background.
>
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Images_from_Wiki_Loves_Earth_2014_in_India
>
> Regards,
> Abhirami.
>
> On Tuesday, 9 September 2014, Adethya Sudarsanan <
> adethyas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Sounds perfect, Abirami. What should I be doing now?
>>
>> On Tuesday, 9 September 2014, Abhirami G 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I'm one of the organisers (Clockery) and while I haven't been able
>>> to do much as regards WLE apart from beginning it, I would like to help
>>> finish it off.
>>>
>>> Ade, assuming that no one else volunteers, it would be nice if you
>>> could help. As far as I know, the only person who actually contributed
>>> photos was Manojk, so it should be relatively easy.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Abhirami.
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, 9 September 2014, Adethya Sudarsanan <
>>> adethyas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 Hi, I have been on the jury for Wiki loves public art as a part of
 wikimedia Sverige.

 I would love to be on the jury to choose photos from India.

 Let me know if I can be of any assistance

 Best,
 Ade

 On Tuesday, 9 September 2014, Pradeep Mohandas <
 pradeep.mohan...@gmail.com> wrote:

> FYI
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From:* Viswanathan Prabhakaran 
> *Date:* 8 September 2014 23:23:58 IST
> *To:* wikim...@lists.wikimedia.org, Manoj Karingamadathil <
> manojkmohanme03...@gmail.com>
> *Subject:* *[Wikiml-l] Fwd: Wiki Loves Earth winners in India*
> *Reply-To:* viswapra...@wikimedia.in, Malayalam Wikimedia Project
> Mailing list 
>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Mykola Kozlenko 
> Date: Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 4:00 AM
> Subject: Wiki Loves Earth winners in India
> To: karthik...@wikimedia.in, jaya...@wikimedia.in,
> arkris...@wikimedia.in, viswapra...@wikimedia.in,
> nikita...@wikimedia.in
>
>
> Dear Board members of Wikimedia India,
>
> I am a member of Wiki Loves Earth international team, and I am
> contacting you concerning the winners of Wiki Loves Earth in India.
>
> The issue is that we are going to submit all national winners of
> Wiki Loves Earth to the international jury pretty soon (approximately 
> 10-15
> September), and we still have no information about winners from India
> (winners from other countries can be found here:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Earth_2014/Finalists
>  ).
> At the moment India is the only country without any activity: among
> countries without list of winners there the Netherlands already have 
> a list
> of winners but just don't want to publish it, while Ghana already has 
> an
> active jury and will have their top-10 photos in just a few days.
>
> Unfortunately, both organisers of WLE in India (
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Earth_2014_in_India
>  )
> seem to be inactive at the moment, and Clockery (main organiser) 
> seems to
> be a 14-year old girl who is busy at school and who can use only her
> mother's computer, thus we are not sure she had really contacted 
> anyone to
> form the Indian jury.
>
> Could you please do any of the following:
> * try to reach any of local organisers (Clockery or Manojk) and
> help them reaching jury members and organising top 10 selection. I do 

[Wikimediaindia-l] Reminder: Last day for nominating delegates for India Community Consultation

[Ravishankar]

Hi,

Just a reminderd that today (September 10) is the last day for nominating
delegates for India Community consultation.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:India_Community_Consultation_2014#Delegates

Ravi
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Ravishankar]

Hi Arun,

//Compared to the huge amount of subscribers this list has, the number of
participants has probably not exceeded 20 in the last one year//

Even for WMF's FDC proposal in Meta, only a handful of people participated.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/Wikimedia_Foundation/Proposal_form

Does that mean there is no one in the Wikimedia movement globally? :)

//This indicates that the discussions taking place here are really not
conducive for any sort of community participation.//

Mailing lists and Meta are places where community meets to discuss few
issues but the real work takes place outside these place. For a veteran
like you, I shouldn't be explaining these things.

Only less than 5% of very active contributors can grasp these
organizational issues and participating in these discussions are not their
priority.

//Lets continue to blame CIS, WMF, US dollars, fat salaries, vested
interests, experiments and everyone else for what is our collective failure
to set an example of how a community works. //

First of all, we haven't failed. Activity in most of the Indian Wikipedia
projects are business as usual or the problems they face are expected.

I have tried to explain the problems we face and the strategies we should
adopt at

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:India_Community_Consultation_2014#Opinions_2

Please feel free to discuss there.

Coming to the blaming part, I am not blaming anyone either. When we
introspect, we can only do a context based holistic analysis.

Let WMF and CIS try doing what they are doing in any mature community like
Wikimedia Germany and let us see how those communities respond :)

//If we are looking at any sort of unity, lets first pick out our own
faults before pointing the finger at others.//

Chapter's governance issues and community's unity need not be one and the
same.

I feel as a community we can still move forward if we discuss things in a
productive way instead of washing dirty linen in public.

Ravi
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Ravishankar]

Hi Pradeep,

Yes, the chapter needs to do a membership drive. It also needs to have a
membership policy to make sure that only people who genuinely work towards
the mission are enrolled. Mass enrolment without any criterion can be a
governance disaster later. However, these things are best addressed when we
actively take part in the chapter activities and push for these changes.
Criticizing from outside is not going to help. Let me know if any one here
has tried to do a membership drive and the chapter has discouraged it.

I understand your concern for the chapter representing the community. But,
we need to put things in context before criticizing the chapter.

Wikimedia Foundation is not a membership driven organization and only 3 out
of it's 10 members are directly elected by the community. Other two are
elected by the chapters.

https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Board_of_Trustees

CIS is a membership organization and it chooses to have only 8 members who
elect 3 board members.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/The_Centre_for_Internet_and_Society/Proposal_form#Clarification_about_CIS_Board_and_Rent

I have never seen anyone criticizing these agencies for lack of democracy
even though they have demonstrated shortcomings in working with the
community.

The latest example is the dissent voiced from German Wikipedia with
signatories from all over the world

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Letter_to_Wikimedia_Foundation:_Superprotect_and_Media_Viewer

Last year, English Wikipedians revolted against Visual editor

http://www.dailydot.com/news/wikipedia-visualeditor-kww-patch/

Assuming concerns on the lines of democracy are over looked for these
agencies based on their performance, then we should also view chapter on
the same lines.

Setting aside leadership, governance and financial constraints, is the
chapter capable of attracting more volunteers?

Please note that editing in Wiki and volunteering for offline efforts like
outreach and chapter work are two different things.

Indian Wikipedias face acute shortage of next generation active editors.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/andhra-pradesh/telugu-wikipedia-struggles-to-stay-afloat/article6255003.ece

Based on my experience, it will be great even if 1 among 10 very active
active editors (who make 100 edits a month) volunteer for these offline
efforts.

Most of the Indian language Wikipedians have their commitment towards the
language and bandwidth for organizational activities can only take a second
seat.

Not everyone can become a Wikipedian and not every Wikipedian can become an
effective chapter volunteer. These require different set of skills,
attitude and commitment.

Many potential volunteers have already contributed for the chapter and got
burnt out.

So, what the chapter is facing is a chicken and egg problem.

If WMF and CIS cannot make ground breaking changes with all their
expertise, resources and programs since 2011, I am amused why would anyone
hold chapter responsible for all problems.

Wikimedia India chapter is a budding organization and it will take time to
stabilize. What we are witnessing is expected behaviour only. But, most of
the recent mail threads sound very keen to do a postmortem for chapter
without any contribution towards it or any viable alternative outside of
it.

//I have been labelled an anarchist and as an often-quitter.//

I respect your personal commitments which stand in between Wikipedia
contributions but you can't be selectively anarchic :)

Ravi
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Arun Ganesh]

>
>
> //I only notice negative attitudes//
>
> Yes, it is a problem for people who want a free run experimenting in India.
>
>
Compared to the huge amount of subscribers this list has, the number of
participants has probably not exceeded 20 in the last one year.

This indicates that the discussions taking place here are really not
conducive for any sort of community participation. Lets continue to blame
CIS, WMF, US dollars, fat salaries, vested interests, experiments and
everyone else for what is our collective failure to set an example of how a
community works.

If we are looking at any sort of unity, lets first pick out our own faults
before pointing the finger at others.

"Stand up, be bold, be strong. Take the whole responsibility on your own
shoulders, and know that you are the creator of your own destiny. All the
strength and succor you want is within yourselves. Therefore, make your own
future." - *Swami Vivekananda*

-- 
 Arun Ganesh
(planemad) 
 
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Pradeep Mohandas]

Hi,

I think the Chapter should consider why it's membership base is so low. I would 
suggest that the Chapter undertake a membership drive after the elections and 
use the same to understand why the Community members are not becoming members 
of the Chapter. I believe this would be an instructive exercise for the Chapter.

I have remained member of the Chapter for these many years believing that the 
Chapter represented the Community. In the last few weeks many community members 
I knew are not members of the Chapter. I also learnt that the number of people 
eligible to vote in this election stands at 30 members and that the whole 
membership list has about 130 members. The other 100 members are ineligible to 
vote since they joined in April or so. Many members also failed to renew their 
memberships. 

I have resigned from membership of the Chapter and will only join again when 
*I* believe that the Chapter is representative of the Community.

I have been labelled an anarchist and as an often-quitter. I think the 
Wikimedia movement is anarchistic in its very nature. I am an often-quitter 
too. So, I do not deny these charges. I say what I think I have to say. You all 
have the choice of choosing to listen to it or not. I do not take that freedom 
away from you and I thank you for the freedom you grant an anarchist and an 
often-quitter.

Warm regards,
Pradeep Mohandas

Sent from my iPhone

> On 09-Sep-2014, at 15:12, Gerard Meijssen  wrote:
> 
> Hoi,
> Ok.. so explain to me why the chapter is not able to provide funding for 
> viable projects. Do remember that the qualifiers for funding are essentially 
> the same; they have to pass the requirements of the WMF. When the chapter has 
> its own independent funding, it can allocate as it sees fit.
> 
> I seriously do not understand what drives you. I only notice negative 
> attitudes, I do not understand how you think a chapter should/could operate. 
> The only thing I notice is how you blame others for the woes of the Indian 
> chapter and as a consequence attack and thereby destroy opportunities that 
> become lost for now for India,
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
> 
>> On 8 September 2014 15:22, Ravishankar  wrote:
>> Hi, 
>> 
>> * Chapter, user groups and online wikimedia project communities need not be 
>> mutually exclusive.
>> 
>> * A user group need not be created just for the sake of it without clear 
>> idea of the problem that it intends to solve and which cannot be solved by 
>> other already available means.
>> 
>> For example, forming a Tamil Wikimedia user group in SriLanka will make 
>> sense as we have legal and financial restrictions of spending India 
>> chapter's money in other countries. But, there is no need felt to start a 
>> Tamil Wikimedia user group in Tamilnadu.
>> 
>> Will a global Tamil user group like 
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Esperanto_kaj_Libera_Scio help?
>> 
>> May be. But, it isn't a pressing need. Whenever we come up with a project or 
>> grant request, it is well supported already by WMF and Wikimedia India. 
>> 
>> Please also note that for a country like India, a registered and legal 
>> entity like chapter is very essential. Because, without a letter pad and 
>> official seal, we can't enter many places. And without such entities, we 
>> can't conduct mega projects with big budgets (Individuals who receive money 
>> on behalf of communities or user groups will face tax audit issues. And the 
>> process needs to be repeatedly done every time by a new individual)
>> 
>> * A user group will help when they operate across multiple projects and 
>> regions. For example, GLAM volunteers and Mediawiki hackers. But, I see this 
>> as a convenience as to organize the volunteers themselves formally than as a 
>> requirement to operate outside other entities like chapter, especially when 
>> they are willing to support them. 
>> 
>> * Please note that many of the current and waiting to be approved user 
>> groups are just incubators for future chapters. We will be going backwards 
>> if we dissolve the chapter and split into user groups.
>> 
>> * Yes, Wikimedia India chapter could have fared better. But, I wouldn't 
>> blame it or any single person or EC. Like any Wikimedia project, it can only 
>> become better with more participation, collaboration and emergence of 
>> natural leadership. For a complex country like India, it will take time. 7 
>> members of EC are not super humans and they are not supposed to do all the 
>> work by themselves. Any such expectation set by themselves or from the 
>> members should be reconsidered. In my personal experience interacting with 
>> the chapter, they have always supported us in all ways possible. Only if the 
>> chapter stands in the way of any aspiring member / community's plan, it 
>> should be highlighted and discussed. 
>> 
>> * The chapter is already as democratic as it could be by design. In fact, 
>> most of it's problems stem from that and not because of lack of democracy

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Ravishankar]

Gerard,

//so explain to me why the chapter is not able to provide funding for
viable projects.//

The problem is very simple. Chapter can fund only if it has the money.

Last year's chapter's total  budget was around 18 lakh INR and the amount
of microgrants they can give for communities will be obviously limited. If
someone or a community comes up with a request of few lakh INR and that too
within a short period of time, they cannot support even if it follows all
regulations of WMF.

For Tamil Wikipedia, chapter has always supported whenever we asked support
within reasonable limits it can support. Towards 10th year celebrations of
Tamil Wikipedia, they did give 22,160 INR we requested.

India has Wikimedia projects in 20 languages. Many of these languages have
many projects like Wiktionary, Wikisource. So, they also need to give a
reasonable share for all these projects instead of spending all in few
communities.

Any criticism should consider this aspect.

//I seriously do not understand what drives you.//

Ditto. I wonder if you have an email filter triggering attention everytime
CIS is mentioned ;)

//I only notice negative attitudes//

Yes, it is a problem for people who want a free run experimenting in India.

// I do not understand how you think a chapter should/could operate.//

I have shared my vision for future of Wikimedia India at

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:India_Community_Consultation_2014#Opinions_2

Please feel free to discuss there.

//The only thing I notice is how you blame others for the woes of the
Indian chapter and as a consequence attack and thereby destroy
opportunities that become lost for now for India,//

If you follow the spirit of the movement, let me challenge you to urge WMF
to come up with an worldwide community discussion on supporting
non-community agencies like CIS in competition with local chapters and then
implement it for all countries.

Ravi
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
Ok.. so explain to me why the chapter is not able to provide funding for
viable projects. Do remember that the qualifiers for funding are
essentially the same; they have to pass the requirements of the WMF. When
the chapter has its own independent funding, it can allocate as it sees fit.

I seriously do not understand what drives you. I only notice negative
attitudes, I do not understand how you think a chapter should/could
operate. The only thing I notice is how you blame others for the woes of
the Indian chapter and as a consequence attack and thereby destroy
opportunities that become lost for now for India,
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 8 September 2014 15:22, Ravishankar  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> * Chapter, user groups and online wikimedia project communities need not
> be mutually exclusive.
>
> * A user group need not be created just for the sake of it without clear
> idea of the problem that it intends to solve and which cannot be solved by
> other already available means.
>
> For example, forming a Tamil Wikimedia user group in SriLanka will make
> sense as we have legal and financial restrictions of spending India
> chapter's money in other countries. But, there is no need felt to start a
> Tamil Wikimedia user group in Tamilnadu.
>
> Will a global Tamil user group like
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Esperanto_kaj_Libera_Scio help?
>
> May be. But, it isn't a pressing need. Whenever we come up with a project
> or grant request, it is well supported already by WMF and Wikimedia India.
>
> Please also note that for a country like India, a registered and legal
> entity like chapter is very essential. Because, without a letter pad and
> official seal, we can't enter many places. And without such entities, we
> can't conduct mega projects with big budgets (Individuals who receive money
> on behalf of communities or user groups will face tax audit issues. And the
> process needs to be repeatedly done every time by a new individual)
>
> * A user group will help when they operate across multiple projects and
> regions. For example, GLAM volunteers and Mediawiki hackers. But, I see
> this as a convenience as to organize the volunteers themselves formally
> than as a requirement to operate outside other entities like chapter,
> especially when they are willing to support them.
>
> * Please note that many of the current and waiting to be approved user
> groups are just incubators for future chapters. We will be going backwards
> if we dissolve the chapter and split into user groups.
>
> * Yes, Wikimedia India chapter could have fared better. But, I wouldn't
> blame it or any single person or EC. Like any Wikimedia project, it can
> only become better with more participation, collaboration and emergence of
> natural leadership. For a complex country like India, it will take time. 7
> members of EC are not super humans and they are not supposed to do all the
> work by themselves. Any such expectation set by themselves or from the
> members should be reconsidered. In my personal experience interacting with
> the chapter, they have always supported us in all ways possible. Only if
> the chapter stands in the way of any aspiring member / community's plan, it
> should be highlighted and discussed.
>
> * The chapter is already as democratic as it could be by design. In fact,
> most of it's problems stem from that and not because of lack of democracy.
> Other players in the movement like WMF or their working partners like CIS
> don't have this issue while chapters have to face this issue. So, it is
> unfair to judge chapter's performance without considering this crucial
> aspect.
>
> * Whatever be the structural setup we might agree, it is not going to
> solve all issues. We need to think with it and also outside the box.
>
> * I am surprised that no one highlighted the impact of non-community
> organizations like CIS in the movement.
>
> Once, I asked an active Indian Wikimedian who initiated many chapter
> events and then started collaborating with CIS, why he made this transition.
>
> His answer:
>
> "Chapter doesn't give us money. CIS gives money".
>
> And there you see, how in the name of language community strategy of WMF
> through CIS has bifurcated the community.
>
> This, in my view, is a bigger issue that needs to be addressed.
>
> Ravi
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Many user groups instead of One Chapter?

[Jayanta Nath]

+Viswapraba, if we works under one umbrella instead of creating
 thousand "user group", we can flourish better way!  Although WMI chapter &
users group , both are necessary !  But I can say that users group may be
die after inactive of main initiator  , WMI chapter will not.

Regards,
Jayanta Nath
President
Wikimedia India Chapter


On Tuesday, September 9, 2014, Arun Ganesh  wrote:

>
>> > Do I need permission from the chapter to start a Wikipedia editors club
>> in my neighbourhood?
>>
>> To answer just this simple, technical question: no, there is no
>> restriction, and any group is welcome to seek recognition independently of
>> the chapter, and does not need its permission.
>>
>> See here:
>>
>> https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Step-by-step_user_group_creation_guide
>>
> Thanks Asaf, that was helpful.
>
>
> --
>  Arun Ganesh
> (planemad) 
>  
>
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