Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Tulu WIkipedia 2nd anniversary

[balaji]

Best wishes..!!

J. Balaji

On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 8:56 AM  wrote:

> Greetings on 2nd anniversary of Tulu Wikipedia becoming live. Tulu
> Wikipedia URL - tcy.wikipedia.org  Thanks to all
> volunteers who made it possible
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Pavanaja
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

Thanks Yohann for creating separate thread for discussion other than the
main topic of this thread.

Sticking to the thread topic, I am more eager to get a reply from WMIN for
my 5 questions, which I have put in this thread yesterday. I hope you will
find them among the diverted, off-topic and unrelated discussions going on.

My questions were pretty straightforward, and I do expect straightforward
answers for them, not receiving them till now is obviously frustrating.

Eagerly waiting for your reply
Bodhisattwa

On Mon, 6 Aug 2018, 09:17 Yohann Thomas,  wrote:

> Dear Manavpreet
>
> You have been part of the Indian community for a few years. But I'm not
> surprised, you don't know, why the chapter is not giving as much  support
> or training to the community, as CIS-A2K does.
>
> I will answer this question on a separate thread on the India Mailing list
> which should be informative for you & other community members who have such
> doubts.
>
> Regards,
> Yohann
>
> On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 16:54 Dr. Manavpreet Kaur, <
> dr.manavpreetk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Asaf, Wikimedia India community members and CIS A2K Team,
>>
>> I am sorry for intervening in this whole discussion but I feel the
>> discussion is deviating from the primary concern as we have received
>> another mail where a number of concerns have been raised in response to the
>> primary issue raised by Bodhi. My subscription was faulty and thanks to
>> Sailesh who fixed it and I got a digest of emails. From what I've learned
>> through the emails, Wikimedia India representatives are usually sent to
>> attend the annual wiki gatherings like Wikimedia Conference and this time
>> it was Wikimania. I am sorry to state that we (community) have never been
>> approached by anyone from the Chapter to discuss issues, events, Training
>> or to offer some assistance.  We have only one point of contact for all our
>> issues and plans and that is CIS A2K Team. When Wikimedia India Chapter is
>> not taking initiatives to bring the communities together or to take the
>> movement ahead, then what is the purpose of their representatives attending
>> these events, what do they have to impart to other wikimedians there?  and
>> how are they using the learnings in progressing the movement?
>> Can someone please clearly address these questions and then we can
>> discuss the other issues raised in the different thread.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Manavpreet Kaur
>>
>> On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 3:42 PM, Amritasya Putra <
>> iamamritasyapu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Why doesn’t my email reach this list? I have been a member for, like
>>> three years.
>>>
>>> On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 10:00 AM, Asaf Bartov 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Certainly, we can wait. But please understand I did not assert WMIN (or
 anyone) needs to apologize. Please reread and you'll find I posed it in a
 conditional, as *one* possible outcome of resolving Bodhisattwa's concern.
 I also described another possible scenario.

 A.

 On Aug 3, 2018 06:21, "Abhinav srivastava" 
 wrote:

 Hello Asaf,

 In consent with my last mail on the thread, please be assured, no
 discussion whatsoever will take place until WMIN replies to the concerns,
 the community takes its time to question, inspect and interrogate the
 matter. Yes, all other issues will be raised on a separate thread and in
 good spirit only after this matter is resolved. As Subhashish pointed out,
 the issue is not about one person or an institution but bettering the
 process. That is essentially the reason they had been brought up.

 Asaf, It is always nice to hear from you. You have always followed the
 Indian community closely and helped it in whatever way. We all appreciate
 that.  I would look forward to hearing about the better methodological
 processes of debates and discussions on resolving community matter. This
 would also help us in the future course. The Indian community is
 progressing in resolving its disputes in a peaceful and coherent manner and
 we wish to learn more of this.

 In continuity with my second paragraph, it would be great if you guide
 us on this. This would make the community inclusive and self-sustaining. I
 am not very happy that when the matter is sub-judice in the people's court,
 you holding WMF office, is talking about on ways WMIN can apologize. To
 re-iterate, provide us with methodological solutions and leave the
 community to decide.

 Also, I am not sure since you holding WMF office should advise about
 distractions.concerning the second point clearly deals with conflicts in
 Wikimedia Foundation policy. Of course, the platform could be a reason and
 for that, we will make sure we do not jump across topics. In fact, when we
 move ahead on those issues (only after resolving the principal problem) I
 would encourage you to be a participant (representing WMF). There 

[Wikimediaindia-l] Answer to Manavpreet's question to why Wikimedia India Chapter is not taking initiatives to bring the communities together or to take the movement ahead as much as CIS-A2K

[Yohann Thomas]

DISCLAIMER: My following email is being sent as a volunteer and community
member & not as a board member of Wikimedia India.

Dear Manavpreet & other community members

I will try my best to answer this question using comparative analysis, why
this is happening & will be very informative for you & others.. Who have
this query..  & i obviously would want other community members to chip in,
in case u miss something out.

*CIS-A2K*

*Employees : *7 (full time & part time)
[I would also like to mention that for administrative work of any
organization like Financial audit, bookkeeping & meeting statutory
obligations, these 7 team members are not involved & to perform those
duties & the team of finance & administration team CIS is involved.So, we
can say total. Of
7+4=11 employees]
(Reference : https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/CIS-A2K/Team
https://cis-india.org/about/people/our-team)

*Funds received from **from WMF for the year 2017-18* : 180,000 ISD
(1,20,00,000 INR)
(Reference :
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/FDC_recommendations/2016-2017_round_2
)

Note:CIS receives funds from many other donors, but we are talking here
specifically of CIS-A2K team, whose annual plan is funded by the APG

*Wikimedia India* (WMIN)
*Employees : 0*

Board members:7
 (All Board members are unpaid volunteers who have their own professional
lives apart from running the chapter)
[I would also like to mention that all these board members are also
involved in administrative work of the organization like Financial audit,
bookkeeping & meeting statutory obligations & WMIN has no special staff for
this]

(Reference : http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Executive_Committee_Members)

*Funds received from WMF for the year 2017-18 :* 0 INR
(I must mention that Board members have applied for Rapid grants from WMF
to organise workshops & events)

Now, why hasn't Wikimedia India not received funds from WMF & the problems
pertaining to that has already been discussed in previous mails & community
members, who are curious, can look up the India mailing list archives, but
inspite of all adversities, Wikimedia India has a very active board who are
managing with whatever little resources the chapter has, using their time &
sometimes even their own money to organise events.

Manav, I somewhat agree with your point that the chapter is not taking as
many initiatives as much as CIS-A2K, to take the movement ahead, & yes to
some point, there is a big disconnect between the community & the chapter.
But, I see an opportunity here for you & many others who see this problem,
and can be very vital to bridge this disconnect & be part of Wikimedia
India on an active basis.

Now Im sure, you must be thinking , that you are a part of Punjabi User
group, that I'm doing well in my user group, why would i want be part of
the chapter Well i would say that you can be part of a national
identity.. Fix the system & take the chapter ahead, as a binding force
between the user groups of India.

I therefore request you & all others to be part of Wikimedia India on an
active basis. Personally, I feel that the Chapter, in entity, truly
represents what it means to be a Wikimedian & it is like every Wikimedian
around the world, who put in its time & resources to spread the sum of
knowledge.

Regards,
Yohann

--

On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 16:54 Dr. Manavpreet Kaur, 
wrote:

> Hi Asaf, Wikimedia India community members and CIS A2K Team,
>
> I am sorry for intervening in this whole discussion but I feel the
> discussion is deviating from the primary concern as we have received
> another mail where a number of concerns have been raised in response to the
> primary issue raised by Bodhi. My subscription was faulty and thanks to
> Sailesh who fixed it and I got a digest of emails. From what I've learned
> through the emails, Wikimedia India representatives are usually sent to
> attend the annual wiki gatherings like Wikimedia Conference and this time
> it was Wikimania. I am sorry to state that we (community) have never been
> approached by anyone from the Chapter to discuss issues, events, Training
> or to offer some assistance.  We have only one point of contact for all our
> issues and plans and that is CIS A2K Team. When Wikimedia India Chapter is
> not taking initiatives to bring the communities together or to take the
> movement ahead, then what is the purpose of their representatives attending
> these events, what do they have to impart to other wikimedians there?  and
> how are they using the learnings in progressing the movement?
> Can someone please clearly address these questions and then we can discuss
> the other issues raised in the different thread.
>
> Regards,
> Manavpreet Kaur
>
> On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 3:42 PM, Amritasya Putra <
> iamamritasyapu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Why doesn’t my email reach this list? I have been a member for, like
>> three years.
>>
>> On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 10:00 AM, Asaf Bartov 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Certainly, we can wait. But please 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Yohann Thomas]

Dear Manavpreet

You have been part of the Indian community for a few years. But I'm not
surprised, you don't know, why the chapter is not giving as much  support
or training to the community, as CIS-A2K does.

I will answer this question on a separate thread on the India Mailing list
which should be informative for you & other community members who have such
doubts.

Regards,
Yohann

On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 16:54 Dr. Manavpreet Kaur, 
wrote:

> Hi Asaf, Wikimedia India community members and CIS A2K Team,
>
> I am sorry for intervening in this whole discussion but I feel the
> discussion is deviating from the primary concern as we have received
> another mail where a number of concerns have been raised in response to the
> primary issue raised by Bodhi. My subscription was faulty and thanks to
> Sailesh who fixed it and I got a digest of emails. From what I've learned
> through the emails, Wikimedia India representatives are usually sent to
> attend the annual wiki gatherings like Wikimedia Conference and this time
> it was Wikimania. I am sorry to state that we (community) have never been
> approached by anyone from the Chapter to discuss issues, events, Training
> or to offer some assistance.  We have only one point of contact for all our
> issues and plans and that is CIS A2K Team. When Wikimedia India Chapter is
> not taking initiatives to bring the communities together or to take the
> movement ahead, then what is the purpose of their representatives attending
> these events, what do they have to impart to other wikimedians there?  and
> how are they using the learnings in progressing the movement?
> Can someone please clearly address these questions and then we can discuss
> the other issues raised in the different thread.
>
> Regards,
> Manavpreet Kaur
>
> On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 3:42 PM, Amritasya Putra <
> iamamritasyapu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Why doesn’t my email reach this list? I have been a member for, like
>> three years.
>>
>> On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 10:00 AM, Asaf Bartov 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Certainly, we can wait. But please understand I did not assert WMIN (or
>>> anyone) needs to apologize. Please reread and you'll find I posed it in a
>>> conditional, as *one* possible outcome of resolving Bodhisattwa's concern.
>>> I also described another possible scenario.
>>>
>>> A.
>>>
>>> On Aug 3, 2018 06:21, "Abhinav srivastava"  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Asaf,
>>>
>>> In consent with my last mail on the thread, please be assured, no
>>> discussion whatsoever will take place until WMIN replies to the concerns,
>>> the community takes its time to question, inspect and interrogate the
>>> matter. Yes, all other issues will be raised on a separate thread and in
>>> good spirit only after this matter is resolved. As Subhashish pointed out,
>>> the issue is not about one person or an institution but bettering the
>>> process. That is essentially the reason they had been brought up.
>>>
>>> Asaf, It is always nice to hear from you. You have always followed the
>>> Indian community closely and helped it in whatever way. We all appreciate
>>> that.  I would look forward to hearing about the better methodological
>>> processes of debates and discussions on resolving community matter. This
>>> would also help us in the future course. The Indian community is
>>> progressing in resolving its disputes in a peaceful and coherent manner and
>>> we wish to learn more of this.
>>>
>>> In continuity with my second paragraph, it would be great if you guide
>>> us on this. This would make the community inclusive and self-sustaining. I
>>> am not very happy that when the matter is sub-judice in the people's court,
>>> you holding WMF office, is talking about on ways WMIN can apologize. To
>>> re-iterate, provide us with methodological solutions and leave the
>>> community to decide.
>>>
>>> Also, I am not sure since you holding WMF office should advise about
>>> distractions.concerning the second point clearly deals with conflicts in
>>> Wikimedia Foundation policy. Of course, the platform could be a reason and
>>> for that, we will make sure we do not jump across topics. In fact, when we
>>> move ahead on those issues (only after resolving the principal problem) I
>>> would encourage you to be a participant (representing WMF). There are few
>>> essentially questions concerning few community members regarding WMF
>>> policies which I may share with you personally, whatever you find
>>> appropriate can be further asked on the community mailing list.
>>>
>>> At last, I have spoken to different EC members. Two EC members have also
>>> written to me stating that they will reply about WMIN stand. They have
>>> assured me that they will reply as soon as possible. As a past EC member, I
>>> would like to tell, finalizing a WMIN stand takes some time since EC
>>> members need to discuss, deliberate and then provide to their consent. As
>>> you all are aware unlike CIS-A2K or WMF, Wikimedia India is a voluntary
>>> organization, EC 

[Wikimediaindia-l] Tulu WIkipedia 2nd anniversary

[pavanaja]

Greetings on 2nd anniversary of Tulu Wikipedia becoming live. Tulu Wikipedia 
URL - tcy.wikipedia.org   Thanks to all volunteers who 
made it possible

 

Regards,

Pavanaja

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Dr. Manavpreet Kaur]

Hi Abhinav
Thanks for the clarification. It’s not in other list because we emailed
them about the scholarship status and requested to withdraw the submission.
Again, this wasn’t a complaint, just a concern about lack of information on
such financial assistance program. Anyhow, we had many other active
Wikimedians in the group who are working on the plans and taking the
movement ahead :)
Thanks
Manav

On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 at 12:26 AM, Abhinav srivastava 
wrote:

> Hi Dr Manavpreet,
>
> It is unfortunate that you couldn’t present. Yes ! Transparency and
> effective messaging that one can approach affiliates for grants, in cases
> has been lacking in our community. It is not about any office bearer, I am
> sure CIS would have been neutral in making this judgement.
>
> Also, let’s take your SAARC idea ahead.
>
> Is this your submission ?
>
> https://wikimania2017.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Past,_present_and_Future_of_Wiki_Movement_in_Developing_countries:_A_SAARC_perspective
>
>
> I am not sure because it says submission under review. For selected
> submissions you can find another category. Maybe, I am wrong on this one.
> The way they have designed and put out categories it is difficult to sort.
> It could be that you didn’t receive the scholarship hence they didn’t put a
> tick mark.
>
> Dr Manavpreet Kaur, No special benefits for any office bearer. Your case
> should have been considered.
>
> Abhinav
>
> On Sunday, August 5, 2018, Dr. Manavpreet Kaur <
> dr.manavpreetk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>> First of all, why is everyone else other than the one being questioned
>> addressing the mail?
>> As Abhinav said, If this is about voicing our opinions and concerns on a
>> public mailing list, I’d like to bring something to your notice and seek
>> your opinions on the same. In 2017, I and Stalinjeet went to Wikimedia
>> Conference, Berlin. There we had an informal SAARC MEETUP and later we were
>> all in the Strategy Discussion Team (as team no. 17), we discussed the
>> issues SAARC Communities are facing and the kind of practices which might
>> work well for the growth of our communities. Based on the discussions and
>> inputs from the members from different communities (SAARC as well as global
>> communities), we prepared a report and proposed the same for presentation
>> at Wikimania, 2017. The presentation was shortlisted, but as both of us
>> were not selected for the scholarship, we had to withdraw our submission as
>> we were not aware of any such funding assistance being offered by CIS-A2K.
>> This is not a complaint but a question that is this financial assistance
>> available only for some specific position holders or is open to all the
>> Wikimedians? and If this assistance is being offered to the Wikimedians,
>> why there was no formal notice about the same?
>>
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[Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Abhinav srivastava]

Hi Dr Manavpreet,

It is unfortunate that you couldn’t present. Yes ! Transparency and
effective messaging that one can approach affiliates for grants, in cases
has been lacking in our community. It is not about any office bearer, I am
sure CIS would have been neutral in making this judgement.

Also, let’s take your SAARC idea ahead.

Is this your submission ?
https://wikimania2017.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Past,_present_and_
Future_of_Wiki_Movement_in_Developing_countries:_A_SAARC_perspective


I am not sure because it says submission under review. For selected
submissions you can find another category. Maybe, I am wrong on this one.
The way they have designed and put out categories it is difficult to sort.
It could be that you didn’t receive the scholarship hence they didn’t put a
tick mark.

Dr Manavpreet Kaur, No special benefits for any office bearer. Your case
should have been considered.

Abhinav

On Sunday, August 5, 2018, Dr. Manavpreet Kaur 
wrote:

> Hi everyone,
> First of all, why is everyone else other than the one being questioned
> addressing the mail?
> As Abhinav said, If this is about voicing our opinions and concerns on a
> public mailing list, I’d like to bring something to your notice and seek
> your opinions on the same. In 2017, I and Stalinjeet went to Wikimedia
> Conference, Berlin. There we had an informal SAARC MEETUP and later we were
> all in the Strategy Discussion Team (as team no. 17), we discussed the
> issues SAARC Communities are facing and the kind of practices which might
> work well for the growth of our communities. Based on the discussions and
> inputs from the members from different communities (SAARC as well as global
> communities), we prepared a report and proposed the same for presentation
> at Wikimania, 2017. The presentation was shortlisted, but as both of us
> were not selected for the scholarship, we had to withdraw our submission as
> we were not aware of any such funding assistance being offered by CIS-A2K.
> This is not a complaint but a question that is this financial assistance
> available only for some specific position holders or is open to all the
> Wikimedians? and If this assistance is being offered to the Wikimedians,
> why there was no formal notice about the same?
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Dr. Manavpreet Kaur]

Hi everyone,
First of all, why is everyone else other than the one being questioned
addressing the mail?
As Abhinav said, If this is about voicing our opinions and concerns on a
public mailing list, I’d like to bring something to your notice and seek
your opinions on the same. In 2017, I and Stalinjeet went to Wikimedia
Conference, Berlin. There we had an informal SAARC MEETUP and later we were
all in the Strategy Discussion Team (as team no. 17), we discussed the
issues SAARC Communities are facing and the kind of practices which might
work well for the growth of our communities. Based on the discussions and
inputs from the members from different communities (SAARC as well as global
communities), we prepared a report and proposed the same for presentation
at Wikimania, 2017. The presentation was shortlisted, but as both of us
were not selected for the scholarship, we had to withdraw our submission as
we were not aware of any such funding assistance being offered by CIS-A2K.
This is not a complaint but a question that is this financial assistance
available only for some specific position holders or is open to all the
Wikimedians? and If this assistance is being offered to the Wikimedians,
why there was no formal notice about the same?
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Subhashish Panigrahi]

Subhashish

> On Aug 5, 2018, at 8:40 PM, Abhinav srivastava  wrote:
> 
> Hello Bodhisattwa, 
> 
> I won't be available from tomorrow onwards as stated in my previous mail. I 
> would like to reply to Subhashish, this evening. 
> 
> I am a bit surprised because of I when I wrote a clarification you simply 
> discarded and wrote, "Let WMIN reply". As advised to you on Wikimania mailing 
> list, it would have been better if you had raised these directly with the EC. 
> Since it is on a public mailing list, I am free to voice my opinion. 
> 
> Responses to Subhashish in line. 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 8:13 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal 
>>  wrote:
>> Hi Abhinav,
>> 
>> Please stop diverting the topic. If those other discussions are important 
>> for you, please start separate new threads. My questions were directed to 
>> WMIN, please let them respond.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Bodhisattwa
>> 
>>> On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 19:55 Subhashish Panigrahi,  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Subhashish
>>> 
 On Aug 5, 2018, at 7:06 PM, Abhinav srivastava  
 wrote:
 
 Hello Subhashish, 
 
 I would put a few of my reflections. Responses in line. 
 
> On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 6:15 PM Subhashish Panigrahi 
>  wrote:
> Just to clarify, my responses below are not about Rahul at all but in 
> general -
 Yes ! The issue is much larger.  
> 
> What Bodhi wrote earlier makes sense, “participation for chairpersons 
> meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an 
> informal meetup”. A Wikimania participant gets to attend many such 
> informal meetups, and I’d like to believe that they certainly add value 
> to the movement. But participation in such small little occasion (not 
> small as less worthy but small as compared to a large formal event) does 
> not really justify a 3-4 day-long travel which affects one’s 
> personal/work life (as you rightly put it).
 I believe judgements should only be made based on objectivity.  I am not 
 too sure if being a speaker on a global platform can be called upon as a 
 'such small little occassion'. Then, how do we make judgements ?
>>> No judgements. Still stand by my words. Speaking slot in an ‘informal 
>>> meetup’ that is attended by a small set of people is smaller than a formal 
>>> talk in a formal event. But then, many Wikimedians whose talks and 
>>> workshops get selected at Wikimania don’t get a chance to attend Wikimania 
>>> in the first place for various reasons.
> I would like to hear and learn more about what calls this an informal meetup.
Something that is not in the main Wikimania schedule as an open event for all 
during the three days during the scheduled sessions. Being in a physical space 
gives communities an opportunity to get together and discuss. It’s no less 
valuable though. But arguing that someone’s travel is valid for participation 
in one such meeting is a bit too much.

Just because it is an Affiliate Meetup, it begins to hold little relevance. I 
am not of this opinion. 
> 
> This is the first time  Wikimedia India person was called to speak and so 
> much controversy over it. While the International Mailing List largely calls 
> this issue 'not-required', our very own Indians have an issue with it. 
> 
> I would like to place on record, when Wikimedia India had funds, the Chapter 
> annual plans endorsed by community stated one individual from the community 
> and one executive commitee member. But the Chapter stayed firm in recognising 
> the importance of the community and used to sponser both spots to its 
> community members. 
>  
> On an invitation, executive commitee member visited and so much issues. 
> 
 Through reports, learning patterns, minutes of the meeting etc. In fact, 
 we all such contemplate on the reports and learning patterns as found on 
 the Meta Page. It clearly states how this agenda would be further worked 
 upon and then taken up in the next meeting. We all should give 
 suggestions. Thank You, Subhashish for bringing up the issue of reporting. 
 
 Also, Subhashish, now that you have appropriate bandwidth, I believe 
 refelctions on the Bengaluru meetup can be done.
>>> I never said I have the appropriate bandwidth now. :) In fact, I’m trying 
>>> to reflect on something that is recent - Wikimania - with the community. 
>>> The Bangalore meeting is no longer a priority for me at the moment. I 
>>> shared the notes with the community right after the meeting.
> 
> Yes ! You did not said so. I apologise for that. Since you were voicing over 
> the Internet I though so. Sorry Agian, about that. 
> Thank You for recognising that Bengaluru meeting is no longer a priority. 
> Being a party to one episode and simultaneously voicing your concerns on 
> another episode. I am confused on this. 
I was a participant. There was an Etherpad (I can search it when online from 
computer but others who were there in 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Abhinav srivastava]

Hello Bodhisattwa,

I won't be available from tomorrow onwards as stated in my previous mail. I
would like to reply to Subhashish, this evening.

I am a bit surprised because of I when I wrote a clarification you simply
discarded and wrote, "Let WMIN reply". As advised to you on Wikimania
mailing list, it would have been better if you had raised these directly
with the EC. Since it is on a public mailing list, I am free to voice my
opinion.

Responses to Subhashish in line.



On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 8:13 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <
bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Abhinav,
>
> Please stop diverting the topic. If those other discussions are important
> for you, please start separate new threads. My questions were directed to
> WMIN, please let them respond.
>
> Thanks,
> Bodhisattwa
>
> On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 19:55 Subhashish Panigrahi, 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Subhashish
>>
>> On Aug 5, 2018, at 7:06 PM, Abhinav srivastava 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello Subhashish,
>>
>> I would put a few of my reflections. Responses in line.
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 6:15 PM Subhashish Panigrahi <
>> psubhash...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Just to clarify, my responses below are not about Rahul at all but in
>>> general -
>>>
>> Yes ! The issue is much larger.
>>
>>>
>>> What Bodhi wrote earlier makes sense, “participation for chairpersons
>>> meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an
>>> informal meetup”. A Wikimania participant gets to attend many such informal
>>> meetups, and I’d like to believe that they certainly add value to the
>>> movement. But participation in such small little occasion (not small as
>>> less worthy but small as compared to a large formal event) does not really
>>> justify a 3-4 day-long travel which affects one’s personal/work life (as
>>> you rightly put it).
>>>
>> I believe judgements should only be made based on objectivity.  I am not
>> too sure if being a speaker on a global platform can be called upon as a
>> 'such small little occassion'. Then, how do we make judgements ?
>>
>> No judgements. Still stand by my words. Speaking slot in an ‘informal
>> meetup’ that is attended by a small set of people is smaller than a formal
>> talk in a formal event. But then, many Wikimedians whose talks and
>> workshops get selected at Wikimania don’t get a chance to attend Wikimania
>> in the first place for various reasons.
>>
> I would like to hear and learn more about what calls this an informal
meetup. Just because it is an Affiliate Meetup, it begins to hold little
relevance. I am not of this opinion.
This is the first time  Wikimedia India person was called to speak and so
much controversy over it. While the International Mailing List largely
calls this issue 'not-required', our very own Indians have an issue with
it.

I would like to place on record, when Wikimedia India had funds, the
Chapter annual plans endorsed by community stated one individual from the
community and one executive commitee member. But the Chapter stayed firm in
recognising the importance of the community and used to sponser both spots
to its community members.

On an invitation, executive commitee member visited and so much issues.

Through reports, learning patterns, minutes of the meeting etc. In fact, we
>> all such contemplate on the reports and learning patterns as found on the
>> Meta Page. It clearly states how this agenda would be further worked upon
>> and then taken up in the next meeting. We all should give suggestions.
>> Thank You, Subhashish for bringing up the issue of reporting.
>>
>> Also, Subhashish, now that you have appropriate bandwidth, I believe
>> refelctions on the Bengaluru meetup can be done.
>>
>> I never said I have the appropriate bandwidth now. :) In fact, I’m trying
>> to reflect on something that is recent - Wikimania - with the community.
>> The Bangalore meeting is no longer a priority for me at the moment. I
>> shared the notes with the community right after the meeting.
>>
>
Yes ! You did not said so. I apologise for that. Since you were voicing
over the Internet I though so. Sorry Agian, about that.
Thank You for recognising that Bengaluru meeting is no longer a priority.
Being a party to one episode and simultaneously voicing your concerns on
another episode. I am confused on this.

Don't mind but can you please share relevant links

>
>> I thought I shared the fact that I had shared the discussions with my own
>> community.
>>
>> It would be a great learning experience for delegrates attending next
>> year Wikimedia Conference. :) .   Please Note : No Attempts to deviate
>> from the topic.
>>
>> It’s clearly deviating from the main topic. Better to start a new thread
>> instead.
>>
> Okay. Your Concerns Understood.

>
>>> Also, I personally think that if a question is directed towards an
>>> organization, it’s better to wait for sometime until they get back. We, as
>>> a community, have quite some time now until next Wikimania to set a better
>>> standard and fix if 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

Hi Abhinav,

Please stop diverting the topic. If those other discussions are important
for you, please start separate new threads. My questions were directed to
WMIN, please let them respond.

Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 19:55 Subhashish Panigrahi, 
wrote:

>
>
> Subhashish
>
> On Aug 5, 2018, at 7:06 PM, Abhinav srivastava 
> wrote:
>
> Hello Subhashish,
>
> I would put a few of my reflections. Responses in line.
>
> On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 6:15 PM Subhashish Panigrahi 
> wrote:
>
>> Just to clarify, my responses below are not about Rahul at all but in
>> general -
>>
> Yes ! The issue is much larger.
>
>>
>> What Bodhi wrote earlier makes sense, “participation for chairpersons
>> meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an
>> informal meetup”. A Wikimania participant gets to attend many such informal
>> meetups, and I’d like to believe that they certainly add value to the
>> movement. But participation in such small little occasion (not small as
>> less worthy but small as compared to a large formal event) does not really
>> justify a 3-4 day-long travel which affects one’s personal/work life (as
>> you rightly put it).
>>
> I believe judgements should only be made based on objectivity.  I am not
> too sure if being a speaker on a global platform can be called upon as a
> 'such small little occassion'. Then, how do we make judgements ?
>
> No judgements. Still stand by my words. Speaking slot in an ‘informal
> meetup’ that is attended by a small set of people is smaller than a formal
> talk in a formal event. But then, many Wikimedians whose talks and
> workshops get selected at Wikimania don’t get a chance to attend Wikimania
> in the first place for various reasons.
>
> Through reports, learning patterns, minutes of the meeting etc. In fact,
> we all such contemplate on the reports and learning patterns as found on
> the Meta Page. It clearly states how this agenda would be further worked
> upon and then taken up in the next meeting. We all should give suggestions.
> Thank You, Subhashish for bringing up the issue of reporting.
>
> Also, Subhashish, now that you have appropriate bandwidth, I believe
> refelctions on the Bengaluru meetup can be done.
>
> I never said I have the appropriate bandwidth now. :) In fact, I’m trying
> to reflect on something that is recent - Wikimania - with the community.
> The Bangalore meeting is no longer a priority for me at the moment. I
> shared the notes with the community right after the meeting.
>
> I thought I shared the fact that I had shared the discussions with my own
> community.
>
> It would be a great learning experience for delegrates attending next year
> Wikimedia Conference. :) .   Please Note : No Attempts to deviate from
> the topic.
>
> It’s clearly deviating from the main topic. Better to start a new thread
> instead.
>
>
>> Also, I personally think that if a question is directed towards an
>> organization, it’s better to wait for sometime until they get back. We, as
>> a community, have quite some time now until next Wikimania to set a better
>> standard and fix if something is broken. :)
>>
> Of Course  ! Both Wikimedia India and CIS-A2K are responsive and this is a
> welcome step. I would like to bring to attention, once the Wikimedia India
> Program Director had initiated an idea that particular volunteer to attend
> only two Wikimania and in turn leave space for other volunteers.
>
> It was a suggestion from Ravi and not something set in stone.
>
>
> Some of our community members have been visiting Wikimania like from Hong
> Kong Wikimania in 2013, United Kingdom Wikimania in 2014, Mexico Wikimania
> in 2015, Italy Wikimania in 2016, Canadan Wikimania in 2017 and now South
> Afrcia.
>
> What’s the point here? Wikimedians from India are a subset of a much
> larger community and there are Wikimedians who have attended all the
> Wikimanias. Where you’re going with this statement?
>
>
> This is just a suggestion floated since the idea of next year Wikimania is
> discussed.  Wikimedia Projects are about the art of giving and making space
> for other volunteers could just be one step.
>
> Still not sure. I don’t remember very well but I probably will check again
> from the archives - Phoebe shared a long note earlier. If one Wikimedian
> from India does not apply for a scholarship it doesn’t mean that another
> Wikimedian from India would receive it. Not sure if it works that way.
>
>
>> A2K providing support to the community (Wikimedia India included) in
>> general is a good practice. Maybe this is the right time for the community
>> to come forward to share what they feel should be the right way (or ways)
>> A2K could follow while supporting someone from Wikimedia India. The way
>> they support the individual Wikimedians (from the scholarship waitlist)
>> seems fairly simple and straightforward. Supporting WMIN lies in a grey
>> area because one individual from 7 people gets selected. The consensus
>> process 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Subhashish Panigrahi]

Subhashish

> On Aug 5, 2018, at 7:06 PM, Abhinav srivastava  wrote:
> 
> Hello Subhashish, 
> 
> I would put a few of my reflections. Responses in line. 
> 
>> On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 6:15 PM Subhashish Panigrahi  
>> wrote:
>> Just to clarify, my responses below are not about Rahul at all but in 
>> general -
> Yes ! The issue is much larger.  
>> 
>> What Bodhi wrote earlier makes sense, “participation for chairpersons meetup 
>> is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal 
>> meetup”. A Wikimania participant gets to attend many such informal meetups, 
>> and I’d like to believe that they certainly add value to the movement. But 
>> participation in such small little occasion (not small as less worthy but 
>> small as compared to a large formal event) does not really justify a 3-4 
>> day-long travel which affects one’s personal/work life (as you rightly put 
>> it).
> I believe judgements should only be made based on objectivity.  I am not too 
> sure if being a speaker on a global platform can be called upon as a 'such 
> small little occassion'. Then, how do we make judgements ?
No judgements. Still stand by my words. Speaking slot in an ‘informal meetup’ 
that is attended by a small set of people is smaller than a formal talk in a 
formal event. But then, many Wikimedians whose talks and workshops get selected 
at Wikimania don’t get a chance to attend Wikimania in the first place for 
various reasons.
> Through reports, learning patterns, minutes of the meeting etc. In fact, we 
> all such contemplate on the reports and learning patterns as found on the 
> Meta Page. It clearly states how this agenda would be further worked upon and 
> then taken up in the next meeting. We all should give suggestions. Thank You, 
> Subhashish for bringing up the issue of reporting. 
> 
> Also, Subhashish, now that you have appropriate bandwidth, I believe 
> refelctions on the Bengaluru meetup can be done.
I never said I have the appropriate bandwidth now. :) In fact, I’m trying to 
reflect on something that is recent - Wikimania - with the community. The 
Bangalore meeting is no longer a priority for me at the moment. I shared the 
notes with the community right after the meeting.

I thought I shared the fact that I had shared the discussions with my own 
community.
> It would be a great learning experience for delegrates attending next year 
> Wikimedia Conference. :) .   Please Note : No Attempts to deviate from the 
> topic. 
It’s clearly deviating from the main topic. Better to start a new thread 
instead.
>> 
>> Also, I personally think that if a question is directed towards an 
>> organization, it’s better to wait for sometime until they get back. We, as a 
>> community, have quite some time now until next Wikimania to set a better 
>> standard and fix if something is broken. :)
> Of Course  ! Both Wikimedia India and CIS-A2K are responsive and this is a 
> welcome step. I would like to bring to attention, once the Wikimedia India 
> Program Director had initiated an idea that particular volunteer to attend 
> only two Wikimania and in turn leave space for other volunteers. 
It was a suggestion from Ravi and not something set in stone.
> 
> Some of our community members have been visiting Wikimania like from Hong 
> Kong Wikimania in 2013, United Kingdom Wikimania in 2014, Mexico Wikimania in 
> 2015, Italy Wikimania in 2016, Canadan Wikimania in 2017 and now South 
> Afrcia. 
What’s the point here? Wikimedians from India are a subset of a much larger 
community and there are Wikimedians who have attended all the Wikimanias. Where 
you’re going with this statement?
> 
> This is just a suggestion floated since the idea of next year Wikimania is 
> discussed.  Wikimedia Projects are about the art of giving and making space 
> for other volunteers could just be one step. 
Still not sure. I don’t remember very well but I probably will check again from 
the archives - Phoebe shared a long note earlier. If one Wikimedian from India 
does not apply for a scholarship it doesn’t mean that another Wikimedian from 
India would receive it. Not sure if it works that way.
>> 
>> A2K providing support to the community (Wikimedia India included) in general 
>> is a good practice. Maybe this is the right time for the community to come 
>> forward to share what they feel should be the right way (or ways) A2K could 
>> follow while supporting someone from Wikimedia India. The way they support 
>> the individual Wikimedians (from the scholarship waitlist) seems fairly 
>> simple and straightforward. Supporting WMIN lies in a grey area because one 
>> individual from 7 people gets selected. The consensus process involved in 
>> that process need to be more transparent.
> 
> Yes ! Definitely. Transparency is the key.  I am glad that CIS-A2K stood firm 
> in apologising. This is a very welcome step. However as pointed out in my 
> previous mail, supporting a scholarship reciepient in waiting and a 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Abhinav srivastava]

Hello Subhashish,

I would put a few of my reflections. Responses in line.

On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 6:15 PM Subhashish Panigrahi 
wrote:

> Just to clarify, my responses below are not about Rahul at all but in
> general -
>
Yes ! The issue is much larger.

>
> What Bodhi wrote earlier makes sense, “participation for chairpersons
> meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an
> informal meetup”. A Wikimania participant gets to attend many such informal
> meetups, and I’d like to believe that they certainly add value to the
> movement. But participation in such small little occasion (not small as
> less worthy but small as compared to a large formal event) does not really
> justify a 3-4 day-long travel which affects one’s personal/work life (as
> you rightly put it).
>
I believe judgements should only be made based on objectivity.  I am not
too sure if being a speaker on a global platform can be called upon as a
'such small little occassion'. Then, how do we make judgements ? Through
reports, learning patterns, minutes of the meeting etc. In fact, we all
such contemplate on the reports and learning patterns as found on the Meta
Page. It clearly states how this agenda would be further worked upon and
then taken up in the next meeting. We all should give suggestions. Thank
You, Subhashish for bringing up the issue of reporting.

Also, Subhashish, now that you have appropriate bandwidth, I believe
refelctions on the Bengaluru meetup can be done. It would be a great
learning experience for delegrates attending next year Wikimedia
Conference. :) .   Please Note : No Attempts to deviate from the topic.

>
> Also, I personally think that if a question is directed towards an
> organization, it’s better to wait for sometime until they get back. We, as
> a community, have quite some time now until next Wikimania to set a better
> standard and fix if something is broken. :)
>
Of Course  ! Both Wikimedia India and CIS-A2K are responsive and this is a
welcome step. I would like to bring to attention, once the Wikimedia India
Program Director had initiated an idea that particular volunteer to attend
only two Wikimania and in turn leave space for other volunteers.

Some of our community members have been visiting Wikimania like from Hong
Kong Wikimania in 2013, United Kingdom Wikimania in 2014, Mexico Wikimania
in 2015, Italy Wikimania in 2016, Canadan Wikimania in 2017 and now South
Afrcia.

This is just a suggestion floated since the idea of next year Wikimania is
discussed.  Wikimedia Projects are about the art of giving and making space
for other volunteers could just be one step.

>
> A2K providing support to the community (Wikimedia India included) in
> general is a good practice. Maybe this is the right time for the community
> to come forward to share what they feel should be the right way (or ways)
> A2K could follow while supporting someone from Wikimedia India. The way
> they support the individual Wikimedians (from the scholarship waitlist)
> seems fairly simple and straightforward. Supporting WMIN lies in a grey
> area because one individual from 7 people gets selected. The consensus
> process involved in that process need to be more transparent.
>

Yes ! Definitely. Transparency is the key.  I am glad that CIS-A2K stood
firm in apologising. This is a very welcome step. However as pointed out in
my previous mail, supporting a scholarship reciepient in waiting and a
speaker are two different subjects. I am not sure if judgements such as
'grey areas' should be made but Yes it calls for a discussion on how things
should work upon.

The consensus process is also something that calls for a discussion. From
informing the team members to taking consensus, the community's will on
this should be recorded with the Chapter. It is nice to hear that EC was
copied in the request mail and aderance to transparecy is being made.

>
> Subhashish
>

P.S : I may be slow in responses to future mails for the next 6 days. I am
no travel.

Abhinav

>
> On Aug 5, 2018, at 2:27 PM, Bodhisattwa Mandal <
> bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I was expecting a reply from WMIN.
>
> Thanks,
> Bodhisattwa
>
> On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 14:25 Abhinav srivastava, 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Bodhisattva,
>>
>> Please allow me to respond to your confusions. Responses in line.
>>
>> Again, as stated in my first mail on the thread, you are making too many
>> value-judgments with un-friendly tone.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 12:27 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <
>> bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Yohann,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
>>>
>>>
>>> I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a
>>> single word.
>>>
>>> My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to
>>> make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
>>>
>>> 1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to
>>> the main program of Wikimania. For 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Subhashish Panigrahi]

Just to clarify, my responses below are not about Rahul at all but in general -

What Bodhi wrote earlier makes sense, “participation for chairpersons meetup is 
not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup”. A 
Wikimania participant gets to attend many such informal meetups, and I’d like 
to believe that they certainly add value to the movement. But participation in 
such small little occasion (not small as less worthy but small as compared to a 
large formal event) does not really justify a 3-4 day-long travel which affects 
one’s personal/work life (as you rightly put it).

Also, I personally think that if a question is directed towards an 
organization, it’s better to wait for sometime until they get back. We, as a 
community, have quite some time now until next Wikimania to set a better 
standard and fix if something is broken. :)

A2K providing support to the community (Wikimedia India included) in general is 
a good practice. Maybe this is the right time for the community to come forward 
to share what they feel should be the right way (or ways) A2K could follow 
while supporting someone from Wikimedia India. The way they support the 
individual Wikimedians (from the scholarship waitlist) seems fairly simple and 
straightforward. Supporting WMIN lies in a grey area because one individual 
from 7 people gets selected. The consensus process involved in that process 
need to be more transparent.

Subhashish

> On Aug 5, 2018, at 2:27 PM, Bodhisattwa Mandal  
> wrote:
> 
> I was expecting a reply from WMIN.
> 
> Thanks,
> Bodhisattwa
> 
>> On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 14:25 Abhinav srivastava,  wrote:
>> Hello Bodhisattva, 
>> 
>> Please allow me to respond to your confusions. Responses in line. 
>> 
>> Again, as stated in my first mail on the thread, you are making too many 
>> value-judgments with un-friendly tone. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 12:27 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal 
>>>  wrote:
>>> Hi Yohann,
>>> 
>>> Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single 
>>> word.
>>> 
>>> My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make 
>>> it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
>>> 
>>> 1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the 
>>> main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups, 
>>> there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one 
>>> steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then 
>>> he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same 
>>> principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not 
>>> eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can 
>>> you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship 
>>> would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true, 
>>> everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups 
>>> in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
>>  
>> If you check the agenda section, WMIN President gave a talk on Conflict 
>> Resolution, this is followed my summary in the notes.  When there are so 
>> many conflicts in Wikimedia communities across the globle, someone from 
>> India is invited to put this theories towards resolution. This is a welcome 
>> step. From Notes to his Summary Talk to how this will be carried forward for 
>> future course, every thing is documented. 
>> 
>> He did not simply attend the meeting as a participant or representing 
>> Wikimedia India, he was a lead on the 3rd point of the Agenda which is 
>> Conflcit Resolution. Everything on it is documented. 
>> 
>>> 
>>> 2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of 
>>> chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a 
>>> proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was 
>>> invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't 
>>> attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide 
>>> the documentation of his invitation?
>>> 
>>> [1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
>>> [2] 
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
>>> 
>> I am sure when Wikimedia India President is invited to give a talk on a 
>> defined Agenda, 'Conflict Resolution' and CIS-A2K is approving his request, 
>> he must on record have recieved an invitation. 
>> 
>> It cannot be that without an invitation someone would travel so far.  Also, 
>> please remember, unlike WMF staff or CIS-A2K, when someone from Wikimedia 
>> India has to travel, he has to forgoe his personal paid holidays. WMF staff 
>> or CIS-A2K travel abroad calling it 'On Work'. 
>>> 3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already there 
>>> were 2 EC members 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

I was expecting a reply from WMIN.

Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 14:25 Abhinav srivastava,  wrote:

> Hello Bodhisattva,
>
> Please allow me to respond to your confusions. Responses in line.
>
> Again, as stated in my first mail on the thread, you are making too many
> value-judgments with un-friendly tone.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 12:27 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <
> bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Yohann,
>>
>> Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
>>
>>
>> I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single
>> word.
>>
>> My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make
>> it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
>>
>> 1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the
>> main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups,
>> there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one
>> steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then
>> he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same
>> principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not
>> eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can
>> you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship
>> would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true,
>> everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups
>> in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
>>
>
> If you check the agenda section, WMIN President gave a talk on Conflict
> Resolution, this is followed my summary in the notes.  When there are so
> many conflicts in Wikimedia communities across the globle, someone from
> India is invited to put this theories towards resolution. This is a welcome
> step. From Notes to his Summary Talk to how this will be carried forward
> for future course, every thing is documented.
>
> He did not simply attend the meeting as a participant or representing
> Wikimedia India, he was a lead on the 3rd point of the Agenda which is
> Conflcit Resolution. Everything on it is documented.
>
>
>> 2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
>> chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a
>> proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was
>> invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't
>> attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide
>> the documentation of his invitation?
>>
>> [1]
>> https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
>>
>> [2]
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
>>
> I am sure when Wikimedia India President is invited to give a talk on a
> defined Agenda, 'Conflict Resolution' and CIS-A2K is approving his request,
> he must on record have recieved an invitation.
>
> It cannot be that without an invitation someone would travel so far.
> Also, please remember, unlike WMF staff or CIS-A2K, when someone from
> Wikimedia India has to travel, he has to forgoe his personal paid holidays.
> WMF staff or CIS-A2K travel abroad calling it 'On Work'.
>
>> 3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already
>> there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went
>> there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation
>> is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the
>> informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they
>> considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
>>
> This is about merit of the particular individual. This has nothing to do
> with the other Two EC.
>
> Secondly, stating this again, he didn't travel simply to attend the
> meeting, he was given a set agenda to speak that is 'Conflict Resolution'.
> It was a subject of one's personal merit on which the organising committee
> invited him, this cannot be passed to other members of the same affiliate.
>
>> 4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
>> Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So,
>> sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a
>> Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the
>> conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain
>> that?
>>
> I do not think that if Wikimedia India President didn't go someone else
> would have been promoted. CIS-A2K should give a clarification on this.
>
> Simply stating it once again, he didn't just travel to attend the
> conference, he was a speaker. This is entirely a different subject.
>
>> 5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the
>> conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul
>> is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Abhinav srivastava]

Hello Bodhisattva,

Please allow me to respond to your confusions. Responses in line.

Again, as stated in my first mail on the thread, you are making too many
value-judgments with un-friendly tone.





On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 12:27 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <
bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Yohann,
>
> Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
>
>
> I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single
> word.
>
> My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make
> it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
>
> 1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the
> main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups,
> there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one
> steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then
> he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same
> principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not
> eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can
> you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship
> would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true,
> everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups
> in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
>

If you check the agenda section, WMIN President gave a talk on Conflict
Resolution, this is followed my summary in the notes.  When there are so
many conflicts in Wikimedia communities across the globle, someone from
India is invited to put this theories towards resolution. This is a welcome
step. From Notes to his Summary Talk to how this will be carried forward
for future course, every thing is documented.

He did not simply attend the meeting as a participant or representing
Wikimedia India, he was a lead on the 3rd point of the Agenda which is
Conflcit Resolution. Everything on it is documented.


> 2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
> chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a
> proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was
> invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't
> attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide
> the documentation of his invitation?
>
> [1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
>
> [2]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
>
I am sure when Wikimedia India President is invited to give a talk on a
defined Agenda, 'Conflict Resolution' and CIS-A2K is approving his request,
he must on record have recieved an invitation.

It cannot be that without an invitation someone would travel so far.  Also,
please remember, unlike WMF staff or CIS-A2K, when someone from Wikimedia
India has to travel, he has to forgoe his personal paid holidays. WMF staff
or CIS-A2K travel abroad calling it 'On Work'.

> 3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already there
> were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there
> with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not
> at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal
> meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit
> or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
>
This is about merit of the particular individual. This has nothing to do
with the other Two EC.

Secondly, stating this again, he didn't travel simply to attend the
meeting, he was given a set agenda to speak that is 'Conflict Resolution'.
It was a subject of one's personal merit on which the organising committee
invited him, this cannot be passed to other members of the same affiliate.

> 4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
> Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So,
> sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a
> Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the
> conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain
> that?
>
I do not think that if Wikimedia India President didn't go someone else
would have been promoted. CIS-A2K should give a clarification on this.

Simply stating it once again, he didn't just travel to attend the
conference, he was a speaker. This is entirely a different subject.

> 5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the
> conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul
> is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
>
In response to statement 4.

>
> I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I
> hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it
> personally.
>
> Waiting for your detailed reply,
>
> 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

Hi Yohann,

Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.


I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single
word.

My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make
it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.

1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the
main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups,
there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one
steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then
he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same
principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not
eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can
you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship
would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true,
everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups
in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.

2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a
proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was
invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't
attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide
the documentation of his invitation?

[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018

[2]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018

3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already there
were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there
with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not
at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal meeting
of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit or
incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?

4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So,
sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a
Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the
conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain
that?

5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the
conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul
is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?

I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I
hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it
personally.

Waiting for your detailed reply,

Bodhisattwa

On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, 11:08 Yohann Thomas,  wrote:

> (sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
>
> Hi Bodhi
>
> I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I can
> give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
>
> //In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended
> the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then
> subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's
> meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
>
>
> https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
>
> With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
> trip & they accepted his proposal. //
>
>
> Regards,
> Yohann Thomas
> Secretary
> Wikimedia India
>
>
> On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Yohann,
>>
>> Thanks for your mail.
>>
>> If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many
>> participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the
>> meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the
>> meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary
>> of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any
>> affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in
>> that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
>>
>> In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya
>> Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on
>> behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge
>> amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where
>> his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members
>> unfit to attend such meeting?
>>
>> Waiting for your reply,
>> Bodhisattwa
>>
>>
>> On 3 Aug 2018 6:05 pm, "Yohann Thomas"  wrote:
>>
>> Dear Bodhi & other community members
>>
>> First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India
>> is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any
>> topic, requires