Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Membership recruitment
On 27 June 2013 22:07, Gordon Joly gordon.j...@pobox.com wrote: I would like to reply here. At an AGM, this email list is informed of the outcome of elections and motions, before the membership is informed. I believe the reason is that CiviCRM is not always available. Can I ask that members are informed first, and then an announcement is sent out to this list etc? In other words, membership should bring benefits not afforded to non-members. It is the lack of distinction that may put off potential members. And retain the current members This sort of courtesy is necessary, but not sufficient. You just come to visit me 'round election time is a Stevie Wonder lyric, but expresses the point that communication to the membership in the past has been seen as essential to having an AGM that is quorate, and otherwise a luxury for the Board, who are typically busy with other pet projects. Taking messages to this list to be a surrogate for communicating properly with members is an old and bad habit. It is not improved by trustees who either don't read this mail (which is indeed not just about the chapter), or who don't engage in serious discussion here, when some measure of accountability would be welcome. What I have told Kat is that I think matters will not improve much until there is an identifiable trustee who has the responsibility to advocate for the members' interests on the Board. This has singularly failed to happen in the past. The wiki pages dealing with membership matters were apparently everyone's responsibiliy, and so no one's in particular. The content was allowed to go stale: the promises made to members there were not kept, and trustees were lackadaisical about the whole business. I'm delighted that the matter of membership has climbed back on the agenda. It is an example (if one were needed) of why there should be trustees performing the non-executive function of saying hoy!. Charles ___ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediau...@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
[Wikimediauk-l] Putting this out there - any volunteer time to help with data processing
Dear all, You may have picked up the odd mention in staff reports to the board or passing conversation, but one of the pieces of work I'm responsible for is the Charity's gift aid records and claims. After delay getting our first claim through, then needing to update our records with HMRC so the right people and bank details were on our record, I'm ready to work on the outstanding data files for the claims for last financial year. However, it's a big job that can't really be automated - it involves reformatting and then checking through spreadsheets with mixture of search and replace and common sense to make sure the claim records we're submitting are those of individuals (not companies) and include real name data. Is there someone who would be interested and able to help? It would require at least a couple of days in the office next month - its not really appropriate to do remotely and you would have to sigh an undertaking to treat the data confidentially. We can support some expenses here (travel, lunch/per diem) but I'm not sure we could pay for accommodation - its therefore most probably an appeal to those who are in/near london based to help. Do let me know if you think this could be something you could do. Thanks, *Katherine Bavage * *Fundraising Manager * *Wikimedia UK* +44 20 7065 0752 Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects). *Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.* ___ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediau...@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Membership recruitment
On 27/06/13 22:41, Dan Brickley wrote: Thanks, hadn't noticed that. Hence, needs to flagged more widely Gordo ___ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediau...@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Membership recruitment
In terms of making sure the charity communicates with its membership outside of AGMs and related matters, since January we have been sending out monthly newsletters to our members: uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Membership/Newsletter/Archive On Friday, 28 June 2013, Charles Matthews charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 27 June 2013 22:07, Gordon Joly gordon.j...@pobox.com wrote: I would like to reply here. At an AGM, this email list is informed of the outcome of elections and motions, before the membership is informed. I believe the reason is that CiviCRM is not always available. Can I ask that members are informed first, and then an announcement is sent out to this list etc? In other words, membership should bring benefits not afforded to non-members. It is the lack of distinction that may put off potential members. And retain the current members This sort of courtesy is necessary, but not sufficient. You just come to visit me 'round election time is a Stevie Wonder lyric, but expresses the point that communication to the membership in the past has been seen as essential to having an AGM that is quorate, and otherwise a luxury for the Board, who are typically busy with other pet projects. Taking messages to this list to be a surrogate for communicating properly with members is an old and bad habit. It is not improved by trustees who either don't read this mail (which is indeed not just about the chapter), or who don't engage in serious discussion here, when some measure of accountability would be welcome. What I have told Kat is that I think matters will not improve much until there is an identifiable trustee who has the responsibility to advocate for the members' interests on the Board. This has singularly failed to happen in the past. The wiki pages dealing with membership matters were apparently everyone's responsibiliy, and so no one's in particular. The content was allowed to go stale: the promises made to members there were not kept, and trustees were lackadaisical about the whole business. I'm delighted that the matter of membership has climbed back on the agenda. It is an example (if one were needed) of why there should be trustees performing the non-executive function of saying hoy!. Charles -- Richard Nevell Wikimedia UK +44 (0) 20 7065 0753 Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects). *Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.* ___ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediau...@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Membership recruitment
On 28/06/13 15:31, Stevie Benton wrote: Thanks for your email. The membership email is made openly available in accordance with our values. To ask a genuine question, do you think members in general would prefer it to be private and would you prefer it to be private? This issue is not about privacy or openness. It is about what a member gets that others do not. At the moment, voting at the AGM comes to mind, paying dues and not much else. Oh, and that warm fuzzy feeling and something to tell the grandchildren about Gordo ___ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediau...@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Membership recruitment
The page I linked to in my opening email - http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Membership/Promoting - discusses this exactly and suggests how we could describe the benefit of membership to potential members. So, to return to Stevie's point, when Gordo, says: This issue is not about privacy or openness. It is about what a member gets that others do not. At the moment, voting at the AGM comes to mind, paying dues and *not much else. *(my emphasis) the question that historically we haven't answered is: *should* members get privileges? How does that square with the fact other wikimedia chapter memberships don't really seem to get specific benefits and privileges? Would it be consistent with what the movement and our chapter in it are trying to achieve? I think the answer is 'probably not'. It's not up to me to decide, but I don't think we can afford to keep getting stuck/vague on this point. It will harm recruitment. I think the descriptions of what people can gain through joining that I laid out on the page sum up why new and established editors would benefit from becoming members without offering them discounts, private emails, special extras etc. I am up for the idea of a lapel pin though - it might be nice for people to have this to demonstrate their support. *Katherine Bavage * *Fundraising Manager * *Wikimedia UK* +44 20 7065 0752 Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects). *Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.* On 28 June 2013 15:37, Gordon Joly gordon.j...@pobox.com wrote: On 28/06/13 15:31, Stevie Benton wrote: Thanks for your email. The membership email is made openly available in accordance with our values. To ask a genuine question, do you think members in general would prefer it to be private and would you prefer it to be private? This issue is not about privacy or openness. It is about what a member gets that others do not. At the moment, voting at the AGM comes to mind, paying dues and not much else. Oh, and that warm fuzzy feeling and something to tell the grandchildren about Gordo __**_ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediau...@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-lhttp://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org ___ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediau...@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Membership recruitment
I basically agree with Katherine, Gordo I'm not sure what benefits you think members should get? Why are you a member? I like the way the page is a sort of a positioning statement regarding what it means for you to - a little description of why people might choose to be a member v. a volunteer v. some other sort of supporter. That doesn't have to be about benefits so much as the level and type of support people want to show, and the kinds of activity they might engage in. Having said that, I think the micro-grants thing is a good benefit which as I understand is only open to members (is that also true of claiming costs?). Cheers Simon From: wikimediauk-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimediauk-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Katherine Bavage Sent: 28 June 2013 08:12 To: UK Wikimedia mailing list Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Membership recruitment The page I linked to in my opening email - http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Membership/Promoting http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Membership/Promoting - discusses this exactly and suggests how we could describe the benefit of membership to potential members. So, to return to Stevie's point, when Gordo, says: This issue is not about privacy or openness. It is about what a member gets that others do not. At the moment, voting at the AGM comes to mind, paying dues and not much else. (my emphasis) the question that historically we haven't answered is: should members get privileges? How does that square with the fact other wikimedia chapter memberships don't really seem to get specific benefits and privileges? Would it be consistent with what the movement and our chapter in it are trying to achieve? I think the answer is 'probably not'. It's not up to me to decide, but I don't think we can afford to keep getting stuck/vague on this point. It will harm recruitment. I think the descriptions of what people can gain through joining that I laid out on the page sum up why new and established editors would benefit from becoming members without offering them discounts, private emails, special extras etc. I am up for the idea of a lapel pin though - it might be nice for people to have this to demonstrate their support. Katherine Bavage Fundraising Manager Wikimedia UK +44 20 7065 0752 Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects). Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents. On 28 June 2013 15:37, Gordon Joly gordon.j...@pobox.com wrote: On 28/06/13 15:31, Stevie Benton wrote: Thanks for your email. The membership email is made openly available in accordance with our values. To ask a genuine question, do you think members in general would prefer it to be private and would you prefer it to be private? This issue is not about privacy or openness. It is about what a member gets that others do not. At the moment, voting at the AGM comes to mind, paying dues and not much else. Oh, and that warm fuzzy feeling and something to tell the grandchildren about Gordo ___ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediau...@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org ___ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediau...@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Membership recruitment
On 28/06/13 16:23, Simon Knight wrote: I basically agree with Katherine, Gordo I’m not sure what benefits you think members /should /get? Why are you a member? Why indeed. Gordo ___ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediau...@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Membership recruitment
On 28 June 2013 16:23, Simon Knight sjgkni...@gmail.com wrote: I basically agree with Katherine, Gordo I’m not sure what benefits you think members *should *get? Why are you a member? I like the way the page is a sort of a positioning statement regarding what it means for you to – a little description of why people might choose to be a member v. a volunteer v. some other sort of supporter. That doesn’t have to be about benefits so much as the level and type of support people want to show, and the kinds of activity they might engage in. Having said that, I think the micro-grants thing is a good benefit which as I understand is only open to members (is that also true of claiming costs?). The argument that someone who could usefully apply for a microgrant (an engaged activist) is a typical member is a time-honoured fallacy in this discussion. Charles ___ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediau...@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Membership recruitment
Gordo - It’s a reasonable question, if you want to take it as rhetorical that’s fine but in that case just don’t reply at all. On a related note, as we’re talking about recruitment some of the messages on this list are pretty off putting (and sorry Gordo, but yours falls in to this category although it’s certainly not the only example, or indeed the worst). I sat on this list for quite a long time before becoming a member, and this is the first time I’ve ever replied having been on the list for probably over a year now. I’m all for free and open conversation, it’s one of the movement’s virtues, but as a relative ‘outsider’ there are times where I haven’t wanted to contribute because I’ve felt the ‘conversation’ has been stifled. Apologies for using this as an example, but it seems like a pretty salient case both in the context of this being my 1st/2nd posting the topic. Charles – yes, trying to imagine a sort of Venn diagram of volunteers (of various sorts), members and other supporters is an interesting exercise I think. The microgrant attraction doesn’t have to be a benefit we’d anticipate all members using though, but it might be a draw for a particular sort of volunteer (whether that’s the sort of volunteer the movement is interested in, and that sort of motivation is ok I guess are separate issues). That’s why I don’t think trying to classify the sorts of activities people might be engaged in depending on their differing statuses within the organisation is going to help here. I’m struggling to think about how to make this distinction but at the moment the page is closer to describing how people see their relationship to the organisation (members – want to show support for…, might be interested in internals of Wikimedia. Volunteers – might be interested in particular projects, or whatever), what people actually do is less focus than the area or support they want to express…if that makes sense. Best Simon From: wikimediauk-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimediauk-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Gordon Joly Sent: 28 June 2013 09:28 To: wikimediauk-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Membership recruitment On 28/06/13 16:23, Simon Knight wrote: I basically agree with Katherine, Gordo I’m not sure what benefits you think members should get? Why are you a member? Why indeed. Gordo ___ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediau...@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Membership recruitment
On 28 June 2013 17:58, Simon Knight sjgkni...@gmail.com wrote: Charles – yes, trying to imagine a sort of Venn diagram of volunteers (of various sorts), members and other supporters is an interesting exercise I think. The microgrant attraction doesn’t have to be a benefit we’d anticipate all members using though, but it might be a draw for a particular sort of volunteer (whether that’s the sort of volunteer the movement is interested in, and that sort of motivation is ok I guess are separate issues). That’s why I don’t think trying to classify the sorts of activities people might be engaged in depending on their differing statuses within the organisation is going to help here. I’m struggling to think about how to make this distinction but at the moment the page is closer to describing how people see their relationship to the organisation (members – want to show support for…, might be interested in internals of Wikimedia. Volunteers – might be interested in particular projects, or whatever), what people actually do is less focus than the area or support they want to express…if that makes sense. Technically it's called a stakeholder analysis, as I learned from Fae a while back. And the office has done one in the past. I think the issue here is the non-activist potential joiners. NB that calling them all volunteers is a bit like missing the point. I think we need to come back to the fact that WMUK is a membership organisation. And get beyond the fact that this is constitutional, plumbed into the charity. Nearly five years in on WMUK Mk II and the shoe is starting to pinch on what that means. This whole discussion is clearly overdue, but now we have a definite structure (Board and staff and volunteers). I think it is a bit much to ask the _members_ to define what they feel about it all, as things stand. Whatever the membership page on the UK Wiki may imply, this list is not for members (a point you made) or even for WMUK. Meetups are not members-only. Basically the niche for members' discussion is still the AGM. Charles ___ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediau...@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Membership recruitment
On 28/06/13 17:58, Simon Knight wrote: Gordo - It’s a reasonable question, if you want to take it as rhetorical that’s fine but in that case just don’t reply at all. I will remember. Thanks for the input. Gordo ___ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediau...@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Membership recruitment
On 28 June 2013 18:20, Charles Matthews charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote: the niche for members' discussion is still the AGM Non-members may attend the AGM (part of a a conference which last all day). They may not, however, vote. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediau...@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Membership recruitment
I basically agree with Katherine, Gordo I'm not sure what benefits you think members should get? Why are you a member? (...) How does that square with the fact other wikimedia chapter memberships don't really seem to get specific benefits and privileges? Would it be consistent with what the movement and our chapter in it are trying to achieve? I think the answer is 'probably not'. It's not up to me to decide, but I don't think we can afford to keep getting stuck/vague on this point. It will harm recruitment. There are several points I would like to make: * As a movement, there is no unified will with single set of goals but a diverse range of people with differing priorities. Wikipedia (and the sister projects) constitutes the manifestation of the aggregation of the diversity of what we are trying to achieve. * As long as there are enough people to maintain WMUK, why do we need to worry about recruitment? And if there are not enough people, then perhaps there is no need for WMUK? I find it somewhat disappointing that discussions on this list have headed in this direction, instead of focussing on what we think we be good to help develop the family of Wikimedia sites. I was rather hoping the role of the fundraiser would be to look at developing projects to achieve such goals, rather than focusing on WMUK as a self-perpetuating entity. I am really keen that we have a small membership cost (£5 is good) and that this simply empowers the member to vote at AGMs etc. Adding other features is likely to have a financial impact leading some to call for a rise in the membership fee to cover services which not everyone may feel are useful or even suitable. all the best Fabian User:Leutha ___ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediau...@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Membership recruitment
It's worth noting that a privilege granted to the membership is something with which we have to be happy saying sorry, you can't do X, you're not a member. On 28 June 2013 18:12, Katherine Bavage katherine.bav...@wikimedia.org.ukwrote: The page I linked to in my opening email - http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Membership/Promoting - discusses this exactly and suggests how we could describe the benefit of membership to potential members. So, to return to Stevie's point, when Gordo, says: This issue is not about privacy or openness. It is about what a member gets that others do not. At the moment, voting at the AGM comes to mind, paying dues and *not much else. *(my emphasis) the question that historically we haven't answered is: *should* members get privileges? How does that square with the fact other wikimedia chapter memberships don't really seem to get specific benefits and privileges? Would it be consistent with what the movement and our chapter in it are trying to achieve? I think the answer is 'probably not'. It's not up to me to decide, but I don't think we can afford to keep getting stuck/vague on this point. It will harm recruitment. I think the descriptions of what people can gain through joining that I laid out on the page sum up why new and established editors would benefit from becoming members without offering them discounts, private emails, special extras etc. I am up for the idea of a lapel pin though - it might be nice for people to have this to demonstrate their support. *Katherine Bavage * *Fundraising Manager * *Wikimedia UK* +44 20 7065 0752 Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects). *Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.* On 28 June 2013 15:37, Gordon Joly gordon.j...@pobox.com wrote: On 28/06/13 15:31, Stevie Benton wrote: Thanks for your email. The membership email is made openly available in accordance with our values. To ask a genuine question, do you think members in general would prefer it to be private and would you prefer it to be private? This issue is not about privacy or openness. It is about what a member gets that others do not. At the moment, voting at the AGM comes to mind, paying dues and not much else. Oh, and that warm fuzzy feeling and something to tell the grandchildren about Gordo __**_ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediau...@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-lhttp://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org ___ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediau...@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org ___ Wikimedia UK mailing list wikimediau...@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
