Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Digitisaton of East India Company/ India Office records

[Where Devels Dare]

I am an inactive volunteer (at present and been so for a while now), chanced 
upon this thread. In the past one of the projects I worked upon and was hoping 
would see light of day, some day, was release of thousands of India related 
images by the British Library under a free license. These images are part of 
our Indian national heritage and are of educational and cultural importance. 
They are from the 17th to the 20th century and include oil paintings, murals, 
portraits, photographs etc.


In 2014 I was in London for Wikimania, with the help of Jon Davies (then ED), 
Jonathan Cardy and Andrew Gray we had a meeting at BL and there was a serious 
effort to make this a reality but it was just about the time other things took 
precedence in personally for me and Wikimedia went on the back-burner. I 
attempted to revive talks on my visit to London last summer, in vein.


If anyone is willing to take this up, I would be most happy to share all the 
correspondence and minutes of meetings from the past (offlist) as well as try 
to put them in touch with BL (though WMUK might be better at the latter) and 
try to help out where possible, though I have severe time constraints which 
would prevent me from playing an active part in such an attempt.


Regards,


From: Wikimediauk-l <wikimediauk-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org> on behalf of 
John Lubbock <john.lubb...@wikimedia.org.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2017 1:57:12 PM
To: Charles Matthews; UK Wikimedia mailing list
Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Digitisaton of East India Company/ India Office 
records

If you have ideas Charles, I'm very happy to hear them. I just don't know what 
our connections with the Indian diaspora in the UK are right now and whether 
they'd be interested in doing something on these records, rather than 
preferring something on their own culture. You're welcome to propose ideas and 
to suggest people we might work with. I'm all ears. :)

John

On 8 February 2017 at 13:52, Charles Matthews 
<charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com<mailto:charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com>> wrote:


On 08 February 2017 at 12:46 John Lubbock 
<john.lubb...@wikimedia.org.uk<mailto:john.lubb...@wikimedia.org.uk>> wrote:

There's quite a lot of interest in this subject also because of the BBC series 
Taboo, which paints the East India Company in a pretty bad light that is quite 
believable given what is known about them

I think Taboo is great, at a graphic novel sort of level. People should know, 
though, that the East India Company was run by a board of 25 directors, rather 
than Jonathan Pryce doing a lot of swearing.

Among interesting employees were John Stuart Mill, and Thomas Love Peacock.

If anybody wants a somewhat long but illuminating read on them, I'd very much 
suggest the historian William Dalrymple's piece in the 
Graun<https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/04/east-india-company-original-corporate-raiders>
 from a couple of years ago.

I don't know that Dalrymple is taken seriously as a historian. I recently 
enjoyed In the Footsteps of Stamford Raffles, by Nigel Barley, which 
complements Taboo in its own way.

Personally, I do think that if possible we should look at the possibility of 
bringing this collection onto Wikimedia projects, but I don't think it would be 
an appropriate project for trying to work with the Indian Wikimedia chapter or 
with the Indian diaspora here. I do think we should look at how we could do 
that in future with subject matter which is less contentious though.


For heavens sake, WP has the mechanisms for dealing with contentious subjects. 
Communications being what they were, until the invention of the telegraph, 
there was a big disjunction between what the Company could get done from 
London; and what actually went on in South and East Asia. And what UCL are 
working on for the West Indies, someone should attempt for the East Indies.

Charles

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Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Digitisaton of East India Company/ India Office records

[Dhaval S. Vyas]

Being a Born Indian (now British though) I agree with you, not at all a
good idea to work with India Chapter or diaspora. Though we Indian tend to
forget our past very quickly so you might get lucky in getting some Indians
involved in the project if WMUK took it.

Regards,
Dhaval

On 8 Feb 2017 12:46, "John Lubbock"  wrote:

> There's quite a lot of interest in this subject also because of the BBC
> series Taboo, which paints the East India Company in a pretty bad light
> that is quite believable given what is known about them. If anybody wants a
> somewhat long but illuminating read on them, I'd very much suggest the
> historian William Dalrymple's piece in the Graun
> 
> from a couple of years ago.
>
> Personally, I do think that if possible we should look at the possibility
> of bringing this collection onto Wikimedia projects, but I don't think it
> would be an appropriate project for trying to work with the Indian
> Wikimedia chapter or with the Indian diaspora here. I do think we should
> look at how we could do that in future with subject matter which is less
> contentious though.
>
> John Lubbock
>
> On 8 February 2017 at 10:22, Lucy Crompton-Reid <
> lucy.crompton-r...@wikimedia.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> Ah OK, so it may be politically tricky/insensitive. Thanks Gordo. It's
>> not an aspect of history I'm very familiar with but I suspect the answer to
>> your question was yes, it was! Certainly looks that way from the Wikipedia
>> page...
>>
>> On 8 February 2017 at 08:57, Gordon Joly  wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/02/17 13:36, Lucy Crompton-Reid wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Some of you may be aware that 2017 is the UK - India Year of Culture. I
>>> > guess this resource may relate to that, or it could be a coincidence.
>>> > Either way, it would be great to see what the potential is in terms of
>>> > the Wikimedia projects :)
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> I am not so sure. Wasn't the East India Company in reality a body that
>>> acted as if they were country of occupation in India?
>>>
>>> Gordon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Wikimedia UK mailing list
>>> wikimediau...@wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
>>> WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Lucy Crompton-Reid
>>
>> Chief Executive
>>
>> Wikimedia UK
>>
>> +44 (0) 207 065 0991
>>
>>
>>
>> Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and
>> Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered
>> Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT.
>>
>> Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The
>> Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate
>> Wikipedia, amongst other projects). *Wikimedia UK is an independent
>> non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility
>> for its contents.*
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
>> WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
>>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Digitisaton of East India Company/ India Office records

[Charles Matthews]

> On 08 February 2017 at 13:57 John Lubbock 
> wrote:
> 
> If you have ideas Charles, I'm very happy to hear them. I just don't know
> what our connections with the Indian diaspora in the UK are right now and
> whether they'd be interested in doing something on these records, rather than
> preferring something on their own culture. You're welcome to propose ideas and
> to suggest people we might work with. I'm all ears. :)
> 
> 

Other end of the telescope for me, really. We do have

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_East_India_Company_directors

and that says it was compiled from the EIC records. Looking down that list of
names, one leapt out at me: it was the subject of a thread

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Carbon_Caryatid#Richard_Smith

which led to something good. Namely, a correct identification of the model
(alleged) of the legal case in Bleak House. A good example of "follow the
money", which is not in the nabobs and planters mainstream.

Well, I like complicated narratives and tangled family history. Feels like
genuinely getting to grips with British history.

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Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Digitisaton of East India Company/ India Office records

[John Lubbock]

If you have ideas Charles, I'm very happy to hear them. I just don't know
what our connections with the Indian diaspora in the UK are right now and
whether they'd be interested in doing something on these records, rather
than preferring something on their own culture. You're welcome to propose
ideas and to suggest people we might work with. I'm all ears. :)

John

On 8 February 2017 at 13:52, Charles Matthews <
charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>
> On 08 February 2017 at 12:46 John Lubbock 
> wrote:
>
> There's quite a lot of interest in this subject also because of the BBC
> series Taboo, which paints the East India Company in a pretty bad light
> that is quite believable given what is known about them
>
> I think Taboo is great, at a graphic novel sort of level. People should
> know, though, that the East India Company was run by a board of 25
> directors, rather than Jonathan Pryce doing a lot of swearing.
>
> Among interesting employees were John Stuart Mill, and Thomas Love Peacock.
>
> If anybody wants a somewhat long but illuminating read on them, I'd very
> much suggest the historian William Dalrymple's piece in the Graun
> 
> from a couple of years ago.
>
> I don't know that Dalrymple is taken seriously as a historian. I recently
> enjoyed In the Footsteps of Stamford Raffles, by Nigel Barley, which
> complements Taboo in its own way.
>
>
> Personally, I do think that if possible we should look at the possibility
> of bringing this collection onto Wikimedia projects, but I don't think it
> would be an appropriate project for trying to work with the Indian
> Wikimedia chapter or with the Indian diaspora here. I do think we should
> look at how we could do that in future with subject matter which is less
> contentious though.
>
> For heavens sake, WP has the mechanisms for dealing with contentious
> subjects. Communications being what they were, until the invention of the
> telegraph, there was a big disjunction between what the Company could get
> done from London; and what actually went on in South and East Asia. And
> what UCL are working on for the West Indies, someone should attempt for the
> East Indies.
>
> Charles
>
> ___
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> wikimediau...@wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
>
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Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Digitisaton of East India Company/ India Office records

[Charles Matthews]

> On 08 February 2017 at 12:46 John Lubbock 
> wrote:
> 
> There's quite a lot of interest in this subject also because of the BBC
> series Taboo, which paints the East India Company in a pretty bad light that
> is quite believable given what is known about them
> 

I think Taboo is great, at a graphic novel sort of level. People should know,
though, that the East India Company was run by a board of 25 directors, rather
than Jonathan Pryce doing a lot of swearing. 

Among interesting employees were John Stuart Mill, and Thomas Love Peacock.

> If anybody wants a somewhat long but illuminating read on them, I'd very
> much suggest the historian William Dalrymple's piece in the Graun
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/04/east-india-company-original-corporate-raiders
> from a couple of years ago. 
> 

I don't know that Dalrymple is taken seriously as a historian. I recently
enjoyed In the Footsteps of Stamford Raffles, by Nigel Barley, which complements
Taboo in its own way. 

> 
> Personally, I do think that if possible we should look at the possibility
> of bringing this collection onto Wikimedia projects, but I don't think it
> would be an appropriate project for trying to work with the Indian Wikimedia
> chapter or with the Indian diaspora here. I do think we should look at how we
> could do that in future with subject matter which is less contentious though.
> 
> 

For heavens sake, WP has the mechanisms for dealing with contentious subjects.
Communications being what they were, until the invention of the telegraph, there
was a big disjunction between what the Company could get done from London; and
what actually went on in South and East Asia. And what UCL are working on for
the West Indies, someone should attempt for the East Indies.

Charles___
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Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Digitisaton of East India Company/ India Office records

[John Levin]

What access does Wikimedia UK have to this archive? I know it is British 
Library materials, and that it will be accessible in the BL building, 
but isn't it otherwise behind a paywall? Not sure how many universities 
have subscribed to it yet either.


John

On 08/02/2017 10:22, Lucy Crompton-Reid wrote:

Ah OK, so it may be politically tricky/insensitive. Thanks Gordo. It's
not an aspect of history I'm very familiar with but I suspect the answer
to your question was yes, it was! Certainly looks that way from the
Wikipedia page...

On 8 February 2017 at 08:57, Gordon Joly > wrote:

On 06/02/17 13:36, Lucy Crompton-Reid wrote:
>
> Some of you may be aware that 2017 is the UK - India Year of
Culture. I
> guess this resource may relate to that, or it could be a coincidence.
> Either way, it would be great to see what the potential is in terms of
> the Wikimedia projects :)
>


I am not so sure. Wasn't the East India Company in reality a body that
acted as if they were country of occupation in India?

Gordon




--
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Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Digitisaton of East India Company/ India Office records

[John Lubbock]

There's quite a lot of interest in this subject also because of the BBC
series Taboo, which paints the East India Company in a pretty bad light
that is quite believable given what is known about them. If anybody wants a
somewhat long but illuminating read on them, I'd very much suggest the
historian William Dalrymple's piece in the Graun

from a couple of years ago.

Personally, I do think that if possible we should look at the possibility
of bringing this collection onto Wikimedia projects, but I don't think it
would be an appropriate project for trying to work with the Indian
Wikimedia chapter or with the Indian diaspora here. I do think we should
look at how we could do that in future with subject matter which is less
contentious though.

John Lubbock

On 8 February 2017 at 10:22, Lucy Crompton-Reid <
lucy.crompton-r...@wikimedia.org.uk> wrote:

> Ah OK, so it may be politically tricky/insensitive. Thanks Gordo. It's not
> an aspect of history I'm very familiar with but I suspect the answer to
> your question was yes, it was! Certainly looks that way from the Wikipedia
> page...
>
> On 8 February 2017 at 08:57, Gordon Joly  wrote:
>
>> On 06/02/17 13:36, Lucy Crompton-Reid wrote:
>> >
>> > Some of you may be aware that 2017 is the UK - India Year of Culture. I
>> > guess this resource may relate to that, or it could be a coincidence.
>> > Either way, it would be great to see what the potential is in terms of
>> > the Wikimedia projects :)
>> >
>>
>>
>> I am not so sure. Wasn't the East India Company in reality a body that
>> acted as if they were country of occupation in India?
>>
>> Gordon
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Wikimedia UK mailing list
>> wikimediau...@wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
>> WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Lucy Crompton-Reid
>
> Chief Executive
>
> Wikimedia UK
>
> +44 (0) 207 065 0991
>
>
>
> Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and
> Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered
> Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT.
>
> Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The
> Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate
> Wikipedia, amongst other projects). *Wikimedia UK is an independent
> non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility
> for its contents.*
>
> ___
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> wikimediau...@wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk
>
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Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Digitisaton of East India Company/ India Office records

[Lucy Crompton-Reid]

Ah OK, so it may be politically tricky/insensitive. Thanks Gordo. It's not
an aspect of history I'm very familiar with but I suspect the answer to
your question was yes, it was! Certainly looks that way from the Wikipedia
page...

On 8 February 2017 at 08:57, Gordon Joly  wrote:

> On 06/02/17 13:36, Lucy Crompton-Reid wrote:
> >
> > Some of you may be aware that 2017 is the UK - India Year of Culture. I
> > guess this resource may relate to that, or it could be a coincidence.
> > Either way, it would be great to see what the potential is in terms of
> > the Wikimedia projects :)
> >
>
>
> I am not so sure. Wasn't the East India Company in reality a body that
> acted as if they were country of occupation in India?
>
> Gordon
>
>
>
> ___
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> WMUK: https://wikimedia.org.uk




-- 

Lucy Crompton-Reid

Chief Executive

Wikimedia UK

+44 (0) 207 065 0991



Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and
Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered
Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT.

Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The
Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate
Wikipedia, amongst other projects). *Wikimedia UK is an independent
non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility
for its contents.*
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Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Digitisaton of East India Company/ India Office records

[Charles Matthews]

> 
> On 08 February 2017 at 08:57 Gordon Joly  wrote:
> 
> 
> On 06/02/17 13:36, Lucy Crompton-Reid wrote:
> >
> > Some of you may be aware that 2017 is the UK - India Year of Culture. I
> > guess this resource may relate to that, or it could be a coincidence.
> > Either way, it would be great to see what the potential is in terms of
> > the Wikimedia projects :)
> >
> 
> 
> I am not so sure. Wasn't the East India Company in reality a body that
> acted as if they were country of occupation in India?
> 

Come now. The HEIC archives are of major historical significance, and that is
nothing to do with thinking about whether they should have. 

What I know about this, from a family member who writes on Indian history, is
that there is altogether too much documentation. That is, with the classic
historian's POV that you should master the documentary record, that proves too
much for a typical scholarly lifetime. Obviously better access, transcription,
indexation can make some impact there. 

People do write on Wikipedia about East India Company leaders in the three
presidencies. Often these articles are stubby and thinly referenced. Primary
sources are problematic for referencing, as we know. Still, Wikipedia should be
useful for annotation of this archive (i.e. encyclopedic material complements
primary documents).

Plenty of stubs to choose from.

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Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Digitisaton of East India Company/ India Office records

[Gordon Joly]

On 06/02/17 13:36, Lucy Crompton-Reid wrote:
> 
> Some of you may be aware that 2017 is the UK - India Year of Culture. I
> guess this resource may relate to that, or it could be a coincidence.
> Either way, it would be great to see what the potential is in terms of
> the Wikimedia projects :)
> 


I am not so sure. Wasn't the East India Company in reality a body that
acted as if they were country of occupation in India?

Gordon



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Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Digitisaton of East India Company/ India Office records

[Lucy Crompton-Reid]

Thanks for sharing this Andy.

Some of you may be aware that 2017 is the UK - India Year of Culture. I
guess this resource may relate to that, or it could be a coincidence.
Either way, it would be great to see what the potential is in terms of the
Wikimedia projects :)

Cheers
Lucy

On 6 February 2017 at 13:27, Andy Mabbett  wrote:

> This British library blog post may be of interest:
>
>http://blogs.bl.uk/untoldlives/2017/01/major-new-
> digital-resource-for-the-india-office-records.html
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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-- 

Lucy Crompton-Reid

Chief Executive

Wikimedia UK

+44 (0) 207 065 0991



Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and
Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered
Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT.

Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The
Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate
Wikipedia, amongst other projects). *Wikimedia UK is an independent
non-profit charity with no legal control over Wikipedia nor responsibility
for its contents.*
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