Re: [Wikitech-l] Code ideas thread

2012-08-26 Thread Daniel Friesen
On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 14:14:30 -0700, Daniel Friesen  
dan...@nadir-seen-fire.com wrote:


On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 11:24:46 -0700, Chris Steipp cste...@wikimedia.org  
wrote:


On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 10:33 AM, Nabil Maynard nadr...@gmail.com  
wrote:
On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Tyler Romeo tylerro...@gmail.com  
wrote:

Not a good idea: http://xkcd.com/927/
While OAuth has its problems, it's not a terrible protocol (or at  
least v1

isn't).


Randall is right in general about standards proliferation for standards  
sake.
But that's primarily about just writing a standard for other people to  
use.
If there are issues with the old standard, there is no significant  
advantage to use of the old spec (besides the case that it already  
exists, etc...), and you are intending to actually use the standard  
rather than just throw it out for people to use. Then that's really a  
valid situation to write a new standard in.


- OAuth 1 had some important issues too. In particular the temporary  
credentials and the limitations on the user experience caused by the  
single flow.
- The flow limitations is probably a big one for us. And it is possible  
to work around the issue by separating OAuth into two parts. But by  
doing that you diverge from the spec and there isn't much more reason to  
stick with that standard. And afaik the libraries for doing OAuth 1  
don't support these alternative types of flows.



Seconded -- I'd rather see contributions to making OAuth less painful
rather than invent Yet Another Standard.


I have to agree too. OAuth has problems, but it would allow several of
wmf's current integrations to be more secure overall, and that would
be a win for us. If Daniel is able to create a protocol that is as
secure, and easier for developers to use securely, then I will
definitely push to switch over. But until then, I'm still going to try
and get OAuth out.
Thanks. I already know what I have lying around in my head will keep  
OAuth 1 level security while making signatures easier to implement.  
Although the fundamental idea in this area is auth should always be done  
by a library/SDK anyways.
The stuff making my head spin actually isn't even any part of the basic  
auth. It's not even discovery itself. The hardest thing to figure out is  
what to do about making discovery and dynamic registration over HTTP  
secure.

Which frankly is something that no protocol has anyways.

The only problem with writing out an actual standard for the rest of the  
stuff is all my good hours are taken up by work. The leftovers wouldn't  
be enough to get out a good enough quality standard and  
reference/testing implementation.


I just spent two ENTIRE days in a trance with nothing but auth flows  
spinning around in my head.
All I was able to get out in writing so far is this draft collection of  
high-level auth flows to aim to support.

https://github.com/dantman/protoauth-spec/blob/master/auth-flows.md

Rather than jumping to get OAuth out what about first trying to get  
the fundamental base pieces we need for all of these into core. ie:  
Abstract authorizations and applications. Revocation pages. Attaching an  
authorization/application to changes like revisions, logs, etc... and  
tools to mass-revert by confidential application or multiple public  
authorizations.
We'll need that stuff no matter what we implement. And it's going to  
take awhile just to implement those things.
We can decide whether we want OAuth or something else when we finally  
get to that point.


I'd also love to see MediaWiki support SAML too, for our .edu/.gov  
users.


Did these organizations need to use those SAML credentials directly for  
API

things or is this just another method we want to support for logging in?


My personal wishlist:
 - Persona: Previously called BrowserID.  It's come a LONG way in the  
past

few months, and provides another fairly clean identity/authentication
system.


Mozilla is also interested in this. I don't think we can use it on wmf
sites, but if you're interested in working on it, I can probably get
you in touch with someone there. I think it would be a great feature.






--
~Daniel Friesen (Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) [http://daniel.friesen.name]

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Re: [Wikitech-l] [Wikitext-l] [X-POST][GSoC] Realtime Collaboration on VisualEditor

2012-08-26 Thread Ashish Dubey
I think the code has enough scope of getting refined before it is very much
ready to be integrated, especially the client side code.

Also, I think it would be enough time during which I can write some code
for supporting multiple editors, while keeping the existing code robust.

On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 1:07 AM, Sumana Harihareswara suma...@wikimedia.org
 wrote:

 Ashish, thanks for the writeup, and for your work!

 I see in

 https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Engineering/2012-13_Goals#Visual_Editor
 that integration of your work into VisualEditor is scheduled for
 sometime in April-June 2013.  What will you be doing to avoid code rot
 between now and then, to ensure that the VE team (including you) can
 perform that integration 8 months from now?

 Thanks again.

 --
 Sumana Harihareswara
 Engineering Community Manager
 Wikimedia Foundation




-- 
Ashish Dubey
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Appreciation thread

2012-08-26 Thread Mark A. Hershberger
On 08/24/2012 09:28 AM, Derric Atzrott wrote:
 MZMcBride for sparking some discussions that really needed to be
 discussed.

I was thinking of who I appreciated and thought I would mention MZ, too.

I do, of course, appreciate every one else who has been mentioned, but I
think it is important to mention MZ.

Although he is often seen as an irritant, the Foundation needs a
community member like MZ who sticks around (so he is familiar to the
people working in the Foundation) and who consistently and loudly
reminds the Foundation how they could better serve the community.

MZ plays an important part:  In an organisation like the WMF, groupthink
can be a problem.  MZ points out the problems that people would rather
ignore or gloss over.

Mark.

-- 
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Human evil is not a problem.  It is a mystery.  It cannot be solved.
  -- When Atheism Becomes a Religion, Chris Hedges

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Appreciation thread

2012-08-26 Thread Jon Robson


 MZ plays an important part:  In an organisation like the WMF, groupthink
 can be a problem.  MZ points out the problems that people would rather
 ignore or gloss over.


+1
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Re: [Wikitech-l] GSoC Project Update (ConventionExtension)

2012-08-26 Thread John Du Hart
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 8:40 AM, akshay chugh chughaksha...@gmail.com wrote:
 6. Parser tags, Magic Words (Variables) and a parser function
  parser tags -- conference, page, account,
 registration,passport,author,submission,event,organizer and
 location

This is a disgusting way to store data.

-- 
John

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Re: [Wikitech-l] GSoC Project Update (ConventionExtension)

2012-08-26 Thread akshay chugh
-1

On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 11:34 PM, John Du Hart compwhi...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 8:40 AM, akshay chugh chughaksha...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  6. Parser tags, Magic Words (Variables) and a parser function
   parser tags -- conference, page, account,
  registration,passport,author,submission,event,organizer and
  location

 This is a disgusting way to store data.

 --
 John

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Thanks,
Akshay Chugh
skype- chughakshay16
irc - chughakshay16(#mediawiki)
[[User:Chughakshay16]] on mediawiki.org
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code ideas thread

2012-08-26 Thread Mark A. Hershberger
On 08/24/2012 01:33 PM, Nabil Maynard wrote:
  - Persona: Previously called BrowserID.  It's come a LONG way in the past
 few months, and provides another fairly clean identity/authentication
 system.

As a bonus, there is already a BrowserID extension for Bugzilla that
Mozilla is using.  Maybe integrating MW and BrowserID would solve the
identity problem in Bugzilla.

-- 
http://hexmode.com/

Human evil is not a problem.  It is a mystery.  It cannot be solved.
  -- When Atheism Becomes a Religion, Chris Hedges

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code ideas thread

2012-08-26 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
2012/8/26 Mark A. Hershberger m...@everybody.org:
 On 08/24/2012 01:33 PM, Nabil Maynard wrote:
  - Persona: Previously called BrowserID.  It's come a LONG way in the past
 few months, and provides another fairly clean identity/authentication
 system.

 As a bonus, there is already a BrowserID extension for Bugzilla that
 Mozilla is using.  Maybe integrating MW and BrowserID would solve the
 identity problem in Bugzilla.

+[[Crore]].

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

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Re: [Wikitech-l] GSoC Project Update (ConventionExtension)

2012-08-26 Thread Brandon Harris

On Aug 26, 2012, at 11:04 AM, John Du Hart compwhi...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 This is a disgusting way to store data.
 

I don't think we need to talk to each other like this.


---
Brandon Harris, Senior Designer, Wikimedia Foundation

Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Wikimedians are rightfully wary

2012-08-26 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)

Daniel, interesting experience.
The case of requested configuration changes is rather simple though: 
they require consensus, so the place you were looking for is linked in 
comment 0. For the same reason, there's usually no need to tell the 
community, the reporter will take care of that.


Focused centralnotices, as proposed by Alex, are a definitely better 
system than spam on village pumps (which not everyone reads by the way).


Nemo

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Appreciation thread

2012-08-26 Thread MZMcBride
Sumana Harihareswara wrote:
 How about a little email thread for us to say nice things about each
 other?  Rules: be kind, thank someone, and say why you're thanking them.

I know a few people have thanked you for starting this thread, but I
actually came to appreciate you and your work much more in your absence
earlier this month. It wasn't as obvious how much you do (particularly in
bug wrangling and poking and prodding) until you were taking a well-deserved
vacation. The reward for a job well done is another three jobs, as David
Gerard says. Your ever-growing portfolio shows the truth in this.  :-)

I'm also very grateful for the patience of the wikitech-l community (and
more broadly the MediaWiki development community), who choose to put up with
me and other Wikimedians. It's no secret that Wikimedians are a pain in the
ass to work with: they're quite often hyper-critical, needy, insolent, and
stubborn. They complain loudly and congratulate softly. And this of course
doesn't get into the problems they cause by speaking far too many languages
and wanting MediaWiki to do everything under the sun. ;-)  But the
developers take it all in stride and they do their best to make the user
experience (software, hardware, and everything in between) better each
iteration, all while dealing with a sometimes painfully unsociable lot of
people. For that, I'm have a deep amount of appreciation and respect.

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikitech-l] GSoC Project Update (ConventionExtension)

2012-08-26 Thread K. Peachey
During your time in GSoC, what type of things did you mentor explain?


Because i've had a quick peruse of your gerrit change sets and I know
they are only minor but I do see a few things that our Coding
Conventions cover as well as stylize (which is a script that is can be
run)

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Re: [Wikitech-l] GSoC Project Update (ConventionExtension)

2012-08-26 Thread akshay chugh
Hello Peachey,

Honestly I never got into reading any Coding Conventions or style guide
while I was developing code for my extension, but I have been going through
them for the past couple of weeks and have been fixing those style issues
with my code since. Its only a matter of time before all such issues will
be addressed, I am continually working on fixing them. You can go and see
my latest patches where you will get a sense of all those issues being
taken care into account.
I have kept a todo list of all such comments which were posted in my
changesets, so before my code is finally ready to be tested or even reaches
a point of being presentable it will have all such elements that you are
trying to point out here.


On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 2:54 AM, K. Peachey p858sn...@gmail.com wrote:

 During your time in GSoC, what type of things did you mentor explain?


 Because i've had a quick peruse of your gerrit change sets and I know
 they are only minor but I do see a few things that our Coding
 Conventions cover as well as stylize (which is a script that is can be
 run)

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-- 
Thanks,
Akshay Chugh
skype- chughakshay16
irc - chughakshay16(#mediawiki)
[[User:Chughakshay16]] on mediawiki.org
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Re: [Wikitech-l] replacing Planet software soon

2012-08-26 Thread James Alexander
Thanks so much for all of your help with this Daniel. The Planet feeds have
been a bit neglected for a long while but I know that the people who read
them really really appreciate that we keep them going. The new version is
really nice and has fixed a couple weird issues we've been having.

To 2.0!

On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 4:49 PM, Daniel Zahn dz...@wikimedia.org wrote:

 Hi,

 i am planning to replace the current Planet Wikimedia software early next
 week.

 For those who might not even know planet:  What is planet? --
 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Planet_Wikimedia

 This is the current English planet as an example: --
 http://en.planet.wikimedia.org/

 The original planet software we have used up until now is
 unfortunately unmaintained and not available as a distribution package
 nor was it puppetized.

 First there was the original planet software (planetplanet.org), then
 development stopped and then later it was continued as Planet 2.0.
 Though there is also Planet Venus,  a radical refactoring of
 Planet 2.0, and that is available as an Ubuntu package in universe :)

 -- http://intertwingly.net/code/venus/  ,
 http://packages.ubuntu.com/da/precise/planet-venus

 ---
 quote from http://lwn.net/Articles/421348/:

 .. However, Planet's development seems to have slowed considerably —
 if not entirely stopped. The last updates in Jeff Waugh's repository
 are dated early 2007.

 Development seems to have carried on, somewhat quietly, with Planet
 Venus. It's not reflected on the Planet site at all, but digging
 through the mailing lists one finds development has continued under
 the name Venus or Planet Venus. Venus is a radical refactoring of
 Planet 2.0, and development discussions continue on the old Planet
 mailing lists
 ---

 Planet Venus uses html5lib, XSLT and Django templates to parse the
 feeds and create HTML.  You can read more about it here:
 http://planet.wmflabs.org/html/

 And here is a nice .svg showing the architecture is uses to parse
 feeds:  http://planet.wmflabs.org/html/venus.svg

 I had this running in labs for a while at http://planet.wmflabs.org/
 and puppetized it.

 You can find the puppet code in ./manifests/role/planet.pp and
 ./manifests/misc/planet.pp in the operations/puppet git repository.
 And recent changes can be found under topic branch planet.


 https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/gitweb?p=operations/puppet.git;a=blob;f=manifests/role/planet.pp;hb=HEAD


 https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/gitweb?p=operations/puppet.git;a=blob;f=manifests/misc/planet.pp;hb=HEAD

 Additionally, with the help of James Alexander (thanks!), we recently
 went through a major cleanup of feed URLs, fixing lots of
 redirected/moved feed URLs and removed broken feeds.

 This can be found here:

 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Planet_Wikimedia#Requests_for_Update_or_Removal
  which also links to gerrit.

 The new planet is already up here on a production host now:

 http://zirconium.wikimedia.org/planet/

 The English planet looks like this:
 http://zirconium.wikimedia.org/planet/en/

 That index.html page will disappear, it is just there to link to the
 different language planets for testing. So to get it live i will just
 switch DNS to point to the zirconium host and make the index redirect
 to the page on meta, as it does now.

 The feeds are currently all updated at 00:00 UTC via cron.

 If you see any issues with that, please speak up soon.

 And have a nice weekend,

 Daniel
 --
 Daniel Zahn dz...@wikimedia.org
 Operations Engineer

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Wikimedia Foundation
(415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Code ideas thread

2012-08-26 Thread Tyler Romeo

 If there are issues with the old standard, there is no significant
 advantage to use of the old spec (besides the case that it already exists,
 etc...), and you are intending to actually use the standard rather than
 just throw it out for people to use. Then that's really a valid situation
 to write a new standard in.


But the problem is that it already exists is in fact a valid reason to
use a protocol. There are numerous libraries out there (including a PHP
extension) that allow people to use OAuth to authenticate with services.
Making our own protocol just makes it more difficult for application
developers since, in addition to developing their application, they have to
make their own client side functionality to fulfill our custom protocol.
Furthermore, as I said before, OAuth 1 isn't bad. It provides for secure
authentication and authorization of the client while protecting against
replay attacks. Furthermore, I'd like to at least put some faith in the
IETF, considering they are quite intelligent people, and not just toss out
their protocol because it isn't perfect (quotes are intentional). If
somebody wants to go ahead and make an extension for a custom
authentication protocol, feel free to do so, but I still believe OAuth
support should be our ultimate goal in terms of third-party application
security.

*--*
*Tyler Romeo*
Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2015
Major in Computer Science
www.whizkidztech.com | tylerro...@gmail.com



On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Amir E. Aharoni 
amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:

 2012/8/26 Mark A. Hershberger m...@everybody.org:
  On 08/24/2012 01:33 PM, Nabil Maynard wrote:
   - Persona: Previously called BrowserID.  It's come a LONG way in the
 past
  few months, and provides another fairly clean identity/authentication
  system.
 
  As a bonus, there is already a BrowserID extension for Bugzilla that
  Mozilla is using.  Maybe integrating MW and BrowserID would solve the
  identity problem in Bugzilla.

 +[[Crore]].

 --
 Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
 http://aharoni.wordpress.com
 ‪“We're living in pieces,
 I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

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[Wikitech-l] CentralAuth API access

2012-08-26 Thread John
Central Auth has been around for about 5 years now and we still lack a
API to interact with it. There is no
blocking/unblocking/locking/unlocking ability at all. see
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23821 who do I need to
bribe/torture/put a fire underneath in order to get basic access to
said tools?


John

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Re: [Wikitech-l] [MediaWiki-l] CentralAuth API access

2012-08-26 Thread David Whitten
You know the rules:
If you suggest it and no one else volunteers,
then you are now the primary person in charge of getting it done...



On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 9:05 PM, John phoenixoverr...@gmail.com wrote:

 Central Auth has been around for about 5 years now and we still lack a
 API to interact with it. There is no
 blocking/unblocking/locking/unlocking ability at all. see
 https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23821 who do I need to
 bribe/torture/put a fire underneath in order to get basic access to
 said tools?


 John

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Re: [Wikitech-l] [MediaWiki-l] CentralAuth API access

2012-08-26 Thread John
if i knew php (may it forever rot in hell) it would already be done.
Since I dont know php it is up to someone else

On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 9:24 PM, David Whitten whit...@netcom.com wrote:
 You know the rules:
 If you suggest it and no one else volunteers,
 then you are now the primary person in charge of getting it done...



 On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 9:05 PM, John phoenixoverr...@gmail.com wrote:

 Central Auth has been around for about 5 years now and we still lack a
 API to interact with it. There is no
 blocking/unblocking/locking/unlocking ability at all. see
 https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23821 who do I need to
 bribe/torture/put a fire underneath in order to get basic access to
 said tools?


 John

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Re: [Wikitech-l] [MediaWiki-l] CentralAuth API access

2012-08-26 Thread Tyler Romeo
I would take it on, but unfortunately I'm trying to work on three different
things (and classes are starting for me). But if my time frees up as winter
draws closer I might consider doing it.

*--*
*Tyler Romeo*
Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2015
Major in Computer Science
www.whizkidztech.com | tylerro...@gmail.com



On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 9:26 PM, John phoenixoverr...@gmail.com wrote:

 if i knew php (may it forever rot in hell) it would already be done.
 Since I dont know php it is up to someone else

 On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 9:24 PM, David Whitten whit...@netcom.com wrote:
  You know the rules:
  If you suggest it and no one else volunteers,
  then you are now the primary person in charge of getting it done...
 
 
 
  On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 9:05 PM, John phoenixoverr...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Central Auth has been around for about 5 years now and we still lack a
  API to interact with it. There is no
  blocking/unblocking/locking/unlocking ability at all. see
  https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23821 who do I need to
  bribe/torture/put a fire underneath in order to get basic access to
  said tools?
 
 
  John
 
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Re: [Wikitech-l] CentralAuth API access

2012-08-26 Thread MZMcBride
John wrote:
 Central Auth has been around for about 5 years now and we still lack a
 API to interact with it. There is no
 blocking/unblocking/locking/unlocking ability at all. see
 https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23821 who do I need to
 bribe/torture/put a fire underneath in order to get basic access to
 said tools?

This was kind of enjoyable to investigate.

I was surprised to read that it's been five years. For the curious, Tim
Starling is user ID 1 in the CentralAuth database. His registration date is
04:16, 13 March 2008, so it's a bit closer to four and a half years:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAuth/Tim_Starling. :-)

Anyway, this is actually two bugs currently, both of which probably need to
be split out into more specific bugs:

* CentralAuth/global user rights/groups API; Get global user rights,
  membership to global groups; and userlist of global groups
  https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/16860

* Write API for CentralAuth extension
  https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/23821

The first bug is about read access; the second is about write access. The
problem you're hitting here is that developers don't do well with broad,
overly vague bugs like this. There needs to be something directly actionable
(e.g., implement this specific feature link to GUI version into the
API).

The read bug can probably be left alone (though it really is three separate
bugs rolled into one). It's straightforward enough, I think. I've gone ahead
and marked it as easy (with a keyword), which should hopefully get a few
more eyes on it.

For the write bug (bug 23821), you should file separate bugs for each
feature you want available in the API. Vague mega-bugs will almost always
get no response and your most recent comment on the bug (when asked for
clarification) was spectacularly unhelpful. You need to be specific and
detailed as humanly possible, describing exactly what you want, if you have
any chance of getting other who come along to help you out.

MZMcBride



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[Wikitech-l] Bugzilla Weekly Report

2012-08-26 Thread reporter
MediaWiki Bugzilla Report for August 20, 2012 - August 27, 2012

Status changes this week

Bugs NEW   :  413 
Bugs ASSIGNED  :  66  
Bugs REOPENED  :  32  
Bugs RESOLVED  :  247 

Total bugs still open: 8342

Resolutions for the week:

Bugs marked FIXED  :  167 
Bugs marked REMIND :  0   
Bugs marked INVALID:  21  
Bugs marked DUPLICATE  :  25  
Bugs marked WONTFIX:  19  
Bugs marked WORKSFORME :  10  
Bugs marked LATER  :  7   
Bugs marked MOVED  :  0   

Specific Product/Component Resolutions  User Metrics 

New Bugs Per Component

Scribunto   9   
Parser  6   
ArticleFeedbackv5   5   
UniversalLanguageSelector   5   
PageTriage  4   

New Bugs Per Product

MediaWiki   29  
Wikimedia   14  
MediaWiki extensions55  
Wikipedia App   1   
WikiLoves Monuments Mobile  7   

Top 5 Bug Resolvers

federicoleva [AT] tiscali.it45  
jrobson [AT] wikimedia.org  21  
s.mazeland [AT] xs4all.nl   11  
tparscal [AT] wikimedia.org 10  
hartman [AT] videolan.org   10  


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Re: [Wikitech-l] [MediaWiki-l] CentralAuth API access

2012-08-26 Thread Daniel Friesen
We need some sort of think tank (well some thing with a better name)  
non-profit that people donate to. To have it hire people to crank out  
MediaWiki features outside of just the stuff WMF wants.


I'd love to spend 80% of my time cranking out fringe MediaWiki features  
where what the community wants and what my specialties are intersect.


--
~Daniel Friesen (Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) [http://daniel.friesen.name]

On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 18:24:16 -0700, David Whitten whit...@netcom.com  
wrote:



You know the rules:
If you suggest it and no one else volunteers,
then you are now the primary person in charge of getting it done...



On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 9:05 PM, John phoenixoverr...@gmail.com wrote:


Central Auth has been around for about 5 years now and we still lack a
API to interact with it. There is no
blocking/unblocking/locking/unlocking ability at all. see
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23821 who do I need to
bribe/torture/put a fire underneath in order to get basic access to
said tools?


John



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