Re: [Wikitech-l] Status of Technical Collaboration Guidance discussion

[Rogol Domedonfors]

Derk-Jan

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 12:29 PM, you wrote:

> You mean like here: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Roadmap ?
>

No, because that page is not a roadmap but a list of pages none of which is
a roadmap in the sense I stated.


> Where it is already posting it's annual and quarterly plans to as much
> detail as anyone is able to predict a roadmap ?
>

A roadmap in the sense I asked for does not need to be detailed.  It does
need to be clear and comprehensible.  We know that there are longer terms
technical plans and projects (around parsers, editors and Flow) than these
plans which all seem to send within the next few months.


> No one from community is discussing it (at least other than those already
> discussing it before). This 'community participation' is nice and all, but
> time and again has shown, that most of the community simply doesn't have
> time to participate in mundane stuff like this. Which is logical, it's like
> asking all volunteers in the hospital to participate in hospital
> governance. Most of them are there to help patients, not to discuss
> politics. Of course, those who want to participate in governance should
> have the chance to involve themselves, and usually they do, but that's not
> most people.
> Also the community is heavily detached from practicalities that influence
> the planning and implementation, often causing them to go off into tangents
> that are super time intensive and inefficient for both parties, and not
> creating any additional value.
>
> It would be much better if we acknowledged such problems, rather than
> insist that there is a solution that we haven't spotted yet in 15 years...
> And that's exactly where I hope this guidance is going to land. A reference
> where we can mutually formalise our expectations, limitations and
> aspirations.
>
> DJ
>
> On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 8:19 AM, Rogol Domedonfors <domedonf...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > A good way of avoiding clashes would be to publish the technical roadmap
> > showing where WMF expects to be taking its technical development over the
> > next five years or so, for the community to discuss and comment on  I
> have
> > yet to hear any reason why this can not or should not be done.
> >
> > "Rogol"
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 1:48 AM, Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Quim,
> > >
> > > Thanks for the comments.
> > >
> > > A brief note about the goal of "there are no clashes between product
> > > development teams and communities". That is an ambitious goal around
> > here,
> > > partly because there are changes planned and happening concurrently in
> so
> > > many places that I think it would be a challenge to surface all
> potential
> > > conflicts early and make them visible to relevant community members.
> (As
> > an
> > > example, a change that might be received favorably on Wiki A might
> > generate
> > > a commotion on Wiki B because it broke an existing tool, made an
> existing
> > > workflow take longer, or conflicts with their community's priorities. A
> > > current example of this kind of situation is with Flow, which the last
> I
> > > heard is viewed favorably on Catalan Wikipedia and unfavorably on
> English
> > > Wikipedia). I'm not sure that clashes can be 100% prevented, but I'm
> > > thinking that once the Newsletter extension is working, that might be a
> > > useful way of informing more interested people in a more timely fashion
> > > about planned changes, and encouraging people to enroll as beta testers
> > and
> > > translators, so that there are fewer surprises.
> > >
> > > I think that what might be a more readily solvable problem would be a
> > > standardized way of resolving clashes between product teams and
> > communities
> > > so that, when such clashes almost inevitably happen at some point,
> > > resolution comes sooner rather than later and hopefully in a way that
> is
> > > mutually acceptable. Perhaps that could be discussed in the Technical
> > > Collaboration Guidance document.
> > >
> > > Pine
> > > ___
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> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > >
> > ___
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> >
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Status of Technical Collaboration Guidance discussion

[Rogol Domedonfors]

Derk-Jan

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 12:29 PM, you wrote:

> You mean like here: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Roadmap ?
>

No, because that page is not a roadmap but a list of pages none of which is
a roadmap in the sense I stated, and I rather think you knew that when you
referrd to it.


> Where it is already posting it's annual and quarterly plans to as much
> detail as anyone is able to predict a roadmap ?
>

A roadmap in the sense I asked for does not need to be detailed.  It does
need to be clear and comprehensible.  It looks out further than the end of
the current work year.  We know that there are longer terms technical plans
and projects (around parsers, editors and Flow) than these plans which all
seem to send within the next few months.


> Of course, those who want to participate in governance should
> have the chance to involve themselves, and usually they do, but that's not
> most people.
>

I wish that were ture, but it has not been my experience.

It would be much better if we acknowledged such problems, rather than
> insist that there is a solution that we haven't spotted yet in 15 years...
> And that's exactly where I hope this guidance is going to land. A reference
> where we can mutually formalise our expectations, limitations and
> aspirations.
>

This is exactly what I'm arguing for.  But this guidance seems unlikely to
achieve it.

"Rogol"
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Status of Technical Collaboration Guidance discussion

[Rogol Domedonfors]

A good way of avoiding clashes would be to publish the technical roadmap
showing where WMF expects to be taking its technical development over the
next five years or so, for the community to discuss and comment on  I have
yet to hear any reason why this can not or should not be done.

"Rogol"

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 1:48 AM, Pine W  wrote:

> Quim,
>
> Thanks for the comments.
>
> A brief note about the goal of "there are no clashes between product
> development teams and communities". That is an ambitious goal around here,
> partly because there are changes planned and happening concurrently in so
> many places that I think it would be a challenge to surface all potential
> conflicts early and make them visible to relevant community members. (As an
> example, a change that might be received favorably on Wiki A might generate
> a commotion on Wiki B because it broke an existing tool, made an existing
> workflow take longer, or conflicts with their community's priorities. A
> current example of this kind of situation is with Flow, which the last I
> heard is viewed favorably on Catalan Wikipedia and unfavorably on English
> Wikipedia). I'm not sure that clashes can be 100% prevented, but I'm
> thinking that once the Newsletter extension is working, that might be a
> useful way of informing more interested people in a more timely fashion
> about planned changes, and encouraging people to enroll as beta testers and
> translators, so that there are fewer surprises.
>
> I think that what might be a more readily solvable problem would be a
> standardized way of resolving clashes between product teams and communities
> so that, when such clashes almost inevitably happen at some point,
> resolution comes sooner rather than later and hopefully in a way that is
> mutually acceptable. Perhaps that could be discussed in the Technical
> Collaboration Guidance document.
>
> Pine
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Status of Technical Collaboration Guidance discussion

[Rogol Domedonfors]

So to whom is this going to be helpful and how?  That sounds like being
implemented to me, but apparently that isnt going to happen.

On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 7:57 PM, Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Venerability policy? That's a new one. Verifiability policy. (Spellcheck is
> not always a wiki-lawyer's best friend.)
>
> Pine
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 12:55 PM, Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Speaking generally, guidance can be helpful even if it's not a policy.
> > English Wikipedia has similar ways of organizing information and how-to
> > guides. Some guidance documents are categorized as essays, some as
> > guidelines, and some as policies. It's worth noting that enforcement is,
> > somewhat counter-intuitively, not tied directly to the "authority level"
> of
> > a document. For example, the venerability policy is frequently violated
> but
> > generally people are rarely blocked for violating it, while the
> exceptions
> > to norms that are tolerated under "Ignore All Rules" have become thin as
> > Wikipedia's complexity has grown and practices have become more detailed
> > and standardized. (I believe that Aaron Halfaker has done some research
> on
> > that last point.)
> >
> > Pine
> >
> > Pine
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 1:24 AM, Rogol Domedonfors <
> domedonf...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> If there's not going to be anything to implement, how do you see this as
> >> having an effect on anything?  What will be done differently or better?
> >> Why should anyone be doing any work on it?  How will we know whether or
> >> not
> >> it has been a success, and whther or not the time effort and effort was
> >> well-spent?
> >>
> >> "Rogol"
> >>
> >> On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 10:35 PM, Keegan Peterzell <
> >> kpeterz...@wikimedia.org
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 3:13 PM, Rogol Domedonfors <
> >> domedonf...@gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Is the *Technical Collaboration Guidance*
> >> > > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Technical_Collaboration_Guidance
> still
> >> > > actively under development?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ​Yes, there are internal stakeholder discussions still underway.
> >> > ​
> >> >
> >> > > There seems to have been no discussion of any
> >> > > substance since January.  Is there an intention to bring the
> >> discussion
> >> > to
> >> > > a close
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ​Eventually the plan is to remove the draft tag, yes.
> >> > ​
> >> >
> >> > > and to implement the guidance?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ​As guidance, there is nothing to "implement" as you say. As has been
> >> > discussed on the talk page, these are not rules to be placed into
> >> effect.
> >> > This is a guidance manual from the TC team. The guidance is available
> >> for
> >> > teams to check if they'd like a written resource for the type of work
> >> that
> >> > Community Liaisons generally do.​
> >> >
> >> > ​Further questions are welcome on the talk page, where discussions can
> >> be
> >> > properly captured on-wiki.​
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Keegan Peterzell
> >> > Technical Collaboration Specialist
> >> > Wikimedia Foundation
> >> > ___
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> >> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >> >
> >> ___
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> >>
> >
> >
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Status of Technical Collaboration Guidance discussion

[Rogol Domedonfors]

If there's not going to be anything to implement, how do you see this as
having an effect on anything?  What will be done differently or better?
Why should anyone be doing any work on it?  How will we know whether or not
it has been a success, and whther or not the time effort and effort was
well-spent?

"Rogol"

On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 10:35 PM, Keegan Peterzell <kpeterz...@wikimedia.org
> wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 3:13 PM, Rogol Domedonfors <domedonf...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Is the *Technical Collaboration Guidance*
> > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Technical_Collaboration_Guidance still
> > actively under development?
>
>
> ​Yes, there are internal stakeholder discussions still underway.
> ​
>
> > There seems to have been no discussion of any
> > substance since January.  Is there an intention to bring the discussion
> to
> > a close
>
>
> ​Eventually the plan is to remove the draft tag, yes.
> ​
>
> > and to implement the guidance?
>
>
> ​As guidance, there is nothing to "implement" as you say. As has been
> discussed on the talk page, these are not rules to be placed into effect.
> This is a guidance manual from the TC team. The guidance is available for
> teams to check if they'd like a written resource for the type of work that
> Community Liaisons generally do.​
>
> ​Further questions are welcome on the talk page, where discussions can be
> properly captured on-wiki.​
>
> --
> Keegan Peterzell
> Technical Collaboration Specialist
> Wikimedia Foundation
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[Wikitech-l] Status of Technical Collaboration Guidance discussion

[Rogol Domedonfors]

Is the *Technical Collaboration Guidance*
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Technical_Collaboration_Guidance still
actively under development?  There seems to have been no discussion of any
substance since January.  Is there an intention to bring the discussion to
a close and to implement the guidance?  Or is it going to fade quietly away
like its predecessor, the stalled *WMF product development process*
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/WMF_product_development_process ?

"Rogol"
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