Re: [Wikitech-l] Peer-to-peer sharing of the content of Wikipedia through WebRTC
On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 4:02 PM, Bryan Davis wrote: > On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 4:03 PM, Brian Wolff wrote: >> >> If we wanted to address such a situation, it sounds like it would be >> less complex to just setup a varnish box (With access to the HTCP >> cache clear packets), on that campus. > > This is an idea I've casually thought about but never put any real > work towards. It would be pretty neat to have something similar to the > Netflix Open Connect appliance [0] available for Wikimedia projects. This has a very strong "back to the future" ring to it. We started our caching layers back in 2004 with an eye towards bandwidth / housing donations from universities and ISPs [1], and indeed benefited from such donations in Amsterdam (Kennisnet), Paris and Seoul (Yahoo). Of these, only the Amsterdam PoP has survived, and is now in our own management. Gabriel [1]: http://web.archive.org/web/20040710213535/http://www.aulinx.de/oss/code/wikipedia/ ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Peer-to-peer sharing of the content of Wikipedia through WebRTC
On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 4:03 PM, Brian Wolff wrote: > > If we wanted to address such a situation, it sounds like it would be > less complex to just setup a varnish box (With access to the HTCP > cache clear packets), on that campus. This is an idea I've casually thought about but never put any real work towards. It would be pretty neat to have something similar to the Netflix Open Connect appliance [0] available for Wikimedia projects. [0]: https://openconnect.netflix.com/ Bryan -- Bryan Davis Wikimedia Foundation [[m:User:BDavis_(WMF)]] Sr Software EngineerBoise, ID USA irc: bd808v:415.839.6885 x6855 ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Peer-to-peer sharing of the content of Wikipedia through WebRTC
On 11/30/15, Purodha Blissenbach wrote: > On 30.11.2015 20:47, Ryan Lane wrote: >> On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Yeongjin Jang >> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> I recall that I saw financial statement of WMF that states around >>> $2.3M >>> was spent for Internet Hosting. I am not sure whether it includes >>> management cost for computing resources >>> (server clusters such as eqiad) or not. >>> >>> >> That's the cost for datacenters, hardware, bandwidth, etc.. >> >> >>> Not sure following simple calculation works; >>> 117 TB per day, for 365 days, if $0.05 per GB, then it is around >>> $2.2M. >>> Maybe it would be more accurate if I contact analytics team >>> directly. >>> >>> >> That calculation doesn't work because it doesn't take into account >> peering >> agreements, or donated (or heavily discounted) transit contracts. >> Bandwidth >> is one of the cheaper overall costs. >> >> Something your design doesn't take into account for bandwidth costs >> is that >> the world is trending to mobile and mobile bandwidth costs are >> generally >> very high. It's likely this p2p approach will be many orders of >> magnitude >> more expensive than the current approach. >> >> A decentralized approach doesn't benefit from the economics of scale. >> Instead of being able to negotiate transit pricing and eliminating >> cost >> through peering, you're externalizing the cost at the consumer rate, >> which >> is the highest possible rate. > > While that is often true, there are notable exception, growing both in > scale > and number. > > a) We have campus situations where a large university, company, or > public > agency with tens or hundreds of thousands of peers run a network that > they > pay for anyways, that is needed for peers to connect to Wiki* anyways, > and > that is available to peers at no (additional) cost. While external > traffic cost > are of relatively little concern, quick response times often are, > especially > in classroom situations where up to several hundred students may look > at > the same articles virtually at once. If we wanted to address such a situation, it sounds like it would be less complex to just setup a varnish box (With access to the HTCP cache clear packets), on that campus. -- -bawolff ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Peer-to-peer sharing of the content of Wikipedia through WebRTC
On 30.11.2015 20:47, Ryan Lane wrote: On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Yeongjin Jang wrote: I recall that I saw financial statement of WMF that states around $2.3M was spent for Internet Hosting. I am not sure whether it includes management cost for computing resources (server clusters such as eqiad) or not. That's the cost for datacenters, hardware, bandwidth, etc.. Not sure following simple calculation works; 117 TB per day, for 365 days, if $0.05 per GB, then it is around $2.2M. Maybe it would be more accurate if I contact analytics team directly. That calculation doesn't work because it doesn't take into account peering agreements, or donated (or heavily discounted) transit contracts. Bandwidth is one of the cheaper overall costs. Something your design doesn't take into account for bandwidth costs is that the world is trending to mobile and mobile bandwidth costs are generally very high. It's likely this p2p approach will be many orders of magnitude more expensive than the current approach. A decentralized approach doesn't benefit from the economics of scale. Instead of being able to negotiate transit pricing and eliminating cost through peering, you're externalizing the cost at the consumer rate, which is the highest possible rate. While that is often true, there are notable exception, growing both in scale and number. a) We have campus situations where a large university, company, or public agency with tens or hundreds of thousands of peers run a network that they pay for anyways, that is needed for peers to connect to Wiki* anyways, and that is available to peers at no (additional) cost. While external traffic cost are of relatively little concern, quick response times often are, especially in classroom situations where up to several hundred students may look at the same articles virtually at once. b) There is a fast growing international movement for open wireless radio networks (freifunk) of comparatively low bandwidth in neighborhoods. Those can benefit a lot from local peering, imho. Purodha The other scalability concern would be for obscure articles. I havent really looked at your code, so maybe you cover it - but wikipedia has over 5 million articles (and a lot more when you count non-content pages). The group of peers is presumably going to have high churn (since they go away when you browse somewhere else). Id worry the overhead of keeping track of which peer knows what, especially given how fast the peers change to be a lot. I also expect that for lots of articles, only a very small number of peers will know them. That's true. Dynamically registering / un-registering lookup table gives high overhead on the servers (in both computation & memory usage). Distributed solutions like DHT is there, but we think there could be a trade-off on lookup time for using de-centralized (managing lookup table on the server) versus fully distributed architecture (DHT). Our prior "naive" implementation costs like if each user has 5K pages cached (with around 50K images), when 10K concurrent user presents it consumes around 35GB of memory, and each registering incurs 500K bytes of network traffic. We thought it is not that useful, so now we are trying to come up with more lightweight implementation. We hope to have a practically meaningful micro-benchmark result on the new implementation. Just the metadata for articles, images and revisions is going to be massive. That data itself will need to be distributed too. The network costs associated with just lookups is going to be quite expensive for peers. It seems your project assumes that bandwidth is unlimited and unrated, which for many parts of the world isn't true. I don't mean to dissuade you. The idea of a p2p Wikipedia is an interesting project, and at some point in the future if bandwidth is free and unrated everywhere this may be a reasonable way to provide a method of access in case of major disaster of Wikipedia itself. This idea has been brought up numerous times in the past, though, and in general the potential gains are never better than the latency, cost, and complexity associated with it. - Ryan ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Peer-to-peer sharing of the content of Wikipedia through WebRTC
This is something we really wanted to have at One Laptop Per Child, and I'm glad you're looking into it! In our case, we wanted to be able to provide schools a complete copy of wikipedia, but could only afford to dedicate about 100MB/student to the cause (at the time, I think our entire machine had 4GB of storage). We ended up using a highly-compressed wikipedia "slice" combining the most popular articles with a set of articles spidered from a list of educational topics (so you'd be sure to get articles on all the elements, all the planets, etc). But what we really *wanted* to do was to split up the content among the kid's machines, as you've done, so that between them all they could have access to a much broader slice of wikipedia. Now a days, with lower storage costs, it's possible we could give students a much broader slice of the *text* of wikipedia articles, and still use the peer-to-peer approach to serve the *media* associated with the articles (which is much larger than the text content). The other side of this coin is supporting editability. We were always dissatisfied with our read-only slices of the Wiki -- true empowerment means being able to add and edit content, not just passively consume it. Of course, collaboratively editing a wikipedia in a peer-to-peer fashion is a very interesting research project. I wonder if you think this sort of thing is in scope for your work. --scott On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 1:45 AM, Yeongjin Jang wrote: > > Hi, > > I am Yeongjin Jang, a Ph.D. Student at Georgia Tech. > > In our lab (SSLab, https://sslab.gtisc.gatech.edu/), > we are working on a project called B2BWiki, > which enables users to share the contents of Wikipedia through WebRTC > (peer-to-peer sharing). > > Website is at here: http://b2bwiki.cc.gatech.edu/ > > The project aims to help Wikipedia by donating computing resources > from the community; users can donate their traffic (by P2P communication) > and storage (indexedDB) to reduce the load of Wikipedia servers. > For larger organizations, e.g. schools or companies that > have many local users, they can donate a mirror server > similar to GNU FTP servers, which can bootstrap peer sharing. > > > Potential benefits that we think of are following. > 1) Users can easily donate their resources to the community. > Just visit the website. > > 2) Users can get performance benefit if a page is loaded from > multiple local peers / local mirror (page load time got faster!). > > 3) Wikipedia can reduce its server workload, network traffic, etc. > > 4) Local network operators can reduce network traffic transit > (e.g. cost that is caused by delivering the traffic to the outside). > > > While we are working on enhancing the implementation, > we would like to ask the opinions from actual developers of Wikipedia. > For example, we want to know whether our direction is correct or not > (will it actually reduce the load?), or if there are some other concerns > that we missed, that can potentially prevent this system from > working as intended. We really want to do somewhat meaningful work > that actually helps run Wikipedia! > > Please feel free to give as any suggestions, comments, etc. > If you want to express your opinion privately, > please contact ss...@cc.gatech.edu. > > Thanks, > > --- Appendix --- > > I added some detailed information about B2BWiki in the following. > > # Accessing data > When accessing a page on B2BWiki, the browser will query peers first. > 1) If there exist peers that hold the contents, peer to peer download > happens. > 2) otherwise, if there is no peer, client will download the content > from the mirror server. > 3) If mirror server does not have the content, it downloads from > Wikipedia server (1 access per first download, and update). > > > # Peer lookup > To enable content lookup for peers, > we manage a lookup server that holds a page_name-to-peer map. > A client (a user's browser) can query the list of peers that > currently hold the content, and select the peer by its freshness > (has hash/timestamp of the content, > has top 2 octet of IP address > (figuring out whether it is local peer or not), etc. > > > # Update, and integrity check > Mirror server updates its content per each day > (can be configured to update per each hour, etc). > Update check is done by using If-Modified-Since header from Wikipedia > server. > On retrieving the content from Wikipedia, the mirror server stamps a > timestamp > and sha1 checksum, to ensure the freshness of data and its integrity. > When clients lookup and download the content from the peers, > client will compare the sha1 checksum of data > with the checksum from lookup server. > > In this settings, users can get older data > (they can configure how to tolerate the freshness of data, > e.g. 1day older, 3day, 1 week older, etc.), and > the integrity is guaranteed by mirror/lookup server. > > > More detailed information can be obtained from the following website. > > http://goo.gl/pSN
Re: [Wikitech-l] Peer-to-peer sharing of the content of Wikipedia through WebRTC
On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Yeongjin Jang wrote: > > I recall that I saw financial statement of WMF that states around $2.3M > was spent for Internet Hosting. I am not sure whether it includes > management cost for computing resources > (server clusters such as eqiad) or not. > > That's the cost for datacenters, hardware, bandwidth, etc.. > Not sure following simple calculation works; > 117 TB per day, for 365 days, if $0.05 per GB, then it is around $2.2M. > Maybe it would be more accurate if I contact analytics team directly. > > That calculation doesn't work because it doesn't take into account peering agreements, or donated (or heavily discounted) transit contracts. Bandwidth is one of the cheaper overall costs. Something your design doesn't take into account for bandwidth costs is that the world is trending to mobile and mobile bandwidth costs are generally very high. It's likely this p2p approach will be many orders of magnitude more expensive than the current approach. A decentralized approach doesn't benefit from the economics of scale. Instead of being able to negotiate transit pricing and eliminating cost through peering, you're externalizing the cost at the consumer rate, which is the highest possible rate. > The other scalability concern would be for obscure articles. I havent > really looked at your code, so maybe you cover it - but wikipedia has over > 5 million articles (and a lot more when you count non-content pages). The > group of peers is presumably going to have high churn (since they go away > when you browse somewhere else). Id worry the overhead of keeping track of > which peer knows what, especially given how fast the peers change to be a > lot. I also expect that for lots of articles, only a very small number of > peers will know them. > > > That's true. Dynamically registering / un-registering lookup table gives > high > overhead on the servers (in both computation & memory usage). > Distributed solutions like DHT is there, but we think there could be a > trade-off > on lookup time for using de-centralized (managing lookup table on the > server) > versus fully distributed architecture (DHT). > > Our prior "naive" implementation costs like if each user has > 5K pages cached (with around 50K images), > when 10K concurrent user presents it consumes around 35GB > of memory, and each registering incurs 500K bytes of network traffic. > > We thought it is not that useful, so now we are trying to come up with > more lightweight implementation. We hope to have a practically meaningful > micro-benchmark result on the new implementation. > > Just the metadata for articles, images and revisions is going to be massive. That data itself will need to be distributed too. The network costs associated with just lookups is going to be quite expensive for peers. It seems your project assumes that bandwidth is unlimited and unrated, which for many parts of the world isn't true. I don't mean to dissuade you. The idea of a p2p Wikipedia is an interesting project, and at some point in the future if bandwidth is free and unrated everywhere this may be a reasonable way to provide a method of access in case of major disaster of Wikipedia itself. This idea has been brought up numerous times in the past, though, and in general the potential gains are never better than the latency, cost, and complexity associated with it. - Ryan ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Peer-to-peer sharing of the content of Wikipedia through WebRTC
On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 1:36 PM, Yeongjin Jang wrote: > > *Privacy concerns - Would a malicious person be able to force > > themselves to be someone's preferred peer, and spy on everything they > > read, etc. > > > > *DOS concerns - Would a malicious peer or peers be able to prevent an > > honest user from connecting to the website? (I didn't look in detail > > at how you select peers and handle peer failure, so I'm not sure if > > this applies) > > > > > Nice points! For privacy, we want to implement k-anonymity scheme on > the page access. However, it incurs more bandwidth consumption and > potential performance overhead on the system. > > Malicious peers can act as if they hold legitimate content > (while actually not), or making null request to the peers. > We are currently thinking about black-listing such malicious peers, > and live-migration of mirror/peer servers if they fails, > but more fundamental remedy is required. Those are interesting ideas, although I'm skeptical you're going to be able to successfully keep malicious peers from tracking users' reading habits, in the same way that law enforcement tracks bittorrent downloads. But it would be great to hear proposals you come up with. I haven't looked at the code, but are you also preventing malicious peers from modifying the content? ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Peer-to-peer sharing of the content of Wikipedia through WebRTC
On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Brian Wolff wrote: > On Saturday, November 28, 2015, Yeongjin Jang > wrote: > > Thank you for your comments! > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 2:33 PM, Brian Wolff wrote: > > > >> On 11/28/15, Yeongjin Jang wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi, > >> > > >> > I am Yeongjin Jang, a Ph.D. Student at Georgia Tech. > >> > > >> > In our lab (SSLab, https://sslab.gtisc.gatech.edu/), > >> > we are working on a project called B2BWiki, > >> > which enables users to share the contents of Wikipedia through WebRTC > >> > (peer-to-peer sharing). > >> > > >> > Website is at here: http://b2bwiki.cc.gatech.edu/ > >> > > >> > The project aims to help Wikipedia by donating computing resources > >> > from the community; users can donate their traffic (by P2P > communication) > >> > and storage (indexedDB) to reduce the load of Wikipedia servers. > >> > For larger organizations, e.g. schools or companies that > >> > have many local users, they can donate a mirror server > >> > similar to GNU FTP servers, which can bootstrap peer sharing. > >> > > >> > > >> > Potential benefits that we think of are following. > >> > 1) Users can easily donate their resources to the community. > >> > Just visit the website. > >> > > >> > 2) Users can get performance benefit if a page is loaded from > >> > multiple local peers / local mirror (page load time got faster!). > >> > > >> > 3) Wikipedia can reduce its server workload, network traffic, etc. > >> > > >> > 4) Local network operators can reduce network traffic transit > >> > (e.g. cost that is caused by delivering the traffic to the outside). > >> > > >> > > >> > While we are working on enhancing the implementation, > >> > we would like to ask the opinions from actual developers of Wikipedia. > >> > For example, we want to know whether our direction is correct or not > >> > (will it actually reduce the load?), or if there are some other > concerns > >> > that we missed, that can potentially prevent this system from > >> > working as intended. We really want to do somewhat meaningful work > >> > that actually helps run Wikipedia! > >> > > >> > Please feel free to give as any suggestions, comments, etc. > >> > If you want to express your opinion privately, > >> > please contact ss...@cc.gatech.edu. > >> > > >> > Thanks, > >> > > >> > --- Appendix --- > >> > > >> > I added some detailed information about B2BWiki in the following. > >> > > >> > # Accessing data > >> > When accessing a page on B2BWiki, the browser will query peers first. > >> > 1) If there exist peers that hold the contents, peer to peer download > >> > happens. > >> > 2) otherwise, if there is no peer, client will download the content > >> > from the mirror server. > >> > 3) If mirror server does not have the content, it downloads from > >> > Wikipedia server (1 access per first download, and update). > >> > > >> > > >> > # Peer lookup > >> > To enable content lookup for peers, > >> > we manage a lookup server that holds a page_name-to-peer map. > >> > A client (a user's browser) can query the list of peers that > >> > currently hold the content, and select the peer by its freshness > >> > (has hash/timestamp of the content, > >> > has top 2 octet of IP address > >> > (figuring out whether it is local peer or not), etc. > >> > > >> > > >> > # Update, and integrity check > >> > Mirror server updates its content per each day > >> > (can be configured to update per each hour, etc). > >> > Update check is done by using If-Modified-Since header from Wikipedia > >> > server. > >> > On retrieving the content from Wikipedia, the mirror server stamps a > >> > timestamp > >> > and sha1 checksum, to ensure the freshness of data and its integrity. > >> > When clients lookup and download the content from the peers, > >> > client will compare the sha1 checksum of data > >> > with the checksum from lookup server. > >> > > >> > In this settings, users can get older data > >> > (they can configure how to tolerate the freshness of data, > >> > e.g. 1day older, 3day, 1 week older, etc.), and > >> > the integrity is guaranteed by mirror/lookup server. > >> > > >> > > >> > More detailed information can be obtained from the following website. > >> > > >> > http://goo.gl/pSNrjR > >> > (URL redirects to SSLab@gatech website) > >> > > >> > Please feel free to give as any suggestions, comments, etc. > >> > > >> > Thanks, > >> > -- > >> > Yeongjin Jang > >> > > >> > > >> > ___ > >> > Wikitech-l mailing list > >> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> This is some interesting stuff, and I think research along these lines > >> (That is, leveraging webrtc to deliver content in a P2P manner over > >> web browsers) will really change the face of the internet in the years > >> to come. > >> > >> As for Wikipedia specifically (This is all just my personal opinion. > >> Others may disagree with me): > >> > >> *W
Re: [Wikitech-l] Peer-to-peer sharing of the content of Wikipedia through WebRTC
On the matter of who has what etc., Brewster Kahle has opinions on implementation: http://brewster.kahle.org/2015/08/11/locking-the-web-open-a-call-for-a-distributed-web-2/ «Fortunately, the needed technologies are now available in JavaScript, Bitcoin, IPFS/Bittorrent, Namecoin, and others.» Nemo ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Peer-to-peer sharing of the content of Wikipedia through WebRTC
On Saturday, November 28, 2015, Yeongjin Jang wrote: > Thank you for your comments! > > > On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 2:33 PM, Brian Wolff wrote: > >> On 11/28/15, Yeongjin Jang wrote: >> > >> > Hi, >> > >> > I am Yeongjin Jang, a Ph.D. Student at Georgia Tech. >> > >> > In our lab (SSLab, https://sslab.gtisc.gatech.edu/), >> > we are working on a project called B2BWiki, >> > which enables users to share the contents of Wikipedia through WebRTC >> > (peer-to-peer sharing). >> > >> > Website is at here: http://b2bwiki.cc.gatech.edu/ >> > >> > The project aims to help Wikipedia by donating computing resources >> > from the community; users can donate their traffic (by P2P communication) >> > and storage (indexedDB) to reduce the load of Wikipedia servers. >> > For larger organizations, e.g. schools or companies that >> > have many local users, they can donate a mirror server >> > similar to GNU FTP servers, which can bootstrap peer sharing. >> > >> > >> > Potential benefits that we think of are following. >> > 1) Users can easily donate their resources to the community. >> > Just visit the website. >> > >> > 2) Users can get performance benefit if a page is loaded from >> > multiple local peers / local mirror (page load time got faster!). >> > >> > 3) Wikipedia can reduce its server workload, network traffic, etc. >> > >> > 4) Local network operators can reduce network traffic transit >> > (e.g. cost that is caused by delivering the traffic to the outside). >> > >> > >> > While we are working on enhancing the implementation, >> > we would like to ask the opinions from actual developers of Wikipedia. >> > For example, we want to know whether our direction is correct or not >> > (will it actually reduce the load?), or if there are some other concerns >> > that we missed, that can potentially prevent this system from >> > working as intended. We really want to do somewhat meaningful work >> > that actually helps run Wikipedia! >> > >> > Please feel free to give as any suggestions, comments, etc. >> > If you want to express your opinion privately, >> > please contact ss...@cc.gatech.edu. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > --- Appendix --- >> > >> > I added some detailed information about B2BWiki in the following. >> > >> > # Accessing data >> > When accessing a page on B2BWiki, the browser will query peers first. >> > 1) If there exist peers that hold the contents, peer to peer download >> > happens. >> > 2) otherwise, if there is no peer, client will download the content >> > from the mirror server. >> > 3) If mirror server does not have the content, it downloads from >> > Wikipedia server (1 access per first download, and update). >> > >> > >> > # Peer lookup >> > To enable content lookup for peers, >> > we manage a lookup server that holds a page_name-to-peer map. >> > A client (a user's browser) can query the list of peers that >> > currently hold the content, and select the peer by its freshness >> > (has hash/timestamp of the content, >> > has top 2 octet of IP address >> > (figuring out whether it is local peer or not), etc. >> > >> > >> > # Update, and integrity check >> > Mirror server updates its content per each day >> > (can be configured to update per each hour, etc). >> > Update check is done by using If-Modified-Since header from Wikipedia >> > server. >> > On retrieving the content from Wikipedia, the mirror server stamps a >> > timestamp >> > and sha1 checksum, to ensure the freshness of data and its integrity. >> > When clients lookup and download the content from the peers, >> > client will compare the sha1 checksum of data >> > with the checksum from lookup server. >> > >> > In this settings, users can get older data >> > (they can configure how to tolerate the freshness of data, >> > e.g. 1day older, 3day, 1 week older, etc.), and >> > the integrity is guaranteed by mirror/lookup server. >> > >> > >> > More detailed information can be obtained from the following website. >> > >> > http://goo.gl/pSNrjR >> > (URL redirects to SSLab@gatech website) >> > >> > Please feel free to give as any suggestions, comments, etc. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > -- >> > Yeongjin Jang >> > >> > >> > ___ >> > Wikitech-l mailing list >> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l >> >> Hi, >> >> This is some interesting stuff, and I think research along these lines >> (That is, leveraging webrtc to deliver content in a P2P manner over >> web browsers) will really change the face of the internet in the years >> to come. >> >> As for Wikipedia specifically (This is all just my personal opinion. >> Others may disagree with me): >> >> *Wikipedia is a a fairly stable/mature site. I think we're past the >> point where its a good idea to experiment with experimental >> technologies (Although mirrors of Wikipedia are a good place to do >> that). We need stability and proven technology. >> > > > That's true. Our current prototype works well for
Re: [Wikitech-l] Peer-to-peer sharing of the content of Wikipedia through WebRTC
Thank you for your comments! On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 2:33 PM, Brian Wolff wrote: > On 11/28/15, Yeongjin Jang wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I am Yeongjin Jang, a Ph.D. Student at Georgia Tech. > > > > In our lab (SSLab, https://sslab.gtisc.gatech.edu/), > > we are working on a project called B2BWiki, > > which enables users to share the contents of Wikipedia through WebRTC > > (peer-to-peer sharing). > > > > Website is at here: http://b2bwiki.cc.gatech.edu/ > > > > The project aims to help Wikipedia by donating computing resources > > from the community; users can donate their traffic (by P2P communication) > > and storage (indexedDB) to reduce the load of Wikipedia servers. > > For larger organizations, e.g. schools or companies that > > have many local users, they can donate a mirror server > > similar to GNU FTP servers, which can bootstrap peer sharing. > > > > > > Potential benefits that we think of are following. > > 1) Users can easily donate their resources to the community. > > Just visit the website. > > > > 2) Users can get performance benefit if a page is loaded from > > multiple local peers / local mirror (page load time got faster!). > > > > 3) Wikipedia can reduce its server workload, network traffic, etc. > > > > 4) Local network operators can reduce network traffic transit > > (e.g. cost that is caused by delivering the traffic to the outside). > > > > > > While we are working on enhancing the implementation, > > we would like to ask the opinions from actual developers of Wikipedia. > > For example, we want to know whether our direction is correct or not > > (will it actually reduce the load?), or if there are some other concerns > > that we missed, that can potentially prevent this system from > > working as intended. We really want to do somewhat meaningful work > > that actually helps run Wikipedia! > > > > Please feel free to give as any suggestions, comments, etc. > > If you want to express your opinion privately, > > please contact ss...@cc.gatech.edu. > > > > Thanks, > > > > --- Appendix --- > > > > I added some detailed information about B2BWiki in the following. > > > > # Accessing data > > When accessing a page on B2BWiki, the browser will query peers first. > > 1) If there exist peers that hold the contents, peer to peer download > > happens. > > 2) otherwise, if there is no peer, client will download the content > > from the mirror server. > > 3) If mirror server does not have the content, it downloads from > > Wikipedia server (1 access per first download, and update). > > > > > > # Peer lookup > > To enable content lookup for peers, > > we manage a lookup server that holds a page_name-to-peer map. > > A client (a user's browser) can query the list of peers that > > currently hold the content, and select the peer by its freshness > > (has hash/timestamp of the content, > > has top 2 octet of IP address > > (figuring out whether it is local peer or not), etc. > > > > > > # Update, and integrity check > > Mirror server updates its content per each day > > (can be configured to update per each hour, etc). > > Update check is done by using If-Modified-Since header from Wikipedia > > server. > > On retrieving the content from Wikipedia, the mirror server stamps a > > timestamp > > and sha1 checksum, to ensure the freshness of data and its integrity. > > When clients lookup and download the content from the peers, > > client will compare the sha1 checksum of data > > with the checksum from lookup server. > > > > In this settings, users can get older data > > (they can configure how to tolerate the freshness of data, > > e.g. 1day older, 3day, 1 week older, etc.), and > > the integrity is guaranteed by mirror/lookup server. > > > > > > More detailed information can be obtained from the following website. > > > > http://goo.gl/pSNrjR > > (URL redirects to SSLab@gatech website) > > > > Please feel free to give as any suggestions, comments, etc. > > > > Thanks, > > -- > > Yeongjin Jang > > > > > > ___ > > Wikitech-l mailing list > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l > > Hi, > > This is some interesting stuff, and I think research along these lines > (That is, leveraging webrtc to deliver content in a P2P manner over > web browsers) will really change the face of the internet in the years > to come. > > As for Wikipedia specifically (This is all just my personal opinion. > Others may disagree with me): > > *Wikipedia is a a fairly stable/mature site. I think we're past the > point where its a good idea to experiment with experimental > technologies (Although mirrors of Wikipedia are a good place to do > that). We need stability and proven technology. > That's true. Our current prototype works well for the testing, but not sure for the robustness in the wild, yet. We want to develop this to be more stable. > > *Bandwidth makes up a very small portion of WMF's expenses (I'm not > sure
Re: [Wikitech-l] Peer-to-peer sharing of the content of Wikipedia through WebRTC
Thank you for your attention! We would love to talk with you. Regarding Hangout meeting, we are available M-F in the next week and further weeks. Please consider that we are living in Eastern US Time so between 10am - 8pm EST will be mostly available. On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 3:50 AM, Pine W wrote: > Thanks for this initiative. > > I think that concerns at the moment would be in the domains of privacy, > security, lack of WMF analytics intstrumentation, and WMF fundraising > limitations. > > That said, looking in the longer term, a number of us in the community are > interested in decreasing our dependencies on the Wikimedia Foundation as > insurance against possible catastrophes and as a backup plan in case of > another significant WMF dispute with the community. It might be worth > exploring the options for setting up Wikipedia on infrastructure outside of > WMF. I would be interested in talking with you to discuss this further; > please let me know if you have time for a Hangout session in early to mid > December. > > Thank you for your interest! > Pine > On Nov 27, 2015 10:50 PM, "Yeongjin Jang" > wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > I am Yeongjin Jang, a Ph.D. Student at Georgia Tech. > > > > In our lab (SSLab, https://sslab.gtisc.gatech.edu/), > > we are working on a project called B2BWiki, > > which enables users to share the contents of Wikipedia through WebRTC > > (peer-to-peer sharing). > > > > Website is at here: http://b2bwiki.cc.gatech.edu/ > > > > The project aims to help Wikipedia by donating computing resources > > from the community; users can donate their traffic (by P2P communication) > > and storage (indexedDB) to reduce the load of Wikipedia servers. > > For larger organizations, e.g. schools or companies that > > have many local users, they can donate a mirror server > > similar to GNU FTP servers, which can bootstrap peer sharing. > > > > > > Potential benefits that we think of are following. > > 1) Users can easily donate their resources to the community. > > Just visit the website. > > > > 2) Users can get performance benefit if a page is loaded from > > multiple local peers / local mirror (page load time got faster!). > > > > 3) Wikipedia can reduce its server workload, network traffic, etc. > > > > 4) Local network operators can reduce network traffic transit > > (e.g. cost that is caused by delivering the traffic to the outside). > > > > > > While we are working on enhancing the implementation, > > we would like to ask the opinions from actual developers of Wikipedia. > > For example, we want to know whether our direction is correct or not > > (will it actually reduce the load?), or if there are some other concerns > > that we missed, that can potentially prevent this system from > > working as intended. We really want to do somewhat meaningful work > > that actually helps run Wikipedia! > > > > Please feel free to give as any suggestions, comments, etc. > > If you want to express your opinion privately, > > please contact ss...@cc.gatech.edu. > > > > Thanks, > > > > --- Appendix --- > > > > I added some detailed information about B2BWiki in the following. > > > > # Accessing data > > When accessing a page on B2BWiki, the browser will query peers first. > > 1) If there exist peers that hold the contents, peer to peer download > > happens. > > 2) otherwise, if there is no peer, client will download the content > > from the mirror server. > > 3) If mirror server does not have the content, it downloads from > > Wikipedia server (1 access per first download, and update). > > > > > > # Peer lookup > > To enable content lookup for peers, > > we manage a lookup server that holds a page_name-to-peer map. > > A client (a user's browser) can query the list of peers that > > currently hold the content, and select the peer by its freshness > > (has hash/timestamp of the content, > > has top 2 octet of IP address > > (figuring out whether it is local peer or not), etc. > > > > > > # Update, and integrity check > > Mirror server updates its content per each day > > (can be configured to update per each hour, etc). > > Update check is done by using If-Modified-Since header from Wikipedia > > server. > > On retrieving the content from Wikipedia, the mirror server stamps a > > timestamp > > and sha1 checksum, to ensure the freshness of data and its integrity. > > When clients lookup and download the content from the peers, > > client will compare the sha1 checksum of data > > with the checksum from lookup server. > > > > In this settings, users can get older data > > (they can configure how to tolerate the freshness of data, > > e.g. 1day older, 3day, 1 week older, etc.), and > > the integrity is guaranteed by mirror/lookup server. > > > > > > More detailed information can be obtained from the following website. > > > > http://goo.gl/pSNrjR > > (URL redirects to SSLab@gatech website) > > > > Please feel free to give as any suggestions, comments, etc. > > > > Thanks, > > -- > > Yeongjin Jang > > > >
Re: [Wikitech-l] Peer-to-peer sharing of the content of Wikipedia through WebRTC
On 11/28/15, Yeongjin Jang wrote: > > Hi, > > I am Yeongjin Jang, a Ph.D. Student at Georgia Tech. > > In our lab (SSLab, https://sslab.gtisc.gatech.edu/), > we are working on a project called B2BWiki, > which enables users to share the contents of Wikipedia through WebRTC > (peer-to-peer sharing). > > Website is at here: http://b2bwiki.cc.gatech.edu/ > > The project aims to help Wikipedia by donating computing resources > from the community; users can donate their traffic (by P2P communication) > and storage (indexedDB) to reduce the load of Wikipedia servers. > For larger organizations, e.g. schools or companies that > have many local users, they can donate a mirror server > similar to GNU FTP servers, which can bootstrap peer sharing. > > > Potential benefits that we think of are following. > 1) Users can easily donate their resources to the community. > Just visit the website. > > 2) Users can get performance benefit if a page is loaded from > multiple local peers / local mirror (page load time got faster!). > > 3) Wikipedia can reduce its server workload, network traffic, etc. > > 4) Local network operators can reduce network traffic transit > (e.g. cost that is caused by delivering the traffic to the outside). > > > While we are working on enhancing the implementation, > we would like to ask the opinions from actual developers of Wikipedia. > For example, we want to know whether our direction is correct or not > (will it actually reduce the load?), or if there are some other concerns > that we missed, that can potentially prevent this system from > working as intended. We really want to do somewhat meaningful work > that actually helps run Wikipedia! > > Please feel free to give as any suggestions, comments, etc. > If you want to express your opinion privately, > please contact ss...@cc.gatech.edu. > > Thanks, > > --- Appendix --- > > I added some detailed information about B2BWiki in the following. > > # Accessing data > When accessing a page on B2BWiki, the browser will query peers first. > 1) If there exist peers that hold the contents, peer to peer download > happens. > 2) otherwise, if there is no peer, client will download the content > from the mirror server. > 3) If mirror server does not have the content, it downloads from > Wikipedia server (1 access per first download, and update). > > > # Peer lookup > To enable content lookup for peers, > we manage a lookup server that holds a page_name-to-peer map. > A client (a user's browser) can query the list of peers that > currently hold the content, and select the peer by its freshness > (has hash/timestamp of the content, > has top 2 octet of IP address > (figuring out whether it is local peer or not), etc. > > > # Update, and integrity check > Mirror server updates its content per each day > (can be configured to update per each hour, etc). > Update check is done by using If-Modified-Since header from Wikipedia > server. > On retrieving the content from Wikipedia, the mirror server stamps a > timestamp > and sha1 checksum, to ensure the freshness of data and its integrity. > When clients lookup and download the content from the peers, > client will compare the sha1 checksum of data > with the checksum from lookup server. > > In this settings, users can get older data > (they can configure how to tolerate the freshness of data, > e.g. 1day older, 3day, 1 week older, etc.), and > the integrity is guaranteed by mirror/lookup server. > > > More detailed information can be obtained from the following website. > > http://goo.gl/pSNrjR > (URL redirects to SSLab@gatech website) > > Please feel free to give as any suggestions, comments, etc. > > Thanks, > -- > Yeongjin Jang > > > ___ > Wikitech-l mailing list > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l Hi, This is some interesting stuff, and I think research along these lines (That is, leveraging webrtc to deliver content in a P2P manner over web browsers) will really change the face of the internet in the years to come. As for Wikipedia specifically (This is all just my personal opinion. Others may disagree with me): *Wikipedia is a a fairly stable/mature site. I think we're past the point where its a good idea to experiment with experimental technologies (Although mirrors of Wikipedia are a good place to do that). We need stability and proven technology. *Bandwidth makes up a very small portion of WMF's expenses (I'm not sure how small. Someone once told me that donation processing costs takes up more money then raw bandwidth costs. Don't know if that's true, but bandwidth is certainly not the biggest expense). Your scheme primarily serves to offload bandwidth of cached content to other people. But serving cached content (by which I mean, anonymous users getting results from varnish) is probably the cheapest (in terms of computational resources) part of our setup. The hard part is things like parsing wiki
Re: [Wikitech-l] Peer-to-peer sharing of the content of Wikipedia through WebRTC
Thanks for this initiative. I think that concerns at the moment would be in the domains of privacy, security, lack of WMF analytics intstrumentation, and WMF fundraising limitations. That said, looking in the longer term, a number of us in the community are interested in decreasing our dependencies on the Wikimedia Foundation as insurance against possible catastrophes and as a backup plan in case of another significant WMF dispute with the community. It might be worth exploring the options for setting up Wikipedia on infrastructure outside of WMF. I would be interested in talking with you to discuss this further; please let me know if you have time for a Hangout session in early to mid December. Thank you for your interest! Pine On Nov 27, 2015 10:50 PM, "Yeongjin Jang" wrote: > > Hi, > > I am Yeongjin Jang, a Ph.D. Student at Georgia Tech. > > In our lab (SSLab, https://sslab.gtisc.gatech.edu/), > we are working on a project called B2BWiki, > which enables users to share the contents of Wikipedia through WebRTC > (peer-to-peer sharing). > > Website is at here: http://b2bwiki.cc.gatech.edu/ > > The project aims to help Wikipedia by donating computing resources > from the community; users can donate their traffic (by P2P communication) > and storage (indexedDB) to reduce the load of Wikipedia servers. > For larger organizations, e.g. schools or companies that > have many local users, they can donate a mirror server > similar to GNU FTP servers, which can bootstrap peer sharing. > > > Potential benefits that we think of are following. > 1) Users can easily donate their resources to the community. > Just visit the website. > > 2) Users can get performance benefit if a page is loaded from > multiple local peers / local mirror (page load time got faster!). > > 3) Wikipedia can reduce its server workload, network traffic, etc. > > 4) Local network operators can reduce network traffic transit > (e.g. cost that is caused by delivering the traffic to the outside). > > > While we are working on enhancing the implementation, > we would like to ask the opinions from actual developers of Wikipedia. > For example, we want to know whether our direction is correct or not > (will it actually reduce the load?), or if there are some other concerns > that we missed, that can potentially prevent this system from > working as intended. We really want to do somewhat meaningful work > that actually helps run Wikipedia! > > Please feel free to give as any suggestions, comments, etc. > If you want to express your opinion privately, > please contact ss...@cc.gatech.edu. > > Thanks, > > --- Appendix --- > > I added some detailed information about B2BWiki in the following. > > # Accessing data > When accessing a page on B2BWiki, the browser will query peers first. > 1) If there exist peers that hold the contents, peer to peer download > happens. > 2) otherwise, if there is no peer, client will download the content > from the mirror server. > 3) If mirror server does not have the content, it downloads from > Wikipedia server (1 access per first download, and update). > > > # Peer lookup > To enable content lookup for peers, > we manage a lookup server that holds a page_name-to-peer map. > A client (a user's browser) can query the list of peers that > currently hold the content, and select the peer by its freshness > (has hash/timestamp of the content, > has top 2 octet of IP address > (figuring out whether it is local peer or not), etc. > > > # Update, and integrity check > Mirror server updates its content per each day > (can be configured to update per each hour, etc). > Update check is done by using If-Modified-Since header from Wikipedia > server. > On retrieving the content from Wikipedia, the mirror server stamps a > timestamp > and sha1 checksum, to ensure the freshness of data and its integrity. > When clients lookup and download the content from the peers, > client will compare the sha1 checksum of data > with the checksum from lookup server. > > In this settings, users can get older data > (they can configure how to tolerate the freshness of data, > e.g. 1day older, 3day, 1 week older, etc.), and > the integrity is guaranteed by mirror/lookup server. > > > More detailed information can be obtained from the following website. > > http://goo.gl/pSNrjR > (URL redirects to SSLab@gatech website) > > Please feel free to give as any suggestions, comments, etc. > > Thanks, > -- > Yeongjin Jang > > > ___ > Wikitech-l mailing list > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
[Wikitech-l] Peer-to-peer sharing of the content of Wikipedia through WebRTC
Hi, I am Yeongjin Jang, a Ph.D. Student at Georgia Tech. In our lab (SSLab, https://sslab.gtisc.gatech.edu/), we are working on a project called B2BWiki, which enables users to share the contents of Wikipedia through WebRTC (peer-to-peer sharing). Website is at here: http://b2bwiki.cc.gatech.edu/ The project aims to help Wikipedia by donating computing resources from the community; users can donate their traffic (by P2P communication) and storage (indexedDB) to reduce the load of Wikipedia servers. For larger organizations, e.g. schools or companies that have many local users, they can donate a mirror server similar to GNU FTP servers, which can bootstrap peer sharing. Potential benefits that we think of are following. 1) Users can easily donate their resources to the community. Just visit the website. 2) Users can get performance benefit if a page is loaded from multiple local peers / local mirror (page load time got faster!). 3) Wikipedia can reduce its server workload, network traffic, etc. 4) Local network operators can reduce network traffic transit (e.g. cost that is caused by delivering the traffic to the outside). While we are working on enhancing the implementation, we would like to ask the opinions from actual developers of Wikipedia. For example, we want to know whether our direction is correct or not (will it actually reduce the load?), or if there are some other concerns that we missed, that can potentially prevent this system from working as intended. We really want to do somewhat meaningful work that actually helps run Wikipedia! Please feel free to give as any suggestions, comments, etc. If you want to express your opinion privately, please contact ss...@cc.gatech.edu. Thanks, --- Appendix --- I added some detailed information about B2BWiki in the following. # Accessing data When accessing a page on B2BWiki, the browser will query peers first. 1) If there exist peers that hold the contents, peer to peer download happens. 2) otherwise, if there is no peer, client will download the content from the mirror server. 3) If mirror server does not have the content, it downloads from Wikipedia server (1 access per first download, and update). # Peer lookup To enable content lookup for peers, we manage a lookup server that holds a page_name-to-peer map. A client (a user's browser) can query the list of peers that currently hold the content, and select the peer by its freshness (has hash/timestamp of the content, has top 2 octet of IP address (figuring out whether it is local peer or not), etc. # Update, and integrity check Mirror server updates its content per each day (can be configured to update per each hour, etc). Update check is done by using If-Modified-Since header from Wikipedia server. On retrieving the content from Wikipedia, the mirror server stamps a timestamp and sha1 checksum, to ensure the freshness of data and its integrity. When clients lookup and download the content from the peers, client will compare the sha1 checksum of data with the checksum from lookup server. In this settings, users can get older data (they can configure how to tolerate the freshness of data, e.g. 1day older, 3day, 1 week older, etc.), and the integrity is guaranteed by mirror/lookup server. More detailed information can be obtained from the following website. http://goo.gl/pSNrjR (URL redirects to SSLab@gatech website) Please feel free to give as any suggestions, comments, etc. Thanks, -- Yeongjin Jang ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
