Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Ricordisamoa]

Il 10/08/2014 15:27, Erik Moeller ha scritto:

In the long run, we will want to apply a code review process to these changes 
as with any other deployed code

The latest version of the Pywikibot framework could be useful to you.
We recently introduced custom protection levels, and I think you could 
help testing the new feature by superprotecting every common.js in the farm.
So you could spend your time thinking of other methods to 'empower' the 
community.


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Pine W]

Straniu, Jimbo's comments in his keynote about forking concerned
encouraging competent editors who can't work cooperatively with other
people to fork in a way that would be better for everyone in the long run.
I don't believe this disappointing  confrontation between the WMF and
volunteers were what Jimbo had in mind.

Pine
On Aug 12, 2014 1:44 AM, "Strainu"  wrote:

> Hi Gerard,
>
> Some answers (in a random order).
>
> 2014-08-11 12:20 GMT+03:00 Gerard Meijssen :
> > You know our projects, you know our licenses. If you, the "community"do
> not
> > like what you have, you can fork. At Wikimania forking and leaving the
> > community was very much discussed. Watch Jimbo's presentation for
> instance,
> > he may be aghast that I quote him here but in his state of the Wiki he
> made
> > it abundantly clear that it is your option to stay or go.
>
> I gave up watching Jimbo's keynotes a few years ago, as I would
> invariably get pissed off. So, should we understand that the vast
> ammounts of money and resources spent on editor retention are a waste
> of our money? I sincerely hope this is a heat-of-the-moment argument,
> just like the one about closing de.wp.
>
> > Hoi,
> > Code review should be a strictly technical process surely. However the
> > community CANNOT decide on everything.
>
> Agreed. How about letting the WMF decide for anonymous users and the
> community decide for logged-in users? Presumably, the logged-in users
> have access to a large panel of options and can make up their own mind
> if they disagree with the consensus. Of course, discussions should not
> disappear because of such a separation, but even become more active
> and hopefully less aggressive.
>
>
> > When you are in those conversations you realise that many
> > complications are considered; it is not easy nor obvious.
> > NB there is not one community, there are many with often completely
> > diverging opinions. Technically it is not possible to always keep
> backward
> > compatibility / functionality. We are not backward we need to stay
> > contemporary.
>
> As a software engineer in a publicly traded company, I understand the
> reasoning behind more than 90% of the decisions made by the
> Engineering staff - and this worries me terribly, because they *don't*
> work for a company. Their objectives and approaches should be
> different.
>
> There are three main wiki-use-cases that should receive similar levels
> of attention:
> * reading
> * basic editing
> * advanced editing
>
> The first two receive a lot of love, but the third one not so much,
> it's even hindered by initiatives designed for the first two. I'm not
> saying that we should keep backwards compatibility forever, but since
> the WMF wants to deploy stuff early in order to get feedback, it
> should begin by offering it as a beta (they do that now), then, when
> reaching a decent level of stability, deploy it for anonymous users
> and opt-in users and only when it reaches feature-parity with the
> feature being replaced should it be pushed for everybody (keeping an
> opt-out feature for some time - months or a couple of years).
>
> Take for instance the media viewer: the current version is useless for
> editors, as it has basically no controls visible by default (without
> scrolling). The future version, presented at Wikimania, has a lot more
> stuff visible on the first screen, making it much easier to use for
> editing. I believe that the media viewer should have been kept as
> opt-in for logged in users until this future version arrives.
>
> Strainu
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
When I watch Jimmy, it is a lot like Wikipedia. There is a lot I like but I
do not like everything. This time was no different. However LIKE Wikipedia
there is so much that I like that I will not abandon it.

The notion that the "community" is free to choose whatever negates the
technical point that certain innovations are intended to NOT be backwards
compatible. Choices are made all the time that are NOT backwards
compatible, often it does not affect user land really and then there is
supposed to be no problem. It is just a different public that "suffers" the
consequences. At Wikimania the Wikidatafication of Commons was mentioned
often and in many contexts. This needs to happen when we want to have multi
lingual search and other goodie goodies that is the point of it all. In my
understanding it is a game changer and it will change things more than what
is being discussed at the moment.

I can see the Media Viewer as a precursor of these changes.

NB several of the proposals re Wikidatafication are imho a bit daft.
However, the need for it is such that I prefer something that is half baked
to start off with than nothing at all.

We disagree on the amount of attention that is given.. In my appreciation
we do not invest in tools that affect readers that much and it only started
fairly recently. It is the editors and even more so the admins / power
users that have the most attention available to them. They often role their
own tools and consequently are not assured of continued support for their
tools. These more sophisticated users are often mistaken for the community.
It certainly is the most vocal subgroup of our eco-system but it is not
them we aim to serve.

I am not into second guessing what the WMF could or should do. I have
opinions and they typically are about how and where I think we could do
better. So my two pennies worth is that:

   - Reasonator like functionality is our future for much of the
   information we have.
   - Wikipedia can have its sources but Wikidata, certainly for now, cannot
   be relied on having sources. Confidence is to be had by comparing the
   information it holds with other sources (including individual Wikipedias)
   - When our data is not used, we might be better off not having it.

Thanks,
 GerardM





On 12 August 2014 10:43, Strainu  wrote:

> Hi Gerard,
>
> Some answers (in a random order).
>
> 2014-08-11 12:20 GMT+03:00 Gerard Meijssen :
> > You know our projects, you know our licenses. If you, the "community"do
> not
> > like what you have, you can fork. At Wikimania forking and leaving the
> > community was very much discussed. Watch Jimbo's presentation for
> instance,
> > he may be aghast that I quote him here but in his state of the Wiki he
> made
> > it abundantly clear that it is your option to stay or go.
>
> I gave up watching Jimbo's keynotes a few years ago, as I would
> invariably get pissed off. So, should we understand that the vast
> ammounts of money and resources spent on editor retention are a waste
> of our money? I sincerely hope this is a heat-of-the-moment argument,
> just like the one about closing de.wp.
>
> > Hoi,
> > Code review should be a strictly technical process surely. However the
> > community CANNOT decide on everything.
>
> Agreed. How about letting the WMF decide for anonymous users and the
> community decide for logged-in users? Presumably, the logged-in users
> have access to a large panel of options and can make up their own mind
> if they disagree with the consensus. Of course, discussions should not
> disappear because of such a separation, but even become more active
> and hopefully less aggressive.
>
>
> > When you are in those conversations you realise that many
> > complications are considered; it is not easy nor obvious.
> > NB there is not one community, there are many with often completely
> > diverging opinions. Technically it is not possible to always keep
> backward
> > compatibility / functionality. We are not backward we need to stay
> > contemporary.
>
> As a software engineer in a publicly traded company, I understand the
> reasoning behind more than 90% of the decisions made by the
> Engineering staff - and this worries me terribly, because they *don't*
> work for a company. Their objectives and approaches should be
> different.
>
> There are three main wiki-use-cases that should receive similar levels
> of attention:
> * reading
> * basic editing
> * advanced editing
>
> The first two receive a lot of love, but the third one not so much,
> it's even hindered by initiatives designed for the first two. I'm not
> saying that we should keep backwards compatibility forever, but since
> the WMF wants to deploy stuff early in order to get feedback, it
> should begin by offering it as a beta (they do that now), then, when
> reaching a decent level of stability, deploy it for anonymous users
> and opt-in users and only when it reaches feature-parity with the
> feature being replaced should it be pushed for 

Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Strainu]

Hi Gerard,

Some answers (in a random order).

2014-08-11 12:20 GMT+03:00 Gerard Meijssen :
> You know our projects, you know our licenses. If you, the "community"do not
> like what you have, you can fork. At Wikimania forking and leaving the
> community was very much discussed. Watch Jimbo's presentation for instance,
> he may be aghast that I quote him here but in his state of the Wiki he made
> it abundantly clear that it is your option to stay or go.

I gave up watching Jimbo's keynotes a few years ago, as I would
invariably get pissed off. So, should we understand that the vast
ammounts of money and resources spent on editor retention are a waste
of our money? I sincerely hope this is a heat-of-the-moment argument,
just like the one about closing de.wp.

> Hoi,
> Code review should be a strictly technical process surely. However the
> community CANNOT decide on everything.

Agreed. How about letting the WMF decide for anonymous users and the
community decide for logged-in users? Presumably, the logged-in users
have access to a large panel of options and can make up their own mind
if they disagree with the consensus. Of course, discussions should not
disappear because of such a separation, but even become more active
and hopefully less aggressive.


> When you are in those conversations you realise that many
> complications are considered; it is not easy nor obvious.
> NB there is not one community, there are many with often completely
> diverging opinions. Technically it is not possible to always keep backward
> compatibility / functionality. We are not backward we need to stay
> contemporary.

As a software engineer in a publicly traded company, I understand the
reasoning behind more than 90% of the decisions made by the
Engineering staff - and this worries me terribly, because they *don't*
work for a company. Their objectives and approaches should be
different.

There are three main wiki-use-cases that should receive similar levels
of attention:
* reading
* basic editing
* advanced editing

The first two receive a lot of love, but the third one not so much,
it's even hindered by initiatives designed for the first two. I'm not
saying that we should keep backwards compatibility forever, but since
the WMF wants to deploy stuff early in order to get feedback, it
should begin by offering it as a beta (they do that now), then, when
reaching a decent level of stability, deploy it for anonymous users
and opt-in users and only when it reaches feature-parity with the
feature being replaced should it be pushed for everybody (keeping an
opt-out feature for some time - months or a couple of years).

Take for instance the media viewer: the current version is useless for
editors, as it has basically no controls visible by default (without
scrolling). The future version, presented at Wikimania, has a lot more
stuff visible on the first screen, making it much easier to use for
editing. I believe that the media viewer should have been kept as
opt-in for logged in users until this future version arrives.

Strainu

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[svetlana]

Il 11/08/2014 12:27, James Forrester ha scritto:
> On 11 August 2014 10:56, Ricordisamoa  wrote:
>
>> Why aren't they implementing a global repository for gadgets, modules,
>> templates which is (IMHO) what the community needs first?
>
> We are.
>
> ​SUL finalisation (which is broadly a blocker to much of this work) is
> currently underway and should help make a lot of cross-cluster desired
> tools a great deal easier to build. This isn't the only piece of work, but
> it's been enough to discourage work on these areas for many years.
>
> At Wikimania, a number of staff and volunteer developers re-started work on
> a global repository for gadgets. I was part of initial discussions around a
> global repository for source references with structured data stored on
> Wikibase somehow, and similar considerations for Wikiquote and Wikisource.

Where can I see any of that?

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Brian Wolff]

Sorry wrong url, i meant https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/153345/ not the
url i wrote.

Anyways, if the original email was complaining about the config change and
not the delete/edit rights change then its much more reasonable. i thus
take back my previous email.

--bawolff
On Aug 11, 2014 3:45 PM, "Brian Wolff"  wrote:
>
>
> On Aug 11, 2014 2:34 PM, "James HK"  wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > > [Putting purely the mw dev hat on]
> >
> > I'm putting a hat on from pure observer point of view as neither a
> > member of de.wp nor wmf.
>
> Note: that i consider my mw dev hat to not involve wmf.
>
> >
> > > So dont complain that mw fixes a bug in how page protection. If you
are
> >
> > I'm not complaining, I'm observing the events that happened around the
> > introduction of  and the swift action which did not
> > involve any consultation or discussion (or rather a single statement
> > from Erik Moeller where he cites security and code review as the
> > inherent cause for the introduction).
> >
> > > It was a bug in mediawiki, and thus it should be fixed. MediaWiki is
used
> >
> > {{cc}} (which bug, when was created and by whom)
>
> I'm referring to https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/153349/ . I thought
that was what the parent message was referring to.
>
> A bug is defined as a the software not working the way it is "expected"
to. Not all bugs are tracked in bugzilla, even if most are.
>
> >
> > > by many different groups and in general we [mw devs] do not judge
people
> > > for how they use the software. If some non wmf entity reported the
bug, it
> > > would still be fixed.
> >
> > Interesting view, that means bugs that are to solve a political
> > dispute are preferred over bugs that existed for years?
> >
> > Cheers
>
> Politics isnt really a criteria generally. Bugs are fixed based on many
metrics including severity, demands of users, ease of fixing, if there is
someone interested in fixing it, etc. In this case it is very easy to fix,
and there is an entity contributing to mw who is extremely interested in it
being fixed. So it got fixed.  But it would still probably have been fixed
if somebody else complained.
>
> --bawolff
>
> >
> > On 8/12/14, Brian Wolff  wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Now, having observed that not only user Eloquence (aka Erik Moeller)
> > >> himself engaged in the enforcement of   right on de.wp
> > >> [1] but soon after a workaround was published a change was deployed
> > >> [2, 3] as counter measurement to block any possible interference can
> > >> no longer be interpret as acting in good faith but rather strikes me
> > >> as a form of oppression (or worst as censorship).
> > >>
> > >
> > > [Putting the purely mw dev hat on]
> > >
> > > It was a bug in mediawiki, and thus it should be fixed. MediaWiki is
used
> > > by many different groups and in general we [mw devs] do not judge
people
> > > for how they use the software. If some non wmf entity reported the
bug, it
> > > would still be fixed.
> > >
> > > So dont complain that mw fixes a bug in how page protection. If you
are
> > > unhappy with current events you should direct your anger at how the
wmf
> > > decided to use hard security to enforce its dictates, not at the
software
> > > for "working".
> > >
> > > --bawolff
> > > ___
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> > ___
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Brian Wolff]

On Aug 11, 2014 2:34 PM, "James HK"  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> > [Putting purely the mw dev hat on]
>
> I'm putting a hat on from pure observer point of view as neither a
> member of de.wp nor wmf.

Note: that i consider my mw dev hat to not involve wmf.

>
> > So dont complain that mw fixes a bug in how page protection. If you are
>
> I'm not complaining, I'm observing the events that happened around the
> introduction of  and the swift action which did not
> involve any consultation or discussion (or rather a single statement
> from Erik Moeller where he cites security and code review as the
> inherent cause for the introduction).
>
> > It was a bug in mediawiki, and thus it should be fixed. MediaWiki is
used
>
> {{cc}} (which bug, when was created and by whom)

I'm referring to https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/153349/ . I thought
that was what the parent message was referring to.

A bug is defined as a the software not working the way it is "expected" to.
Not all bugs are tracked in bugzilla, even if most are.

>
> > by many different groups and in general we [mw devs] do not judge people
> > for how they use the software. If some non wmf entity reported the bug,
it
> > would still be fixed.
>
> Interesting view, that means bugs that are to solve a political
> dispute are preferred over bugs that existed for years?
>
> Cheers

Politics isnt really a criteria generally. Bugs are fixed based on many
metrics including severity, demands of users, ease of fixing, if there is
someone interested in fixing it, etc. In this case it is very easy to fix,
and there is an entity contributing to mw who is extremely interested in it
being fixed. So it got fixed.  But it would still probably have been fixed
if somebody else complained.

--bawolff

>
> On 8/12/14, Brian Wolff  wrote:
> >>
> >> Now, having observed that not only user Eloquence (aka Erik Moeller)
> >> himself engaged in the enforcement of   right on de.wp
> >> [1] but soon after a workaround was published a change was deployed
> >> [2, 3] as counter measurement to block any possible interference can
> >> no longer be interpret as acting in good faith but rather strikes me
> >> as a form of oppression (or worst as censorship).
> >>
> >
> > [Putting the purely mw dev hat on]
> >
> > It was a bug in mediawiki, and thus it should be fixed. MediaWiki is
used
> > by many different groups and in general we [mw devs] do not judge people
> > for how they use the software. If some non wmf entity reported the bug,
it
> > would still be fixed.
> >
> > So dont complain that mw fixes a bug in how page protection. If you are
> > unhappy with current events you should direct your anger at how the wmf
> > decided to use hard security to enforce its dictates, not at the
software
> > for "working".
> >
> > --bawolff
> > ___
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> ___
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Isarra Yos]

On 11/08/14 16:54, Tyler Romeo wrote:

There are many legitimate cases (e.g., office actions and copyright-related
issues) where I could see the superprotect level coming in handy. There are
some cases where the WMF simply cannot afford (usually b/c of legal
reasons) to trust the community, even if they're 99.9% sure nothing will
happen. Sometimes all it takes is one rogue admin to trigger a lawsuit.

With that said, it's obviously a political matter as to what the proper
uses of this new protection level are, but I do think the existence of the
level itself is appropriate.


But copyright- and performance-related issues don't need 
superprotection. As administrators, we need to understand the importance 
of these things (or just avoid them). Should we try to go against such, 
that would be a more appropriate time for a blocking and/or deopping, 
not page protection.


Similarly, if the WMF cannot afford to trust the community, that's not a 
technical problem. That's a problem with a lack of understanding of what 
it means to run a wiki (nevermind several hundred), because if it can be 
edited, 'something' can and will happen. Lawsuits do happen. Perfomance 
hits due to bad gadgets etc do happen. They are resolved as they come up.


I just don't see how such a right could ever be useful in the hands of 
staff, especially in light of the trouble it causes.


That being said, it's not that superprotection couldn't be useful 
elsewhere, indeed. Consider stewards - say there is a dispute between a 
bunch of admins and it needs sorting out, so protecting the page to 
prevent further damage while doing the actual sorting could simplify 
things a bit. Even then, though, it's hardly necessary, since you can 
also just chuck the specific folks out the window as they show up, but 
options can be nice, perhaps.


-I

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Tyler Romeo]

No, it is not. Unless we are continuing to discuss the technical implications 
of this change, I suggest this be moved to wikimedia-l.

Also, can we please stop using Wikipedia templates in this thread (e.g., 
{{cc}}). Not everybody here is a Wikipedia editor and knows what they mean. I’d 
prefer not to have to look up templates online just to figure it out.
-- 
Tyler Romeo
0x405D34A7C86B42DF

From: Lewis Cawte 
Reply: Wikimedia developers >
Date: August 11, 2014 at 13:56:11
To: Wikimedia developers >
Subject:  Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you  

Is wikitech-l really the best place for this discussion?

-- Lewis Cawte (Lcawte)

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[pi zero]

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Lewis Cawte 
wrote:

> Is wikitech-l really the best place for this discussion?
>
> -- Lewis Cawte (Lcawte)
>

Perhaps not.  I'd actually replied to the message, and didn't even notice
which list it was on.

Pi zero
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[John Mark Vandenberg]

On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 12:18 AM, Brian Wolff  wrote:
>>
>> Now, having observed that not only user Eloquence (aka Erik Moeller)
>> himself engaged in the enforcement of   right on de.wp
>> [1] but soon after a workaround was published a change was deployed
>> [2, 3] as counter measurement to block any possible interference can
>> no longer be interpret as acting in good faith but rather strikes me
>> as a form of oppression (or worst as censorship).
>>
>
> [Putting the purely mw dev hat on]
>
> It was a bug in mediawiki, and thus it should be fixed. MediaWiki is used
> by many different groups and in general we [mw devs] do not judge people
> for how they use the software. If some non wmf entity reported the bug, it
> would still be fixed.
>
> So dont complain that mw fixes a bug in how page protection. If you are
> unhappy with current events you should direct your anger at how the wmf
> decided to use hard security to enforce its dictates, not at the software
> for "working".

Sorry Brian, which bug are you referring to?  Could you point me to a
bug report?

Before this, there was no expectation that a page could be protected
such that sysops could not alter the content of the superprotected
page.

Now, the devs/ops have attempted to introduce that capability, and the
new functionality is very likely riddled with holes, some of which
MZMcBride has suggested in the thread 'Options for the German
Wikipedia'.

Moreover the deployed technical change is useless due to design flaws.
What was the goal of this change?  Was it to prevent sysops injecting
JavaScript that logged out user-agents execute?  If that is the
use-case, this patch is a very weak solution from an engineering
perspective.  It was rushed it into a production environment, and
needed a follow up patch almost immediately.  And the bug reports for
this new functionality will surely roll in.

These patches only make it 'forbidden' to deactivate the MediaViewer.
They don't prevent it.  These patches only introduce a new policy,
signalling a new era, and make it technically more challenging to
bypass that new policy.  The policy written says "Sysops are not
allowed to inject JavaScript into the reader's user-agent which
interferes with WMF's favoured features."  It is still possible, but
the only thing that is stopping de.wp sysops from deactivating the
MediaViewer some other way is that the WMF has demonstrated it will
make drastic changes to the MediaWiki configuration to take away
capabilities from their community.  Should the community work-around
this change, they are fairly confident that the WMF will desysop
whoeverdoes it, or more configuration changes and superprotection will
occur.

--
John Vandenberg

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Lewis Cawte]

Is wikitech-l really the best place for this discussion?

-- Lewis Cawte (Lcawte)


On 11 August 2014 18:44, pi zero  wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Ricordisamoa <
> ricordisa...@openmailbox.org>
> wrote:
>
> > I'd really like to hear Jimbo's opinion on the
> matter
>
>
> A few years ago, Jimbo came by en.wn, and we were trying to explain to him
> how our project infrastructure works.  Understand, a central part of our
> concept at en.wn is that the community chooses reviewers in whom we place
> an enormous amount of trust.  Of course I can't know what the exchange
> looked like from Jimbo's side, but from where I was sitting, it appeared
> that as we were explaining to him how this works, at first he was
> incredulous we were actually putting that much trust in the hands of users
> merely selected by the community, and then, when he did realize what we
> were entrusting to reviewers, he reckoned we had to be insane.  As I say, I
> don't know what it looked like from his perspective; but it sure did look
> like that from mine.
>
> This attitude, of not trusting the community to select people worthy of
> trust, seems to be a sort of conceptual trap, that's easy to fall into,
> probably without even noticing, and hard to get out of.  One suspects it's
> got a bunch of folks at the Foundation in its grip.  It makes a striking
> contrast with "assume good faith" --- mind you, I don't subscribe to AGF,
> in fact at en.wn we have instead "Never assume"; but one of the subtler
> reasons I disapprove of AGF is that I think it actually transmutes, in
> practice, into "trust no-one".
>
> Pi zero
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[pi zero]

On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Ricordisamoa 
wrote:

> I'd really like to hear Jimbo's opinion on the matter


A few years ago, Jimbo came by en.wn, and we were trying to explain to him
how our project infrastructure works.  Understand, a central part of our
concept at en.wn is that the community chooses reviewers in whom we place
an enormous amount of trust.  Of course I can't know what the exchange
looked like from Jimbo's side, but from where I was sitting, it appeared
that as we were explaining to him how this works, at first he was
incredulous we were actually putting that much trust in the hands of users
merely selected by the community, and then, when he did realize what we
were entrusting to reviewers, he reckoned we had to be insane.  As I say, I
don't know what it looked like from his perspective; but it sure did look
like that from mine.

This attitude, of not trusting the community to select people worthy of
trust, seems to be a sort of conceptual trap, that's easy to fall into,
probably without even noticing, and hard to get out of.  One suspects it's
got a bunch of folks at the Foundation in its grip.  It makes a striking
contrast with "assume good faith" --- mind you, I don't subscribe to AGF,
in fact at en.wn we have instead "Never assume"; but one of the subtler
reasons I disapprove of AGF is that I think it actually transmutes, in
practice, into "trust no-one".

Pi zero
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Lojjik L. Braughler]

Looks like the only change here was to the Wikimedia config, not the
MediaWiki software defaults (and thus be subject to a normal release
schedule). Instead, this seems to have been done quickly just for the
purpose of enforcing something against the wishes of the community.


On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 10:18 AM, Brian Wolff  wrote:

> >
> > Now, having observed that not only user Eloquence (aka Erik Moeller)
> > himself engaged in the enforcement of   right on de.wp
> > [1] but soon after a workaround was published a change was deployed
> > [2, 3] as counter measurement to block any possible interference can
> > no longer be interpret as acting in good faith but rather strikes me
> > as a form of oppression (or worst as censorship).
> >
>
> [Putting the purely mw dev hat on]
>
> It was a bug in mediawiki, and thus it should be fixed. MediaWiki is used
> by many different groups and in general we [mw devs] do not judge people
> for how they use the software. If some non wmf entity reported the bug, it
> would still be fixed.
>
> So dont complain that mw fixes a bug in how page protection. If you are
> unhappy with current events you should direct your anger at how the wmf
> decided to use hard security to enforce its dictates, not at the software
> for "working".
>
> --bawolff
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-- 
Lojjik L. Braughler
B.S., Computer Science/Applied
Indiana University of Pennsylvania, 2017
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[James HK]

Hi,

> [Putting purely the mw dev hat on]

I'm putting a hat on from pure observer point of view as neither a
member of de.wp nor wmf.

> So dont complain that mw fixes a bug in how page protection. If you are

I'm not complaining, I'm observing the events that happened around the
introduction of  and the swift action which did not
involve any consultation or discussion (or rather a single statement
from Erik Moeller where he cites security and code review as the
inherent cause for the introduction).

> It was a bug in mediawiki, and thus it should be fixed. MediaWiki is used

{{cc}} (which bug, when was created and by whom)

> by many different groups and in general we [mw devs] do not judge people
> for how they use the software. If some non wmf entity reported the bug, it
> would still be fixed.

Interesting view, that means bugs that are to solve a political
dispute are preferred over bugs that existed for years?

Cheers

On 8/12/14, Brian Wolff  wrote:
>>
>> Now, having observed that not only user Eloquence (aka Erik Moeller)
>> himself engaged in the enforcement of   right on de.wp
>> [1] but soon after a workaround was published a change was deployed
>> [2, 3] as counter measurement to block any possible interference can
>> no longer be interpret as acting in good faith but rather strikes me
>> as a form of oppression (or worst as censorship).
>>
>
> [Putting the purely mw dev hat on]
>
> It was a bug in mediawiki, and thus it should be fixed. MediaWiki is used
> by many different groups and in general we [mw devs] do not judge people
> for how they use the software. If some non wmf entity reported the bug, it
> would still be fixed.
>
> So dont complain that mw fixes a bug in how page protection. If you are
> unhappy with current events you should direct your anger at how the wmf
> decided to use hard security to enforce its dictates, not at the software
> for "working".
>
> --bawolff
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Tim Landscheidt]

Brian Wolff  wrote:

>> > Almost every WMF developer attended Wikimania this year, and there was
>> > quite a lot of fruitful discussion and feedback given.  Somewhat
>> > surprisingly (to me, it was my first Wikimania) the tone in person was
>> > quite different than what you might expect from email list traffic.
> Perhaps
>> > that was self-selection, as the attendees at Wikimedia were the members
> of
>> > the community interested in constructively working on solutions.

>> > [...]

>> {{cn}}

> I dont know which part you want cited... but i can also confirm that
> ancedotally people at wikimania were much more positive about certain
> feature developments than the general attitude online.

The last subordinate clause.  I highly doubt that all "mem-
bers of the community interested in constructively working
on solutions" were at Wikimania, leaving none elsewhere, and
that all Wikimania attendees are "interested in construc-
tively working on solutions" given that at least some were
there at their employer's direction.

>What to make of this
> (whether its selection bias, or if  online attitudes reflect just a vocal
> minority, or if people in real life are just more shy and dont want to get
> in a real world fight so they tell us what we think we want to hear, or if
> something else is the case. I dont know. All i know is it was surprising)

> [...]

As I wrote in
http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.technical/75394:

| [...]

| +1.  In a physical meeting, there is higher bandwith, but a
| lot of the payload can be pity, intimidation, "nobody leaves
| before we have an agreement", etc.

Additionally, at a venue like Wikimania, most of the atten-
dees are not there to "work", but take it as some form of
"vacation", so there isn't much incentive to take a stand
about something like Media Viewer, especially as in the end
it is not up for discussion anyhow, so why bother?

Tim


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Brian Wolff]

>
> Now, having observed that not only user Eloquence (aka Erik Moeller)
> himself engaged in the enforcement of   right on de.wp
> [1] but soon after a workaround was published a change was deployed
> [2, 3] as counter measurement to block any possible interference can
> no longer be interpret as acting in good faith but rather strikes me
> as a form of oppression (or worst as censorship).
>

[Putting the purely mw dev hat on]

It was a bug in mediawiki, and thus it should be fixed. MediaWiki is used
by many different groups and in general we [mw devs] do not judge people
for how they use the software. If some non wmf entity reported the bug, it
would still be fixed.

So dont complain that mw fixes a bug in how page protection. If you are
unhappy with current events you should direct your anger at how the wmf
decided to use hard security to enforce its dictates, not at the software
for "working".

--bawolff
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Brian Wolff]

On Aug 11, 2014 7:58 AM, "svetlana"  wrote:
>
> On Mon, 11 Aug 2014, at 19:56, Ricordisamoa wrote:
> > Why aren't they implementing a global repository for gadgets, modules,
> > templates which is (IMHO) what the community needs first?
>
> THANK YOU! you are, alone, worth a whole engineering team
>
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With all due respect, fixing things is worth while. Complaining about
things is easy.

Whatever you think about wmf priorities, engineering teams do actually fix
things. So do many volunteers. Everyone is welcome to submit patches, and
high quality patches from volunteers are accepted every day.

[This of course does not excuse wmf from doing controversial actions, just
a please put your money where your mouth is comment if you want to call wmf
engineers (who often arent even the ones making these desecions) useless]

--bawolff
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Brian Wolff]

On Aug 11, 2014 1:24 PM, "Tim Landscheidt"  wrote:
>
> "C. Scott Ananian"  wrote:
>
> > Almost every WMF developer attended Wikimania this year, and there was
> > quite a lot of fruitful discussion and feedback given.  Somewhat
> > surprisingly (to me, it was my first Wikimania) the tone in person was
> > quite different than what you might expect from email list traffic.
Perhaps
> > that was self-selection, as the attendees at Wikimedia were the members
of
> > the community interested in constructively working on solutions.
>
> > [...]
>
> {{cn}}
>
> Tim
>
>
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I dont know which part you want cited... but i can also confirm that
ancedotally people at wikimania were much more positive about certain
feature developments than the general attitude online. What to make of this
(whether its selection bias, or if  online attitudes reflect just a vocal
minority, or if people in real life are just more shy and dont want to get
in a real world fight so they tell us what we think we want to hear, or if
something else is the case. I dont know. All i know is it was surprising)

Otoh i encountered a number of people not thrilled over super protection
(although still not as many as i would expect, all things considered)

--bawolff
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Vito]

Someone could also say the "coup d'état" has been done when too many people 
was traveling.


Anyway there are simply different views between many tech guys 
entusiasticly trying to push out new features and many people from the 
daily "community side" emphasizing need for partecipation and gradualness.
None of the two views is absolutely wrong nor absolutly right. There's a 
periennial dialectic between them which can by broken by those muscular 
initiatives.


Vito

Inviato con AquaMail per Android
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Il 11 agosto 2014 12:59:52 "C. Scott Ananian"  ha 
scritto:



Almost every WMF developer attended Wikimania this year, and there was
quite a lot of fruitful discussion and feedback given.  Somewhat
surprisingly (to me, it was my first Wikimania) the tone in person was
quite different than what you might expect from email list traffic. Perhaps
that was self-selection, as the attendees at Wikimedia were the members of
the community interested in constructively working on solutions.

But it's also worth noting that just about every Wikimania attendee is
either traveling or on vacation today. The conversation on this thread
might be a little lopsided as a result.
  --scott
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Jeremy Baron]

On Aug 11, 2014 12:51 PM, "Tyler Romeo"  wrote:
> More like the attendees were those who could afford to go and/or were
given
> scholarship.

Some people could afford to go if it were closer or can't take that much
time off but if it happens to be nearby then they can come for a part at
least.

So, we can't be close to everyone every year but we move around to
different places each year and fill in the gaps with national conferences.
(e.g. India, Netherlands and now USA too)

-Jeremy
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Tyler Romeo]

So I'd just like to make one point, I think this "superprotect" right has
proper technical implications and use cases. In other words, while you guys
may disagree with how it is currently being used (e.g., the MediaViewer
drama and whatnot), I think it is a good idea, and I am actually surprised
such a protection level has not already been enacted.

There are many legitimate cases (e.g., office actions and copyright-related
issues) where I could see the superprotect level coming in handy. There are
some cases where the WMF simply cannot afford (usually b/c of legal
reasons) to trust the community, even if they're 99.9% sure nothing will
happen. Sometimes all it takes is one rogue admin to trigger a lawsuit.

With that said, it's obviously a political matter as to what the proper
uses of this new protection level are, but I do think the existence of the
level itself is appropriate.

*-- *
*Tyler Romeo*
Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016
Major in Computer Science


On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 9:19 AM, K. Peachey  wrote:

> Lets all welcome the new overlord Erik.
>
> Add a new protection level called "superprotect"
> Assigned to nobody by default. Requested by Erik Möller for the purposes
> of protecting pages such that sysop permissions are not sufficient to
>
>
> edit them.
> Change-Id: Idfa211257dbacc7623d42393257de1525ff01e9e
> <
> https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#q,Idfa211257dbacc7623d42393257de1525ff01e9e,n,z
> >
>
> https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/153302/
>
>
>
> Someone clearly can't take criticism of their projects well.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Tyler Romeo]

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 12:24 PM, Tim Landscheidt 
wrote:

> {{cn}}


More like the attendees were those who could afford to go and/or were given
scholarship.

*-- *
*Tyler Romeo*
Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016
Major in Computer Science
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Tim Landscheidt]

"C. Scott Ananian"  wrote:

> Almost every WMF developer attended Wikimania this year, and there was
> quite a lot of fruitful discussion and feedback given.  Somewhat
> surprisingly (to me, it was my first Wikimania) the tone in person was
> quite different than what you might expect from email list traffic. Perhaps
> that was self-selection, as the attendees at Wikimedia were the members of
> the community interested in constructively working on solutions.

> [...]

{{cn}}

Tim


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Ricordisamoa]

Il 11/08/2014 12:27, James Forrester ha scritto:

On 11 August 2014 10:56, Ricordisamoa  wrote:


Why aren't they implementing a global repository for gadgets, modules,
templates which is (IMHO) what the community needs first?


We are.

​SUL finalisation (which is broadly a blocker to much of this work) is
currently underway and should help make a lot of cross-cluster desired
tools a great deal easier to build. This isn't the only piece of work, but
it's been enough to discourage work on these areas for many years.

At Wikimania, a number of staff and volunteer developers re-started work on
a global repository for gadgets. I was part of initial discussions around a
global repository for source references with structured data stored on
Wikibase somehow, and similar considerations for Wikiquote and Wikisource.

I'm sure lots of helpful follow-up e-mails, suggestions, RfCs and the like
will be written in the next few weeks as people get back from the
conference and have the time to communicate their work.

​So… "we" are.​ But why aren't you, too? Development is and has always been
a group effort. Patches welcome!

​J.​

Good to see your efforts!
Some time ago I proposed Global-Wiki 
, which has 28 interested 
people so far. And I make it a point to make my scripts and modules as 
localization-friendly as possible.
But I would not support, e.g., forcing users to create a 'global' user 
page or intimidating sysops who keep their gadgets locally.


Good changes get always supported by the community, sooner or later. 
Sometimes you will have to speed them up, but you can't enforce them.

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[C. Scott Ananian]

Almost every WMF developer attended Wikimania this year, and there was
quite a lot of fruitful discussion and feedback given.  Somewhat
surprisingly (to me, it was my first Wikimania) the tone in person was
quite different than what you might expect from email list traffic. Perhaps
that was self-selection, as the attendees at Wikimedia were the members of
the community interested in constructively working on solutions.

But it's also worth noting that just about every Wikimania attendee is
either traveling or on vacation today. The conversation on this thread
might be a little lopsided as a result.
  --scott
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[svetlana]

On Mon, 11 Aug 2014, at 19:56, Ricordisamoa wrote:
> Why aren't they implementing a global repository for gadgets, modules, 
> templates which is (IMHO) what the community needs first?

THANK YOU! you are, alone, worth a whole engineering team

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Florian Schmidt]

Just a way more to contact flow (and others too) development (in addition to 
what Dan Garry wrote, which i can totally underline) is to go into IRC 
channel(s) [1]. Many developers are online in IRC, so you can ask, talk and 
discuss with them. Just as a note.

[1] 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC/Channels#General_development_and_technical_discussion
 

Freundliche Grüße / Kind regards
Florian

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: wikitech-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org 
[mailto:wikitech-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Dan Garry
Gesendet: Montag, 11. August 2014 12:39
An: Wikimedia developers
Betreff: Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On 11 August 2014 11:08, Martijn Hoekstra  wrote:
>
> I think this is where part of the problem lies. Will discussion on 
> whether or not to deploy it to a local wiki still be possible when the 
> WMF decides it is ready for wider deployment, with a possible no for an 
> answer?
>

I'm not in the senior management, so I don't have an answer to that question.

What I can tell you, as a person who is in charge of the day-to-day decisions 
about what goes into the software the WMF produces, is that the best time to 
make sure the software meets your needs is not at the step where it's being 
deployed, but as the step where it's being developed!

So, to make Flow meet your needs, get involved! Test the latest version of Flow 
(https://ee-flow.wmflabs.org). File bugs ( https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org). 
Take a look at the Flow team's Trello board 
(https://trello.com/b/lOh4XCy7/flow-sprint-f). Send the product manager of Flow 
an email (dh...@wikimedia.org). Maybe even ask to have a hangout with him to 
discuss your concerns. Speaking from experience, this kind of feedback is one 
of the highest priority things a product manager can do. And this kind of 
contact shapes decisions, and shapes priorities.

This is the best way to be involved: early, and often.

Dan

--
Dan Garry
Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Dan Garry]

On 11 August 2014 11:08, Martijn Hoekstra  wrote:
>
> I think this is where part of the problem lies. Will discussion on whether
> or not to deploy it to a local wiki still be possible when the WMF decides
> it is ready for wider deployment, with a possible no for an answer?
>

I'm not in the senior management, so I don't have an answer to that
question.

What I can tell you, as a person who is in charge of the day-to-day
decisions about what goes into the software the WMF produces, is that the
best time to make sure the software meets your needs is not at the step
where it's being deployed, but as the step where it's being developed!

So, to make Flow meet your needs, get involved! Test the latest version of
Flow (https://ee-flow.wmflabs.org). File bugs (
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org). Take a look at the Flow team's Trello
board (https://trello.com/b/lOh4XCy7/flow-sprint-f). Send the product
manager of Flow an email (dh...@wikimedia.org). Maybe even ask to have a
hangout with him to discuss your concerns. Speaking from experience, this
kind of feedback is one of the highest priority things a product manager
can do. And this kind of contact shapes decisions, and shapes priorities.

This is the best way to be involved: early, and often.

Dan

-- 
Dan Garry
Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[James Forrester]

On 11 August 2014 10:56, Ricordisamoa  wrote:

> Why aren't they implementing a global repository for gadgets, modules,
> templates which is (IMHO) what the community needs first?


We are.

​SUL finalisation (which is broadly a blocker to much of this work) is
currently underway and should help make a lot of cross-cluster desired
tools a great deal easier to build. This isn't the only piece of work, but
it's been enough to discourage work on these areas for many years.

At Wikimania, a number of staff and volunteer developers re-started work on
a global repository for gadgets. I was part of initial discussions around a
global repository for source references with structured data stored on
Wikibase somehow, and similar considerations for Wikiquote and Wikisource.

I'm sure lots of helpful follow-up e-mails, suggestions, RfCs and the like
will be written in the next few weeks as people get back from the
conference and have the time to communicate their work.

​So… "we" are.​ But why aren't you, too? Development is and has always been
a group effort. Patches welcome!

​J.​
-- 
James D. Forrester
Product Manager, Editing
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.

jforres...@wikimedia.org | @jdforrester
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Vito]

Then there's something wrong somewhere since what is eventually perceived 
by active "remote" community is just a wall of semi-clueless decisionism.


Vito

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Il 11 agosto 2014 11:45:56 Gerard Meijssen  ha 
scritto:



Hoi,
This is simply not true. At Wikimania there were several sessions where the
topic was what will the technical underpinnings be of our software. It was
also discussed to some extend what kind of effect things may have on a
community. When you are in those conversations you realise that many
complications are considered; it is not easy nor obvious.
Thanks,
GerardM

NB there is not one community, there are many with often completely
diverging opinions. Technically it is not possible to always keep backward
compatibility / functionality. We are not backward we need to stay
contemporary.


On 11 August 2014 10:36, svetlana  wrote:

> On Mon, 11 Aug 2014, at 19:20, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> > Hoi,
> > Code review should be a strictly technical process surely. However the
> > community CANNOT decide on everything. The WMF has one codebase for
> > MediaWiki and it explicitly defines with long lead times the things it is
> > working on. It does invite the community to be involved in the process.
>
> It does not. It first designs a software and implements it, and then
> /tweaks/ it. Community should be asked what it'd like much, much earlier.
> Community participation in product design is currently impossible.
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Martijn Hoekstra]

On Aug 11, 2014 12:04 PM, "Dan Garry"  wrote:
>
> On 11 August 2014 10:56, Ricordisamoa 
wrote:
> >
> > The same is going to happen for Flow (which I strongly believe is
needed,
> > but is being deployed untimely)
>
>
> Flow is neither ready nor proposed for wider deployment yet, so I do not
> understand your comment.

I think this is where part of the problem lies. Will discussion on whether
or not to deploy it to a local wiki still be possible when the WMF decides
it is ready for wider deployment, with a possible no for an answer?

--Martijn

>
> Other than its deployment to our test infrastructure, Flow has only been
> deployed to a very limited subset of pages (e.g. Wikiproject talk pages)
by
> the explicit request of the people involved in maintaining those pages.
> Those deployments were invaluable for finding bugs, and were also
generally
> well received by the people who requested the deployments.
>
> Dan
>
> --
> Dan Garry
> Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
> Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Dan Garry]

On 11 August 2014 10:56, Ricordisamoa  wrote:
>
> The same is going to happen for Flow (which I strongly believe is needed,
> but is being deployed untimely)


Flow is neither ready nor proposed for wider deployment yet, so I do not
understand your comment.

Other than its deployment to our test infrastructure, Flow has only been
deployed to a very limited subset of pages (e.g. Wikiproject talk pages) by
the explicit request of the people involved in maintaining those pages.
Those deployments were invaluable for finding bugs, and were also generally
well received by the people who requested the deployments.

Dan

-- 
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Associate Product Manager, Mobile Apps
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Ricordisamoa]

Il 11/08/2014 11:36, svetlana ha scritto:

On Mon, 11 Aug 2014, at 19:20, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

Hoi,
Code review should be a strictly technical process surely. However the
community CANNOT decide on everything. The WMF has one codebase for
MediaWiki and it explicitly defines with long lead times the things it is
working on. It does invite the community to be involved in the process.

It does not. It first designs a software and implements it, and then /tweaks/ 
it. Community should be asked what it'd like much, much earlier. Community 
participation in product design is currently impossible.
Agreed. Everything made by WMF to 'attract new readers' is actually 
disgusting real editors, more for the way they are introduced than for 
the actual features.

I can think of VisualEditor, Typography refresh, now MediaViewer.
The same is going to happen for Flow (which I strongly believe is 
needed, but is being deployed untimely) and Phabricator.
When thinking of good features recently introduced by the WMF, only Echo 
comes to my mind (Wikidata is maintained by Wikimedia Deutschland).
Why aren't they implementing a global repository for gadgets, modules, 
templates which is (IMHO) what the community needs first?


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
This is simply not true. At Wikimania there were several sessions where the
topic was what will the technical underpinnings be of our software. It was
also discussed to some extend what kind of effect things may have on a
community. When you are in those conversations you realise that many
complications are considered; it is not easy nor obvious.
Thanks,
GerardM

NB there is not one community, there are many with often completely
diverging opinions. Technically it is not possible to always keep backward
compatibility / functionality. We are not backward we need to stay
contemporary.


On 11 August 2014 10:36, svetlana  wrote:

> On Mon, 11 Aug 2014, at 19:20, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> > Hoi,
> > Code review should be a strictly technical process surely. However the
> > community CANNOT decide on everything. The WMF has one codebase for
> > MediaWiki and it explicitly defines with long lead times the things it is
> > working on. It does invite the community to be involved in the process.
>
> It does not. It first designs a software and implements it, and then
> /tweaks/ it. Community should be asked what it'd like much, much earlier.
> Community participation in product design is currently impossible.
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[svetlana]

On Mon, 11 Aug 2014, at 19:20, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> Hoi,
> Code review should be a strictly technical process surely. However the
> community CANNOT decide on everything. The WMF has one codebase for
> MediaWiki and it explicitly defines with long lead times the things it is
> working on. It does invite the community to be involved in the process.

It does not. It first designs a software and implements it, and then /tweaks/ 
it. Community should be asked what it'd like much, much earlier. Community 
participation in product design is currently impossible.

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
Code review should be a strictly technical process surely. However the
community CANNOT decide on everything. The WMF has one codebase for
MediaWiki and it explicitly defines with long lead times the things it is
working on. It does invite the community to be involved in the process.
However, this is where and when the technical future is decided. Several of
the decisions do not have an option for a community to decide they want it
or not when they are confronted with the realised software/future.

You know our projects, you know our licenses. If you, the "community"do not
like what you have, you can fork. At Wikimania forking and leaving the
community was very much discussed. Watch Jimbo's presentation for instance,
he may be aghast that I quote him here but in his state of the Wiki he made
it abundantly clear that it is your option to stay or go.
Thanks,
   GerardM


On 11 August 2014 08:55, Strainu  wrote:

> 2014-08-10 17:00 GMT+03:00 Michał Łazowik :
> > Wiadomość napisana przez Nicolas Vervelle  w dniu
> 10 sie 2014, o godz. 15:45:
> >
> >> I hope it's not an other step from WMF to prevent the application of
> >> community decisions when they not agree with it. I fear that they will
> use
> >> this to bypass community decisions. For example like forcing again VE on
> >> everyone on enwki: last year, sysop were able to apply community
> decision
> >> against Erik wishes only because they had access to site wide js or CSS.
> >
> > I'd like to believe that code-reviewing would mean improving code
> quality, security
> > and performance (applies to javascript).
>
> I would like to believe that too. More likely though, without a
> serious comittment from the Foundation (which I heard nothing about),
> that would mean waiting for months, possibly years for reviews on
> small wikis.
>
> Also, code review should be a strictly technical process and should
> not be used to overrule the community's decisions.
>
> Strainu
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Strainu]

2014-08-10 17:00 GMT+03:00 Michał Łazowik :
> Wiadomość napisana przez Nicolas Vervelle  w dniu 10 sie 
> 2014, o godz. 15:45:
>
>> I hope it's not an other step from WMF to prevent the application of
>> community decisions when they not agree with it. I fear that they will use
>> this to bypass community decisions. For example like forcing again VE on
>> everyone on enwki: last year, sysop were able to apply community decision
>> against Erik wishes only because they had access to site wide js or CSS.
>
> I'd like to believe that code-reviewing would mean improving code quality, 
> security
> and performance (applies to javascript).

I would like to believe that too. More likely though, without a
serious comittment from the Foundation (which I heard nothing about),
that would mean waiting for months, possibly years for reviews on
small wikis.

Also, code review should be a strictly technical process and should
not be used to overrule the community's decisions.

Strainu

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[James HK]

Hi,

> etc. These are important capabilities of the wiki that have been used
> for many clearly beneficial purposes. In the long run, we will want to
> apply a code review process to these changes as with any other
> deployed code, but for now the system works as it is and we have no
> intent to remove this capability.

I first thought when witnessing the explicit removal of some lines of
code from the German MediaWiki:Common.js [0] followed by the
alteration of permission (meaning the assignment of the newly created
 right) to the same page was a coincidence.

Now, having observed that not only user Eloquence (aka Erik Moeller)
himself engaged in the enforcement of   right on de.wp
[1] but soon after a workaround was published a change was deployed
[2, 3] as counter measurement to block any possible interference can
no longer be interpret as acting in good faith but rather strikes me
as a form of oppression (or worst as censorship).

> This protection level provides an additional path to manage these
> situations by preventing edits to the relevant pages (we're happy to
> help apply any urgent edits) until a particular situation has calmed
> down.

What situation did emerge that such drastic measures were/are necessary?

[0] 
https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Common.js&diff=prev&oldid=132946422

[1] 
https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki%3ACommon.js&action=historysubmit&diff=132951396&oldid=132951390

[2] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/153345/ +
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/153351/

[3] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69380

Cheers

On 8/10/14, Erik Moeller  wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> Admins are currently given broad leeway to customize the user
> experience for all users, including addition of site-wide JS, CSS,
> etc. These are important capabilities of the wiki that have been used
> for many clearly beneficial purposes. In the long run, we will want to
> apply a code review process to these changes as with any other
> deployed code, but for now the system works as it is and we have no
> intent to remove this capability.
>
> However, we've clarified in a number of venues that use of the
> MediaWiki: namespace to disable site features is unacceptable. If such
> a conflict arises, we're prepared to revoke permissions if required.
> This protection level provides an additional path to manage these
> situations by preventing edits to the relevant pages (we're happy to
> help apply any urgent edits) until a particular situation has calmed
> down.
>
> Thanks,
> Erik
> --
> Erik Möller
> VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Vito]

After VE fiasco I would had expected to see a less full of itself 
Wikimedia. I was wrong.


The Roman Empire strength was its ability to make Romans out of other peoples.
The wiki strenght is making editors and develepers out of netizens.
Rome felt before losing its ability.
Is wiki losing its one? Will it survive becoming a weird socialnetwork ran 
by a bunch of employee with no actual experience of daily editing?


Vito

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Il 10 agosto 2014 22:31:55 Tyler Romeo  ha scritto:


Wow this is pretty depressing, although in today's age I cannot say I'm
surprised. Corporations have always been about controlling their consumers,
and it was really only a matter of time before the WMF fell into that as
well. I wonder whether there's any legitimate justification for all of
this, or whether it's just a repeat of the VisualEditor fiasco, aka, "the
WMF knows best" kind of thing.

*-- *
*Tyler Romeo*
Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016
Major in Computer Science


On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 3:19 PM, Siebrand Mazeland 
wrote:

>
> > Op 10 aug. 2014 om 20:12 heeft Ricordisamoa <
> ricordisa...@openmailbox.org> het volgende geschreven:
> >
> > I'd really like to hear Jimbo's opinion on the
> matter
>
> You should really watch Jimmy's speech at the Wikimania closing session.
> You might be surprised.
>
> Cheers!
>
> --
> Siebrand
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Tyler Romeo]

Wow this is pretty depressing, although in today's age I cannot say I'm
surprised. Corporations have always been about controlling their consumers,
and it was really only a matter of time before the WMF fell into that as
well. I wonder whether there's any legitimate justification for all of
this, or whether it's just a repeat of the VisualEditor fiasco, aka, "the
WMF knows best" kind of thing.

*-- *
*Tyler Romeo*
Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016
Major in Computer Science


On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 3:19 PM, Siebrand Mazeland 
wrote:

>
> > Op 10 aug. 2014 om 20:12 heeft Ricordisamoa <
> ricordisa...@openmailbox.org> het volgende geschreven:
> >
> > I'd really like to hear Jimbo's opinion on the
> matter
>
> You should really watch Jimmy's speech at the Wikimania closing session.
> You might be surprised.
>
> Cheers!
>
> --
> Siebrand
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Siebrand Mazeland]

> Op 10 aug. 2014 om 20:12 heeft Ricordisamoa  
> het volgende geschreven:
> 
> I'd really like to hear Jimbo's opinion on the matter

You should really watch Jimmy's speech at the Wikimania closing session. You 
might be surprised.

Cheers!

--
Siebrand
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Vito]

Superprotect is a feature, the way it will be used must be determined by 
consensus, on a theoretical basis there are different possible good uses. 
But, anyway, anyone using this feature should be accountable to the 
community, like anyone holding any advanced rights.


Vito

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Il 10 agosto 2014 20:01:19 Erwin Dokter  ha scritto:


On 10-08-2014 15:35, svetlana wrote:
>
> This change solves a problem that does not exist.
> We either trust sysops, or we don't.

I concur. There are enough admins available to revert bad code
additions. Also, this measure is completely without effect.

*Suppose* I were a rogue admin wanting to add some bad code to common.js
that disables some WMF feature; I will be reverted by staff and
common.js is superprotected.

Oh well, I'll just create a hidden default gadget... Happy hunting!

Regards,
--
Erwin Dokter


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Ricordisamoa]

I'd really like to hear Jimbo's opinion on the matter

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[MZMcBride]

Erwin Dokter wrote:
>On 10-08-2014 15:35, svetlana wrote:
>> This change solves a problem that does not exist.
>> We either trust sysops, or we don't.
>
>I concur. There are enough admins available to revert bad code
>additions. Also, this measure is completely without effect.
>
>*Suppose* I were a rogue admin wanting to add some bad code to common.js
>that disables some WMF feature; I will be reverted by staff and
>common.js is superprotected.
>
>Oh well, I'll just create a hidden default gadget... Happy hunting!

Page protection doesn't persist if you delete and restore the page, as a
German Wikipedia admin has now pointed out with "MediaWiki:Common.js".

I agree with svetlana as well: the security of the entire MediaWiki
infrastructure, which in turn is the security of a large portion of
Wikimedia wikis, relies on the idea that local administrators can be
trusted. Erik has now personally re-super-protected "MediaWiki:Common.js"
and he continues to stoke the fires of war with the German Wikipedia.

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Benjamin Lees]

This seems like an unfortunate escalation on the WMF's part.  Both sides
have a responsibility to try to work together, but as a practical matter,
the community does not answer to a single person, and the WMF staff do:
it's likely that the first olive branch is going to need to come from the
WMF side.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Erwin Dokter]

On 10-08-2014 15:35, svetlana wrote:


This change solves a problem that does not exist.
We either trust sysops, or we don't.


I concur. There are enough admins available to revert bad code 
additions. Also, this measure is completely without effect.


*Suppose* I were a rogue admin wanting to add some bad code to common.js 
that disables some WMF feature; I will be reverted by staff and 
common.js is superprotected.


Oh well, I'll just create a hidden default gadget... Happy hunting!

Regards,
--
Erwin Dokter


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Ricordisamoa]

Il 10/08/2014 19:33, Ricordisamoa ha scritto:

Il 10/08/2014 15:27, Erik Moeller ha scritto:

Hi folks,

Admins are currently given broad leeway to customize the user
experience for all users, including addition of site-wide JS, CSS,
etc. These are important capabilities of the wiki that have been used
for many clearly beneficial purposes. In the long run, we will want to
apply a code review process to these changes as with any other
deployed code, but for now the system works as it is and we have no
intent to remove this capability.

However, we've clarified in a number of venues that use of the
MediaWiki: namespace to disable site features is unacceptable. If such
a conflict arises, we're prepared to revoke permissions if required.
This protection level provides an additional path to manage these
situations by preventing edits to the relevant pages (we're happy to
help apply any urgent edits) until a particular situation has calmed
down.

Thanks,
Erik
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&dir=prev&offset=20140810134614&limit=1&type=gblrights 



WMF vs. community?
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Superprotection
Updated link: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Superprotect_rights


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Ricordisamoa]

Il 10/08/2014 15:27, Erik Moeller ha scritto:

Hi folks,

Admins are currently given broad leeway to customize the user
experience for all users, including addition of site-wide JS, CSS,
etc. These are important capabilities of the wiki that have been used
for many clearly beneficial purposes. In the long run, we will want to
apply a code review process to these changes as with any other
deployed code, but for now the system works as it is and we have no
intent to remove this capability.

However, we've clarified in a number of venues that use of the
MediaWiki: namespace to disable site features is unacceptable. If such
a conflict arises, we're prepared to revoke permissions if required.
This protection level provides an additional path to manage these
situations by preventing edits to the relevant pages (we're happy to
help apply any urgent edits) until a particular situation has calmed
down.

Thanks,
Erik

https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&dir=prev&offset=20140810134614&limit=1&type=gblrights

WMF vs. community?
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Superprotection

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Nicolas Vervelle]

Le 10 août 2014 17:06, "James HK"  a écrit :
>
> Hi,
>
> > It could mean that, but of course it is actually introduced to prevent
> > the German community from deactivating the Media Viewer.
>
> User JEissfeldt, removed `mw.config.set("wgMediaViewerOnClick",
> false);` from Common.js [0] and is the same person who sets
> ``.
>
> I have no idea what the German community wants or doesn't want but
> using `protect-level-superprotect` to block potential edits is rather
> questionable.
>
> [0]
https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Common.js&diff=prev&oldid=132946422
>

Thanks for the diff... That shows what this super protect power is really
for: WMF forcing something against community wishes/discussion. My fear
wasn't unfounded. Clearly a huge step backwards for the wiki philosophy
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[James HK]

Hi,

> It could mean that, but of course it is actually introduced to prevent
> the German community from deactivating the Media Viewer.

User JEissfeldt, removed `mw.config.set("wgMediaViewerOnClick",
false);` from Common.js [0] and is the same person who sets
``.

I have no idea what the German community wants or doesn't want but
using `protect-level-superprotect` to block potential edits is rather
questionable.

[0] 
https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Common.js&diff=prev&oldid=132946422

Cheers

On 8/10/14, John Mark Vandenberg  wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 9:00 PM, Michał Łazowik  wrote:
>> Wiadomość napisana przez Nicolas Vervelle  w dniu 10
>> sie 2014, o godz. 15:45:
>>
>>> I hope it's not an other step from WMF to prevent the application of
>>> community decisions when they not agree with it. I fear that they will
>>> use
>>> this to bypass community decisions. For example like forcing again VE on
>>> everyone on enwki: last year, sysop were able to apply community decision
>>> against Erik wishes only because they had access to site wide js or CSS.
>>
>> I'd like to believe that code-reviewing would mean improving code quality,
>> security
>> and performance (applies to javascript).
>
> It could mean that, but of course it is actually introduced to prevent
> the German community from deactivating the Media Viewer.
>
> https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Common.js&action=history
>
> I remember when we used to beg for the WMF to deploy extensions.
> Now we really need to beg for the WMF to not deploy extensions ...
>
> --
> John Vandenberg
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[John Mark Vandenberg]

On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 9:00 PM, Michał Łazowik  wrote:
> Wiadomość napisana przez Nicolas Vervelle  w dniu 10 sie 
> 2014, o godz. 15:45:
>
>> I hope it's not an other step from WMF to prevent the application of
>> community decisions when they not agree with it. I fear that they will use
>> this to bypass community decisions. For example like forcing again VE on
>> everyone on enwki: last year, sysop were able to apply community decision
>> against Erik wishes only because they had access to site wide js or CSS.
>
> I'd like to believe that code-reviewing would mean improving code quality, 
> security
> and performance (applies to javascript).

It could mean that, but of course it is actually introduced to prevent
the German community from deactivating the Media Viewer.

https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Common.js&action=history

I remember when we used to beg for the WMF to deploy extensions.
Now we really need to beg for the WMF to not deploy extensions ...

--
John Vandenberg

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Maarten Dammers]

Hi Erik,

I understand you reasoning, but you couldn't have communicated and timed 
this in a worse way. You might be doing the right thing, but because of 
this ill communication and timing, this will be completely overshadowed. 
That saddens me. Good luck with the shit storm :-(


Maarten

Erik Moeller schreef op 10-8-2014 14:27:

Hi folks,

Admins are currently given broad leeway to customize the user
experience for all users, including addition of site-wide JS, CSS,
etc. These are important capabilities of the wiki that have been used
for many clearly beneficial purposes. In the long run, we will want to
apply a code review process to these changes as with any other
deployed code, but for now the system works as it is and we have no
intent to remove this capability.

However, we've clarified in a number of venues that use of the
MediaWiki: namespace to disable site features is unacceptable. If such
a conflict arises, we're prepared to revoke permissions if required.
This protection level provides an additional path to manage these
situations by preventing edits to the relevant pages (we're happy to
help apply any urgent edits) until a particular situation has calmed
down.

Thanks,
Erik



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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[hoo]

Totally agree with that, dirty common.js hacks aren't really beneficial
for anyone.

Cheers,

Marius


On Sun, 2014-08-10 at 14:56 +0100, Derk-Jan Hartman wrote:
> On 10 aug. 2014, at 14:27, Erik Moeller  wrote:
> 
> > However, we've clarified in a number of venues that use of the
> > MediaWiki: namespace to disable site features is unacceptable. If such
> > a conflict arises, we're prepared to revoke permissions if required.
> > This protection level provides an additional path to manage these
> > situations by preventing edits to the relevant pages (we're happy to
> > help apply any urgent edits) until a particular situation has calmed
> > down.
> 
> I agree that the current situation is basically something that grew 
> historically that is no longer sustainable. For a long time this was not 
> really a problem and good faith made it work regardless of how broken it was, 
> but when it is used for manipulation, then action is required.
> 
> This is not a new thing, but perhaps a clarification that was long over due 
> (and one we perhaps we shied away from too long). We need to collaborate to 
> iterate and improve the software for our movement. I'm the first to support 
> the fact that we have not been able to do that in the past for many reasons. 
> We are now becoming more capable, but we will also still be making a lot of 
> mistakes from various roles, while building the actual feedback loop required 
> to perfect this process. BUT that is a separate issue and there are different 
> venues for that, which are not Common.js -like methodologies.
> 
> DJ ,
> Volunteer developer
> 
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Michał Łazowik]

Wiadomość napisana przez Nicolas Vervelle  w dniu 10 sie 
2014, o godz. 15:45:

> I hope it's not an other step from WMF to prevent the application of
> community decisions when they not agree with it. I fear that they will use
> this to bypass community decisions. For example like forcing again VE on
> everyone on enwki: last year, sysop were able to apply community decision
> against Erik wishes only because they had access to site wide js or CSS.

I'd like to believe that code-reviewing would mean improving code quality, 
security
and performance (applies to javascript).

Michał


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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Derk-Jan Hartman]

On 10 aug. 2014, at 14:27, Erik Moeller  wrote:

> However, we've clarified in a number of venues that use of the
> MediaWiki: namespace to disable site features is unacceptable. If such
> a conflict arises, we're prepared to revoke permissions if required.
> This protection level provides an additional path to manage these
> situations by preventing edits to the relevant pages (we're happy to
> help apply any urgent edits) until a particular situation has calmed
> down.

I agree that the current situation is basically something that grew 
historically that is no longer sustainable. For a long time this was not really 
a problem and good faith made it work regardless of how broken it was, but when 
it is used for manipulation, then action is required.

This is not a new thing, but perhaps a clarification that was long over due 
(and one we perhaps we shied away from too long). We need to collaborate to 
iterate and improve the software for our movement. I'm the first to support the 
fact that we have not been able to do that in the past for many reasons. We are 
now becoming more capable, but we will also still be making a lot of mistakes 
from various roles, while building the actual feedback loop required to perfect 
this process. BUT that is a separate issue and there are different venues for 
that, which are not Common.js -like methodologies.

DJ ,
Volunteer developer



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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Nicolas Vervelle]

Le 10 août 2014 15:35, "svetlana"  a écrit :
>
> On Sun, 10 Aug 2014, at 23:19, K. Peachey wrote:
> > Lets all welcome the new overlord Erik.
> >
> > Add a new protection level called "superprotect"
> > Assigned to nobody by default. Requested by Erik Möller for the purposes
> > of protecting pages such that sysop permissions are not sufficient to
> > edit them.
> > Change-Id: Idfa211257dbacc7623d42393257de1525ff01e9e
> > <
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#q,Idfa211257dbacc7623d42393257de1525ff01e9e,n,z
>
> >
> > https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/153302/
>
> This change solves a problem that does not exist.
> We either trust sysops, or we don't.
>
> Erik Moeller wrote:
> > In the long run, we will want to
> > apply a code review process to these
> > changes as with any other deployed code
>
> I hope such things will not need to go through the WMF. Or is that what
you'd like?

I hope it's not an other step from WMF to prevent the application of
community decisions when they not agree with it. I fear that they will use
this to bypass community decisions. For example like forcing again VE on
everyone on enwki: last year, sysop were able to apply community decision
against Erik wishes only because they had access to site wide js or CSS.

Nico
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[svetlana]

On Sun, 10 Aug 2014, at 23:19, K. Peachey wrote:
> Lets all welcome the new overlord Erik.
> 
> Add a new protection level called "superprotect"
> Assigned to nobody by default. Requested by Erik Möller for the purposes
> of protecting pages such that sysop permissions are not sufficient to
> edit them.
> Change-Id: Idfa211257dbacc7623d42393257de1525ff01e9e
> 
> 
> https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/153302/

This change solves a problem that does not exist.
We either trust sysops, or we don't.

Erik Moeller wrote:
> In the long run, we will want to
> apply a code review process to these 
> changes as with any other deployed code

I hope such things will not need to go through the WMF. Or is that what you'd 
like?

svetlana.

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[Erik Moeller]

Hi folks,

Admins are currently given broad leeway to customize the user
experience for all users, including addition of site-wide JS, CSS,
etc. These are important capabilities of the wiki that have been used
for many clearly beneficial purposes. In the long run, we will want to
apply a code review process to these changes as with any other
deployed code, but for now the system works as it is and we have no
intent to remove this capability.

However, we've clarified in a number of venues that use of the
MediaWiki: namespace to disable site features is unacceptable. If such
a conflict arises, we're prepared to revoke permissions if required.
This protection level provides an additional path to manage these
situations by preventing edits to the relevant pages (we're happy to
help apply any urgent edits) until a particular situation has calmed
down.

Thanks,
Erik
-- 
Erik Möller
VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation

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[Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

[K. Peachey]

Lets all welcome the new overlord Erik.

Add a new protection level called "superprotect"
Assigned to nobody by default. Requested by Erik Möller for the purposes
of protecting pages such that sysop permissions are not sufficient to


edit them.
Change-Id: Idfa211257dbacc7623d42393257de1525ff01e9e


https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/153302/



Someone clearly can't take criticism of their projects well.
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