Fwd: Re: So lets say we do it
-- Forwarded Message -- Subject: Re: So lets say we do it Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 02:51:47 -0800 From: Kenny Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't know how to use mail lists, so i though I might mail you In responce to your ideas about reorganizing the winehq site, i think there should be a site for development, like winehq, and a site for users. most users don't want to know about listview overhauls, etc. They wnat to know if their precious Quicken will run on linux or not. I'm sure a web design would be EASILY feasible. I'm a web designer (never done anything that big), and a 6-month linux user and there are tons of people like me who i'm sure would love to help. I use wine because I am somewhat computer-savvy (A+ certified savvy). I hope this message can be passed along, if you can't maybe you can tell me how to quickly... would google-groups let me?? kenny smith (AIM:standsolid) --- -- Dimi.
Re: So lets say we do it
Am Fre, 2002-11-01 um 00.09 schrieb Dimitrie O. Paun: -- the big Navigation box is wasted space, because 1. It contains items everybody expects as a left-hand menu 2. Contains no real content -- while pretty, the layout is a non-standard, and is a wee bit too far away from the least surprise principle -- the news/announcements need a bit more space I disagree. Although there may be room to improvement, I see no point in making winehq conform to that standard. There are already way too many web sites looking all the same. Winehq has a top navigation bar, and that's perfectly fine to my taste. You need only *one* click. In our site, you need 3-4 clicks, scrolling, etc. Vast majority of people don't have such a long attention span. Sorry, people who consider 4 mouseclicks too many will not have the patience to setup wine, not even after your 0.8 release. Martin -- Martin WilckPhone: +49 5251 8 15113 Fujitsu Siemens Computers Fax: +49 5251 8 20409 Heinz-Nixdorf-Ring 1mailto:Martin.Wilck;Fujitsu-Siemens.com D-33106 Paderborn http://www.fujitsu-siemens.com/primergy
Re: So lets say we do it
On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote: On October 31, 2002 07:00 pm, Francois Gouget wrote: This is a good start. Here are my comments, based on the following principles: [...] 1. About 1.1. Intro 1.2. Why Wine 1.3. Wine myths debunked 1.4. Technical details 1.5. Status (or move this to the How to contribute or Development section?) I think this one should be top-level. I was fascinated for a long while by http://www.gnustep.org/information/progress.html, and I kept visiting the site frequently to monitor their progress. They don't have screenshots. What the hell is wrong with them? Ah, they hid them carefully like us... Anyway, I'm not sure 'Status' should be top-level and if you look on GNUStep's site it is in fact level 2 (it's a submenu of 'Information'). [...] 1.12. Legal This menu should show as About on top level, and when clicked, should expand to the above structure. This is because it's long, and the items here (apart from Status) don't merit front-page status. My thinking is that only the top-level items would be visible on the home page and then you can click on an item to expand it and go to its first page. Gimp (http://www.gimp.org) is a good example of that. When you arrive on the home page you don't see the sub-items of the Documentation menu, and if you go to the 'Documentation' page you don't see the sub items of 'The Gimp'. Actually, if we want to reduce the number of top-level menus in my proposal we could make 'Screenshot' a sub item of 'About' as long as About is expanded when you go to the site's home page. Again, see how it works in the Gimp's web site: 1. The Gimp 1.1. About The Gimp 1.2. Screenshots 1.3. About this site ... 2. Documentation 3. Resources 4. Download 5. Gimp Art 6. Important links Once we have the menu hierarchy we can decide how to display them. I see four possible ways: 1. not pre-expanded left-side menus http://www.gimp.org/ 2. pre-expanded left-side menus http://www.gnustep.org/ 3. drop-down menus http://www.ca.com/ 4. two-level horizontal menu http://www.tcl.tk/software/ I vote for 1. 2. News 2.1. Latest Wine release 2.2. Latest WWN 2.3. WWN back issues 2.4. Press Hopefully we can fit all this in one page, with a clever 1,2 box layout, and we can drop the submenus. I don't think these can fit on one page. For instance the back issues cannot be on the same page as the current issue. So I think the most natural way to deal with this is to have sub-menus. 3. Screenshots General screenshots, typically full desktops. Also point people to the Application Database. 4. Application Database 5. How to contribute 5.1. Application maintainer 5.2. Bug triage 5.3. Web site maintenance 5.4. Development 5.4.1. Wine 0.9.0 task list 5.4.2. The Tasklist (bug 395) 5.4.3. The FIXMEs (bug 455) 5.4.4. The Tasklets (bug 406) 5.4.5. The most wanted bugs (a Bugzilla query returning bugs with the most votes) 5.6. Write regression tests 5.5. Support Wine-based products This should expand as About on click only. The 5.4.x items are a bit too deeply buried, considering that they are high visibility. Maybe we can link to 5.4 from the Status page. My thinking was that all 5.x items would be on the same page and that the 5.x menus would just point to the relevant section of that page. The 5.4.x would not actually be visible on the page and just exist as sections in the page. That's subject to that page not being too long of course but that should be ok. Or even better, maybe we can make 5.4 a top-level item, and rename it Todo. No. I don't want to give it priority or separate it from the other extremely important ways to contribute to Wine. 6. Download 6.1. Binary Packages 6.2. Source tar files 6.3. Source tars for CVS 6.4. LXR 6.5. CVS 6.6. CVS Web 6.7. Other CVS modules (web site) Too complex. I think only 6.1, and 6.2 belong here, and not as submenus, but part of the page. The rest should be moved under 7. Yeah, they can be in one or the other. The main thing to avoid is to duplicate them. The reason why I put them there is that they are about downloading or retrieving stuff while the Development page should be more about what to do once you have the source. [...] 8. Documentation [...] 9. Bugs What about this: 8. Support 8.1 FAQ 8.2 Howto 8.3 Bugzilla 8.4 Commercial support 9. Documentation 9.1 User Guide 9.2 Developer Guide 9.3 Packager Guide 9.4 API Docs Looks good. I like it. -- Francois Gouget [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://fgouget.free.fr/ The nice thing about meditation is that it makes doing nothing quite respectable -- Paul Dean
Re: So lets say we do it
On November 1, 2002 03:04 am, Francois Gouget wrote: Anyway, I'm not sure 'Status' should be top-level and if you look on GNUStep's site it is in fact level 2 (it's a submenu of 'Information'). It is definitely a 'one-click' item. I get a instant surge of sympathy for projects (there are quite a few) providing this on their home page, just like the screenshot link. It means they did their homework, and they don't expect *me* to figure out their status (which is impossible, BTW). The only way we can have it as a submenu is if the menu is automatically expanded, but I don't like that for many reasons. I really think this falls in the same category as screenshots. Give it a try, it will be within the top 5 pages hit on the site, which certainly warants top-level status. -- Dimi.
Re: So lets say we do it
On November 1, 2002 03:04 am, Francois Gouget wrote: My thinking is that only the top-level items would be visible on the home page and then you can click on an item to expand it and go to its first page. Agreed. Actually, if we want to reduce the number of top-level menus in my proposal we could make 'Screenshot' a sub item of 'About' as long as About is expanded when you go to the site's home page. I don't think we need to do that. I think we've reached a very nice top-level structure, no need to clutter it by automatically expanding the About menu. Once we have the menu hierarchy we can decide how to display them. I see four possible ways: 1. not pre-expanded left-side menus http://www.gimp.org/ 2. pre-expanded left-side menus http://www.gnustep.org/ 3. drop-down menus http://www.ca.com/ 4. two-level horizontal menu http://www.tcl.tk/software/ I vote for 1. Me too. 2. News [...] I don't think these can fit on one page. For instance the back issues cannot be on the same page as the current issue. So I think the most natural way to deal with this is to have sub-menus. Not important, but we may not need submenus. Think of this: 1. Top, slim box with Stable/Development releases 2. Narrow box to the right with last 5 WNNs (like now of home page) with a link at the bottom Arhives... 3. A big central box with the last 3-4 news In fact, come to think of it, we can make this the Home page. :) My thinking was that all 5.x items would be on the same page and that the 5.x menus would just point to the relevant section of that page. The 5.4.x would not actually be visible on the page and just exist as sections in the page. That's subject to that page not being too long of course but that should be ok. OK, as long as we don't have a third menu level. Top-level, and sub-menu is plenty. Or even better, maybe we can make 5.4 a top-level item, and rename it Todo. No. I don't want to give it priority or separate it from the other extremely important ways to contribute to Wine. Fine. As long as we provide a link from Status... :) 6. Download [...] Yeah, they can be in one or the other. The main thing to avoid is to duplicate them. The reason why I put them there is that they are about downloading or retrieving stuff while the Development page should be more about what to do once you have the source. But the question is why download. It's clear that the vast majority targets developers, let's not confuse regular users with those options. And no, we don't need to duplicate them, that for sure. We need a simple download page (with links to tarball, .rpms, .debs) for users. The CVS access, LXR, what have you belong in the development section IMO. -- Dimi.
Re: So lets say we do it
On Thu, Oct 31, 2002 at 02:11:31AM -0500, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote: That is, Lets assume for the sake of argument that Alexandre likes my 0.8 idea so much, that he releases Wine 0.8 with much fanfare next Monday (so we have a good audience), and the news reaches Slashdot where a message with a link to http://www.winehq.org is posted, in good CmdrTaco fashion... And so, let's see what's going to happen: 1. 90% of /.ers will click on the link, and WineHQ gets Slashdotted! :) 2. People will look for the typical left-side menu: Home About Status Development Download Screenshots *BZZT* We don't have any. 5% will drop off here. Sorry to say that, but in this mail, *you* were talking *some* crap IMHO ;-) We *do* have screenshots. The About page has some pretty nice screenshot. OK, it's a minimalist approach, granted, but it does show IE etc. If you want more screenshots, then you just need to go to the AppDB. (although we don't mention it yet, so I'll add a subtitle for more screenshots, see AppDB to the screenshot now) 3. Then they'll visually search for the word Screenshot *BZZT* We don't have any on front page. 30% will drop off. *I* drop off here when I visit other projects, for crying out loud! The About Wine item *definitely* tells *everyone* that a screenshot should be found within the About Wine section... If we honoured every stupid link request, then the main page would look like some huge pile of... err... crap. We've been asked directly or indirectly countless times to include certain things on the main page (and we often thought hmm, this needs quite a bit of attention, so: put it on the main page ??). But including everything would be a HUGE mistake. Instead WineHQ needs a *clean* and obvious organisation (some improvements might well be possible here, I guess). And the idea of finding screenshot(s) on About Wine is definitely as good as it can ever get. So let's assume that by a miracle they'll discover the screenshots: do they make them drool? No, we loose another 15%. Hmm, k, it could be a bit more spectacular, correct. Damn, that's tough! Let's see what happens to the rest: 4. Let's download, and try it out Do we have officially sanctioned binaries (at the very least .rpms for RH, and .deb for Debian)? No. *BZZT* We loose another 30%. Again, *I* don't care about stuff that doesn't come as a binary .rpm for my RH system. I used to, not anymore. Well... obviously we don't have enough people who are willing to enforce a properly maintained package for various architectures. Instead we've got some chaotic heap of wildly differing packages. One could argue that this situation helps CodeWeavers' bottom line, though ;-) Fine, some will install what they download. What next? Hm, this Wine thing just sits there, it's not that simple. We need to read some docs. Back to the site. 5. Look at the docs Oh, we have some. We hate to read docs, but Wine is cool, so we swallow the pill. Only to find out it's out of date!!! What a piece of #$%! *I* am definitely not the one to blame here :) (BTW, you got a point here) *BZZT* Another 10% drop off. Thats 90% drop-off before they really tried it out! The rest 10%, go on. So, what do we do with it? 6. Look for a list of Win-apps that we can run Is there something on the site? No. Blah, too much hassel... *BZZT* Another 5% go. Hmm, I guess it all boils down to having the About page get redesigned a bit. We should definitely include a prominent link to the AppDB, and maybe also a separate page with kickass knock-down screenshots... Does anyone want to give us some ideas about how the page should be redesigned ? (Don't even mention app-db, it's *way* too complicated!) Huh ?? I really can't follow you on that one... (ok, it's not a dumbed-down page listing some screenshots and nothing else apart from that, but it was never meant to be made for dummies) Which all boils down to the essential question: which amount of morons does our project need/want ? :-) So the 5% left, install wine, install a Win-app, and play around. Great, it works! They start learning the utilities, etc., but those are in flux, and we change them, and they get PO-ed. Another percent, or two leave the fold... OK, those ~ 90% might be somewhat drastic (after all if you really *need* to run Windoze apps, you'll be willing to go through quite some hassle), but it might be rather high indeed. May I suggest that you'd probably have fixed about 50% of these issues if you hadn't done this ranting about it, but instead used that time to fix them ? ;-)) Take it easy, Andreas
Re: So lets say we do it
If you want more screenshots, then you just need to go to the AppDB. (although we don't mention it yet, so I'll add a subtitle for more screenshots, see AppDB to the screenshot now) hmm.. IMHO the screenshots should be shown BEFORE the rest of the site shows up.. screenshots are the most important thing.. when i go to a side to download something that's not a cmdline tool i want screenshots.. and i want A LOT of them... in wine's case that would be screenshots of wine running all M$ products to give people a good laugh and motivate them to go on.. and after that IMPORTANT screenshots of wine running games... and after that some screenshots of wine running crap.. and atfer that the download screen with a 5 or 10 step installation instruction.. and after that the rest... 1) screenshots/flash animation with M$ products 2) screenshots/flash animation with games 3) download and a richly pictured 5 or 10 step installation guide (for dummies.. i mean REAL dummies.. hmm.. or let's say people who just installed Linux/Unix and miss their windows crap) 4) example config files to enable dummies to run the top 10 most-best-favourite-games in 2 or 3 steps (i think this is the MOST important point.. firms who want to run M$ products will have their consulting ppl who do things like installing wine for them.. but ppl who have to do things themselves are almost ppl who want to run games..) 5) all BLABLABLA and sciences nobody is interested in when he JUST wants to run M$ stuff on his linux/unix.. maybe you should select someone who takes care only of such stuff.. like Big mouthing, PR , ranting, tutorial writing, picture drawing, flash animations... etc.. that's meant to be a constructive critic.. for more inspirations have a look here.. http://www.microsoft.com Dirk
Re: So lets say we do it
On October 31, 2002 10:29 am, Andreas Mohr wrote: Sorry to say that, but in this mail, *you* were talking *some* crap IMHO ;-) It's OK, you just missed the point. :P Honestly, you did: it's not ranting, it's a way to highlight where, and what we need to do. I said that in the P.S. by the way. Reread it. We *do* have screenshots. The About page has some pretty nice screenshot. OK, it's a minimalist approach, granted, but it does show IE etc. All projects that have something to show, have a link to the screenshots on the front page. Period. *Except* us. What's the point in arguing that the entire world is stupid, but us?!? People expect that, the same way they expect a File, Edit, View, ... Help menu. Many just stop there, if they don't find it. I know *I* do that, for chrissake! Just remember: if we are pissing against the wind, we'll get wet. :) -- Dimi.
Re: So lets say we do it
Dimitrie O. Paun [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So the 5% left, install wine, install a Win-app, and play around. Great, it works! You forgot a few things here: First it doesn't even start because they don't have a config file. OK, they copy one from somewhere, it doesn't work because the drives are wrong. Then they don't have the proper registry (winedefault.reg? what's that?) Then they finally manage to run the installer but it puts stuff in RunOnce that never gets run so the app doesn't work. Then they finally make the app run but can't print anything. And when they ask for help they get told to fight the FAQ-O-Matic crap to maybe finally find an answer telling them they are an idiot. So no, I'm not going to make a general public release just yet... -- Alexandre Julliard [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So lets say we do it
El jue, 31 de oct de 2002, a las 02:11, Dimitrie O. Paun escribio: That is, Lets assume for the sake of argument that Alexandre likes my 0.8 idea so much, that he releases Wine 0.8 with much fanfare next Monday (so we have a good audience), 10th Anniversary (??-??-2003)? sounds to a good date. Regards, Carlos. -- ___ _ \ | / Infraestructuras | . |._ _ _| | ___ ___ ___http://www.andago.com | || ' |/ . |_ |/ . |/ . \__ GNU/Linux |_|_||_|_|\___|___|\_. |\___/ _ \ __|\ \ / Carlos A. Lozano ___'/ | \ -_) __/\__ \ -_) [ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ]\___|_| / _/\_\___| [ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ] http://www.epsxe.com
Re: So lets say we do it
On October 31, 2002 11:40 am, Carlos Lozano wrote: 10th Anniversary (??-??-2003)? sounds to a good date. Cool! :) Alexandre, when is that? -- Dimi.
Re: Re: So lets say we do it
From: Alexandre Julliard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2002/10/31 Thu AM 11:24:28 EST To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: Wine Devel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: So lets say we do it Dimitrie O. Paun [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So the 5% left, install wine, install a Win-app, and play around. Great, it works! You forgot a few things here: First it doesn't even start because they don't have a config file. OK, they copy one from somewhere, it doesn't work because the drives are wrong. Then they don't have the proper registry (winedefault.reg? what's that?) I was going to reply yesterday on this issue. I help a fair amount of people on irc that have config problems and there are a few things we should probably do to fix this. 1. Check the wine config on startup. If the config is missing or incorrect then launch a gui config app to fix things. It would be best if this tool had two user options, one for an Automatic setup and another for an Expert setup. We do a good job with wineinstall so I don't have much doubt that we could automate the config and satisfy 80%+ of users. 2. Make it easier for users to modify their configs via a gui tool. 3. Straighten out how packages(RPM, deb, etc) setup wine's config. I'm not even sure how this is done right now and LOTS of people come asking for help saying they have installed an RPM version of wine but don't know how to configure it. This might be completely solved by #1. Chris
Re: Re: So lets say we do it
2. People will look for the typical left-side menu: Home About Status Development Download Screenshots *BZZT* We don't have any. 5% will drop off here. Sorry to say that, but in this mail, *you* were talking *some* crap IMHO ;-) We *do* have screenshots. The About page has some pretty nice screenshot. OK, it's a minimalist approach, granted, but it does show IE etc. I'd also like to second the opinion that we should have a dedicated Screenshot entry right off of the main page. I do the same stuff that Dimitrie does, go to a project, look at some text briefly and then immediately want to see what the app looks like when it is working. So maybe leave the screenshot link off of the About page but also put a link on the main page. Chris
Re: So lets say we do it
On October 31, 2002 11:24 am, Alexandre Julliard wrote: You forgot a few things here: Yes, and no: it was getting late, hand was all funny, email was getting too long... :) First it doesn't even start because they don't have a config file. OK, Hear, hear! BTW, we should move configuration out of documentation/samples [...] it doesn't work because the drives are wrong. Yep. wineinstall? Then they don't have the proper registry (winedefault.reg? what's that?) :))) Then they finally manage to run the installer but it puts stuff in RunOnce that never gets run so the app doesn't work. See, I wasn't even aware of that! Then they finally make the app run but can't print anything. And True. when they ask for help they get told to fight the FAQ-O-Matic crap to maybe finally find an answer telling them they are an idiot. That FAQ-O-Matic should just be 'rm -rf'. It's crap. We either have a carefully hand-written FAQ, or nothing at all. So no, I'm not going to make a general public release just yet... I am not even suggesting it. I just went through the exercise so we can extract a TODO... -- Dimi.
Re: So lets say we do it
Dimitrie O. Paun [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On October 31, 2002 11:40 am, Carlos Lozano wrote: 10th Anniversary (??-??-2003)? sounds to a good date. Cool! :) Alexandre, when is that? Sometime in June, I don't have the exact date of the first release unfortunately. Release 0.0.2 was on June 25. -- Alexandre Julliard [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So lets say we do it
On Thu, Oct 31, 2002 at 08:24:28AM -0800, Alexandre Julliard wrote: Dimitrie O. Paun [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So the 5% left, install wine, install a Win-app, and play around. Great, it works! You forgot a few things here: As for the SuSE wine RPMS: First it doesn't even start because they don't have a config file. OK, they copy one from somewhere, it doesn't work because the drives are wrong. Been there, done that. Not very good, it is still using winesetuptk which might be too much in way of configuration. Then they don't have the proper registry (winedefault.reg? what's that?) Merged automatically with startup script. Then they finally manage to run the installer but it puts stuff in RunOnce that never gets run so the app doesn't work. Ok, this one is still missing. Then they finally make the app run but can't print anything. Two edged sword. CUPS works fine here, however if all applications are ready to print with WINEPS and winspool.drv is another issue. And when they ask for help they get told to fight the FAQ-O-Matic crap to maybe finally find an answer telling them they are an idiot. Yep. But this one is harder, what do you think needs to be there? So no, I'm not going to make a general public release just yet... Not yet too late for another 'Halloween' release though ;) Ciao, Marcus
Re: So lets say we do it
On Thu, 2002-10-31 at 12:19, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote: On October 31, 2002 11:24 am, Alexandre Julliard wrote: You forgot a few things here: [...] it doesn't work because the drives are wrong. Yep. wineinstall? Then they don't have the proper registry (winedefault.reg? what's that?) :))) I hate to jump in again, but isn't wine a little backwards from other releases when dealing with a fresh tar.gz install? I realize wineinstall will do the work for you, but aren't people just used to ./configure - make - make install? I think they do that, then they're stuck. configure always tells you to do a 'make depend make', why not throw in a little blrub Hey, if you're running this for the first time, run wineinstall instead. ? Or is wineinstall not doing what I think it is (setting up initial environment)? Ok, I'll be quiet for a few months again :) Rick -- -- Rick Romero IT Manager Valeo, Inc. ph: 262.695.4841 Sussex, WI. fax: 262.695.4850 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So lets say we do it
Dimitrie O. Paun [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On October 31, 2002 11:24 am, Alexandre Julliard wrote: First it doesn't even start because they don't have a config file. OK, Hear, hear! BTW, we should move configuration out of documentation/samples I don't think that would really help rpm users... IMO the whole concept is flawed (try editing the config while the wineserver is still running ;) configuration should be stored in the registry and there should be control panel applets to configure the various parts of Wine, which would allow changing things on the fly. Once we have that we need to make sure we have suitable defaults to allow running at least the drives/paths control panel without registry files at all. We also need the Wine dlls to register themselves instead of having to merge winedefault.reg by hand. Then it should be possible to write a .inf script to setup a new Wine install automatically from scratch. -- Alexandre Julliard [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So lets say we do it
On October 31, 2002 01:21 pm, Alexandre Julliard wrote: Sometime in June, I don't have the exact date of the first release unfortunately. Release 0.0.2 was on June 25. Too far away for 0.8, too close for 1.0. Maybe 0.9, if we're lucky. -- Dimi.
Re: So lets say we do it
On Thu, Oct 31, 2002 at 01:19:33PM -0500, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote: On October 31, 2002 11:24 am, Alexandre Julliard wrote: You forgot a few things here: Yes, and no: it was getting late, hand was all funny, email was getting too long... :) First it doesn't even start because they don't have a config file. OK, Hear, hear! BTW, we should move configuration out of documentation/samples Hmm, why ? Where should it be then ? Having sample config in such a directory has a pretty long tradition. One thing that comes to my mind here is Debian. Then they finally manage to run the installer but it puts stuff in RunOnce that never gets run so the app doesn't work. See, I wasn't even aware of that! Hmm, my problem :-\ Then they finally make the app run but can't print anything. And True. I second that (at least sometimes). when they ask for help they get told to fight the FAQ-O-Matic crap to maybe finally find an answer telling them they are an idiot. That FAQ-O-Matic should just be 'rm -rf'. It's crap. We either have a carefully hand-written FAQ, or nothing at all. Gee, thanks ! You know how many man-weeks (err, months ?) I've been putting into it, right ? I guess I hereby declare that I'll stop ALL documentation work. Obviously it's not too appreciated, given the constant and very annoying whining. Not to mention that I've been constantly working behind the fact. For christ's sake, IF YOU CAN'T STAND THE DOCU, THEN *IMPROVE IT*. I did. (past tense) But maybe then it seems like I didn't... Boy, that'll give me quite some free time for RL work... -- Andreas MohrStauferstr. 6, D-71272 Renningen, Germany Tel. +49 7159 800604http://mohr.de.tt
Re: So lets say we do it
Em Qui, 2002-10-31 às 16:38, Dimitrie O. Paun escreveu: On October 31, 2002 01:21 pm, Alexandre Julliard wrote: Sometime in June, I don't have the exact date of the first release unfortunately. Release 0.0.2 was on June 25. Too far away for 0.8, too close for 1.0. Maybe 0.9, if we're lucky. Maybe it's better to call the next version 0.9. I checked up, 0.8 is already released :) It was the last version to be released before switching to the snapshot style version numbering. (the first snapshot was released February 1994) -- Dimi. -- Johan Dahlin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: So lets say we do it
On October 31, 2002 02:44 pm, Andreas Mohr wrote: Gee, thanks ! You know how many man-weeks (err, months ?) I've been putting into it, right ? I was referring to the interface, not the content. In fact, I think the web-interface makes a disservice to the content. In fact, I am saying quite the opposite: we should bring that content to more to the front, right now it's hidden way too deep inside the site. -- Dimi.
Re: So lets say we do it
On October 31, 2002 03:00 pm, Andreas Mohr wrote: Not yet too late for another 'Halloween' release though ;) Yep... ...next year ! ;) I don't want to jinx it, but at the rate we're going, we'd be lucky to do a 1.0 'Halloween' release next year :/ -- Dimi.
Re: So lets say we do it
On Thu, Oct 31, 2002 at 03:07:15PM -0500, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote: On October 31, 2002 03:00 pm, Andreas Mohr wrote: Not yet too late for another 'Halloween' release though ;) Yep... ...next year ! ;) I don't want to jinx it, but at the rate we're going, we'd be lucky to do a 1.0 'Halloween' release next year :/ Why, the current rate is avalanche-like ;) I'm growing ever more astonished about the increase in wine-patches per day... But of course you're sorta right, we're still quite far off the mark.
Re: So lets say we do it
On October 31, 2002 02:44 pm, Andreas Mohr wrote: For christ's sake, IF YOU CAN'T STAND THE DOCU, THEN *IMPROVE IT*. Well, that's a good point. And I did a bit, but not nearly as much as you. I did. (past tense) But maybe then it seems like I didn't... Hey, I've never complained about the work you did on the docs! All I am saying is that the docs are, in part, out of date, and I'm not pointing a finger at you, as it isn't your responsibility to keep them up-to-date. *I* didn't keep the ones I wrote up-to-date, so I don't dare point my finger at anyone :) The docs are huge, and requite work, which should be tackled by more than one person. No matter how much you work on them, if you are alone, you'll always be behind. So don't take my comments as an attack against you, the one actually working on the docs; quite the opposite, it's a comment to the community for not helping on the said maintenance. -- Dimi.
Re: So lets say we do it
On Thu, Oct 31, 2002 at 07:08:07PM +0100, Marcus Meissner wrote: On Thu, Oct 31, 2002 at 08:24:28AM -0800, Alexandre Julliard wrote: So no, I'm not going to make a general public release just yet... Not yet too late for another 'Halloween' release though ;) Yep... ...next year ! ;)
Re: So lets say we do it
On Thu, Oct 31, 2002 at 02:58:12PM -0500, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote: On October 31, 2002 02:44 pm, Andreas Mohr wrote: For christ's sake, IF YOU CAN'T STAND THE DOCU, THEN *IMPROVE IT*. Well, that's a good point. And I did a bit, but not nearly as much as you. I did. (past tense) But maybe then it seems like I didn't... Hey, I've never complained about the work you did on the docs! Not directly, yes. All I am saying is that the docs are, in part, out of date, and I'm not pointing a finger at you, as it isn't your responsibility to keep them up-to-date. *I* didn't keep the ones I wrote up-to-date, so I don't dare point my finger at anyone :) Heh. The docs are huge, and requite work, which should be tackled by more than one person. No matter how much you work on them, if you are alone, you'll always be behind. So don't take my comments as an attack against you, the one actually working on the docs; quite the opposite, it's a comment to the community for not helping on the said maintenance. Well, that maintenance would e.g. include the localization work I suggested, having a *separate* CVS containing all localized Wine Guides, and having automatically updated docu maintenance web pages for every language involved. So far there still is nobody who has stepped up to the plate of implementing such a database-driven web page framework... (I could complain here again, but this time I better won't :) -- Andreas MohrStauferstr. 6, D-71272 Renningen, Germany Tel. +49 7159 800604http://mohr.de.tt
Re: So lets say we do it
On October 31, 2002 03:09 pm, Andreas Mohr wrote: Well, that maintenance would e.g. include the localization work I suggested, having a *separate* CVS containing all localized Wine Guides, and having automatically updated docu maintenance web pages for every language involved. But this is probably a bit too much. I mean, yeah, would be great to have the guides localized, and what not, but that's a _lot_ of work, and we don't seem to be able to maintain the English ones, let alone other languages. Localizing the guides right now would just compound the problem by just ending up with more unmaintained documentation. What would be more productive, at this point, is a clear, and focused TODO list for the current documentation, broken down into two sections: 1. What is out of date (and needs fixing) 2. What is missing (and needs writing) Now, you being the guy that know the docs best, ..., eh, ..., maybe you can help create such a list ;) Once it's done, maybe people will start picking an item at a time, etc. What do ya say? -- Dimi.
Re: So lets say we do it
On October 31, 2002 03:11 pm, Andreas Mohr wrote: Why, the current rate is avalanche-like ;) I'm growing ever more astonished about the increase in wine-patches per day... Same here. It's quite amazing! But can we sustain the rate for a year? But of course you're sorta right, we're still quite far off the mark. Yes, but it's been my experience that there's nothing like a good, focused TODO list to get people working on what's needed. And this is were I'm aiming with these emails... -- Dimi.
Re: So lets say we do it
On Thu, Oct 31, 2002 at 03:17:26PM -0500, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote: On October 31, 2002 03:09 pm, Andreas Mohr wrote: Well, that maintenance would e.g. include the localization work I suggested, having a *separate* CVS containing all localized Wine Guides, and having automatically updated docu maintenance web pages for every language involved. But this is probably a bit too much. I mean, yeah, would be great to have the guides localized, and what not, but that's a _lot_ of work, and we don't seem to be able to maintain the English ones, let alone other languages. Localizing the guides right now would just compound the problem by just ending up with more unmaintained documentation. And here AGAIN I have to disagree with you :) Given a *correct* and *working* framework, the docu simply would not be rendered unmaintained. Every change in the English docu would keep sitting (or rotting) on the various foreign language translation pages until this change has been applied to the respective language and the item has been closed. (OK, if you're overly pessimistic, then you'll probably tell me now that nobody will ever work on updating foreign languages, despite of such a marvellous infrastructure) What would be more productive, at this point, is a clear, and focused TODO list for the current documentation, broken down into two sections: 1. What is out of date (and needs fixing) 2. What is missing (and needs writing) Now, you being the guy that know the docs best, ..., eh, ..., maybe you can help create such a list ;) Once it's done, maybe people will start picking an item at a time, etc. What do ya say? Hmm, WAIT... didn't I say somewhere that I wouldn't work on docu any more ? I guess I didn't :) I could do that, but don't count on it, since my time is limited. (heck, I can't even keep up with the Wine mails that keep flooding my inbox !) (not to mention that it's me today who's to blame quite a lot for this mail situation today :) -- Andreas MohrStauferstr. 6, D-71272 Renningen, Germany Tel. +49 7159 800604http://mohr.de.tt
Re: So lets say we do it
On October 31, 2002 03:33 pm, Andreas Mohr wrote: (OK, if you're overly pessimistic, then you'll probably tell me now that nobody will ever work on updating foreign languages, despite of such a marvellous infrastructure) No, all I am saying is that's a lot of effort, for not that huge gain. IMO there is a lot to gain on the docs front by just working on the English docs, that's all. And it's not nearly as complicated, requires no infrastructure, etc. Once we tackle that, we can start thinking about localizing the docs (even though I would suggest waiting for things to stabilize, since it's a lot of work, and there's no point in tracking a rapidly changing Wine in a gazillion languages). Hmm, WAIT... didn't I say somewhere that I wouldn't work on docu any more ? I guess I didn't :) Oh, come on man! Pretty please? :))) -- Dimi.
Re: So lets say we do it
On Thu, Oct 31, 2002 at 03:20:34PM -0500, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote: On October 31, 2002 03:11 pm, Andreas Mohr wrote: Why, the current rate is avalanche-like ;) I'm growing ever more astonished about the increase in wine-patches per day... Same here. It's quite amazing! But can we sustain the rate for a year? I might be willing to bet that it might actually increase even more, now that more and more companies go The Linux Way... But of course you're sorta right, we're still quite far off the mark. Yes, but it's been my experience that there's nothing like a good, focused TODO list to get people working on what's needed. And this is were I'm aiming with these emails... Very true. We should make sure that the Contribute page links more or less directly to one page listing the requirements for a specific version (that'd be the Bugzilla 0.9 and 1.0 pages, I guess). But AFAIK the Contribute page already does this. BTW, I just updated the Contribute page quite a lot. -- Microsoft Licensing 6.0: Pay us now in advance, so that we can own you later.
Re: So lets say we do it
On October 31, 2002 03:58 pm, Andreas Mohr wrote: BTW, I just updated the Contribute page quite a lot. Very cool. You see, there's a lot of good stuff on the site, but it's kinda hidden. We need to bring some of it (like screenshots, FAQ, contributing) more to the front, so people stumble upon it, rather then search for it. But I should stop talking, and doing more work. :) -- Dimi.
Re: So lets say we do it
On October 31, 2002 04:18 pm, Andreas Mohr wrote: Bl**dy b*tch ! :-)) Listen man, I don't like that! I mean, what's up with the stars?!? :))) First you annoy the h*ll out of people, and then you behave as if nothing had ever happened and the weather was fantastic... ;-) Oh, Andy dude, you are the toughest guy on Wine-devel, crushing poor newbies without remorse. And now, all of a sudden, you become this sensible, in-touch-with-your-feelings guy?!? ;-) (ROTFL) (BTW: the weather here is awful :) See, and you blame poor me... :P -- Dimi.
Re: So lets say we do it
On Thu, Oct 31, 2002 at 04:16:45PM -0500, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote: On October 31, 2002 03:58 pm, Andreas Mohr wrote: BTW, I just updated the Contribute page quite a lot. Very cool. You see, there's a lot of good stuff on the site, but it's kinda hidden. We need to bring some of it (like screenshots, FAQ, contributing) more to the front, so people stumble upon it, rather then search for it. But I should stop talking, and doing more work. :) See ? Maybe my medicine finally starts to take effect :) I wouldn't be 100% against placing a Screenshot link on the main page - it's a mere 99% only. But with the current menu infrastructure, I'm about 150% against it. If we added a separate Screenshots menu item (which, by the way, I don't think is needed, since we do have that nice About page), then the whole page would grow overly long. So either adapt the main page menu items' size as a whole, or shut up and properly adapt About instead ;) That's my opinion on it at least.
Re: So lets say we do it
On October 31, 2002 04:26 pm, Andreas Mohr wrote: I wouldn't be 100% against placing a Screenshot link on the main page - it's a mere 99% only. But with the current menu infrastructure, I'm about 150% against it. If we added a separate Screenshots menu item (which, by the way, I don't think is needed, since we do have that nice About page), then the whole page would grow overly long. Agreed. I say, let's get some of the content in shape, and worry about the form a wee bit later. BTW, any web-design guys around, that may want to take on this task? -- Dimi.
Re: So lets say we do it
On Thu, 2002-10-31 at 15:30, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote: Agreed. I say, let's get some of the content in shape, and worry about the form a wee bit later. BTW, any web-design guys around, that may want to take on this task? Oh pick ME ME ME! :-) Wait a minute, I'm already in charge of that. Must have been slacking off again. Here's my idea. On the front page, add a new box above the WNN box, below the Latest Wine release box. This box would be a random screenshot pulled from the AppDB, (or a predefined list of available screenshots). I can whip up a new page/section/what have you called Screenshots. This requires a new button for the front page. It should be linked to on the About page, and the screenshots page links back to the About page. A little cross referencing if you will. Does this work for anyone. I can probably do this during the weekend in my off hours. I don't volunteer my weekends often, so speak now. -- __ _WebGeek/SysAdmin CodeWeavers -= http://www.codeweavers.com | \| |_ __ ___ __ __ _ _ _ -= http://www.dracowulf.com |/ -_) | | / ' \/ _` | ' \ -= [EMAIL PROTECTED] |_|\_\___|\_/\_/|_|_|_\__,_|_||_| -= ICQ: 1842980 Yahoo: laxdragon
Re: So lets say we do it
On Thu, Oct 31, 2002 at 04:05:21PM -0600, Jeremy Newman wrote: On Thu, 2002-10-31 at 15:30, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote: Agreed. I say, let's get some of the content in shape, and worry about the form a wee bit later. BTW, any web-design guys around, that may want to take on this task? Oh pick ME ME ME! :-) Wait a minute, I'm already in charge of that. Must have been slacking off again. Here's my idea. On the front page, add a new box above the WNN box, below the Latest Wine release box. This box would be a random screenshot pulled from the AppDB, (or a predefined list of available screenshots). I can whip up a new page/section/what have you called Screenshots. This requires a new button for the front page. It should be linked to on the About page, and the screenshots page links back to the About page. A little cross referencing if you will. Does this work for anyone. I can probably do this during the weekend in my off hours. Two words: Earth-shattering idea ! :-) (oh wait, there's just been an earthquake in Italy :-\) That's a very good proposal. I guess all that's left for us to do is to make sure About looks terrib^H^Hific :) -- My attitude is, everybody should try competing with Microsoft once in their life. Once. - Marc Andreessen, former Netscape lead employee, in a browser wars interview
Re: So lets say we do it
On October 31, 2002 05:05 pm, Jeremy Newman wrote: Oh pick ME ME ME! :-) OK mister, you're on! :) I don't volunteer my weekends often, so speak now. IMO we need to reorganize the front page a bit more than that. Namely: -- the big Navigation box is wasted space, because 1. It contains items everybody expects as a left-hand menu 2. Contains no real content -- while pretty, the layout is a non-standard, and is a wee bit too far away from the least surprise principle -- the news/announcements need a bit more space So here is my suggestion: 1. Have a left-hand navigation menu, as follows: Home About Download Documentation Development Mailing Lists Screenshots Look at http://www.gimp.org. It's not the nicest, but the home page is simple, and has a link to almost all relevant info: Download, Mailing Lists, FAQ, Docs, Screenshots, etc. You need only *one* click. In our site, you need 3-4 clicks, scrolling, etc. Vast majority of people don't have such a long attention span. Look for example at http://mesa3d.sourceforge.net/, it's not pretty, but you can get to most stuff in *one* click. 2. The main area (in the middle) should be Announcements We should have there the last 2-3 announcements, and at the end a link to the archives. Each announcement gets a bold title, and a few lines of text. Here we'll have Wine releases (the few lines of text will contain the What's New stuff), WWN releases (for which we can lists the story titles), etc. I'll stop here. What do you think? -- Dimi.
Re: So lets say we do it
On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote: [...] IMO we need to reorganize the front page a bit more than that. Namely: -- the big Navigation box is wasted space, because 1. It contains items everybody expects as a left-hand menu 2. Contains no real content -- while pretty, the layout is a non-standard, and is a wee bit too far away from the least surprise principle -- the news/announcements need a bit more space I pretty much agree. I will also add a me too concerning screenshots: this is the first thing I look for and I'm pretty disappointed if I don't see any. So here is my suggestion: 1. Have a left-hand navigation menu, as follows: Home About Download Documentation Development Mailing Lists Screenshots I proposed something similar in task 608 but did not have much feedback (though it was mentioned a couple of times before). Here's my menu tree proposal: Top Level - 1. About 2. News 3. Screenshots 4. Application Database 5. How to contribute 6. Download 7. Development 8. Documentation 9. Bugs 10. Forums The goal is to make important items like the Application Database, Screenshots, or How to contribute, more visible, and to make it easier to locate where things are. I would also modify the home page to: - display the introduction to Wine (included from the About section 1.1.) - display a (small) screenshot (worth 10.000 words). Newman's idea is pretty good for that. - the Home page can be accessed by clicking on the WineHQ icon (but I'm not opposed to adding a menu entry) Complete menu tree -- You will note that there are sometimes 3 levels of 'menus'. The third level would most likely not actually be a menu but just sections on the page and an entry in the relevent table of content (task 605). I just included them here to clearly show where each item in the web site goes. 1. About 1.1. Intro 1.2. Why Wine 1.3. Wine myths debunked 1.4. Technical details 1.5. Status (or move this to the How to contribute or Development section?) 1.6. History 1.7. Alternatives 1.8. Who's who 1.9. Wine companies 1.10. Community 1.11. Contacts 1.12. Legal 2. News 2.1. Latest Wine release 2.2. Latest WWN 2.3. WWN back issues 2.4. Press 3. Screenshots General screenshots, typically full desktops. Also point people to the Application Database. 4. Application Database 5. How to contribute 5.1. Application maintainer 5.2. Bug triage 5.3. Web site maintainance 5.4. Development 5.4.1. Wine 0.9.0 task list 5.4.2. The Tasklist (bug 395) 5.4.3. The FIXMEs (bug 455) 5.4.4. The Tasklets (bug 406) 5.4.5. The most wanted bugs (a Bugzilla query returning bugs with the most votes) 5.6. Write regression tests 5.5. Support Wine-based products 6. Download 6.1. Binary Packages 6.2. Source tar files 6.3. Source tars for CVS 6.4. LXR 6.5. CVS 6.6. CVS Web 6.7. Other CVS modules (web site) 7. Development 7.1. Mostly references to the Wine Developpers Guide which is where most of the information should be. The distinction between this and the Wine Developpers Guide is that the guide should be more about general principles and less about which specific web server to connect to (although that's more a download issue anyway). 7.2. References Pointers to online resources (Win32 documentation, X doc, etc.) useful to Wine developpers. 8. Documentation 8.1. User Guide 8.2. Howto 8.3. FAQ 8.4. Developer Guide 8.5. API Documentation 8.6. Packager Guide 8.7. How to get commercial support 9. Bugs (Bugzilla) 10. Forums 10.1. Mailing lists 10.2. Newsgroup 10.3. IRC channel Other relevant Web Site tasks - * 597 - How to get the web site files * 598 - Update the Who's Who * 600 - Add a Site Map * 601 - Add drop-down menus * 605 - Add 'tables of contents' * 607 - Add screenshots * 608 - Reorganize the Web site -- Francois Gouget [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://fgouget.free.fr/ Utilisateur (nom commun) : Mot utilisé par les informaticiens en lieu et place d'idiot.
Re: So lets say we do it
Andreas Mohr wrote: On Thu, Oct 31, 2002 at 03:07:15PM -0500, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote: On October 31, 2002 03:00 pm, Andreas Mohr wrote: Not yet too late for another 'Halloween' release though ;) Yep... ...next year ! ;) I don't want to jinx it, but at the rate we're going, we'd be lucky to do a 1.0 'Halloween' release next year :/ Why, the current rate is avalanche-like ;) I'm growing ever more astonished about the increase in wine-patches per day... But of course you're sorta right, we're still quite far off the mark. (Jumping in a little late) I seem to remember someone once posted a graph of the growth in wine source (I think it was a line count). Seems to me it is about time for another one.
Re: So lets say we do it
Once we have that we need to make sure we have suitable defaults to allow running at least the drives/paths control panel without registry files at all. We also need the Wine dlls to register themselves instead of having to merge winedefault.reg by hand. Then it should be possible to write a .inf script to setup a new Wine install automatically from scratch. Once upon a time (well okay, in July) I said I would make the Wine dlls self-registerable, and now I've gone and created bug #1117 to remind me to do it. I plan to use the (mostly-)static-array-driven, dumb but generic, regsvr_register and regsvr_unregister functions that are currently situated in dlls/comcat. I don't like the idea of copying around exact duplicates of regsvr.[hc], but they seem too small to put in their own libwine_regsvr.so; what do you recommend?
Re: So lets say we do it
On October 31, 2002 05:05 pm, Jeremy Newman wrote: Oh pick ME ME ME! :-) OK mister, you're on! :) IMO we need to reorganize the front page a bit more than that. That's a little more than a weekend of work. Here's what I will do. I will start a new design, I will put it up at: http://lostwages.winehq.org. A very rough draft of the home page alone with new nav should be online late (very very late) sunday night, pending real life (TM) does not get in the way. I'll probably even start a new branch in the winehq_com cvs tree for this. -- _ _WebGeek/NetAdmin CodeWeavers -= http://www.codeweavers.com | \| |_ __ ___ __ __ _ _ _ -= http://jnewman.codeweavers.com | .` / -_) V V / ' \/ _` | ' \ -= mailto:jnewman;codeweavers.com |_|\_\___|\_/\_/|_|_|_\__,_|_||_| -= ICQ: 1842980 Yahoo: laxdragon
Re: So lets say we do it
Alexandre Julliard wrote: Dimitrie O. Paun writes: So the 5% left, install wine, install a Win-app, and play around. Great, it works! You forgot a few things here: First it doesn't even start because they don't have a config file. OK, they copy one from somewhere, it doesn't work because the drives are wrong. The config file that you guy's at Codeweavers use works vey well. I have not seen anyone cry about drives being wrong on the codeweavers Discuss list !! And if there is someone with a strange set-up they could read a DOC on how to correct the problem. Most people ask about how to set version to win98 since --version was removed. Then they don't have the proper registry (winedefault.reg? what's that?) You could look at this registry : http://www.franksworld.net/wine/files/wineregistry.tgz I am in no way saying this is 100% correct but it is at least a good start :) Tom Then they finally manage to run the installer but it puts stuff in RunOnce that never gets run so the app doesn't work. Then they finally make the app run but can't print anything. And when they ask for help they get told to fight the FAQ-O-Matic crap to maybe finally find an answer telling them they are an idiot. So no, I'm not going to make a general public release just yet...
Re: So lets say we do it
On October 31, 2002 11:47 pm, Jeremy Newman wrote: Here's what I will do. I will start a new design, I will put it up at: http://lostwages.winehq.org. A very rough draft of the home page alone with new nav should be online late (very very late) sunday night, pending real life (TM) does not get in the way. Excellent. This is what we need, a little bit of experimentation is needed here. BTW, how can I contribute to the WineHQ CVS? Can I get access to it? -- Dimi.
Re: So lets say we do it
On October 31, 2002 07:00 pm, Francois Gouget wrote: This is a good start. Here are my comments, based on the following principles: -- while I appreciate (as a geek) the logical nesting of topics, I think they should be organized more around usage patterns. A common topic should be accessible with one click, a obscure one, with two. -- keep things simple, for areas that are of general use (i.e. used frequently by non-developers) 1. About 1.1. Intro 1.2. Why Wine 1.3. Wine myths debunked 1.4. Technical details 1.5. Status (or move this to the How to contribute or Development section?) I think this one should be top-level. I was fascinated for a long while by http://www.gnustep.org/information/progress.html, and I kept visiting the site frequently to monitor their progress. 1.6. History 1.7. Alternatives 1.8. Who's who BTW, this one needs updating *badly*. 1.9. Wine companies 1.10. Community 1.11. Contacts 1.12. Legal This menu should show as About on top level, and when clicked, should expand to the above structure. This is because it's long, and the items here (apart from Status) don't merit front-page status. 2. News 2.1. Latest Wine release 2.2. Latest WWN 2.3. WWN back issues 2.4. Press Hopefully we can fit all this in one page, with a clever 1,2 box layout, and we can drop the submenus. 3. Screenshots General screenshots, typically full desktops. Also point people to the Application Database. 4. Application Database 5. How to contribute 5.1. Application maintainer 5.2. Bug triage 5.3. Web site maintenance 5.4. Development 5.4.1. Wine 0.9.0 task list 5.4.2. The Tasklist (bug 395) 5.4.3. The FIXMEs (bug 455) 5.4.4. The Tasklets (bug 406) 5.4.5. The most wanted bugs (a Bugzilla query returning bugs with the most votes) 5.6. Write regression tests 5.5. Support Wine-based products This should expand as About on click only. The 5.4.x items are a bit too deeply buried, considering that they are high visibility. Maybe we can link to 5.4 from the Status page. Or even better, maybe we can make 5.4 a top-level item, and rename it Todo. 6. Download 6.1. Binary Packages 6.2. Source tar files 6.3. Source tars for CVS 6.4. LXR 6.5. CVS 6.6. CVS Web 6.7. Other CVS modules (web site) Too complex. I think only 6.1, and 6.2 belong here, and not as submenus, but part of the page. The rest should be moved under 7. 7. Development 7.1. Mostly references to the Wine Developers Guide which is where most of the information should be. The distinction between this and the Wine Developers Guide is that the guide should be more about general principles and less about which specific web server to connect to (although that's more a download issue anyway). 7.2. References Pointers to online resources (Win32 documentation, X doc, etc.) useful to Wine developers. 8. Documentation 8.1. User Guide 8.2. Howto 8.3. FAQ 8.4. Developer Guide 8.5. API Documentation 8.6. Packager Guide 8.7. How to get commercial support 9. Bugs (Bugzilla) What about this: 8. Support 8.1 FAQ 8.2 Howto 8.3 Bugzilla 8.4 Commercial support 9. Documentation 9.1 User Guide 9.2 Developer Guide 9.3 Packager Guide 9.4 API Docs 10. Forums 10.1. Mailing lists 10.2. Newsgroup 10.3. IRC channel -- Dimi.
Re: So lets say we do it
On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Dimitrie O. Paun wrote: On October 31, 2002 11:47 pm, Jeremy Newman wrote: Here's what I will do. I will start a new design, I will put it up at: http://lostwages.winehq.org. A very rough draft of the home page alone with new nav should be online late (very very late) sunday night, pending real life (TM) does not get in the way. Excellent. This is what we need, a little bit of experimentation is needed here. Yep, it can only help :-) BTW, how can I contribute to the WineHQ CVS? Can I get access to it? See http://www.winehq.com/development/ Check out Winehq_com. Actually you can also get the same info there: http://www.winehq.com/download/ Argh! Duplication, bad, bad, bad (597). -- Francois Gouget [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://fgouget.free.fr/ The software said it requires Win95 or better, so I installed Linux.
