Re: [WISPA] Vuze / Comcast / Peer to Peer / FCC
Just out of curiousity, all of you who have AP problems because of bit torrent: what APs are you using? Thanks, Clint On Nov 22, 2007 11:41 PM, Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I put a connection limit on all traffic from ports 1024-65535, because the torrent has to use a connection somewhere and usually the bit progs are set to use somewhere above port 1024. That will not help on UDP or the ones using port 80. I have another connection limit set higher on all tcp connections to try to help combat the port 80 users. -- Original Message -- From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:15:14 -0800 Thats my point. I use star and it has all the layer 7 stuff built into the cpe. I can control to my hearts content. Generaly I put a switch in or bridge the linksys wifi router and take control there. If I had to and I did one situation, I can give daddy one set of rules and little abusing johnny another. for the most part, I don't have too much to worry about, it's not being able to tightly control the encrypted stuff that is the issue. CHUCK PROFITO wrote: You are nuts or spoiled on 5 gig or have fiber stuffed up every tower. 1 P2P on a 2.4 rural ap opening 100+ connections will packet flood an ap in about 1 minute. 2.4 will only realistically deliver 5 megs per radio. 1 P2P uploading to 60 plus users will be slowed enough to bring the bits per packet way down, then the packet flood ensues. Now put six sectors on a tower, with 300+ subs, 10 megs of back haul, then add 6 P2P and on top of that add three or four bit torrent users with 50 or 60 connections each down loading the best movie ever from Netflix, and now your backhaul starts the flood too.. And you are 30 miles from the fiber head in. Yeah, right... Don't tell me not to shape the traffic. Chuck Profito 209-988-7388 CV-ACCESS, INC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providing High Speed Broadband to Rural Central California -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 6:42 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Vuze / Comcast / Peer to Peer / FCC Come on, you guys that sell slow broadband generaly don't have too much to worry about. It's not like if you got an ap that does 10 megs and you sell 50 512k subs that the one or three out of 20 running p2p is going to be very noticable. Try giving those 50 equal access to the full 10 megs and see what happens then, if you don't throttle the p2p. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, If your network can't handle a small amount of p2p traffic, you have bigger issues. :) Travis Microserv George Rogato wrote: How do you cap the encrypted stuff? Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, First let me say that we cap p2p traffic during the business day, but otherwise we let it run wide open. However, we sell our connections based on speed. Whatever they pay for is what they get... none of this burstable stuff, etc. If they want 512k, they pay for 512k. If they want 1meg, they pay for 1meg. The problem with bandwidth caps of xx gigs per month is that NOBODY else is doing it... not DSL, not Cable, not any of my wireless competitors, etc. Once you start putting that limitation on their connection, they will start switching to something that does not have caps. If you have bandwidth limits in place already, there is no need for the monthly limits. (This does not mean we allow 24x7 bandwidth usage, but we allow reasonable usage). Travis Microserv George Rogato wrote: I think the way to go is to be able to identify the various types of traffic and rate limit them. And once we can do this, then it's time to pull out the menu of various offerings we can provide. Want a 3 meg x 3 meg burstable connection with a sustained traffic rate of 1meg x 256k and bandwidth cap of x gigs, it's price a, want a higher something in your package, it's price b. Want something different, then it's price c. The sub can choose. Once they choose they know what they bought. Mark Nash wrote: This is a good debate. What you mention here, George, is something that's been on my mind for the last year or so. As Lingo/Slingbox/Netflix/Vonage/etc/etc/etc make $$$ off of our connections, where's our cut? The customer is paying for a connection, yes, but at what point do we start charging more as this content proliferates through our networks? Bandwidth is getting cheaper per meg, you can get a bigger pipe for less per meg, you can do things to lower the cost of bandwidth. However, that should give US a better cash flow model, so we're not so squeezed out that we feel like not providing service anymore to folks who
Re: [WISPA] Vuze / Comcast / Peer to Peer / FCC
Nope. I have it with Moto 900 Mhz AP's. Will completely lock it down to where it takes a minute or longer just to access it by telnet to reboot it. I can login to Mikrotik and kill all P2P connections and immediately access the 900 Mhz AP after the connections clear. -- Original Message -- From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 09:32:49 -0600 (CST) On Fri, 23 Nov 2007, Clint Ricker wrote: Just out of curiousity, all of you who have AP problems because of bit torrent: what APs are you using? It is anything that is 802.11 based (A, B or G) that would have trouble with this. Any polled system would not have this issue. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Vuze / Comcast / Peer to Peer / FCC
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007, Clint Ricker wrote: Just out of curiousity, all of you who have AP problems because of bit torrent: what APs are you using? It is anything that is 802.11 based (A, B or G) that would have trouble with this. Any polled system would not have this issue. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Non-paying Subs
And if you have a way to send them to a captive page that says the account has been restricted due to billing issues we have found that the respond even quicker. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Mark Nash wrote: Hey everyone. I've recently cleaned up alot of billing/past due issues. My main comment here is that it's amazing how responsive people are when you turn their connection off due to nonpayment. They are generally not upset because they know they haven't been paying. Don't be afraid to get in the habit of checking your billing and turning people off for nonpayment. It's expected. Mark Nash UnwiredOnline 350 Holly Street Junction City, OR 97448 http://www.uwol.net 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Vuze / Comcast / Peer to Peer / FCC
If WISPA is going to make an official statement I think it should be presented as: The ISP needs to be able to manage their internal network in a manner which allows them to provide a consistent quality of service to their customers. If we say p2p applications are bad now we will have to define and then defend what a p2p application is. Whereas if we say we need to be able to manage the network traffic characteristics on an individual and network wide basis we have covered what the root problem is without limiting the tools we use. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt wrote: I don't think he meant completely lock it up. I think he mean that a P2P sub seeding a torrent causes this. A good torrent is enough to cause major connectivity issues on 4 meg Canopy 900 AP. Does your 900 AP have a public IP? There is a known issue with HTTP requests locking up the units. I have mine with private IPs and firewalled off so only we can get to them. We don't have any lockup issues with Motorola APs. WISPA or someone needs to post some comments to FCC to counter this argument that ISP's should not be allowed to limit p2p. If ISP's are not allowed to curb the bandwidth these applications use the quality of service for all users will go down as the p2p applications suck up all the bandwidth and pps of the system, Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Non-paying Subs
Incidentally, my experience is like others have mentioned... you should make plans to be available when you turn them off, because they will be making contact. I have on more than one occasion had people show up at my door, cash in hand, within 20 minutes of me having redirected them, and I live in the middle of nowhere. :) WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Non-paying Subs
I have a web server that is set up on an internal IP address which has only one page which states that there is a problem with the billing on the account. The web server is set to give that page as the 404 (page not found) page. On my core router which is a mikrotik I have the following logic: If traffic is from a restricted IP and it is DNS then allow it If traffic is from a restricted IP and it is web traffic send it to captive web server. If traffic is from a restricted IP and not matching the above reject it. If you want the actual Mikrotik rules I'd be happy to send them along. This can also be done with iptables if you have a linux box acting as a router between your customers and the world. I'm sure most any stateful firewall/router will be able to do this sort of redirect. We use to just turn people off and it would work, but once we added the There is a problem... page we got a lot more people getting their bill caught up faster. I don't know if it is because they weren't sure if there was a computer/network issue rather than a billing issue or if it was just because it was a constant explicit reminder every time they tried to use the computer. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless D. Ryan Spott wrote: Hey Sam, want to elaborate? How do you do this? Thanks! ryan -Original Message- From: Sam Tetherow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: 11/23/07 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Non-paying Subs And if you have a way to send them to a captive page that says the account has been restricted due to billing issues we have found that the respond even quicker. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Mark Nash wrote: Hey everyone. I've recently cleaned up alot of billing/past due issues. My main comment here is that it's amazing how responsive people are when you turn their connection off due to nonpayment. They are generally not upset because they know they haven't been paying. Don't be afraid to get in the habit of checking your billing and turning people off for nonpayment. It's expected. Mark Nash UnwiredOnline 350 Holly Street Junction City, OR 97448 http://www.uwol.net 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Non-paying Subs
Using Iptables, it is fairly straightforward, and can be accomplished in Mikrotik as well. I set up rules in a separate chain to allow access to certain things, such as my payment server, DNS, and a couple of other things i wanted to let even the restricted people access but then direct all port 80 and 443 traffic (DstNAT) to my web server ip on port 88. The web server is set up to serve one page only at that virtualhost, but I think more importantly, it is also set up with ReDirect rules to catch all URI's and redirect them to the one page, and it is ALSO set up to instruct the browser to not cache those pages. e.g. http://yahoo.com/somthing/another/index.html is redirected (transparently.. their address bar still shows that they are at yahoo.com, but the page they see is my you are restricted page) as is http://yahoo.com/ or google.com, none of which gives a 404 error on my web server because of the ReWrite rules. However, my page is not stored in their browser cache, so that when I turn them back on, all they have to do is hit refresh and they immediately get the real page they were attempting to get in the first place, not my (cached) page. I also have a link to my payment gateway on the restricted page, and rules in ipchains to allow them to access it. Since I do NOT know who might be using whomever's computer, I do not specifically say on that page WHY they are restricted, as that might be a violation of the customer's privacy. It might be their visiting mother-in-law that was the first to see the you haven't paid your bill message. Instead, I have a list of several possible reasons why they are being restricted, including misconfiguration of their computer, spamming, worms, viruses, non-payment, I made a mistake, etc D. Ryan Spott wrote: Hey Sam, want to elaborate? How do you do this? Thanks! ryan -Original Message- From: Sam Tetherow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: 11/23/07 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Non-paying Subs And if you have a way to send them to a captive page that says the account has been restricted due to billing issues we have found that the respond even quicker. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Mark Nash wrote: Hey everyone. I've recently cleaned up alot of billing/past due issues. My main comment here is that it's amazing how responsive people are when you turn their connection off due to nonpayment. They are generally not upset because they know they haven't been paying. Don't be afraid to get in the habit of checking your billing and turning people off for nonpayment. It's expected. Mark Nash UnwiredOnline 350 Holly Street Junction City, OR 97448 http://www.uwol.net 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- John Vogel - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.vogent.net 620-754-3907 Vogel Enterprises, LLC Information Services Provider serving S.E. Kansas WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Vuze / Comcast / Peer to Peer / FCC
I don't think he meant completely lock it up. I think he mean that a P2P sub seeding a torrent causes this. A good torrent is enough to cause major connectivity issues on 4 meg Canopy 900 AP. Does your 900 AP have a public IP? There is a known issue with HTTP requests locking up the units. I have mine with private IPs and firewalled off so only we can get to them. We don't have any lockup issues with Motorola APs. WISPA or someone needs to post some comments to FCC to counter this argument that ISP's should not be allowed to limit p2p. If ISP's are not allowed to curb the bandwidth these applications use the quality of service for all users will go down as the p2p applications suck up all the bandwidth and pps of the system, Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Vuze / Comcast / Peer to Peer / FCC
I don't think he meant completely lock it up. I think he mean that a P2P sub seeding a torrent causes this. A good torrent is enough to cause major connectivity issues on 4 meg Canopy 900 AP. -Eric Eric Rogers wrote: Does your 900 AP have a public IP? There is a known issue with HTTP requests locking up the units. I have mine with private IPs and firewalled off so only we can get to them. We don't have any lockup issues with Motorola APs. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scottie Arnett Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 11:18 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Vuze / Comcast / Peer to Peer / FCC Nope. I have it with Moto 900 Mhz AP's. Will completely lock it down to where it takes a minute or longer just to access it by telnet to reboot it. I can login to Mikrotik and kill all P2P connections and immediately access the 900 Mhz AP after the connections clear. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Non-paying Subs
Hey Sam, want to elaborate? How do you do this? Thanks! ryan -Original Message- From: Sam Tetherow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: 11/23/07 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Non-paying Subs And if you have a way to send them to a captive page that says the account has been restricted due to billing issues we have found that the respond even quicker. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Mark Nash wrote: Hey everyone. I've recently cleaned up alot of billing/past due issues. My main comment here is that it's amazing how responsive people are when you turn their connection off due to nonpayment. They are generally not upset because they know they haven't been paying. Don't be afraid to get in the habit of checking your billing and turning people off for nonpayment. It's expected. Mark Nash UnwiredOnline 350 Holly Street Junction City, OR 97448 http://www.uwol.net 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Vuze / Comcast / Peer to Peer / FCC
Does your 900 AP have a public IP? There is a known issue with HTTP requests locking up the units. I have mine with private IPs and firewalled off so only we can get to them. We don't have any lockup issues with Motorola APs. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scottie Arnett Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 11:18 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Vuze / Comcast / Peer to Peer / FCC Nope. I have it with Moto 900 Mhz AP's. Will completely lock it down to where it takes a minute or longer just to access it by telnet to reboot it. I can login to Mikrotik and kill all P2P connections and immediately access the 900 Mhz AP after the connections clear. -- Original Message -- From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 09:32:49 -0600 (CST) On Fri, 23 Nov 2007, Clint Ricker wrote: Just out of curiousity, all of you who have AP problems because of bit torrent: what APs are you using? It is anything that is 802.11 based (A, B or G) that would have trouble with this. Any polled system would not have this issue. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Non-paying Subs
Hey everyone. I've recently cleaned up alot of billing/past due issues. My main comment here is that it's amazing how responsive people are when you turn their connection off due to nonpayment. They are generally not upset because they know they haven't been paying. Don't be afraid to get in the habit of checking your billing and turning people off for nonpayment. It's expected. Mark Nash UnwiredOnline 350 Holly Street Junction City, OR 97448 http://www.uwol.net 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Non-paying Subs
I usually look when I'm going to be in the office for a while and cut them off when I see them using it. Phone rings within a couple of minutes. Dave Hulsebus Portative Technologies Hey everyone. I've recently cleaned up alot of billing/past due issues. My main comment here is that it's amazing how responsive people are when you turn their connection off due to nonpayment. They are generally not upset because they know they haven't been paying. Don't be afraid to get in the habit of checking your billing and turning people off for nonpayment. It's expected. Mark Nash UnwiredOnline 350 Holly Street Junction City, OR 97448 http://www.uwol.net 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
