Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information
I oversubscribe 10/1. I try to keep it down to 30-35 subs per AP (mostly 900MHz=3mbps radios). Lets say I have only 2 streaming subs at any given time: 2x 2mbps = 4mbps. plus other regular traffic. The demand is only going to go up with time. Seems to me we need faster 900MHz radios if we want to stay in busines, and if Moto wants to stay in the 900 market. On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:14 PM, Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I deliver 100 mbps wholesale to many rural areas for $3-4K/month type of figure. That includes transport. And stastically, you can oversub it, even with streaming content. You are never going to have all 20 streaming movies all at the same time. I am willing to take the chance. That is how we are building out our network. - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up. So that could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could work if you had 50-100 on an AP. Ok, so you have 20 people on one AP pulling 2Meg each which is 40 meg stream. If you have just 3 towers like that, you will have 120Meg streaming. At $50/sub, you have 60*50 = $3k/month in revenue for those that are using that 120Meg. You'd NEVER get 120Meg delivered to rural America (at least not in MY area) for that kind of money. A DS3 here with 45Meg would be around $4500/month after you include the transport. What am I missing? Canopy isn't the answer...the question isn't JUST the last mile, but the business model overall. The problem CAN be solved at the last mile, but when people are demanding streaming services they will have to understand that $50 commodity service isn't the answer. I'd be happy to deliver ANYONE with a dedicated service level of 2,3 even 10M, but it won't be $50/month. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering* * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member* * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks* WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex
I guess you could argue that it would be better for Trango to make them with an alignment PIN, to have them only be able to go on one way, to prevent mistakes. I guess you could also argue, taht teh waveguide should be labeled for alignment, so documentation was not needed. But technically to be fair, its the installers faught, if they don't assemble something correctly. I will note... There was an error in the early rev 1 Giga manuals, that incorrectly labeled pictures of how to align which polarity. So if an unexperienced tech followed the directions, they'd do it backwards wrong. However, Trango quickly corrected the error in the manual. Use Rev2 manual. It was also worth noting that the demand for the radios was huge, and many people asked to receive their radios before the manuals were complete. Polarity positioning is not necessarilly intuitive. For example the hole looks like an oval. You'd think the long side would represent the polarity, but in actuallity its the short side that represents the polarity. The opposite of what you'd think. But again, this is not a flaw in the radio, this is an educational (new product learning curve) issue. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 8:00 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex One more quick rant... those waveguide pieces SUCK. They caused many problems (screws on them stripping out, or some tech installing them the wrong way before it was sent up the tower and installed so I when we went to align them it wouldn't work because the waveguide was twisted 90 degrees...) I don't understand why Trango did that... my really old PCom links had the waveguide built onto the dish... Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 5:43 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex Tom, Quick question, then my response... do all Apex's ship with the fiber port in them? I really have to bite my tounge... I don't want to get into what all happened (basically I don't want my thoughts made public and the customer I was working for to read them) but I was not impressed at all with the Trango Giga product... I just helped install nine links last week. All I did was install and configure the radios, so yes they said 256QAM at 3xx Meg... but I didn't get to test it with live data, etc. What I will say, the alignment LED is a gimmick. Give me a BNC connector hooked up to a voltmeter any day. First my voltmeter is going to read to decimals, which is very helpful aligning long links. Second, the LED is about worthless if the sun is shining on it, you have to cover it with your hands to read the numbers which was difficult on at least one link I was aligning. Third, positioning on some towers to align the link made reading the LED difficult. None of these issues are problems with my voltmeter, I simply just use a strip of electrical tape and tape it to the ODU where I want. One thing I did like, the handles on the ODU of the Giga. Made aligning 3ft dishes a bit easier... With all of that said, what is the price on the Apex now that the summer special is long over? Before jumping for Trango, I would encourage anyone to show me a current quote and to see if I can match it with Dragonwave... from what I understand I can come damn close :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:38 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Trango Apex Not sure how many of you have tried the new Trango Apexes yet, but I thought I'd share my recent experience OK 366mbps, 256QAM, Cost me much less than I was expecting. And it just freakin Worked! WooHoo! Man, I like this radio. I specificaly liked the fact that the all outdoor unit, comes with 3 ports, 1 fiber, 1 GigE, 1 out-of-band managemnet, and supports inband management on the GigE. What I thought was unique was that either of the two Ethernet ports could be used to provide the POE power input. And also optionally can just run stanrdard Electrical wire to the Molex connector instead if prefer. But I was extremely impressed at the flexibilty in options to install this. The alignment LED is also awesome, that is positioned in a convenient place and shows actual RSSI DB number, as it really speeds up install and made it possible for one person to accurately align it. Also note... The older Giga had some anoying firmware bugs last year in their Betas (typical of Beta), and I finally got around to upgrading to the latest firmwares. (I was 9 months overdue for the task)
Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex
Daniel, Quick question, then my response... do all Apex's ship with the fiber port in them? I don't know, I don't work for Trango's shipping department. Logically Every item has a price, and I'm sure Sale people factor in or out that price, when giving someone a best custom quote to meet their need. The APEX has an embedded SPF port with EVERY radio made. But its up to the buyer to determine what SPF transiever they get to insert in it. For me My Trango quote, included the fiber transiever. I really have to bite my tounge... I don't want to get into what all happened (basically I don't want my thoughts made public and the customer I was working for to read them) but I was not impressed at all with the Trango Giga product... I just helped install nine links last week. All I did was install and configure the radios, so yes they said 256QAM at 3xx Meg... but I didn't get to test it with live data, etc. Note... The Trango Giga is a totally different product than the APEX. They should not be treated as the same. For example, what features require reboots to change, how it handles adaptime modulation, etc. It saying... 256QAM 300mbps is not enough, to be certain you have a good link. I learned that the first 3 months workign with the Gigas, and any high capacity millimeterwave product. We have a whole slew of tests that we perform to verify performance and link quality. We never just trust that it works. With our APEX link, we put it up, and it worked flawlessly for us, at 366mbps. Testing a link is not always easy at 366mbps. Because the testing tools need to be able to test at that high a speed. What I will say, the alignment LED is a gimmick. Give me a BNC connector hooked up to a voltmeter any day. First my voltmeter is going to read to decimals, which is very helpful aligning long links. Second, the LED is about worthless if the sun is shining on it, you have to cover it with your hands to read the numbers which was difficult on at least one link I was aligning. Third, positioning on some towers to align the link made reading the LED difficult. In my experience, none of those above comments are true. The LED is a very bright LED, compared to any LED Voltmeter that I have ever used. The LED is as optimally positioned as possible. None of these issues are problems with my voltmeter, I simply just use a strip of electrical tape and tape it to the ODU where I want. Thats one way to get around the limitation of not having an LED on your unit. Volt meter, is also an easy way to do it, we used the Voltmeters for our PRoxim 60Ghz installs. But the difficulty in using teh VOltMeter is running out of hands. You have to hold the lead wires to the radio terminals some how. Its easy for a 1ft dish, but not so easy when alignign a 3ft dish. The dish needs to be loose enough to move, but not losse enough for the wind to move. It really helps to have BOTH hands free, when working with aligning the larger dishes. One thing I did like, the handles on the ODU of the Giga. Made aligning 3ft dishes a bit easier... What I don't like, is there is not a real good way to hoist/hook the large antennas up the tower. The only holes to wrap the rope around are holes that need screws through them eventually, or wrapping around the mount that results in it hanging in a different position than it is mounted. But I'm not aware of any other antenna/mount vendor that does it better. As a feature add, I'd like to see a seperate hole at the top of the mount, specifically made for the hoist rope to clip on. With all of that said, what is the price on the Apex now that the summer special is long over? Before jumping for Trango, I would encourage anyone to show me a current quote and to see if I can match it with Dragonwave... from what I understand I can come damn close :-) I won't talk price on list. But I can tell you that Dragonwave was not able to match the Trango price in my experience. Dragonwave came close, until we started adding on software licenses and Add-ons (like antennas and Hi-Power upgrades) Dragonwave also makes a very nice radio. And the Dragonwave platform has some unique advantages. Some people may be willing to pay more for those advantages. As well, Dragonwave has the advantage of the Channel (distributors/resellers) behind it, for those that prefer that. But in my opinion, on a straight hardware/performance/price comparison, the APEX appears to be the new Dragonwave killer. I really couldn't find any flaws in the APEX, yet. Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:38 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Trango Apex Not sure how many of you have tried the new Trango Apexes yet, but I thought I'd share my recent experience OK 366mbps, 256QAM, Cost me much less than I was
[WISPA] Antenna question
As Tom noted... why can't manufacturers put hardware on their devices to attach them to a rope, lanyard, etc. for you to lift the item and secure it during installation? If not dedicated hardware, what about a hole to insert reusable hardware for this purpose? Cheap to implement, very useful in the field. I'm afraid of it falling when holding a $7k Orthogon radio on a tower. It's not like my Nextel and will survive the fall! - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Daniel, My comment was primarilly based on a comparison to OEM boxes like (Mikrotik or any standard 802.11a mac). In my opinion, the Canopy does provide a near equivellent install experience, from the perspective of my previous comments, because it also has surveying ability. Originally, Trango has the benefit of a Dual Freq unit (5.3 and 5.8) built into one unit. Canopy did not. However, that is now a thing of the past for PtMP, since the new FCC rules requirign DFS killed that feature for Trango. Tlinks still have it. But the Trango had always had the one benefit of Dual Polarity antennas. We do jobs all the time where we need to get something done in 24 hours, wtih one tech. It helps to have the onsite tech install the AP side quickly, and then leave it to the office to pickthe best channel or polarity, while he is off to the Client side. Then when he gets to the client side, he can do what ever he needs to do, because the AP side can be changed, without having to go back to the AP site. Sometimes its not always clear what the best option is, until after the client side gets put up and passing traffic. The primary need is to have both polarities available on the AP side. This has always been a limit in 5.8Ghz, becaue 5.8Ghz Sector Dual POl antennas are so expensive. Trango's antenna has always been the secret to their success. Dual pol is becomming much less of a concern, as radios are becoming Tri-Band, as there are more channels to choose from before needing to try alternate polarities. For this reason, its good to see Canopy's newer faster OFDM products developing that potentially could offer the Canopy benefits to an OFDM product line. What I'm wondering iswill Canopy beable to keep the Canopy benefits (such as accurate surveying), or will they lose those features with their conversion to OFDM? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 8:14 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Tom, Can you please help me understand how that procedure is any different then Canopy except the software selectable polarity? My only experience with Trango SU's has been on the bench, and I really wasn't impressed (especially after I heard all of the bitching from the tower guys I worked with that did have to deal with them) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:11 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Many people have missed the boat on what the differenciating factor was for Trango Trango's value is not measured by throughput, but instead deployment methodology. Proceedure 1) Accept Customer Order. 2) Go Onsite for the First Time, or to teh Tower to deploy the AP side of needed. 3) Do a Survey Scan, (software imbedded in Radio), and listen for LEAST noisy channel, confident that it will hear ALL noise. 4) You now know how not to interfere with all your other inplace links, and the best option and alternate options for channel selection. 5) You now have the flexibilty to turn up teh 5.8G or 5.3G radio, or Verticle or Horizontal, or Long range Dish or short range panel. But what ever your need is to get a free usable channels, you ahve it right there with you, with every option to your advantage to use as needed. 6) All testing tools you need are right there in the Software to crtify performance. 7) You walk away from your first visit onsite, with a Check and your first Client live and running perfectly. Then there is 6 months later, when your customer calls with an outage. 1) You log in remotely 2) You do a link test. You do a survey scan. 3) You quickly understand exactly what you need to do to repair the link in the shortest time period possible. 4) You are empowered to make the changes on the fly remotely, with out the truck roll bneeded 99% of the time. 5) You are now on the phone getting praised for your amazing response time that your company uniquely delivers, instead of taking the cancellation notice that you would be taking had you not made the decission to use trango. Whether you are deploying a PtP Atlas or a PtMP system, its that same general model. Sure, its less advantageous now that the 5.3 has been discontinued for 5830 line, but my point is the model was there originally when WISPs made decissions to buy into the concept of Trango. My point is There are some really nice products evolving such as Ligowave, StarOS, MIkrotik, and the many others For example Teletronics jsut came out with a new 2 Ether 2 mPCI board also. And they offer speed and good value. But they are still missing the CORE basic feature set that Trango offered, to empower a WISP
Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
Most importantly, 6 months later it is still working. 5 years later it is still working. Thats because you deploy in Rural America. Try comming to DC, and you'll have a different opinion. When I started 8 years ago, 50% of the available channels at half my cell sites were Toast at Verticle Pol 5.8G. have yet to see any material difference or benefit to using Trango over Canopy. But I can show the converse. In the earlier years there were many reasons and benefit to Trango over Canopy. But today, that is no longer the case, Canopy evolved. Canopy Advantage is now a well rounded feature rich product. From whatI understood they also have a Horizontal only model now also. Right now, it all boils down to Dual Polarity, and how advantageous that the WISP considers that value, over Canopy's other unique features. To this day, I do not understand why more have not embrased the Dual Pole proposition, unless it was patent intellectual propery issues. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? I had the same question. The main difference is that we know before the roll in most cases the frequency and color code and if that ap is blocked by trees we generally have several others in different directions that the tech can switch to on the fly. Most importantly, 6 months later it is still working. 5 years later it is still working. On the few with problems the call center folks diagnose and fix the problem remotely. Only if the wind has caused a misalignment do we have to do a truck roll. I have yet to see any material difference or benefit to using Trango over Canopy. But I can show the converse. - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:14 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Tom, Can you please help me understand how that procedure is any different then Canopy except the software selectable polarity? My only experience with Trango SU's has been on the bench, and I really wasn't impressed (especially after I heard all of the bitching from the tower guys I worked with that did have to deal with them) Daniel White 3-dB Networks -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:11 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays? Many people have missed the boat on what the differenciating factor was for Trango Trango's value is not measured by throughput, but instead deployment methodology. Proceedure 1) Accept Customer Order. 2) Go Onsite for the First Time, or to teh Tower to deploy the AP side of needed. 3) Do a Survey Scan, (software imbedded in Radio), and listen for LEAST noisy channel, confident that it will hear ALL noise. 4) You now know how not to interfere with all your other inplace links, and the best option and alternate options for channel selection. 5) You now have the flexibilty to turn up teh 5.8G or 5.3G radio, or Verticle or Horizontal, or Long range Dish or short range panel. But what ever your need is to get a free usable channels, you ahve it right there with you, with every option to your advantage to use as needed. 6) All testing tools you need are right there in the Software to crtify performance. 7) You walk away from your first visit onsite, with a Check and your first Client live and running perfectly. Then there is 6 months later, when your customer calls with an outage. 1) You log in remotely 2) You do a link test. You do a survey scan. 3) You quickly understand exactly what you need to do to repair the link in the shortest time period possible. 4) You are empowered to make the changes on the fly remotely, with out the truck roll bneeded 99% of the time. 5) You are now on the phone getting praised for your amazing response time that your company uniquely delivers, instead of taking the cancellation notice that you would be taking had you not made the decission to use trango. Whether you are deploying a PtP Atlas or a PtMP system, its that same general model. Sure, its less advantageous now that the 5.3 has been discontinued for 5830 line, but my point is the model was there originally when WISPs made decissions to buy into the concept of Trango. My point is There are some really nice products evolving such as Ligowave, StarOS, MIkrotik, and the many others For example Teletronics jsut came out with a new 2 Ether 2 mPCI board also. And they offer speed and good value. But they are still missing the CORE basic feature set that Trango offered, to empower a WISP to manage its network and install process better. Other
