Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
Thanks. I'm also looking into InfoBlox, for my DNS conversions. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Kelley Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 12:04 AM To: fai...@snappydsl.net; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses If you are stuck - you can change your network topology a bit. 1. Do IPv4 internally using Internal Network addresses. 2. Only give the public IPv4 address to folks who pay for it meet ARIN justification for the IP (amazing how that helps quite a bit ;-) ) 3. Utilize a public IP for those Natted clients 4. Utilize a 6to4 tunnelbroker (unless you have your own IPv6 dual stack running.) both SixXs and HE.net offer this service and provide FREE BGP routing if needed as well. 5. Run your own 6to4Nat implementation. While its a little bit of a struggle to get there - you can do 1to1 Nat worse case - well technically IPv6 does not support NAT - so let us call it what it really is - it's a private tunnel. By building your own tunnel and using at minimum linux 2.6.22 or above (older kernel will simply not work) - you can utilize the iproute2 package and voila - your problems are solved (well it takes work... ) Cisco routers support automatic 6to4 ISATAP as does Vyatta and many other routers now. I did a posting recently to UBNT asking when we can expect IPv6 from them - asked for a drop dead date... sadly have not seen that yet ;-( instead got a coming soon - a few months response. One important note - there are disadvantages of 6to4 relays such as the probability of asymmetric routing so unless you know what your doing - stick with Sixxs (if based in Europe) or HE.net (if US based) as a broker. On the plus side - my tunnel from Hurricane Electric www.HE.net (free) is actually lower latency to some parts of the world than my IPv4 route and almost always less hops. We have some servers @ Linode, some in our own data center here in Ohio, some in Texas and others in the UK - and the IPv6 Tunnel does some wonders for latency and routing between them ;-) This may be due to the fact that HE is on of the top 10 (actually # 6) networks in regards to peering. Currently according to fixed orbit - HE.net has 1385 networks it peers with - (More than Sprint, More than Road Runner - More than Comcast... and are beat out only by a few others. (to note the top 10 are as follows:) #1 Level 3 with 2703 peers #2 Cogent with 2696 peers (and folks keep bashing them saying their peering sucks... go figure) #3 ATT with 2332 peers #4 MCI/Verizon with 2009 peers #5 Global Crossing with 1390 peers #6 - HE.net with 1385 peers #7 Qwest with 1377 peers #8 TW Telecom Holdings (not Time Warner Cable / Road Runner ) with 1326 peers #9 Sprint with 1316 peers # 10 Init 7 AG with 958 peers (note those are direct peers ) On Feb 8, 2011, at 5:56 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: Who says you have to do anything ? What is working stays working.. yeah if you need to put a new 1000 Wifi routers.. very likely then you will need to put up the ones that support IPv6 Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet Telecom On 2/8/2011 5:52 PM, Carl Shivers wrote: So what is the solution if you have 1000+ WiFi routers that don't support IPv6? Pretty penny to replace. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 12:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses There was a requirement to use with IP allocation. (would need more within 3 months, if not allocated, or something like that). There is a legal basis to make IP holders return IPs that they are not using, or will not use within X months. Selling it on the secondary market is not the intent of the ARIN original rules, regardless of what recent decissions ARIN may have made.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Mike Hammettwispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 11:57 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses Probably not directed towards ISPs, but to other organizations. http://fixedorbit.com/stats.htm http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space/ipv4-address-space.xml GE probably doesn't need 16M+ IPs. HP probably doesn't need 33M+ IPs. Ford probably doesn't need 16M+ IPs.. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 2/7/2011 10:34 AM, Matt wrote: No, it's not a real problem. I liken it to the exhaust of homesteads in the past century. You used to be able to go to a land office and ask for your 40 acres. Then they ran out. But you could still buy a farm from somebody who previously had
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
I am not sure I agree with the conclusion. I think we are going to see some new applications that use some of the things that IPv6 offers, like multi-cast and any-cast in ways we can not imagine, yet. When they do and the consumer demand comes, the SOHO router market will catch. ISPs better be ready. The biggest thing I see is NO MORE NAT. The XBox, PS3, WII, etc. all have there own public IPv6 IP. No more UPnP, NAT Type etc. And the worst part is P2P will work better having a public IP as well. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
Yes, it would appear we are going to have to build our networks to support what the customer wants rather than limit what they can do because our infrastructure won't support. On 2/8/2011 10:10 AM, Matt wrote: I am not sure I agree with the conclusion. I think we are going to see some new applications that use some of the things that IPv6 offers, like multi-cast and any-cast in ways we can not imagine, yet. When they do and the consumer demand comes, the SOHO router market will catch. ISPs better be ready. The biggest thing I see is NO MORE NAT. The XBox, PS3, WII, etc. all have there own public IPv6 IP. No more UPnP, NAT Type etc. And the worst part is P2P will work better having a public IP as well. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Scott Reed Owner NewWays Networking, LLC Wireless Networking Network Design, Installation and Administration Mikrotik Advanced Certified www.nwwnet.net (765) 855-1060 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
IPV6 will make Usage Based Billing even more important to implement. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications http://www.wavelinc.com P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 Sent from Microsoft Outlook -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Reed Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 10:21 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses Yes, it would appear we are going to have to build our networks to support what the customer wants rather than limit what they can do because our infrastructure won't support. On 2/8/2011 10:10 AM, Matt wrote: I am not sure I agree with the conclusion. I think we are going to see some new applications that use some of the things that IPv6 offers, like multi-cast and any-cast in ways we can not imagine, yet. When they do and the consumer demand comes, the SOHO router market will catch. ISPs better be ready. The biggest thing I see is NO MORE NAT. The XBox, PS3, WII, etc. all have there own public IPv6 IP. No more UPnP, NAT Type etc. And the worst part is P2P will work better having a public IP as well. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Scott Reed Owner NewWays Networking, LLC Wireless Networking Network Design, Installation and Administration Mikrotik Advanced Certified www.nwwnet.net (765) 855-1060 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ attachment: Kurt Fankhauser (kurt@wavelinc.com).vcf WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
The problem I see with ARIN right now is that ARIN is still controlled by the largest carriers, who own large pools with excess V4 IP space available. It is not to their benefit to preserve V4 space, when they control whats remaining. What it will mean is that many small providers will become enslaven to their upstream Tier1 providers. In my opinion this is an emergency situation, that the FCC or Feds should step in on. I'd hate to see the same thing happen to IPv4 space as happened to Domain Names, where horders extort the system to gain huge unfair profits. I recognize that large blocks are now gone. What I wonder is whether small blocks are still available at ARIN? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Fred Goldstein fgoldst...@ionary.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses At 2/7/2011 11:34 AM, Matt wrote: No, it's not a real problem. I liken it to the exhaust of homesteads in the past century. You used to be able to go to a land office and ask for your 40 acres. Then they ran out. But you could still buy a farm from somebody who previously had a homestead. Very few are going to give up there 'old' IP space without wanting a high price if at all. I know I won't, any one else going too? Like most ISP's we grow every year not shrink. I see this as a real problem. I imagine we will dual stack soon and when the pinch comes give lower tier users a NAT'ed IPv4 IP and a /48 or /64 of IPv6 space. I hate the idea of handing out NAT'ed IP space though. Too hard to tell who did what. My opinion is there should be a very hard push to IPv6. Who says anything about giving up old IP space? It's not chattel property. It is merely an identifier in a protocol header, used under a voluntary agreement to exchange traffic. It was given away for free; it can be taken back. The FCC has legal authority over the North American Numbering Plan in the US, which is the *name* space for telephones. Unlike the Internet, it's not voluntary, it's regulated. About a decade ago, they ordered Number Pooling to begin. Carriers who had prefix codes with unused or under-utilized thousands blocks had to return them. Carriers today still have to file semiannual reports on number utilization. Notice how area code splits suddenly slowed to a crawl in the early part of the last decade? Number pooling did it. This was not voluntary. Your unused blocks of numbers were Reclaimed. If IANA or the RIRs wanted to do this, they could. They could simply announce that HP no longer owns Net 16 (old DEC space acquired with Compaq), for instance, effective x date, and HP should stop using it. And Halliburton and Daimler-Benz and other large-block holders should also lose unneeded space and be told to renumber. And then they should ask BGP users to respect the new assignments. Since the Internet is *voluntary*, Uncle Sam has no say; the ISP community decides who is the real owner of the space. The lawyers will, of course, try to find a way to get involved, since IPv4 address blocks *can* now be resold (to qualified buyers), so the large-block owners might see this as taking away windfall profits that they might be able to make by selling those oversized blocks. IAB made their bed, and now they'll have to sleep in it. Whats bad is 99% percent of consumer wifi routers do not support IPv6. That is going to be a HUGE issue. A good reason to assume that anything of any interest to the general public will remain on IPv4 for the foreseeable future, and v6-only will be limited to narrow-interest activities. -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
There was a requirement to use with IP allocation. (would need more within 3 months, if not allocated, or something like that). There is a legal basis to make IP holders return IPs that they are not using, or will not use within X months. Selling it on the secondary market is not the intent of the ARIN original rules, regardless of what recent decissions ARIN may have made.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 11:57 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses Probably not directed towards ISPs, but to other organizations. http://fixedorbit.com/stats.htm http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space/ipv4-address-space.xml GE probably doesn't need 16M+ IPs. HP probably doesn't need 33M+ IPs. Ford probably doesn't need 16M+ IPs.. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 2/7/2011 10:34 AM, Matt wrote: No, it's not a real problem. I liken it to the exhaust of homesteads in the past century. You used to be able to go to a land office and ask for your 40 acres. Then they ran out. But you could still buy a farm from somebody who previously had a homestead. Very few are going to give up there 'old' IP space without wanting a high price if at all. I know I won't, any one else going too? Like most ISP's we grow every year not shrink. I see this as a real problem. I imagine we will dual stack soon and when the pinch comes give lower tier users a NAT'ed IPv4 IP and a /48 or /64 of IPv6 space. I hate the idea of handing out NAT'ed IP space though. Too hard to tell who did what. My opinion is there should be a very hard push to IPv6. Whats bad is 99% percent of consumer wifi routers do not support IPv6. That is going to be a HUGE issue. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
It is my understanding that many organizations held large allocations before the RIRs were formed. I wouldn't expect those allocations to be held to ARIN rules. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 2/8/2011 12:04 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote: There was a requirement to use with IP allocation. (would need more within 3 months, if not allocated, or something like that). There is a legal basis to make IP holders return IPs that they are not using, or will not use within X months. Selling it on the secondary market is not the intent of the ARIN original rules, regardless of what recent decissions ARIN may have made.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Mike Hammettwispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 11:57 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses Probably not directed towards ISPs, but to other organizations. http://fixedorbit.com/stats.htm http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space/ipv4-address-space.xml GE probably doesn't need 16M+ IPs. HP probably doesn't need 33M+ IPs. Ford probably doesn't need 16M+ IPs.. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 2/7/2011 10:34 AM, Matt wrote: No, it's not a real problem. I liken it to the exhaust of homesteads in the past century. You used to be able to go to a land office and ask for your 40 acres. Then they ran out. But you could still buy a farm from somebody who previously had a homestead. Very few are going to give up there 'old' IP space without wanting a high price if at all. I know I won't, any one else going too? Like most ISP's we grow every year not shrink. I see this as a real problem. I imagine we will dual stack soon and when the pinch comes give lower tier users a NAT'ed IPv4 IP and a /48 or /64 of IPv6 space. I hate the idea of handing out NAT'ed IP space though. Too hard to tell who did what. My opinion is there should be a very hard push to IPv6. Whats bad is 99% percent of consumer wifi routers do not support IPv6. That is going to be a HUGE issue. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:14, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net wrote: It is my understanding that many organizations held large allocations before the RIRs were formed. I wouldn't expect those allocations to be held to ARIN rules. They're not. If you follow ARIN politics, there's always a lot of lively discussion about how to handle legacy address holders, like what you describe. David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
It isn't ARIN, it is all the RIRs. And ARIN just go another /8 to divide up. That is a bunch of /22 or /23 networks. I don't think ARIN is controlled by anyone. From what I have seen in the last 6 months, they have some very strict rules and follow them. The rules do not seem to favor anyone, other than large blocks are quite expensive. The big blocks that you are referring to that are held by large organizations are usually the legacy blocks. The legacy blocks are not under direct ARIN control. Never, ever, would I want more Federal Government intervention. In following the ARIN mail lists, I am not at all concerned about legitimate requests getting addresses allocated to them. Check out this page for what they are using now: https://www.arin.net/knowledge/ip_blocks.html On 2/8/2011 12:37 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote: The problem I see with ARIN right now is that ARIN is still controlled by the largest carriers, who own large pools with excess V4 IP space available. It is not to their benefit to preserve V4 space, when they control whats remaining. What it will mean is that many small providers will become enslaven to their upstream Tier1 providers. In my opinion this is an emergency situation, that the FCC or Feds should step in on. I'd hate to see the same thing happen to IPv4 space as happened to Domain Names, where horders extort the system to gain huge unfair profits. I recognize that large blocks are now gone. What I wonder is whether small blocks are still available at ARIN? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Fred Goldsteinfgoldst...@ionary.com To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses At 2/7/2011 11:34 AM, Matt wrote: No, it's not a real problem. I liken it to the exhaust of homesteads in the past century. You used to be able to go to a land office and ask for your 40 acres. Then they ran out. But you could still buy a farm from somebody who previously had a homestead. Very few are going to give up there 'old' IP space without wanting a high price if at all. I know I won't, any one else going too? Like most ISP's we grow every year not shrink. I see this as a real problem. I imagine we will dual stack soon and when the pinch comes give lower tier users a NAT'ed IPv4 IP and a /48 or /64 of IPv6 space. I hate the idea of handing out NAT'ed IP space though. Too hard to tell who did what. My opinion is there should be a very hard push to IPv6. Who says anything about giving up old IP space? It's not chattel property. It is merely an identifier in a protocol header, used under a voluntary agreement to exchange traffic. It was given away for free; it can be taken back. The FCC has legal authority over the North American Numbering Plan in the US, which is the *name* space for telephones. Unlike the Internet, it's not voluntary, it's regulated. About a decade ago, they ordered Number Pooling to begin. Carriers who had prefix codes with unused or under-utilized thousands blocks had to return them. Carriers today still have to file semiannual reports on number utilization. Notice how area code splits suddenly slowed to a crawl in the early part of the last decade? Number pooling did it. This was not voluntary. Your unused blocks of numbers were Reclaimed. If IANA or the RIRs wanted to do this, they could. They could simply announce that HP no longer owns Net 16 (old DEC space acquired with Compaq), for instance, effective x date, and HP should stop using it. And Halliburton and Daimler-Benz and other large-block holders should also lose unneeded space and be told to renumber. And then they should ask BGP users to respect the new assignments. Since the Internet is *voluntary*, Uncle Sam has no say; the ISP community decides who is the real owner of the space. The lawyers will, of course, try to find a way to get involved, since IPv4 address blocks *can* now be resold (to qualified buyers), so the large-block owners might see this as taking away windfall profits that they might be able to make by selling those oversized blocks. IAB made their bed, and now they'll have to sleep in it. Whats bad is 99% percent of consumer wifi routers do not support IPv6. That is going to be a HUGE issue. A good reason to assume that anything of any interest to the general public will remain on IPv4 for the foreseeable future, and v6-only will be limited to narrow-interest activities. -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
So what is the solution if you have 1000+ WiFi routers that don't support IPv6? Pretty penny to replace. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 12:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses There was a requirement to use with IP allocation. (would need more within 3 months, if not allocated, or something like that). There is a legal basis to make IP holders return IPs that they are not using, or will not use within X months. Selling it on the secondary market is not the intent of the ARIN original rules, regardless of what recent decissions ARIN may have made.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 11:57 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses Probably not directed towards ISPs, but to other organizations. http://fixedorbit.com/stats.htm http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space/ipv4-address-space.xml GE probably doesn't need 16M+ IPs. HP probably doesn't need 33M+ IPs. Ford probably doesn't need 16M+ IPs.. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 2/7/2011 10:34 AM, Matt wrote: No, it's not a real problem. I liken it to the exhaust of homesteads in the past century. You used to be able to go to a land office and ask for your 40 acres. Then they ran out. But you could still buy a farm from somebody who previously had a homestead. Very few are going to give up there 'old' IP space without wanting a high price if at all. I know I won't, any one else going too? Like most ISP's we grow every year not shrink. I see this as a real problem. I imagine we will dual stack soon and when the pinch comes give lower tier users a NAT'ed IPv4 IP and a /48 or /64 of IPv6 space. I hate the idea of handing out NAT'ed IP space though. Too hard to tell who did what. My opinion is there should be a very hard push to IPv6. Whats bad is 99% percent of consumer wifi routers do not support IPv6. That is going to be a HUGE issue. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
Who says you have to do anything ? What is working stays working.. yeah if you need to put a new 1000 Wifi routers.. very likely then you will need to put up the ones that support IPv6 Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet Telecom On 2/8/2011 5:52 PM, Carl Shivers wrote: So what is the solution if you have 1000+ WiFi routers that don't support IPv6? Pretty penny to replace. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 12:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses There was a requirement to use with IP allocation. (would need more within 3 months, if not allocated, or something like that). There is a legal basis to make IP holders return IPs that they are not using, or will not use within X months. Selling it on the secondary market is not the intent of the ARIN original rules, regardless of what recent decissions ARIN may have made.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Mike Hammettwispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 11:57 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses Probably not directed towards ISPs, but to other organizations. http://fixedorbit.com/stats.htm http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space/ipv4-address-space.xml GE probably doesn't need 16M+ IPs. HP probably doesn't need 33M+ IPs. Ford probably doesn't need 16M+ IPs.. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 2/7/2011 10:34 AM, Matt wrote: No, it's not a real problem. I liken it to the exhaust of homesteads in the past century. You used to be able to go to a land office and ask for your 40 acres. Then they ran out. But you could still buy a farm from somebody who previously had a homestead. Very few are going to give up there 'old' IP space without wanting a high price if at all. I know I won't, any one else going too? Like most ISP's we grow every year not shrink. I see this as a real problem. I imagine we will dual stack soon and when the pinch comes give lower tier users a NAT'ed IPv4 IP and a /48 or /64 of IPv6 space. I hate the idea of handing out NAT'ed IP space though. Too hard to tell who did what. My opinion is there should be a very hard push to IPv6. Whats bad is 99% percent of consumer wifi routers do not support IPv6. That is going to be a HUGE issue. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
If you are stuck - you can change your network topology a bit. 1. Do IPv4 internally using Internal Network addresses. 2. Only give the public IPv4 address to folks who pay for it meet ARIN justification for the IP (amazing how that helps quite a bit ;-) ) 3. Utilize a public IP for those Natted clients 4. Utilize a 6to4 tunnelbroker (unless you have your own IPv6 dual stack running.) both SixXs and HE.net offer this service and provide FREE BGP routing if needed as well. 5. Run your own 6to4Nat implementation. While its a little bit of a struggle to get there - you can do 1to1 Nat worse case - well technically IPv6 does not support NAT - so let us call it what it really is - it's a private tunnel. By building your own tunnel and using at minimum linux 2.6.22 or above (older kernel will simply not work) - you can utilize the iproute2 package and voila - your problems are solved (well it takes work... ) Cisco routers support automatic 6to4 ISATAP as does Vyatta and many other routers now. I did a posting recently to UBNT asking when we can expect IPv6 from them - asked for a drop dead date... sadly have not seen that yet ;-( instead got a coming soon - a few months response. One important note - there are disadvantages of 6to4 relays such as the probability of asymmetric routing so unless you know what your doing - stick with Sixxs (if based in Europe) or HE.net (if US based) as a broker. On the plus side - my tunnel from Hurricane Electric www.HE.net (free) is actually lower latency to some parts of the world than my IPv4 route and almost always less hops. We have some servers @ Linode, some in our own data center here in Ohio, some in Texas and others in the UK - and the IPv6 Tunnel does some wonders for latency and routing between them ;-) This may be due to the fact that HE is on of the top 10 (actually # 6) networks in regards to peering. Currently according to fixed orbit - HE.net has 1385 networks it peers with - (More than Sprint, More than Road Runner - More than Comcast... and are beat out only by a few others. (to note the top 10 are as follows:) #1 Level 3 with 2703 peers #2 Cogent with 2696 peers (and folks keep bashing them saying their peering sucks... go figure) #3 ATT with 2332 peers #4 MCI/Verizon with 2009 peers #5 Global Crossing with 1390 peers #6 - HE.net with 1385 peers #7 Qwest with 1377 peers #8 TW Telecom Holdings (not Time Warner Cable / Road Runner ) with 1326 peers #9 Sprint with 1316 peers # 10 Init 7 AG with 958 peers (note those are direct peers ) On Feb 8, 2011, at 5:56 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: Who says you have to do anything ? What is working stays working.. yeah if you need to put a new 1000 Wifi routers.. very likely then you will need to put up the ones that support IPv6 Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet Telecom On 2/8/2011 5:52 PM, Carl Shivers wrote: So what is the solution if you have 1000+ WiFi routers that don't support IPv6? Pretty penny to replace. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 12:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses There was a requirement to use with IP allocation. (would need more within 3 months, if not allocated, or something like that). There is a legal basis to make IP holders return IPs that they are not using, or will not use within X months. Selling it on the secondary market is not the intent of the ARIN original rules, regardless of what recent decissions ARIN may have made.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Mike Hammettwispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 11:57 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses Probably not directed towards ISPs, but to other organizations. http://fixedorbit.com/stats.htm http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space/ipv4-address-space.xml GE probably doesn't need 16M+ IPs. HP probably doesn't need 33M+ IPs. Ford probably doesn't need 16M+ IPs.. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 2/7/2011 10:34 AM, Matt wrote: No, it's not a real problem. I liken it to the exhaust of homesteads in the past century. You used to be able to go to a land office and ask for your 40 acres. Then they ran out. But you could still buy a farm from somebody who previously had a homestead. Very few are going to give up there 'old' IP space without wanting a high price if at all. I know I won't, any one else going too? Like most ISP's we grow every year not shrink. I see this as a real problem. I imagine we will dual stack soon and when the pinch comes give lower tier users a NAT'ed IPv4 IP and a /48 or /64 of IPv6
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
Actually, I just got done reading the ARIN website notes on the topic. My bad... Still plenty of IPv4 space available for allocation in ARIN's pool. Just IANA ran out. Actually not true either. IANA just allocated the last pool, before they were required to only allocate smaller blocks equally between all RIRs, from the remaining pools. But I dont think it hurt to have a momentary panic, to remind us that IPv4 could run out before to long. I also didn;t mean any of my past statements to be a negative attack on ARIN current performance. I have no problems with it's leaders. However when ARIN's Pool is depleted, there will likely be much controversy on whats legal to re-assign IPs. A constant ongoing effort has occured to try to elect members of the board from diverse stakeholders, so ARIN is not only controlled by the Large Carriers owning the largest IP Blocks. And just like there was a war to own domain names, there will be an attempt to capitalize on IPv4 space in demand. People will exploit the opportunity if they can. The Blackmarket for IP space is a real possibilty. I can see it now BAckroom deals and auctions to encourage a transfer of IP space from one to the other. UNless ARIN makes rules to prevent it. Whether that is the case may be determined by how quickly ISPs and MAnufacturers fully embrace IPv6. Obviously if no one ends up needing IPv4 anymore, than it wont be a problem. We'll see. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Scott Reed sr...@nwwnet.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 5:21 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses It isn't ARIN, it is all the RIRs. And ARIN just go another /8 to divide up. That is a bunch of /22 or /23 networks. I don't think ARIN is controlled by anyone. From what I have seen in the last 6 months, they have some very strict rules and follow them. The rules do not seem to favor anyone, other than large blocks are quite expensive. The big blocks that you are referring to that are held by large organizations are usually the legacy blocks. The legacy blocks are not under direct ARIN control. Never, ever, would I want more Federal Government intervention. In following the ARIN mail lists, I am not at all concerned about legitimate requests getting addresses allocated to them. Check out this page for what they are using now: https://www.arin.net/knowledge/ip_blocks.html On 2/8/2011 12:37 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote: The problem I see with ARIN right now is that ARIN is still controlled by the largest carriers, who own large pools with excess V4 IP space available. It is not to their benefit to preserve V4 space, when they control whats remaining. What it will mean is that many small providers will become enslaven to their upstream Tier1 providers. In my opinion this is an emergency situation, that the FCC or Feds should step in on. I'd hate to see the same thing happen to IPv4 space as happened to Domain Names, where horders extort the system to gain huge unfair profits. I recognize that large blocks are now gone. What I wonder is whether small blocks are still available at ARIN? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Fred Goldsteinfgoldst...@ionary.com To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses At 2/7/2011 11:34 AM, Matt wrote: No, it's not a real problem. I liken it to the exhaust of homesteads in the past century. You used to be able to go to a land office and ask for your 40 acres. Then they ran out. But you could still buy a farm from somebody who previously had a homestead. Very few are going to give up there 'old' IP space without wanting a high price if at all. I know I won't, any one else going too? Like most ISP's we grow every year not shrink. I see this as a real problem. I imagine we will dual stack soon and when the pinch comes give lower tier users a NAT'ed IPv4 IP and a /48 or /64 of IPv6 space. I hate the idea of handing out NAT'ed IP space though. Too hard to tell who did what. My opinion is there should be a very hard push to IPv6. Who says anything about giving up old IP space? It's not chattel property. It is merely an identifier in a protocol header, used under a voluntary agreement to exchange traffic. It was given away for free; it can be taken back. The FCC has legal authority over the North American Numbering Plan in the US, which is the *name* space for telephones. Unlike the Internet, it's not voluntary, it's regulated. About a decade ago, they ordered Number Pooling to begin. Carriers who had prefix codes with unused or under-utilized thousands blocks had to return them. Carriers today still have to file semiannual reports
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
yup It is kinda like this A storm is coming - and all the quikymarts go to the local Acme, Kroger and Walmarts and purchase all the milk and bread. Now you have to go to the local quikymart if you want more IP's (well its almost that way but not just yet) On Feb 9, 2011, at 1:14 AM, Tom DeReggi wrote: when ARIN's Pool is depleted, there will likely be much controversy on whats legal to re-assign IPs. A constant ongoing effort has occured to try to elect members of the board from diverse stakeholders, so ARIN is not only controlled by the Large Carriers owning the largest IP Blocks. And just like there was a war to own domain names, there will be an attempt to capitalize on IPv4 space in demand. People will exploit the opportunity if they can. The Blackmarket for IP space is a real possibilty. I can see it now BAckroom deals and auctions to encourage a transfer of IP space from one to the other. UNless ARIN makes rules to prevent it. Whether that is the case may be determined by how quickly ISPs and MAnufacturers fully embrace IPv6. Obviously if no one ends up needing IPv4 anymore, than it wont be a problem. We'll see. _ Glenn Kelley | Principal | HostMedic |www.HostMedic.com Email: gl...@hostmedic.com Pplease don't print this e-mail unless you really need to. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
Nice post Glenn. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Glenn Kelley To: fai...@snappydsl.net ; WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 1:04 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses If you are stuck - you can change your network topology a bit. 1. Do IPv4 internally using Internal Network addresses. 2. Only give the public IPv4 address to folks who pay for it meet ARIN justification for the IP (amazing how that helps quite a bit ;-) ) 3. Utilize a public IP for those Natted clients 4. Utilize a 6to4 tunnelbroker (unless you have your own IPv6 dual stack running.) both SixXs and HE.net offer this service and provide FREE BGP routing if needed as well. 5. Run your own 6to4Nat implementation. While its a little bit of a struggle to get there - you can do 1to1 Nat worse case - well technically IPv6 does not support NAT - so let us call it what it really is - it's a private tunnel. By building your own tunnel and using at minimum linux 2.6.22 or above (older kernel will simply not work) - you can utilize the iproute2 package and voila - your problems are solved (well it takes work... ) Cisco routers support automatic 6to4 ISATAP as does Vyatta and many other routers now. I did a posting recently to UBNT asking when we can expect IPv6 from them - asked for a drop dead date... sadly have not seen that yet ;-( instead got a coming soon - a few months response. One important note - there are disadvantages of 6to4 relays such as the probability of asymmetric routing so unless you know what your doing - stick with Sixxs (if based in Europe) or HE.net (if US based) as a broker. On the plus side - my tunnel from Hurricane Electric www.HE.net (free) is actually lower latency to some parts of the world than my IPv4 route and almost always less hops. We have some servers @ Linode, some in our own data center here in Ohio, some in Texas and others in the UK - and the IPv6 Tunnel does some wonders for latency and routing between them ;-) This may be due to the fact that HE is on of the top 10 (actually # 6) networks in regards to peering. Currently according to fixed orbit - HE.net has 1385 networks it peers with - (More than Sprint, More than Road Runner - More than Comcast... and are beat out only by a few others. (to note the top 10 are as follows:) #1 Level 3 with 2703 peers #2 Cogent with 2696 peers (and folks keep bashing them saying their peering sucks... go figure) #3 ATT with 2332 peers #4 MCI/Verizon with 2009 peers #5 Global Crossing with 1390 peers #6 - HE.net with 1385 peers #7 Qwest with 1377 peers #8 TW Telecom Holdings (not Time Warner Cable / Road Runner ) with 1326 peers #9 Sprint with 1316 peers # 10 Init 7 AG with 958 peers (note those are direct peers ) On Feb 8, 2011, at 5:56 PM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: Who says you have to do anything ? What is working stays working.. yeah if you need to put a new 1000 Wifi routers.. very likely then you will need to put up the ones that support IPv6 Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet Telecom On 2/8/2011 5:52 PM, Carl Shivers wrote: So what is the solution if you have 1000+ WiFi routers that don't support IPv6? Pretty penny to replace. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 12:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses There was a requirement to use with IP allocation. (would need more within 3 months, if not allocated, or something like that). There is a legal basis to make IP holders return IPs that they are not using, or will not use within X months. Selling it on the secondary market is not the intent of the ARIN original rules, regardless of what recent decissions ARIN may have made.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Mike Hammettwispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 11:57 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses Probably not directed towards ISPs, but to other organizations. http://fixedorbit.com/stats.htm http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space/ipv4-address-space.xml GE probably doesn't need 16M+ IPs. HP probably doesn't need 33M+ IPs. Ford probably doesn't need 16M+ IPs.. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 2/7/2011 10:34 AM, Matt wrote
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
On 7 February 2011 02:49, Justin Wilson li...@mtin.net wrote: We are not out of IPv4 addresses. The unallocated pool is exhausted. There is a difference. Think of it in terms as water from a well. You have all of these people bringing water up from the well (the water is ipv4 addresses). These people are storing these addresses in buckets, bottles, etc. and distributing them to others. One day the well runs dry. This does not mean you are out of water because you have all these people out there who have bottled water they can sell to others. They just can't go back to the well and get more. What they have is what they have. As someone else said, the fat lady has not yet sung, but she is on stage and the curtain is being lifted. This is a very real problem and does need to be addressed. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
At 2/7/2011 08:01 AM, Jeremy Parr wrote: On 7 February 2011 02:49, Justin Wilson mailto:li...@mtin.netli...@mtin.net wrote: We are not out of IPv4 addresses. The unallocated pool is exhausted. There is a difference. Think of it in terms as water from a well. You have all of these people bringing water up from the well (the water is ipv4 addresses). These people are storing these addresses in buckets, bottles, etc. and distributing them to others. One day the well runs dry. This does not mean you are out of water because you have all these people out there who have bottled water they can sell to others. They just can't go back to the well and get more. What they have is what they have. As someone else said, the fat lady has not yet sung, but she is on stage and the curtain is being lifted. This is a very real problem and does need to be addressed. No, it's not a real problem. I liken it to the exhaust of homesteads in the past century. You used to be able to go to a land office and ask for your 40 acres. Then they ran out. But you could still buy a farm from somebody who previously had a homestead. The B-team kidz who developed IPv6 (if you're too young to remember the IPNG process in the 1990 time frame, don't attack my characterization) did not think much about transition, and forgot about compatibility. The resulting transition plan is dual stack, meaning that you need to run IPv4 until everyone is running IPv6. Since IPv4 necessarily outperforms the higher overhead IPv6, there's little reason to not use v4. Since you thus need v4 addresses anyway, the market will reallocate them, just as the market reallocated farmland. If there turns out to be some real scarcity in the future, then the price will rise, and IPv4 addresses will be used more efficiently (more NAT, more use of private address space, etc.), and more large-block holders will release some to the market. Funny how much Frame Relay got done with a 10-bit address space. -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
It will just turn into 1999 all over again with businesses everywhere worried they won't be able to use the Internet so they bring in high priced consultants to show them how to transition to IPV6. Sent from my iPhone4 On Feb 7, 2011, at 8:27 AM, Fred Goldstein fgoldst...@ionary.com wrote: At 2/7/2011 08:01 AM, Jeremy Parr wrote: On 7 February 2011 02:49, Justin Wilson li...@mtin.net wrote: We are not out of IPv4 addresses. The unallocated pool is exhausted. There is a difference. Think of it in terms as water from a well. You have all of these people bringing water up from the well (the water is ipv4 addresses). These people are storing these addresses in buckets, bottles, etc. and distributing them to others. One day the well runs dry. This does not mean you are out of water because you have all these people out there who have bottled water they can sell to others. They just can't go back to the well and get more. What they have is what they have. As someone else said, the fat lady has not yet sung, but she is on stage and the curtain is being lifted. This is a very real problem and does need to be addressed. No, it's not a real problem. I liken it to the exhaust of homesteads in the past century. You used to be able to go to a land office and ask for your 40 acres. Then they ran out. But you could still buy a farm from somebody who previously had a homestead. The B-team kidz who developed IPv6 (if you're too young to remember the IPNG process in the 1990 time frame, don't attack my characterization) did not think much about transition, and forgot about compatibility. The resulting transition plan is dual stack, meaning that you need to run IPv4 until everyone is running IPv6. Since IPv4 necessarily outperforms the higher overhead IPv6, there's little reason to not use v4. Since you thus need v4 addresses anyway, the market will reallocate them, just as the market reallocated farmland. If there turns out to be some real scarcity in the future, then the price will rise, and IPv4 addresses will be used more efficiently (more NAT, more use of private address space, etc.), and more large-block holders will release some to the market. Funny how much Frame Relay got done with a 10-bit address space. -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consultinghttp://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
Have to agree that we are not running out of IP space rather entering a new realm of how IPv4 space will be handled or traded going forward. Best, Brad From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Fred Goldstein Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 8:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses At 2/7/2011 08:01 AM, Jeremy Parr wrote: On 7 February 2011 02:49, Justin Wilson li...@mtin.net wrote: We are not out of IPv4 addresses. The unallocated pool is exhausted. There is a difference. Think of it in terms as water from a well. You have all of these people bringing water up from the well (the water is ipv4 addresses). These people are storing these addresses in buckets, bottles, etc. and distributing them to others. One day the well runs dry. This does not mean you are out of water because you have all these people out there who have bottled water they can sell to others. They just can't go back to the well and get more. What they have is what they have. As someone else said, the fat lady has not yet sung, but she is on stage and the curtain is being lifted. This is a very real problem and does need to be addressed. No, it's not a real problem. I liken it to the exhaust of homesteads in the past century. You used to be able to go to a land office and ask for your 40 acres. Then they ran out. But you could still buy a farm from somebody who previously had a homestead. The B-team kidz who developed IPv6 (if you're too young to remember the IPNG process in the 1990 time frame, don't attack my characterization) did not think much about transition, and forgot about compatibility. The resulting transition plan is dual stack, meaning that you need to run IPv4 until everyone is running IPv6. Since IPv4 necessarily outperforms the higher overhead IPv6, there's little reason to not use v4. Since you thus need v4 addresses anyway, the market will reallocate them, just as the market reallocated farmland. If there turns out to be some real scarcity in the future, then the price will rise, and IPv4 addresses will be used more efficiently (more NAT, more use of private address space, etc.), and more large-block holders will release some to the market. Funny how much Frame Relay got done with a 10-bit address space. -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consultinghttp://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
On 02/07/2011 09:40 AM, Jeremie Chism wrote: It will just turn into 1999 all over again with businesses everywhere worried they won't be able to use the Internet so they bring in high priced consultants to show them how to transition to IPV6. Not all of us are that high priced! :-) -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://store.wispgear.net/* Wired or Wireless Networks * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * ImageStream, Mikrotik and MORE! * *NOTE THE NEW PHONE NUMBER: 702-537-0979 * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
Definitely not directed at you butch. I just remember some of the guys from those days. Sent from my iPhone4 On Feb 7, 2011, at 10:05 AM, Butch Evans but...@butchevans.com wrote: On 02/07/2011 09:40 AM, Jeremie Chism wrote: It will just turn into 1999 all over again with businesses everywhere worried they won't be able to use the Internet so they bring in high priced consultants to show them how to transition to IPV6. Not all of us are that high priced! :-) -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://store.wispgear.net/* Wired or Wireless Networks * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * ImageStream, Mikrotik and MORE! * *NOTE THE NEW PHONE NUMBER: 702-537-0979 * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
No, it's not a real problem. I liken it to the exhaust of homesteads in the past century. You used to be able to go to a land office and ask for your 40 acres. Then they ran out. But you could still buy a farm from somebody who previously had a homestead. Very few are going to give up there 'old' IP space without wanting a high price if at all. I know I won't, any one else going too? Like most ISP's we grow every year not shrink. I see this as a real problem. I imagine we will dual stack soon and when the pinch comes give lower tier users a NAT'ed IPv4 IP and a /48 or /64 of IPv6 space. I hate the idea of handing out NAT'ed IP space though. Too hard to tell who did what. My opinion is there should be a very hard push to IPv6. Whats bad is 99% percent of consumer wifi routers do not support IPv6. That is going to be a HUGE issue. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
It has been addresses, it is called IPv6. On 2/7/2011 8:01 AM, Jeremy Parr wrote: On 7 February 2011 02:49, Justin Wilson li...@mtin.net mailto:li...@mtin.net wrote: We are not out of IPv4 addresses. The unallocated pool is exhausted. There is a difference. Think of it in terms as water from a well. You have all of these people bringing water up from the well (the water is ipv4 addresses). These people are storing these addresses in buckets, bottles, etc. and distributing them to others. One day the well runs dry. This does not mean you are out of water because you have all these people out there who have bottled water they can sell to others. They just can't go back to the well and get more. What they have is what they have. As someone else said, the fat lady has not yet sung, but she is on stage and the curtain is being lifted. This is a very real problem and does need to be addressed. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Scott Reed Owner NewWays Networking, LLC Wireless Networking Network Design, Installation and Administration Mikrotik Advanced Certified www.nwwnet.net (765) 855-1060 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
At 2/7/2011 11:07 AM, you wrote: Definitely not directed at you butch. I just remember some of the guys from those days. No, I'm not concerned about Butch, especially since there will be *some* customers who want IPv6, so it makes sense for many ISPs to provide the option. I'm thinking about the way Y2K spurred a big run on equipment sales, as perfectly good gear was replaced out of fear. It was good for the economy in 1999 and just awful in 2000 when sales plummeted. In the case of v6, I can think of certain *large* router vendors who are pushing it very, very hard, spurred on by the fact that their older kit cannot do v6 at high speed. Unless you're a big backbone player with scads of traffic to move, it seems to me that software-based routers today are a much better deal. One of my big concerns with them has been that they are good for Ethernet but don't always have a lot of WAN interfaces, like DS1 and DS3. But Imagestream seems to have both, including a channelized DS3 card. I assume Vyatta does, or could, too, though ISTM Imagestream makes their own cards. On Feb 7, 2011, at 10:05 AM, Butch Evans but...@butchevans.com wrote: On 02/07/2011 09:40 AM, Jeremie Chism wrote: It will just turn into 1999 all over again with businesses everywhere worried they won't be able to use the Internet so they bring in high priced consultants to show them how to transition to IPV6. Not all of us are that high priced! :-) -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
Probably not directed towards ISPs, but to other organizations. http://fixedorbit.com/stats.htm http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space/ipv4-address-space.xml GE probably doesn't need 16M+ IPs. HP probably doesn't need 33M+ IPs. Ford probably doesn't need 16M+ IPs.. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 2/7/2011 10:34 AM, Matt wrote: No, it's not a real problem. I liken it to the exhaust of homesteads in the past century. You used to be able to go to a land office and ask for your 40 acres. Then they ran out. But you could still buy a farm from somebody who previously had a homestead. Very few are going to give up there 'old' IP space without wanting a high price if at all. I know I won't, any one else going too? Like most ISP's we grow every year not shrink. I see this as a real problem. I imagine we will dual stack soon and when the pinch comes give lower tier users a NAT'ed IPv4 IP and a /48 or /64 of IPv6 space. I hate the idea of handing out NAT'ed IP space though. Too hard to tell who did what. My opinion is there should be a very hard push to IPv6. Whats bad is 99% percent of consumer wifi routers do not support IPv6. That is going to be a HUGE issue. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
Being able to talk IPv6 is the real problem. There will be content providers out there who will have v6 only networks. Even if you use all ipv4 space you or your upstream will need to be able to talk v6 in the near future. V4 is not going away. A separate v6 network will be layered on top of and beside the current network. ISPs need to be able to talk to this network in one fashion or another. At one point it will be hard to get v4 addresses. You will have to make deals with individuals, brokers, etc. to get v4 space. It will become a premium. All the while v6 addresses will be easy to get. Customer will be needing to get to v6 space whether they realize it or not. If your networks can't do native v6 *or* some sort of translation from 4 to 6 you will hear about it. You will have entire networks running v6 only with translation to v4. All of this will take time. Justin -- Justin Wilson j...@mtin.net Aol Yahoo IM: j2sw http://www.mtin.net/blog xISP News http://www.twitter.com/j2sw Follow me on Twitter Wisp Consulting Tower Climbing Network Support WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
Hey it was expensive to dig up some of those cobol programmer programmers. And thaw the rest. Marco On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Jeremie Chism jchi...@gmail.com wrote: Definitely not directed at you butch. I just remember some of the guys from those days. Sent from my iPhone4 On Feb 7, 2011, at 10:05 AM, Butch Evans but...@butchevans.com wrote: On 02/07/2011 09:40 AM, Jeremie Chism wrote: It will just turn into 1999 all over again with businesses everywhere worried they won't be able to use the Internet so they bring in high priced consultants to show them how to transition to IPV6. Not all of us are that high priced! :-) -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://store.wispgear.net/* Wired or Wireless Networks * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * ImageStream, Mikrotik and MORE! * *NOTE THE NEW PHONE NUMBER: 702-537-0979 * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Marco C. Coelho Argon Technologies Inc. POB 875 Greenville, TX 75403-0875 903-455-5036 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
At 2/7/2011 11:34 AM, Matt wrote: No, it's not a real problem. I liken it to the exhaust of homesteads in the past century. You used to be able to go to a land office and ask for your 40 acres. Then they ran out. But you could still buy a farm from somebody who previously had a homestead. Very few are going to give up there 'old' IP space without wanting a high price if at all. I know I won't, any one else going too? Like most ISP's we grow every year not shrink. I see this as a real problem. I imagine we will dual stack soon and when the pinch comes give lower tier users a NAT'ed IPv4 IP and a /48 or /64 of IPv6 space. I hate the idea of handing out NAT'ed IP space though. Too hard to tell who did what. My opinion is there should be a very hard push to IPv6. Who says anything about giving up old IP space? It's not chattel property. It is merely an identifier in a protocol header, used under a voluntary agreement to exchange traffic. It was given away for free; it can be taken back. The FCC has legal authority over the North American Numbering Plan in the US, which is the *name* space for telephones. Unlike the Internet, it's not voluntary, it's regulated. About a decade ago, they ordered Number Pooling to begin. Carriers who had prefix codes with unused or under-utilized thousands blocks had to return them. Carriers today still have to file semiannual reports on number utilization. Notice how area code splits suddenly slowed to a crawl in the early part of the last decade? Number pooling did it. This was not voluntary. Your unused blocks of numbers were Reclaimed. If IANA or the RIRs wanted to do this, they could. They could simply announce that HP no longer owns Net 16 (old DEC space acquired with Compaq), for instance, effective x date, and HP should stop using it. And Halliburton and Daimler-Benz and other large-block holders should also lose unneeded space and be told to renumber. And then they should ask BGP users to respect the new assignments. Since the Internet is *voluntary*, Uncle Sam has no say; the ISP community decides who is the real owner of the space. The lawyers will, of course, try to find a way to get involved, since IPv4 address blocks *can* now be resold (to qualified buyers), so the large-block owners might see this as taking away windfall profits that they might be able to make by selling those oversized blocks. IAB made their bed, and now they'll have to sleep in it. Whats bad is 99% percent of consumer wifi routers do not support IPv6. That is going to be a HUGE issue. A good reason to assume that anything of any interest to the general public will remain on IPv4 for the foreseeable future, and v6-only will be limited to narrow-interest activities. -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
I am not sure I agree with the conclusion. I think we are going to see some new applications that use some of the things that IPv6 offers, like multi-cast and any-cast in ways we can not imagine, yet. When they do and the consumer demand comes, the SOHO router market will catch. ISPs better be ready. On 2/7/2011 2:23 PM, Fred Goldstein wrote: Whats bad is 99% percent of consumer wifi routers do not support IPv6. That is going to be a HUGE issue. A good reason to assume that anything of any interest to the general public will remain on IPv4 for the foreseeable future, and v6-only will be limited to narrow-interest activities. -- Scott Reed Owner NewWays Networking, LLC Wireless Networking Network Design, Installation and Administration Mikrotik Advanced Certified www.nwwnet.net (765) 855-1060 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
On 4 February 2011 16:57, Mark Nash markl...@uwol.net wrote: This is the kind of FUD that the world does not need. On 2/4/2011 1:10 PM, Data Technology wrote: http://www.informationweek.com/news/internet/policy/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=229201157cid=RSSfeed_IWK_All How exactly is this FUD? It is a very real problem, with an equally real solution. (says the hypocrite posting this from an ipv4 only laptop) WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
We are not out of IPv4 addresses. The unallocated pool is exhausted. There is a difference. Think of it in terms as water from a well. You have all of these people bringing water up from the well (the water is ipv4 addresses). These people are storing these addresses in buckets, bottles, etc. and distributing them to others. One day the well runs dry. This does not mean you are out of water because you have all these people out there who have bottled water they can sell to others. They just can't go back to the well and get more. What they have is what they have. Justin -- Justin Wilson j...@mtin.net Aol Yahoo IM: j2sw http://www.mtin.net/blog xISP News http://www.twitter.com/j2sw Follow me on Twitter Wisp Consulting Tower Climbing Network Support From: Jeremy Parr jeremyp...@gmail.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 13:20:35 -0500 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
http://www.informationweek.com/news/internet/policy/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=229201157cid=RSSfeed_IWK_All WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Internet Runs Out Of IP Addresses
This is the kind of FUD that the world does not need. On 2/4/2011 1:10 PM, Data Technology wrote: http://www.informationweek.com/news/internet/policy/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=229201157cid=RSSfeed_IWK_All WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
