Re: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
- Original Message - From: Chadd Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 8:07 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list Butch, Thanks for taking the time to reply with a well thought out professional response to my questions. Those are just 2 examples, both of which were posted right here on this free list. Sorry if what I was asking didn't come across the correct way. I am not worried about the monetary value of what membership gives, that information has been well advertised. There seems to be great support from vendors and such to WISPA members. Looking from the outside it doesn't always appear that the ORG is able to uphold the code of ethics. This is mainly based off of discussions held on the freelist. I see comments from members, officers of the ORG that I feel do not uphold the above listed items from the code of ethics. I'd really like to understand what you see that makes this a true statement. Just read some of the responses to this discussion that has been going on. I think it is pretty obvious. Or if its not maybe I am reading more into comments than I should be, if thats the case I apologize as I mentioned in my previous post it is very difficult to interpret someones tone when reading an email. Here is a quote that I take as being non professional and I definalty don't think comments like this do anything to support WISPA, our industry and in my opinion do nothing to add any credibility to WISP's in general. Quote You've got this backward Peter. The question is, what value to they bring to WISPA? Unquote. I am not gonna sell you the organization. But I will work on answering this a little. 1. WISPA is right now working on a standard that will make CALEA safe harbor VERY INEXPENSIVE for WISPs. Not just members. This is an INDUSTRY solution. Does WISPA seek input from members when dealing with issues like this? Or is everything decided by a group of officers? In other words how does the ORG run on a day to day basis, how are decisions made, how does it decide what battles to fight, how does it determine what stance to take on issues? Sure people have input. Well, those that care to be involved anyway. No, we don't go to the membership with everyday details etc. When we file with the FCC etc. the committee (who's only really active member is me, still looking for real help on the committee!) we hash out what will be said, then put that out to the members then file. When no one says anything about the filings etc. we move forward. If anyone doesn't like what's being done or said, they either aren't speaking up or are not in the majority. marlon -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
Please don't take this in a negative tone because it is not meant to be, I know it is hard to judge tone through an email. It astounds me that you would make the statement above but not understand why it is your obligation to pay the $25 a month it costs to pay your part. If you cannot pay $25 a month for the things we are doing then you are not seeing the bigger picture. You cannot afford not to pay your dues. I have saved several times more than I pay in dues with what I get from WISPA. If you don't then you have simply not looked at what we are offering.. I really don't know what WISPA is offering members as far as benefits. I am looking at the WISPA web site as I type this. There is nothing on the web site indicating what WISPA is doing and or has done since it has been around. I may not be looking in the right place on the web site but all I see is some general news. To get members you have to show people what the value is to join. Again I know people are working on stuff in tbe background but what? Maybe once someone joins they have access to different lists or a different place on the WEB site that shows more of whats going on. I guess my point here is that in my opinion WISPA needs to do a better job of selling it self, showing what it's doing and what it has done for our industry. So $25 per month is a deal breaker? Maybe you need a stronger association to work to find ways of making you more money. Then again if you cannot see the value then why would you join? Again see my comments above, I really don't know what the value of WISPA is, please exlpain to me what the benefits of membership are. I am not a WISPA member and I don't consider myself a freeloader here. If I give input to one person a month on a problem they are having I have pulled my weight. Sorry. That is not enough. We need dues to do the work of what needs to be done in WISPA. We all help each other on the lists. That goes both ways You never get help from people on the lists? Yes I get help from others on the list. This was more of a reply to indicate that normal interaction on the freelist should justify ones being there and that as long as there is back and fourth assistance then someone is pulling thier weight as far as the freelist goes. That does not help lobby for change in regulatory or legislative efforts. I work for free as basically an executive director for this organization, Marlon works for free basically as a lobbyist. Rick Harnish runs 60 list servers for free. Matt Larsen runs the WISPA website. Do you think we do this so we can get an attaboy? We do this to help guys like you. We won't be here doing it for free forever. Who does the heavy lifting if we all decided to do it your way? Who pays the bills then? What has and what is WISPA lobbying for? What has WISPA successfully lobbied for? As I have mentioned before, everytime I get ready to open up the wallet to join crap like this comes up and makes me wonder if it is a good investment. Talk of free listserver members being freeloaders and not supporting the org is sure as hell not a good way to drive up membership. What is the feel good way for us to convince you that the $3000 worth of free legal help we gave out for CALEA is worth the $250 a year? That is just one thing WISPA has done for WISPs lately. We constantly work to help. If you cannot see it then you just are not paying enough attention to what we do for you guys here. Scriv I am sorry but as I mentioned above I can not see from the outside what WISPA is doing or has going on. Maybe I am not paying close enough attention, I don't know. As far as a feel good way that I would be getting my $$ worth, for one thing I think that seeing that the code of ethics was being upheld as defined for the org would be a good starter. ARTICLE II We will conduct ourselves in such a manner as to bring credit to our industry and enhance its reputation. ARTICLE III We will publicize our services in a professional manner upholding the dignity of our profession. We will avoid all conduct, practices and promotion likely to discredit or do injury to our field of endeavor. ARTICLE IV We will strive to broaden public understanding and enhance public regard and confidence in our Industry. ) Not disparage other members by statement or innuendo to clients or prospective clients. Looking from the outside it doesn't always appear that the ORG is able to uphold the code of ethics. This is mainly based off of discussions held on the freelist. I see comments from members, officers of the ORG that I feel do not uphold the above listed items from the code of ethics. Again please read this as an outsider looking in, trying to understand what WISPA has going on or as done for our industry and what the value is for me to join. I am not saying WISPA is not doing or has not done anything for our industry. I just need some help understanding. Thanks, Chadd Thompson --
RE: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
On Fri, 18 May 2007, Chadd Thompson wrote: I am sorry but as I mentioned above I can not see from the outside what WISPA is doing or has going on. Maybe I am not paying close enough attention, I don't know. I'll just mention TWO examples. Direct $ for $ examples, too. You may not be using these services, but they answer the question, and both were posted right here on this list. 1. Kris Twomey (even now) is selling the legal service of doing the filing for CALEA at $100 (or $125...I can't recall) for WISPA members. He charges $250 to do it for NON WISPA members. That is a direct $125 (worst case) savings. If you use this service, the real cost of a WISPA membership is $125. 2. Frank Muto sells an email filtering service (Postini) and has offered to pay for your full WISPA membership with the purchase of some level of service with him. I can't recall the specific details, but his offer makes WISPA membership absolutely free. Those are just 2 examples, both of which were posted right here on this free list. Looking from the outside it doesn't always appear that the ORG is able to uphold the code of ethics. This is mainly based off of discussions held on the freelist. I see comments from members, officers of the ORG that I feel do not uphold the above listed items from the code of ethics. I'd really like to understand what you see that makes this a true statement. Again please read this as an outsider looking in, trying to understand what WISPA has going on or as done for our industry and what the value is for me to join. I am not saying WISPA is not doing or has not done anything for our industry. I just need some help understanding. I am not gonna sell you the organization. But I will work on answering this a little. 1. WISPA is right now working on a standard that will make CALEA safe harbor VERY INEXPENSIVE for WISPs. Not just members. This is an INDUSTRY solution. 2. WISPA has been urging WISPs to file the 477 forms, which is important because it will make us, as an industry, a larger portion of the broadband deployment in the US (statistically) as far as the government is concerned. Why is this important? Besides being the law, government is working to insure that every American has access to broadband. If we are providing that service in an area and they don't know about it, they will still work on a way to get that access available. 3. WISPA has urged (on several occasions) WISPs to file comments on various spectrum issues that would be beneficial to WISPs. WISPA has (as an organization) filed comments as well. Because we don't have the $$ to hire a lobby, this is the best effort in this regard. Now it's time to ask YOU what YOU have done for our industry. Have you filed comments on the issues that will impact your business? For the most part, over the past couple of years WISPA has. Have you filed your 477? If you're not going to join, then just don't join. Stop making excuses about what are you doing...You claim to be on the list since the beginning and you can't see what's been happening? What advantage does WISPA offer you? Give me a break. WISPA has done a LOT, considering the $$ that they have to work with. Either join or don't, but stop acting as though you need to be sold because you can't find anything on the website giving you what the value of WISPA is. FWIW, I do agree that WISPA needs to do a better job of selling itself on the website, but the point (in your case) is that you are just using it as an excuse, IMO. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
Butch, I have also seen more valuable information shared amongst paid members such as contracts for towers, roof rights and end-user agreements. Each of these documents could be well-worth the annual fee individually. You also get voting rights which help you steer WISPA's direction. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 10:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list On Fri, 18 May 2007, Chadd Thompson wrote: I am sorry but as I mentioned above I can not see from the outside what WISPA is doing or has going on. Maybe I am not paying close enough attention, I don't know. I'll just mention TWO examples. Direct $ for $ examples, too. You may not be using these services, but they answer the question, and both were posted right here on this list. 1. Kris Twomey (even now) is selling the legal service of doing the filing for CALEA at $100 (or $125...I can't recall) for WISPA members. He charges $250 to do it for NON WISPA members. That is a direct $125 (worst case) savings. If you use this service, the real cost of a WISPA membership is $125. 2. Frank Muto sells an email filtering service (Postini) and has offered to pay for your full WISPA membership with the purchase of some level of service with him. I can't recall the specific details, but his offer makes WISPA membership absolutely free. Those are just 2 examples, both of which were posted right here on this free list. Looking from the outside it doesn't always appear that the ORG is able to uphold the code of ethics. This is mainly based off of discussions held on the freelist. I see comments from members, officers of the ORG that I feel do not uphold the above listed items from the code of ethics. I'd really like to understand what you see that makes this a true statement. Again please read this as an outsider looking in, trying to understand what WISPA has going on or as done for our industry and what the value is for me to join. I am not saying WISPA is not doing or has not done anything for our industry. I just need some help understanding. I am not gonna sell you the organization. But I will work on answering this a little. 1. WISPA is right now working on a standard that will make CALEA safe harbor VERY INEXPENSIVE for WISPs. Not just members. This is an INDUSTRY solution. 2. WISPA has been urging WISPs to file the 477 forms, which is important because it will make us, as an industry, a larger portion of the broadband deployment in the US (statistically) as far as the government is concerned. Why is this important? Besides being the law, government is working to insure that every American has access to broadband. If we are providing that service in an area and they don't know about it, they will still work on a way to get that access available. 3. WISPA has urged (on several occasions) WISPs to file comments on various spectrum issues that would be beneficial to WISPs. WISPA has (as an organization) filed comments as well. Because we don't have the $$ to hire a lobby, this is the best effort in this regard. Now it's time to ask YOU what YOU have done for our industry. Have you filed comments on the issues that will impact your business? For the most part, over the past couple of years WISPA has. Have you filed your 477? If you're not going to join, then just don't join. Stop making excuses about what are you doing...You claim to be on the list since the beginning and you can't see what's been happening? What advantage does WISPA offer you? Give me a break. WISPA has done a LOT, considering the $$ that they have to work with. Either join or don't, but stop acting as though you need to be sold because you can't find anything on the website giving you what the value of WISPA is. FWIW, I do agree that WISPA needs to do a better job of selling itself on the website, but the point (in your case) is that you are just using it as an excuse, IMO. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 X-MS-SIGNATURE:YES N;LANGUAGE=en-us:LeBoeuf;Cliff FN:Cliff LeBoeuf ORG:Computer Sales Services, Inc. TEL;WORK;VOICE:(985) 879-3219 ADR;WORK;PREF:;;1162 Barrow Street;Houma;LA;70360;United States of America LABEL;WORK;PREF;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:1162 Barrow Street=0D=0A= Houma, LA 70360 X-MS-OL-DEFAULT-POSTAL-ADDRESS:2 URL;WORK:www.cssla.com www.triparish.net EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] X-MS-TEXT;CUSTOM1:Computers - Copiers -
RE: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
Well as a new member to Wispa I have already got back half my dues by using Kris Twomey, and I am gonna look at Frank Muto's product. Robert -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 10:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list On Fri, 18 May 2007, Chadd Thompson wrote: I am sorry but as I mentioned above I can not see from the outside what WISPA is doing or has going on. Maybe I am not paying close enough attention, I don't know. I'll just mention TWO examples. Direct $ for $ examples, too. You may not be using these services, but they answer the question, and both were posted right here on this list. 1. Kris Twomey (even now) is selling the legal service of doing the filing for CALEA at $100 (or $125...I can't recall) for WISPA members. He charges $250 to do it for NON WISPA members. That is a direct $125 (worst case) savings. If you use this service, the real cost of a WISPA membership is $125. 2. Frank Muto sells an email filtering service (Postini) and has offered to pay for your full WISPA membership with the purchase of some level of service with him. I can't recall the specific details, but his offer makes WISPA membership absolutely free. Those are just 2 examples, both of which were posted right here on this free list. Looking from the outside it doesn't always appear that the ORG is able to uphold the code of ethics. This is mainly based off of discussions held on the freelist. I see comments from members, officers of the ORG that I feel do not uphold the above listed items from the code of ethics. I'd really like to understand what you see that makes this a true statement. Again please read this as an outsider looking in, trying to understand what WISPA has going on or as done for our industry and what the value is for me to join. I am not saying WISPA is not doing or has not done anything for our industry. I just need some help understanding. I am not gonna sell you the organization. But I will work on answering this a little. 1. WISPA is right now working on a standard that will make CALEA safe harbor VERY INEXPENSIVE for WISPs. Not just members. This is an INDUSTRY solution. 2. WISPA has been urging WISPs to file the 477 forms, which is important because it will make us, as an industry, a larger portion of the broadband deployment in the US (statistically) as far as the government is concerned. Why is this important? Besides being the law, government is working to insure that every American has access to broadband. If we are providing that service in an area and they don't know about it, they will still work on a way to get that access available. 3. WISPA has urged (on several occasions) WISPs to file comments on various spectrum issues that would be beneficial to WISPs. WISPA has (as an organization) filed comments as well. Because we don't have the $$ to hire a lobby, this is the best effort in this regard. Now it's time to ask YOU what YOU have done for our industry. Have you filed comments on the issues that will impact your business? For the most part, over the past couple of years WISPA has. Have you filed your 477? If you're not going to join, then just don't join. Stop making excuses about what are you doing...You claim to be on the list since the beginning and you can't see what's been happening? What advantage does WISPA offer you? Give me a break. WISPA has done a LOT, considering the $$ that they have to work with. Either join or don't, but stop acting as though you need to be sold because you can't find anything on the website giving you what the value of WISPA is. FWIW, I do agree that WISPA needs to do a better job of selling itself on the website, but the point (in your case) is that you are just using it as an excuse, IMO. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
Same here with Kris Twomey, and I AM now using Frank Muto's Postini product... He gives a good discount to WISPA members, gave a 30-day trial, and spent alot of time on the phone with me in training. Now it's like Spam? What spam? from my customers that I have turned it on for. Mark Nash UnwiredOnline.Net 350 Holly Street Junction City, OR 97448 http://www.uwol.net 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax - Original Message - From: Robert Norris [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 9:33 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list Well as a new member to Wispa I have already got back half my dues by using Kris Twomey, and I am gonna look at Frank Muto's product. Robert -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 10:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list On Fri, 18 May 2007, Chadd Thompson wrote: I am sorry but as I mentioned above I can not see from the outside what WISPA is doing or has going on. Maybe I am not paying close enough attention, I don't know. I'll just mention TWO examples. Direct $ for $ examples, too. You may not be using these services, but they answer the question, and both were posted right here on this list. 1. Kris Twomey (even now) is selling the legal service of doing the filing for CALEA at $100 (or $125...I can't recall) for WISPA members. He charges $250 to do it for NON WISPA members. That is a direct $125 (worst case) savings. If you use this service, the real cost of a WISPA membership is $125. 2. Frank Muto sells an email filtering service (Postini) and has offered to pay for your full WISPA membership with the purchase of some level of service with him. I can't recall the specific details, but his offer makes WISPA membership absolutely free. Those are just 2 examples, both of which were posted right here on this free list. Looking from the outside it doesn't always appear that the ORG is able to uphold the code of ethics. This is mainly based off of discussions held on the freelist. I see comments from members, officers of the ORG that I feel do not uphold the above listed items from the code of ethics. I'd really like to understand what you see that makes this a true statement. Again please read this as an outsider looking in, trying to understand what WISPA has going on or as done for our industry and what the value is for me to join. I am not saying WISPA is not doing or has not done anything for our industry. I just need some help understanding. I am not gonna sell you the organization. But I will work on answering this a little. 1. WISPA is right now working on a standard that will make CALEA safe harbor VERY INEXPENSIVE for WISPs. Not just members. This is an INDUSTRY solution. 2. WISPA has been urging WISPs to file the 477 forms, which is important because it will make us, as an industry, a larger portion of the broadband deployment in the US (statistically) as far as the government is concerned. Why is this important? Besides being the law, government is working to insure that every American has access to broadband. If we are providing that service in an area and they don't know about it, they will still work on a way to get that access available. 3. WISPA has urged (on several occasions) WISPs to file comments on various spectrum issues that would be beneficial to WISPs. WISPA has (as an organization) filed comments as well. Because we don't have the $$ to hire a lobby, this is the best effort in this regard. Now it's time to ask YOU what YOU have done for our industry. Have you filed comments on the issues that will impact your business? For the most part, over the past couple of years WISPA has. Have you filed your 477? If you're not going to join, then just don't join. Stop making excuses about what are you doing...You claim to be on the list since the beginning and you can't see what's been happening? What advantage does WISPA offer you? Give me a break. WISPA has done a LOT, considering the $$ that they have to work with. Either join or don't, but stop acting as though you need to be sold because you can't find anything on the website giving you what the value of WISPA is. FWIW, I do agree that WISPA needs to do a better job of selling itself on the website, but the point (in your case) is that you are just using it as an excuse, IMO. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives:
RE: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
Butch, Thanks for taking the time to reply with a well thought out professional response to my questions. Those are just 2 examples, both of which were posted right here on this free list. Sorry if what I was asking didn't come across the correct way. I am not worried about the monetary value of what membership gives, that information has been well advertised. There seems to be great support from vendors and such to WISPA members. Looking from the outside it doesn't always appear that the ORG is able to uphold the code of ethics. This is mainly based off of discussions held on the freelist. I see comments from members, officers of the ORG that I feel do not uphold the above listed items from the code of ethics. I'd really like to understand what you see that makes this a true statement. Just read some of the responses to this discussion that has been going on. I think it is pretty obvious. Or if its not maybe I am reading more into comments than I should be, if thats the case I apologize as I mentioned in my previous post it is very difficult to interpret someones tone when reading an email. Here is a quote that I take as being non professional and I definalty don't think comments like this do anything to support WISPA, our industry and in my opinion do nothing to add any credibility to WISP's in general. Quote You've got this backward Peter. The question is, what value to they bring to WISPA? Unquote. I am not gonna sell you the organization. But I will work on answering this a little. 1. WISPA is right now working on a standard that will make CALEA safe harbor VERY INEXPENSIVE for WISPs. Not just members. This is an INDUSTRY solution. Does WISPA seek input from members when dealing with issues like this? Or is everything decided by a group of officers? In other words how does the ORG run on a day to day basis, how are decisions made, how does it decide what battles to fight, how does it determine what stance to take on issues? 2. WISPA has been urging WISPs to file the 477 forms, which is important because it will make us, as an industry, a larger portion of the broadband deployment in the US (statistically) as far as the government is concerned. Why is this important? Besides being the law, government is working to insure that every American has access to broadband. If we are providing that service in an area and they don't know about it, they will still work on a way to get that access available. 3. WISPA has urged (on several occasions) WISPs to file comments on various spectrum issues that would be beneficial to WISPs. WISPA has (as an organization) filed comments as well. Because we don't have the $$ to hire a lobby, this is the best effort in this regard. Now it's time to ask YOU what YOU have done for our industry. Have you filed comments on the issues that will impact your business? For the most part, over the past couple of years WISPA has. Have you filed your 477? Yes I have been sending in our 477 since it came out. Tincans Wireless Internet Yes I have commented on issues to the FCC with regards our industry. Some I have heard about on this list and some I have heard about elsewhere. If you're not going to join, then just don't join. Stop making excuses about what are you doing...You claim to be on the list since the beginning and you can't see what's been happening? What advantage does WISPA offer you? Give me a break. WISPA has done a LOT, considering the $$ that they have to work with. Either join or don't, but stop acting as though you need to be sold because you can't find anything on the website giving you what the value of WISPA is. FWIW, I do agree that WISPA needs to do a better job of selling itself on the website, but the point (in your case) is that you are just using it as an excuse, IMO. Again Butch thanks for taking the time to respond in a professional, productive manner. I am sure it looks as if I am making excuses not to join, but if that was the case I wouldn't be here to begin with, it would not be worth my energy/time if I was not truly intersted in joining and supporting WISPA. I just have questions about how the ORG operates on a day to day basis, how decisions are made, where does the average joe fit in, etc etc. Thanks, Chadd Thompson -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
Chadd Thompson wrote: Does WISPA seek input from members when dealing with issues like this? Or is everything decided by a group of officers? In other words how does the ORG run on a day to day basis, how are decisions made, how does it decide what battles to fight, how does it determine what stance to take on issues? Chadd We really really want wisps to join participate get involved help advise and bring ideas to the table. Some wisps help by sending a check and don't have the time to do much more than that. They don't even subscribe to this list. We all are grateful to them as well. But I think your active well thought out ideas and advice is a part of the consensus building that is needed to help lead WISPA in the right direction. So yeah we want your input/help. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
On Fri, 18 May 2007, Chadd Thompson wrote: Sorry if what I was asking didn't come across the correct way. I am not worried about the monetary value of what membership gives, that information has been well advertised. There seems to be great support from vendors and such to WISPA members. In that case, it seems the latter part of my response was a better answer to that part of your question. Here is a quote that I take as being non professional and I definalty don't think comments like this do anything to support WISPA, our industry and in my opinion do nothing to add any credibility to WISP's in general. Quote You've got this backward Peter. The question is, what value to they bring to WISPA? Unquote. Well, the point Marlon was making (I think) was that WISPA would be more of a benefit to all WISPs if all the WISP members joined in the effort. I look at WISPA membership in a way that is similar to church membership (don't take that comparison too far... :-). When I am looking for a church, I look for a place where I have opportunity to serve, as well as receive the things I need. I think Marlon's point was similar (though he put it in a different way). Joining WISPA should be only the first step. Joining and then following through in helping to supply ideas and direction for the organization. Ultimately, it is the board of directors that decide what WISPA does, but the board is elected by the membership and is, therefore, beholden to follow their ideas. FWIW, the board is required in the bylaws to be comprised of a majority of WISPs. Vendors can hold a seat on the board, but the majority MUST be from the WISP membership. Marlon (who you quoted) is a great guy, and a hard working leader in WISPA. Perhaps I am speaking out of turn trying to explain his meaning, but that's what _I_ understood his post to mean. 1. WISPA is right now working on a standard that will make CALEA safe harbor VERY INEXPENSIVE for WISPs. Not just members. This is an INDUSTRY solution. Does WISPA seek input from members when dealing with issues like this? Or is everything decided by a group of officers? In other words how does the ORG run on a day to day basis, how are decisions made, how does it decide what battles to fight, how does it determine what stance to take on issues? Marlon, if I provide more information here than I should, you can slap me down on the other list. :-) I can give you a very brief synopsis of what we do on the CALEA committee. When the issue of CALEA became forefront, we (WISPA) decided to try to make this less painful to WISPs. For whatever reason (I can't say), CALEA was not addressed here on this list (may have been on the member list...). Either way, by the time it was in front of us, it was too late to try to do much about it other than try to figure out a way to make it something that would not put a bunch of us (WISPs) out of business. SO, several of us were asked by Marlon to try to create an industry standard that would be palatable for even the smallest WISP. We took a list of questions, which was compiled from posts on this and other lists to the FBI to get clarification (answers) to those questions. We, also, asked some questions that would help us to develop the industry standard that I mentioned above. The initial result of that trip is the CALEA FAQ (http://www.wispa.org/?page_id=22). We are working now to finish some documentation that will assist WISPs in the decision making process for HOW they can bring their network into compliance with the eventual standard. We will be releasing some things from this committee in the next few days that will be helpful as well (until the standard is completed and approved). I'm not sure if this answers the question, but it's my story and I'm sticking to it! :-) WISPA is run by a board of directors that is elected by the membership. You see posts from time to time on this list asking for input, but I presume there is more of that on the members list. I am a vendor member, so I am not privy to what is posted there. I'll leave it to one of the board members to offer more information on the day to day stuff you are asking about. Again Butch thanks for taking the time to respond in a professional, productive manner. I am sure it looks as if I am making excuses not to join, but if that was the case I wouldn't be here to begin with, it would not be worth my energy/time if I was not truly intersted in joining and supporting WISPA. I just have questions about how the ORG operates on a day to day basis, how decisions are made, where does the average joe fit in, etc etc. Some of your questions will have to be answered by a board member, because I am not, nor am I privy to the members only list. I can tell you that every member of the current board will accept the input that members provide as part of their decision making process. I don't know all of
Re: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
I'm going out on a limb and will voice some things that have been suppressed. I get your point that you think I am a freeloader and do not contribute. My problem for not joining is not a money one, but rather one of principle. I did get involved early on and saw that there was still an old guard of the good old boys. They played favorites early on and still do. Is it proper to support that? It would be very BAD for the Industry if one were to push and fight the GOB's, but, and this in not an excuse, I do not have to time for such fights. There are other more important things to do, so I lurk, and occasionally chime in when I feel something has been really missed or has gone overboard. It is better for me not to get into fights and the Organization does need that either. Do I support WISPA? Partly. When things like CALEA come up and people are sent to talk with the FBI and FCC, what is their game plan? What are they trying to do for the membership? All I saw was a few people were star struck that they actually talked the HEAD of the FBI for CALEA. BIG DEAL. Those people put their pants on one leg at a time like we all do. Did you tell these guys what would be best for the Industry? Did you even know what was good for the Industry? Or did you take your hat in your hand and come back and use all sort of tactics to get people to sign that they would be ready for CALEA compliance, when in fact nobody even knew what that would require? I feel that WISPA should have taken a much harder line on that and other issues. Any members who spoke against what the FBI and FCC told the WISPA group were quickly put down and isolated. It was disgusting to watch. It certainly was not a functioning democracy. It was pretty heavy handed. In short, I have not seen the organization really go to bat for the membership. I can only imagine the crap that would hit the fan if the FBI and FCC were to give the Telcos the same sort of treatment with regards to time and unknown requirements that they gave to the WISPA people. Sure you don't have the funds, but do you compromise everything until you get the funds? Or do you stand up for what is right and people either support you or not? My suspicion is you'll get the support if you represent what people want. People vote with their feet and pocketbooks. I've seen a lot of good people leave. I've seen a lot of good people forced out because the GOB's could not stand them. And I've seen a lot of good people (mostly everybody on this list) not support WISPA financially. Does that tell you anything? No you don't need more Vendors, you need a reality check so you can get more members. This whole idea that you need more Vendors because they pay the most is, well, so commercial sounding. I'm sure that business principles have to be used to run and account for things, but to raise money? No, that should not be a business. Lonnie On 5/17/07, Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (In response to Lonnie and Mac) 1) It takes money for an organization to do things. Sometimes vendors put up that money so that their customer base thrives. (Some times they do not). 2) It's always hard to get dues-paying members, especially when the most value is the listserv. (Again, it ought to cost something to be here. If they want free, go to ISP-Wireless). 3) Be careful how you represent your relationship to vendors. This is how one org received the reputation for being an RBOC tool. You need a pro-member reputation. 4) That said, how many people on this list post more than once a week and are NOT members? How many lurk - read every message - but aren't members? 5) Most here don't understand the energy, effort, time and money it takes to run an association. If you give a hoot at all, you spend 2 to 5 hours daily on issues, messages, board and committee stuff. Then travel to DC. Travel to some shows to get the WISPA name under the lights. PR costs money, but to date are we doing any? Rent, utilities and salary even for a part-time administrator would be $30K per year (if outsourced to a certified association management company). 6) The problem becomes when there are parties here who do not 100% agree with the direction of the org. (And we have seen that problem recently). Unfortunately, the answer for those that do not whole-heartedly agree is to pack their stuff and leave. (Now that is real adult). This association is by and for the members -- to do everything to help you thrive and survive. You as WISP's have responsibilities too - to comment, join, volunteer, steer, and row the boat. If you don't want to do any (some) of that, why get mad at the people and the direction? What did you do to steer? [Note} And PLEASE don't give me the I'm-too-freaking-busy or I'm-too-poor to help. That is an excuse. If you use excuses, then you might as well close shop now. Just fess up: I'm too selfish or It is easier to be a back seat driver. (As a back seat driver, you don't pay for
RE: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
Lonnie, I've been quiet through this whole thing, but I have to speak up here. CALEA is a reality here, and I believe that something like it will soon be a reality in Canada. Shouting at the Capitol building from outside the fence may feel good, but it gets nothing accomplished. The FACT is that if you want to be a service provider you need to have a plan for CALEA compliance. It's everyone's right to say that it doesn't apply to them, but that doesn't make them correct...and if they say it loud and often enough, others may get the wrong idea as well. We are involved heavily on the CALEA committee. Has everything gone exactly the way we would like? No, but that's the nature of any committee (and Wispa is really a large committee), and we are ok with that. Overall, we've been pleased to be part of forming Wispa's direction for CALEA compliance. I believe that we are further along in our efforts, and that Wispa is further along in the overall effort, because we joined in the process. I don't think you are a freeloader. Everything I see and hear says that you are a great guy and a fine businessman. You have been contributing to lists for years and anyone who has been around knows that. I hope that you join in, you'd be a terrific addition to the team. Jeff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 2:55 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list I'm going out on a limb and will voice some things that have been suppressed. I get your point that you think I am a freeloader and do not contribute. My problem for not joining is not a money one, but rather one of principle. I did get involved early on and saw that there was still an old guard of the good old boys. They played favorites early on and still do. Is it proper to support that? It would be very BAD for the Industry if one were to push and fight the GOB's, but, and this in not an excuse, I do not have to time for such fights. There are other more important things to do, so I lurk, and occasionally chime in when I feel something has been really missed or has gone overboard. It is better for me not to get into fights and the Organization does need that either. Do I support WISPA? Partly. When things like CALEA come up and people are sent to talk with the FBI and FCC, what is their game plan? What are they trying to do for the membership? All I saw was a few people were star struck that they actually talked the HEAD of the FBI for CALEA. BIG DEAL. Those people put their pants on one leg at a time like we all do. Did you tell these guys what would be best for the Industry? Did you even know what was good for the Industry? Or did you take your hat in your hand and come back and use all sort of tactics to get people to sign that they would be ready for CALEA compliance, when in fact nobody even knew what that would require? I feel that WISPA should have taken a much harder line on that and other issues. Any members who spoke against what the FBI and FCC told the WISPA group were quickly put down and isolated. It was disgusting to watch. It certainly was not a functioning democracy. It was pretty heavy handed. In short, I have not seen the organization really go to bat for the membership. I can only imagine the crap that would hit the fan if the FBI and FCC were to give the Telcos the same sort of treatment with regards to time and unknown requirements that they gave to the WISPA people. Sure you don't have the funds, but do you compromise everything until you get the funds? Or do you stand up for what is right and people either support you or not? My suspicion is you'll get the support if you represent what people want. People vote with their feet and pocketbooks. I've seen a lot of good people leave. I've seen a lot of good people forced out because the GOB's could not stand them. And I've seen a lot of good people (mostly everybody on this list) not support WISPA financially. Does that tell you anything? No you don't need more Vendors, you need a reality check so you can get more members. This whole idea that you need more Vendors because they pay the most is, well, so commercial sounding. I'm sure that business principles have to be used to run and account for things, but to raise money? No, that should not be a business. Lonnie On 5/17/07, Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (In response to Lonnie and Mac) 1) It takes money for an organization to do things. Sometimes vendors put up that money so that their customer base thrives. (Some times they do not). 2) It's always hard to get dues-paying members, especially when the most value is the listserv. (Again, it ought to cost something to be here. If they want free, go to ISP-Wireless). 3) Be careful how you represent your relationship to vendors. This is how one org
Re: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
I am not saying that CALEA is not real and I actually agree that is required, BUT, did the group have to agree with the rushed timing and especially agree to meet a standard that was not even defined? They could have argued for some prior consultation to make sure the requirements were not a hardship for their membership. They owed that duty to the members. Instead they mostly tried to beat up anybody who spoke against any aspect of it, and as you just tried, to say the speaker uppers were acting like hippies from the 60's and merely wasting time. I believe in Government and Anarchy would be horrible, so at some point Government must be prepared to listen to people, especially an organization that purports to represent a large group of people. That is WISPA and that was what the group was organized for. Heck, to come back from that meeting and simply parrot everything that had been told to the committee was a waste of time and money to even go to the meeting. To achieve what they achieved could have been done with a conference call, or simply done nothing. The Telcos would never have sent a group and accepted an outcome like that. I'll drop back to lurk mode now. The level of hurt feelings is growing, as evidenced by my private in basket. Lonnie On 5/17/07, Jeff Broadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lonnie, I've been quiet through this whole thing, but I have to speak up here. CALEA is a reality here, and I believe that something like it will soon be a reality in Canada. Shouting at the Capitol building from outside the fence may feel good, but it gets nothing accomplished. The FACT is that if you want to be a service provider you need to have a plan for CALEA compliance. It's everyone's right to say that it doesn't apply to them, but that doesn't make them correct...and if they say it loud and often enough, others may get the wrong idea as well. We are involved heavily on the CALEA committee. Has everything gone exactly the way we would like? No, but that's the nature of any committee (and Wispa is really a large committee), and we are ok with that. Overall, we've been pleased to be part of forming Wispa's direction for CALEA compliance. I believe that we are further along in our efforts, and that Wispa is further along in the overall effort, because we joined in the process. I don't think you are a freeloader. Everything I see and hear says that you are a great guy and a fine businessman. You have been contributing to lists for years and anyone who has been around knows that. I hope that you join in, you'd be a terrific addition to the team. Jeff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 2:55 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list I'm going out on a limb and will voice some things that have been suppressed. I get your point that you think I am a freeloader and do not contribute. My problem for not joining is not a money one, but rather one of principle. I did get involved early on and saw that there was still an old guard of the good old boys. They played favorites early on and still do. Is it proper to support that? It would be very BAD for the Industry if one were to push and fight the GOB's, but, and this in not an excuse, I do not have to time for such fights. There are other more important things to do, so I lurk, and occasionally chime in when I feel something has been really missed or has gone overboard. It is better for me not to get into fights and the Organization does need that either. Do I support WISPA? Partly. When things like CALEA come up and people are sent to talk with the FBI and FCC, what is their game plan? What are they trying to do for the membership? All I saw was a few people were star struck that they actually talked the HEAD of the FBI for CALEA. BIG DEAL. Those people put their pants on one leg at a time like we all do. Did you tell these guys what would be best for the Industry? Did you even know what was good for the Industry? Or did you take your hat in your hand and come back and use all sort of tactics to get people to sign that they would be ready for CALEA compliance, when in fact nobody even knew what that would require? I feel that WISPA should have taken a much harder line on that and other issues. Any members who spoke against what the FBI and FCC told the WISPA group were quickly put down and isolated. It was disgusting to watch. It certainly was not a functioning democracy. It was pretty heavy handed. In short, I have not seen the organization really go to bat for the membership. I can only imagine the crap that would hit the fan if the FBI and FCC were to give the Telcos the same sort of treatment with regards to time and unknown requirements that they gave to the WISPA people. Sure you don't have the funds, but do you compromise everything
Re: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: My suspicion is you'll get the support if you represent what people want. People vote with their feet and pocketbooks. I've seen a lot of good people leave. I've seen a lot of good people forced out because the GOB's could not stand them. And I've seen a lot of good people (mostly everybody on this list) not support WISPA financially. You know Lonnie, I consider you a friend of mine, but I just can't say that I have seen that many people leave. I have seen more people decide to join. Join means actually paying a membership fee not just participate on list. As for the good old boys. I'm not so sure I see much of what you perceive you are seeing. Either there is a whole other board list that left me out or it's just not the situation. I don't consider myself to be a good old boy. I think the other board members who actually contribute behind the scenes do a wonderful job. The hardest working guy on the board, and by far he IS the #1 hardest working guy on the board is Marlon and he is leaving the board voluntarily because of lack of time. How many ways can you split Marlon up? I think Marlon thinks the board is one way too many. And he has decided to open a position for someone else to take a shot at doing something. My respect for Marlon has grown 10 fold. Even if I disagree with some of his opinions, I believe he is just trying his hardest best. I would venture to guess that if we all put down our swords and shields and forgot about those things in the past that have prejudiced us against each other, we would be far more better off and this organization would be an even better asset to the wisp industry. I personally harbor no ill feelings against anyone. I may have my opinions, but in no way shape or form do I have anything but goodwill towards everyone. Sure there are some of us here who are short, crude or rude or rush to judgment, but we are after all just human and none of us are perfect. We make mistakes. I prefer to look past the faults that anyone has and look for the good in everyone. Lonnie, WISPA can still use your support. You asked certain things a couple months ago as a prerequisite to again supporting WISPA with a vendor membership and we have done these things mostly and want to remind you that we are an organization of various opinions / ideas who are just trying to do things that will make being a wisp that much better. There is no good old boys club. Sincerely George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
Inline... Matt Liotta wrote: Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: I am not saying that CALEA is not real and I actually agree that is required, BUT, did the group have to agree with the rushed timing and especially agree to meet a standard that was not even defined? Specifically, CALEA does not require use of a standard to be compliant, which is why none is defined. If you want safe harbor then yes, you are going to need to use a blessed standard, but again that is not required. My understanding is that WISPA was attempting to define their own standard, get it blessed, and then allow the membership to use it as opposed to the very complicated and expensive ATSI standard that exists now. They could have argued for some prior consultation to make sure the requirements were not a hardship for their membership. They owed that duty to the members. Instead they mostly tried to beat up anybody who spoke against any aspect of it, and as you just tried, to say the speaker uppers were acting like hippies from the 60's and merely wasting time. I believe in Government and Anarchy would be horrible, so at some point Government must be prepared to listen to people, especially an organization that purports to represent a large group of people. That is WISPA and that was what the group was organized for. If the membership of WISPA wanted to lobby against CALEA then we had an opportunity almost two years ago. Simply put, by the time CALEA got on enough people's radar to matter there was no longer time to lobby against it. Therefore, the only practical thing to do was to figure out how to comply. I don't want to drag this topic up again, BUT ;) Two years ago, did this apply to ISPs or just VOIP providers? I don't remember anyone on the lists talking about CALEA being for anything other than VOICE in various forms, but maybe my memory is selective, wouldn't be the first and probably won't be the last time. Personally, I don't think WISPA as an organization should work on a CALEA standard. Every member WISP had to become CALEA compliant without WISPA because of the deadline, so WISPA working on a standard now is simply too late. The spectrum issues we were discussing and working on with the FCC before CALEA came up seem much more important now that the CALEA deadline has passed. I strongly disagree with this. I am currently not operating under safe harbor, but that doesn't mean that I don't want to do so in the future. I strongly believe that there should be an open CALEA standard that anyone can meet without having to pay someone a royalty for it. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
Agreed. Lonnie On 5/17/07, Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: I am not saying that CALEA is not real and I actually agree that is required, BUT, did the group have to agree with the rushed timing and especially agree to meet a standard that was not even defined? Specifically, CALEA does not require use of a standard to be compliant, which is why none is defined. If you want safe harbor then yes, you are going to need to use a blessed standard, but again that is not required. My understanding is that WISPA was attempting to define their own standard, get it blessed, and then allow the membership to use it as opposed to the very complicated and expensive ATSI standard that exists now. They could have argued for some prior consultation to make sure the requirements were not a hardship for their membership. They owed that duty to the members. Instead they mostly tried to beat up anybody who spoke against any aspect of it, and as you just tried, to say the speaker uppers were acting like hippies from the 60's and merely wasting time. I believe in Government and Anarchy would be horrible, so at some point Government must be prepared to listen to people, especially an organization that purports to represent a large group of people. That is WISPA and that was what the group was organized for. If the membership of WISPA wanted to lobby against CALEA then we had an opportunity almost two years ago. Simply put, by the time CALEA got on enough people's radar to matter there was no longer time to lobby against it. Therefore, the only practical thing to do was to figure out how to comply. Personally, I don't think WISPA as an organization should work on a CALEA standard. Every member WISP had to become CALEA compliant without WISPA because of the deadline, so WISPA working on a standard now is simply too late. The spectrum issues we were discussing and working on with the FCC before CALEA came up seem much more important now that the CALEA deadline has passed. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Lonnie Nunweiler Valemount Networks Corporation http://www.star-os.com/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
You are comparing apples to grapes. The telcos have an embedded base and have billions of dollars to force their issues. FYI, the original order was in August 2005. So people actually had over 1 year to get ready. (timeline here: http://www.lasarletter.net/drupal/node/9) Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: The Telcos would never have sent a group and accepted an outcome like that. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: I'm going out on a limb and will voice some things that have been suppressed. I get your point that you think I am a freeloader and do not contribute. My problem for not joining is not a money one, but rather one of principle. I did get involved early on and saw that there was still an old guard of the good old boys. They played favorites early on and still do. Is it proper to support that? It would be very BAD for the Industry if one were to push and fight the GOB's, but, and this in not an excuse, I do not have to time for such fights. Do I support WISPA? Partly. When things like CALEA come up and people are sent to talk with the FBI and FCC, what is their game plan? What are they trying to do for the membership? I feel that WISPA should have taken a much harder line on that and other issues. Any members who spoke against what the FBI and FCC told the WISPA group were quickly put down and isolated. It was disgusting to watch. It certainly was not a functioning democracy. It was pretty heavy handed. I am guessing the way Mark K was verbally beat up on the list by many may have led to some of what Lonnie refers to as the Good Old Boys heavy handed words. I guess I am the Prez of that GOB he refers to so here is an excerpt from an April 22nd post in what I believe was my last post toward Mark in regard to his stance on CALEA: (Quote from April 22nd post FCC Admits Mistakes In Measuring Broadband) I think one of WISPA's jobs is to allow some open access for industry debate and discussion about issues. I openly support having Mark and others to air their ideas, even when, and especially when, those ideas conflict with WISPA policy and/or views of leadership. This public list is here to be that forum. To serve the industry we must hear from the industry. WISPA is here to serve our members but it is more important for us to serve the entire industry. That means we have to hear from them and consider what is best for the industry as our first priority. (End Quote) Lonnie, am I part of that GOB or was my support of Mark (who was speaking against the WISPA CALEA effort with great vigor) something you missed previously? If you did not like my words back to Mark from time to time then you should at least acknowledge that I publicly approved of his right to speak out against the CALEA efforts and how WISPA was handling them, despite my own personal feelings on the subject. Nobody in WISPA leadership acted to stop any effort to protest CALEA. In fact there was open support of the efforts of a Senator who was working on a relief plan for small operators. Jack Unger was heading that up. Who was helping small operators for relief of CALEA regulations? I argue it was WISPA as much as anyone else. If you know of others who did more then please send me a URL. Maybe I will send them a donation. Nobody wants CALEA shoved up their backside but somebody has to do the heavy lifting. Somebody has to cover the collective asses of the WISPs who might get a lawful intercept order. That somebody happens to be the WISPA CALEA Committee which is made up of a number of people who are working hard to help. That is their only agenda in regard to the committee work being done. I am sure some will profit from doing the work. Is there anything wrong with that? I say NO. More power to them. Lonnie, I have no problem with you kicking me or WISPA when it is founded. I have my doubts you have a claim here. My advice to you is to lead, follow or get out of the way. Scriv -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
Thanks for the link Peter, that answers my earlier comment to Matt concerning having 2 years to voice opinion. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Peter R. wrote: You are comparing apples to grapes. The telcos have an embedded base and have billions of dollars to force their issues. FYI, the original order was in August 2005. So people actually had over 1 year to get ready. (timeline here: http://www.lasarletter.net/drupal/node/9) Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: The Telcos would never have sent a group and accepted an outcome like that. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
Well, that should bring JohnnyO out of the woodwork! :-) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 4:40 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list You have shown your good nature many, many times George. Thanks for the hard work and peace making. Are you sure you're not Canadian? Lonnie On 5/17/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: My suspicion is you'll get the support if you represent what people want. People vote with their feet and pocketbooks. I've seen a lot of good people leave. I've seen a lot of good people forced out because the GOB's could not stand them. And I've seen a lot of good people (mostly everybody on this list) not support WISPA financially. You know Lonnie, I consider you a friend of mine, but I just can't say that I have seen that many people leave. I have seen more people decide to join. Join means actually paying a membership fee not just participate on list. As for the good old boys. I'm not so sure I see much of what you perceive you are seeing. Either there is a whole other board list that left me out or it's just not the situation. I don't consider myself to be a good old boy. I think the other board members who actually contribute behind the scenes do a wonderful job. The hardest working guy on the board, and by far he IS the #1 hardest working guy on the board is Marlon and he is leaving the board voluntarily because of lack of time. How many ways can you split Marlon up? I think Marlon thinks the board is one way too many. And he has decided to open a position for someone else to take a shot at doing something. My respect for Marlon has grown 10 fold. Even if I disagree with some of his opinions, I believe he is just trying his hardest best. I would venture to guess that if we all put down our swords and shields and forgot about those things in the past that have prejudiced us against each other, we would be far more better off and this organization would be an even better asset to the wisp industry. I personally harbor no ill feelings against anyone. I may have my opinions, but in no way shape or form do I have anything but goodwill towards everyone. Sure there are some of us here who are short, crude or rude or rush to judgment, but we are after all just human and none of us are perfect. We make mistakes. I prefer to look past the faults that anyone has and look for the good in everyone. Lonnie, WISPA can still use your support. You asked certain things a couple months ago as a prerequisite to again supporting WISPA with a vendor membership and we have done these things mostly and want to remind you that we are an organization of various opinions / ideas who are just trying to do things that will make being a wisp that much better. There is no good old boys club. Sincerely George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Lonnie Nunweiler Valemount Networks Corporation http://www.star-os.com/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
Sam Tetherow wrote: I don't want to drag this topic up again, BUT ;) Two years ago, did this apply to ISPs or just VOIP providers? I don't remember anyone on the lists talking about CALEA being for anything other than VOICE in various forms, but maybe my memory is selective, wouldn't be the first and probably won't be the last time. That was my point... no one was talking about it until it was too late. No blame meant; just pointing out that we collectively missed our opportunity. I strongly disagree with this. I am currently not operating under safe harbor, but that doesn't mean that I don't want to do so in the future. I strongly believe that there should be an open CALEA standard that anyone can meet without having to pay someone a royalty for it. I understand your position and respect it. I just disagree that WISPA is the organization to produce such a standard. Seems like Merit's effort is meant to achieve the same thing and is being more broadly backed. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
Sam Tetherow wrote: Thanks for the link Peter, that answers my earlier comment to Matt concerning having 2 years to voice opinion. I didn't mean we had 2 years. What I meant was that it was in 2005 (almost 2 years ago) that the CALEA requirement was issued. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
People were allowed a LOT of leeway in taking shots at Mark. It got very personal, very quickly and I have no idea if people were reprimanded or not. He was definitely excluded by attacks from a select few who did not want any differing views. Why does everything have to hit the fight or flight situation? What is wrong with discussion? I do accept that the time for action was 2 years ago, so I propose to just bow out of this whole discussion and I'll get back to work. Lonnie On 5/17/07, John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: I'm going out on a limb and will voice some things that have been suppressed. I get your point that you think I am a freeloader and do not contribute. My problem for not joining is not a money one, but rather one of principle. I did get involved early on and saw that there was still an old guard of the good old boys. They played favorites early on and still do. Is it proper to support that? It would be very BAD for the Industry if one were to push and fight the GOB's, but, and this in not an excuse, I do not have to time for such fights. Do I support WISPA? Partly. When things like CALEA come up and people are sent to talk with the FBI and FCC, what is their game plan? What are they trying to do for the membership? I feel that WISPA should have taken a much harder line on that and other issues. Any members who spoke against what the FBI and FCC told the WISPA group were quickly put down and isolated. It was disgusting to watch. It certainly was not a functioning democracy. It was pretty heavy handed. I am guessing the way Mark K was verbally beat up on the list by many may have led to some of what Lonnie refers to as the Good Old Boys heavy handed words. I guess I am the Prez of that GOB he refers to so here is an excerpt from an April 22nd post in what I believe was my last post toward Mark in regard to his stance on CALEA: (Quote from April 22nd post FCC Admits Mistakes In Measuring Broadband) I think one of WISPA's jobs is to allow some open access for industry debate and discussion about issues. I openly support having Mark and others to air their ideas, even when, and especially when, those ideas conflict with WISPA policy and/or views of leadership. This public list is here to be that forum. To serve the industry we must hear from the industry. WISPA is here to serve our members but it is more important for us to serve the entire industry. That means we have to hear from them and consider what is best for the industry as our first priority. (End Quote) Lonnie, am I part of that GOB or was my support of Mark (who was speaking against the WISPA CALEA effort with great vigor) something you missed previously? If you did not like my words back to Mark from time to time then you should at least acknowledge that I publicly approved of his right to speak out against the CALEA efforts and how WISPA was handling them, despite my own personal feelings on the subject. Nobody in WISPA leadership acted to stop any effort to protest CALEA. In fact there was open support of the efforts of a Senator who was working on a relief plan for small operators. Jack Unger was heading that up. Who was helping small operators for relief of CALEA regulations? I argue it was WISPA as much as anyone else. If you know of others who did more then please send me a URL. Maybe I will send them a donation. Nobody wants CALEA shoved up their backside but somebody has to do the heavy lifting. Somebody has to cover the collective asses of the WISPs who might get a lawful intercept order. That somebody happens to be the WISPA CALEA Committee which is made up of a number of people who are working hard to help. That is their only agenda in regard to the committee work being done. I am sure some will profit from doing the work. Is there anything wrong with that? I say NO. More power to them. Lonnie, I have no problem with you kicking me or WISPA when it is founded. I have my doubts you have a claim here. My advice to you is to lead, follow or get out of the way. Scriv -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Lonnie Nunweiler Valemount Networks Corporation http://www.star-os.com/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
Thanks Lonnie My only goal for WISPA is to unite us all, divided we fail. Even if I'm off base, I'm just one opinion. George Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: You have shown your good nature many, many times George. Thanks for the hard work and peace making. Are you sure you're not Canadian? Lonnie On 5/17/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: My suspicion is you'll get the support if you represent what people want. People vote with their feet and pocketbooks. I've seen a lot of good people leave. I've seen a lot of good people forced out because the GOB's could not stand them. And I've seen a lot of good people (mostly everybody on this list) not support WISPA financially. You know Lonnie, I consider you a friend of mine, but I just can't say that I have seen that many people leave. I have seen more people decide to join. Join means actually paying a membership fee not just participate on list. As for the good old boys. I'm not so sure I see much of what you perceive you are seeing. Either there is a whole other board list that left me out or it's just not the situation. I don't consider myself to be a good old boy. I think the other board members who actually contribute behind the scenes do a wonderful job. The hardest working guy on the board, and by far he IS the #1 hardest working guy on the board is Marlon and he is leaving the board voluntarily because of lack of time. How many ways can you split Marlon up? I think Marlon thinks the board is one way too many. And he has decided to open a position for someone else to take a shot at doing something. My respect for Marlon has grown 10 fold. Even if I disagree with some of his opinions, I believe he is just trying his hardest best. I would venture to guess that if we all put down our swords and shields and forgot about those things in the past that have prejudiced us against each other, we would be far more better off and this organization would be an even better asset to the wisp industry. I personally harbor no ill feelings against anyone. I may have my opinions, but in no way shape or form do I have anything but goodwill towards everyone. Sure there are some of us here who are short, crude or rude or rush to judgment, but we are after all just human and none of us are perfect. We make mistakes. I prefer to look past the faults that anyone has and look for the good in everyone. Lonnie, WISPA can still use your support. You asked certain things a couple months ago as a prerequisite to again supporting WISPA with a vendor membership and we have done these things mostly and want to remind you that we are an organization of various opinions / ideas who are just trying to do things that will make being a wisp that much better. There is no good old boys club. Sincerely George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
- Original Message - From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 12:56 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list I am not saying that CALEA is not real and I actually agree that is required, BUT, did the group have to agree with the rushed timing and especially agree to meet a standard that was not even defined? Within the law, it's up to us to define the standard. We met with the customer that can give us safe harbor status if they like our solution. We also took the time and money needed to make sure that we could get the RIGHT answers to as many questions as we could. They could have argued for some prior consultation to make sure the requirements were not a hardship for their membership. And how would anyone out here know what we did in that regard? For the reccord, *I* talked to the FBI about CALEA and it's impact on our industry segment. *THEY* knew that there would be problems with the independant operators but didn't know who to talk to and hadn't yet taken the time to find out. We're building a standard so that compliance won't create a hardship for our industry. They owed that duty to the members. We fullfilled that duty as you call it. We did tell them that CALEA, as things stand, is a disaster for our industry. They know and understand. That's one of the reasons that they are working so closely with us to build a more affordable/lower impact solution for those that need it. Instead they mostly tried to beat up anybody who spoke against any aspect of it, and as you just tried, to say the speaker uppers were acting like hippies from the 60's and merely wasting time. Sigh. Beating up? I don't think so. Sure, we called a spade a spade when people said that we were wasting our time in the wrong direction. The time to protest is past, we have to comply now. People fought the battle and lost. It's law and it's not gonna go away. So now what. What can we DO??? (other than jumping up and down pitching a fit???) I believe in Government and Anarchy would be horrible, so at some point Government must be prepared to listen to people, especially an organization that purports to represent a large group of people. That is WISPA and that was what the group was organized for. No, we were organized to make our industry better. Part of that means that we're here to make our operators better. Part of that means that they have the knowledge and skills needed to comply with the laws as they exist. There is NO way to change this law in time to deal with the compliance issue. Some are content to sit on the sidelines and toss gas on the fires. Others are more interested in building fireproof houses. When we're working from a platform built on rocks instead of sand, we can be much more powerful. No sense in wasting time fighting on the sand when solid ground is just a few steps away. Granted, the solid ground in the case of CALEA is rocky and scary, it's also a bit of a hike to get to it. But once there the ground is indeed solid. And, once we're done with our work, there will be a nice easy to walk bridge to the solid ground. You'll still have to walk there but it'll be a much easier trip. Heck, to come back from that meeting and simply parrot everything that had been told to the committee was a waste of time and money to even go to the meeting. To achieve what they achieved could have been done with a conference call, or simply done nothing. I can't believe anyone just said this out loud! Wowsers. We WENT there to learn answers to the questions that people have. Bringing those answers back was one of the goals of the trip! sheesh Guess we should have just kept our heads in the sand and pretended that we didn't know our asses were on fire. I'm floored by that paragraph. The Telcos would never have sent a group and accepted an outcome like that. Um, that's completely wrong. They've also been working closely with the FBI on CALEA compliance. As an industry and in some cases individually. I'll drop back to lurk mode now. The level of hurt feelings is growing, as evidenced by my private in basket. Hurt feelings? No. Not me anyway. I'm certainly flabergasted though. The idea that someone that's not willing to actively help, not involved in any of the processes would ever talk in the certain terms of one that's been there and done that isn't what I'd expect from you. You make it sound as though you (and others arguing this same line) have been privy to all of the backgound information that those of us riding in the front of the bus can see. We're up here busy steering the bus around the corners, making sure that we don't go over the cliff. And there are those looking out the back of the bus telling us we're idiots for not taking the road that we happen to know is a dead end. Don't
Re: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
Okay. So we have two parties here. Those that are loud and boisterous. And the lurkers and people who think WISPA has veered the wrong way. Well, elections are June 15. Your candidates are here: http://nominations.wispa.org/ Writing about what they see as the future. Read it - and ask them questions. Pick the board that will drive this bus where you want it to go. Election rules are here: http://www.wispa.org/?page_id=5 You may have to actually pay to vote, but at $25 per month, that's easy. Regards, Peter Radizeski RAD-INFO, Inc. (813) 963-5884 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: You have shown your good nature many, many times George. Thanks for the hard work and peace making. He is a good man. Are you sure you're not Canadian? Peace making is not something peculiar to Canadians. In fact that is what American's do best. We make peace. Whether the bad guys want it or not. ;) Once it was Pax Romana, but no longer. Now it is Pax Americana. Lonnie Lonnie, you are one of the great Linux developers. Is it really necessary to let politics and opinion determine the direction you will take your business? Hey, nobody says you have to help us become compliant but I can assure you that if you do not make your product meet a standard, you will loose business on this side of that border. Why let that happen? We have to do what we have to do, just like Canada had to do what it did when it pulled it's people from Iraq. I don't think anyone needs to blame anyone here... Nobody needs to believe all sorts of foolishness about what American WISPs have to do or what hoops we have to jump through, either. Why not jump through the hoops and get it over with. If you have a good product and it is profitable, it will be a better product and more profitable to get the certifications taken care of, won't it? -m- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
I will say this though - if you aren't a member, how do you have a say in what the Org does? Because the org is speaking on the behalf of all WISPS not just WISPA members. If the org is speaking on the behalf of all WISPS then all WISPS should be able to have some input on what is being taken to the table, member or not. I offered to help with whatever I could when WISPA started, but I was never taken up on my offer of time. We my wife and I have been in business for over four years now and have just now gotten to the point that I could quit my Day job and focus on our business. So yes the money is a big deal to some companies out there. I am not a WISPA member and I don't consider myself a freeloader here. If I give input to one person a month on a problem they are having I have pulled my weight. As I have mentioned before, everytime I get ready to open up the wallet to join crap like this comes up and makes me wonder if it is a good investment. Talk of free listserver members being freeloaders and not supporting the org is sure as hell not a good way to drive up membership. Thanks, Chadd Thompson -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] What is WISPA? was Promotion of services on-list
Chadd Thompson wrote: I will say this though - if you aren't a member, how do you have a say in what the Org does? Because the org is speaking on the behalf of all WISPS not just WISPA members. If the org is speaking on the behalf of all WISPS then all WISPS should be able to have some input on what is being taken to the table, member or not. It astounds me that you would make the statement above but not understand why it is your obligation to pay the $25 a month it costs to pay your part. If you cannot pay $25 a month for the things we are doing then you are not seeing the bigger picture. You cannot afford not to pay your dues. I have saved several times more than I pay in dues with what I get from WISPA. If you don't then you have simply not looked at what we are offering.. I offered to help with whatever I could when WISPA started, but I was never taken up on my offer of time. We have committees. Our membership helps with dues and time. Why can't you offer a little of both? We my wife and I have been in business for over four years now and have just now gotten to the point that I could quit my Day job and focus on our business. So yes the money is a big deal to some companies out there. So $25 per month is a deal breaker? Maybe you need a stronger association to work to find ways of making you more money. Then again if you cannot see the value then why would you join? I am not a WISPA member and I don't consider myself a freeloader here. If I give input to one person a month on a problem they are having I have pulled my weight. Sorry. That is not enough. We need dues to do the work of what needs to be done in WISPA. We all help each other on the lists. That goes both ways You never get help from people on the lists? That does not help lobby for change in regulatory or legislative efforts. I work for free as basically an executive director for this organization, Marlon works for free basically as a lobbyist. Rick Harnish runs 60 list servers for free. Matt Larsen runs the WISPA website. Do you think we do this so we can get an attaboy? We do this to help guys like you. We won't be here doing it for free forever. Who does the heavy lifting if we all decided to do it your way? Who pays the bills then? As I have mentioned before, everytime I get ready to open up the wallet to join crap like this comes up and makes me wonder if it is a good investment. Talk of free listserver members being freeloaders and not supporting the org is sure as hell not a good way to drive up membership. What is the feel good way for us to convince you that the $3000 worth of free legal help we gave out for CALEA is worth the $250 a year? That is just one thing WISPA has done for WISPs lately. We constantly work to help. If you cannot see it then you just are not paying enough attention to what we do for you guys here. Scriv -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
