Re: In room WIFI - second example
This is a good example of what I was thinking. When it comes to cost the Mikrotik boxes are less than the 1 year maintenance cost of the enterprise vendor. So in theory I could replace the entire population of Mikrotiks every year and still not incur the initial $250k investment of the enterprise solution. In my past job, I spent almost 10 years working with literally thousands of MikroTik devices. My only concern with your plan to use the HAP AC Lite is that the 2.4ghz radio is dual chain, while the 5ghz is single chain. In a high density environment, that single chain may cause you issues depending on how much attenuation you get from walls on 5ghz. With the scripting available on the MikroTik devices, automating configuration is really easy, all it requires is a web server and a database. You have the MikroTik do a web call to the web server with its MAC address as a parameter, and you either return a config script that you customize based on the database, or return a set of variables from the database which the script parses and uses to configure itself. They have recently added TR-069 configuration as well. Also, with as flexible as the MikroTik devices are, you could actually broadcast a neutral SSID as well as a room specific SSID, having the neutral SSID go back to a core router, and having the MikroTik do a private network for the room specific SSID. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/discuss.
RE: In room WIFI - second example
That is what we do with Aruba Aps. They have a mixture of higher feature & lower feature models. Bruce Osborne Senior Network Engineer Network Operations - Wireless (434) 592-4229 LIBERTY UNIVERSITY Training Champions for Christ since 1971 From: Thomas Carter [mailto:tcar...@austincollege.edu] Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 10:48 AM Subject: Re: In room WIFI - second example Sorry for the comment spam. I think my ideal is for someone like Aruba, Cisco, etc to have lower cost options that can be mixed in with the better APs. I want those for the high capacity locations like classrooms, etc and the lower cost options for low usage areas, better density for dorms, etc. Thomas Carter Network & Operations Manager / IT Austin College 900 North Grand Avenue Sherman, TX 75090 Phone: 903-813-2564 www.austincollege.edu<http://www.austincollege.edu/> [http://www.austincollege.edu/images/AusColl_Logo_Email.gif] From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Philippe Hanset Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 9:21 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] In room WIFI - second example Thomas et al., For people looking for creative/more affordable systems (not discussing all the drawbacks etc ;-), you could also look at Benu Networks. http://benu.net/solutions/ It seems to be based on White Label APs with Open Source code and centrally managed offering. (I met their CTO at a conference and it seemed pretty interesting, but I have never tested) Has anyone on the list investigated this system? Philippe Philippe Hanset, CEO www.anyroam.net<http://www.anyroam.net> www.eduroam.us<http://www.eduroam.us> +1 (865) 236-0770 On Feb 21, 2017, at 10:12 AM, Thomas Carter <tcar...@austincollege.edu<mailto:tcar...@austincollege.edu>> wrote: Yes, or in some cases, no budget cuts but increased requirements/demands for wireless. Thomas Carter Network & Operations Manager / IT Austin College 900 North Grand Avenue Sherman, TX 75090 Phone: 903-813-2564 www.austincollege.edu<http://www.austincollege.edu/> From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Ian Lyons Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 8:53 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@listserv.educause.edu> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] In room WIFI - second example A better way to ask the question (perhaps?): Your budget was cut in half but your requirements of installing/having AC Wireless was not changed? Simple answer is something has to give. I understand your pain. From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Thomas Carter Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 9:50 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] In room WIFI - second example In the example I used below, there wasn’t an FTE to eliminate. There is no way that Meraki, Aerohive, and Ruckus can be cheaper, especially when TCO is concerned. That annual license/controller cost for Meraki and Aerohive wouldn’t be there. I guess I’m not making my point well. It seems like most of the responses assume there is enough budget for a top tier solution and this is just about not spending all of it. Imagine your budget for wireless was cut in half. What would you do? Thomas Carter Network & Operations Manager / IT Austin College 900 North Grand Avenue Sherman, TX 75090 Phone: 903-813-2564 www.austincollege.edu<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.austincollege.edu%2F=02%7C01%7Cilyons%40ROLLINS.EDU%7Cd7de358c1cef494f5cbf08d45a68ee6a%7Cb8e8d71a947d41dd81dd8401dcc51007%7C0%7C0%7C636232854208154442=fRj0Ny06vnlMGanBNTm8Gz8qwYgaEtNN4zo%2BfxYHits%3D=0> From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeffrey D. Sessler Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 3:52 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] In room WIFI - second example In the k-12 space, Cisco Meraki, Aerohive, and Ruckus continue to be the big players even in small districts, with others, including Ubiquiti, not making much of a dent. Those solutions also tend to come in at or lower than Ubiquiti. One of the drivers for solutions such as Meraki is that from management’s perspective, the cloud-based platform and extensive support channel means you don’t need all those expensive FTE’s to run it, while at the same time gaining many of the enterprise features you care most about. The reduction of even a single FTE costing say $100K per year including benefits purchases a whole lot of additional wirele
RE: In room WIFI - second example
What we do (and have done when our replacement AP budget was eliminated) was this. Our group provides our best service and documents problems in the areas where the budget was cut. When the students complain loud enough, the budget money suddenly appears. Bruce Osborne Senior Network Engineer Network Operations - Wireless (434) 592-4229 LIBERTY UNIVERSITY Training Champions for Christ since 1971 From: Thomas Carter [mailto:tcar...@austincollege.edu] Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 9:50 AM Subject: Re: In room WIFI - second example In the example I used below, there wasn’t an FTE to eliminate. There is no way that Meraki, Aerohive, and Ruckus can be cheaper, especially when TCO is concerned. That annual license/controller cost for Meraki and Aerohive wouldn’t be there. I guess I’m not making my point well. It seems like most of the responses assume there is enough budget for a top tier solution and this is just about not spending all of it. Imagine your budget for wireless was cut in half. What would you do? Thomas Carter Network & Operations Manager / IT Austin College 900 North Grand Avenue Sherman, TX 75090 Phone: 903-813-2564 www.austincollege.edu<http://www.austincollege.edu/> [http://www.austincollege.edu/images/AusColl_Logo_Email.gif] From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeffrey D. Sessler Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 3:52 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] In room WIFI - second example In the k-12 space, Cisco Meraki, Aerohive, and Ruckus continue to be the big players even in small districts, with others, including Ubiquiti, not making much of a dent. Those solutions also tend to come in at or lower than Ubiquiti. One of the drivers for solutions such as Meraki is that from management’s perspective, the cloud-based platform and extensive support channel means you don’t need all those expensive FTE’s to run it, while at the same time gaining many of the enterprise features you care most about. The reduction of even a single FTE costing say $100K per year including benefits purchases a whole lot of additional wireless hardware. Jeff From: "wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu<mailto:wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu>" <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>> on behalf of Thomas Carter <tcar...@austincollege.edu<mailto:tcar...@austincollege.edu>> Reply-To: "wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu<mailto:wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu>" <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>> Date: Monday, February 20, 2017 at 12:08 PM To: "wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu<mailto:wireless-lan@listserv.educause.edu>" <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] In room WIFI - second example I’m not questioning the cost, just the available options. I feel like I sometimes want to tow a 15’ travel trailer and my options from the established vendors are a Peterbuilt, Mack, and Freightligner at 4x the cost of an F-150 that is adequate to the task. Because of that, there are a lot of small schools, businesses, etc, that are now turning to Ubiquiti, Open Mesh, Mikrotik, etc for their good-enough. I do believe you get what you pay for, but there are limits on what you can afford. Here’s the story of a friend; a campus of APs between 5-10 years old. Over the next 5 years he could only get the budget to replace only ½ of them with a Cisco/Aruba/Ruckus/etc. Over the next 3 years, he could replace all of them with Ubiquiti. What choice do you make? Thomas Carter Network & Operations Manager / IT Austin College 900 North Grand Avenue Sherman, TX 75090 Phone: 903-813-2564 www.austincollege.edu<http://www.austincollege.edu/> [ttp://www.austincollege.edu/images/AusColl_Logo_Email.gif] From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeffrey D. Sessler Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 1:44 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU> Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] In room WIFI - second example On the cost of devices. Some enterprise vendor solutions may be nothing more than the same off-the-shelf design that the consumer models use, including using the same radio code. When there are radio code issues, the vendor goes back to Broadcom, Marvell, or Qualcomm for a fix. Other enterprise vendors go as far as to license the radio source code, where you get unique features not otherwise available with off-the-shelf designs. That said, the enterprise WAP vendor does write the code that does all the rest of the magic in the WAP e.g. interface,
Re: In room WIFI - second example
In my past job, I spent almost 10 years working with literally thousands of MikroTik devices. My only concern with your plan to use the HAP AC Lite is that the 2.4ghz radio is dual chain, while the 5ghz is single chain. In a high density environment, that single chain may cause you issues depending on how much attenuation you get from walls on 5ghz. With the scripting available on the MikroTik devices, automating configuration is really easy, all it requires is a web server and a database. You have the MikroTik do a web call to the web server with its MAC address as a parameter, and you either return a config script that you customize based on the database, or return a set of variables from the database which the script parses and uses to configure itself. They have recently added TR-069 configuration as well. Also, with as flexible as the MikroTik devices are, you could actually broadcast a neutral SSID as well as a room specific SSID, having the neutral SSID go back to a core router, and having the MikroTik do a private network for the room specific SSID. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/discuss.
RE: In room WIFI - second example
1are they really happy or do they know they have nobody to blame but themselves for poor choices? Just another thought. Bruce Osborne Senior Network Engineer Network Operations - Wireless (434) 592-4229 LIBERTY UNIVERSITY Training Champions for Christ since 1971 From: Hunter Fuller [mailto:hf0...@uah.edu] Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 1:53 PM Subject: Re: In room WIFI - second example Bruce, I have had this mindset for a long time, but I've been questioning it recently. Due to a political situation I won't bother going into, our dorm residents are able to purchase internet connections from wideopenwest or Comcast. They set up their own APs and some of our dorms are rogue nightmares. We've made a heavy push to 5GHz to combat this. But it made me wonder... what is up with this? These students set up the cheapest APs they can find at Best Buy, blasting at 10 watts of power on 2GHz, right next to 3 other students doing the same thing. All students are happy with their comcast connection and wireless performance. Meanwhile UAH invests thousands upon thousands into enterprise wireless and it simply cannot operate under those conditions...? It just makes me wonder, is all... On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 07:06 Osborne, Bruce W (Network Operations) <bosbo...@liberty.edu<mailto:bosbo...@liberty.edu>> wrote: My first thought is this. Are these boxes centrally managed? It appears you are using WPA2-Personal. If so, it would be a pain to need to revisit each box every year to change the PSK. How is channel coordination happening to minimize interference? How will you handle misbehaving devices DOSing the network while minimizing the impact to roommates? How are you steering clients to use 5GHz for better performance? There are reasons there are Enterprise wireless systems with enterprise encryption options. -Original Message- From: Michael Blaisdell [mailto:mblaisd...@francis.edu<mailto:mblaisd...@francis.edu>] Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 8:52 PM Subject: In room WIFI - second example I had posted to the group a few months ago about WAPs in each dorm room. I received a number of comments that were very insightful. Most agreed that channel plan in the 2.4 would be next to impossible and the best plan would be to turn off maybe every other radio and turn back the power. As for 5.8 I believe we agreed that channel width should be a minimum because we are not going for speed, we are going to coverage. I am back at the table with another twist. I have been testing Microtik HAP AC lite boxes with 4 10/100 ports and both 2.4 and 5.8 radios. I also have the box setup as a router for their room. I think we can call it a DAN. Dorm Area Network. The students in the room share a common DHCP server and have NAT access to the campus LAN. This allows the students to add devices in their rooms as they need to without affecting the network. The HAP also has two way firewall config so I can block all the ports and services I would normally but I can do it at the end point. I guess the dorms are running like an individual household and I am the ISP. Each room has a unique SSID and authentication. This is just a test in a few locations at this point but it has worked great. I am looking for feedback like last time. Please feel free to cut hard and deep if necessary. Security issues could be my biggest issues. Thanks Michael Blaisdell Director of Network Services IT Services Learning Commons/Library Saint Francis University 117 Evergreen Drive Loretto, PA 15940 814-472-3242 http://www.francis.edu The best way to predict the future is to invent it. Alan Kay ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/discuss. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/discuss. -- -- Hunter Fuller Network Engineer VBRH Annex B-1 +1 256 824 5331 Office of Information Technology The University of Alabama in Huntsville Systems and Infrastructure ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/discuss. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/discuss.
RE: In room WIFI - second example
My first thought is this. Are these boxes centrally managed? It appears you are using WPA2-Personal. If so, it would be a pain to need to revisit each box every year to change the PSK. How is channel coordination happening to minimize interference? How will you handle misbehaving devices DOSing the network while minimizing the impact to roommates? How are you steering clients to use 5GHz for better performance? There are reasons there are Enterprise wireless systems with enterprise encryption options. -Original Message- From: Michael Blaisdell [mailto:mblaisd...@francis.edu] Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 8:52 PM Subject: In room WIFI - second example I had posted to the group a few months ago about WAPs in each dorm room. I received a number of comments that were very insightful. Most agreed that channel plan in the 2.4 would be next to impossible and the best plan would be to turn off maybe every other radio and turn back the power. As for 5.8 I believe we agreed that channel width should be a minimum because we are not going for speed, we are going to coverage. I am back at the table with another twist. I have been testing Microtik HAP AC lite boxes with 4 10/100 ports and both 2.4 and 5.8 radios. I also have the box setup as a router for their room. I think we can call it a DAN. Dorm Area Network. The students in the room share a common DHCP server and have NAT access to the campus LAN. This allows the students to add devices in their rooms as they need to without affecting the network. The HAP also has two way firewall config so I can block all the ports and services I would normally but I can do it at the end point. I guess the dorms are running like an individual household and I am the ISP. Each room has a unique SSID and authentication. This is just a test in a few locations at this point but it has worked great. I am looking for feedback like last time. Please feel free to cut hard and deep if necessary. Security issues could be my biggest issues. Thanks Michael Blaisdell Director of Network Services IT Services Learning Commons/Library Saint Francis University 117 Evergreen Drive Loretto, PA 15940 814-472-3242 http://www.francis.edu The best way to predict the future is to invent it. Alan Kay ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/discuss. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/discuss.
