Re: [WSG] New CMS / Framework
On Wednesday, January 28, 2004, at 05:21 PM, Mark Stanton wrote: That's a very big call - best of luck to you. But before you jump in can I suggest you look at http://farcry.daemon.com.au. Ok its Coldfusion based not PHP, but CF will cost you a few thousand dollars that is a tiny amount to pay for a product (farcry) of this quality. This is seriously a mature, powerful product there is an extremely active development community behind it. Please do yourself a favour a have a long hard look at this even if its just to review what a good CMS should do. I certainly can't see myself getting into a CFM application -- it's just too far removed from what I do everyday with PHP and Perl, and throws my years of experience virtually out the window. But I do like to keep my options open. However, I've checked out the website, and it does look like it promises a lot. However, the lack of a live demo, and the fact that I don't have anywhere I could install it myself really makes it difficult to evaluate it on any level at all. I've spent years working with/on CMS's, and I know that the only way to get a feel for an application is by getting your hands dirty, not reading documentation and marketing material. Thanks for the input and suggestions though! Justin French * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Image Gallery alternative
Hi Robert,
Your option looks great!
The funny thing is that when you get down to fine details of semantics, you
can argue about a range of different solutions to any problem - divs, dl's
and ul's could all be used successfully in creating image galleries.
Bottom line - we should all be striving to avoid options that are obviously
un-sematic (is that a word?). This would include using dl's and blockquotes
for indenting, stying p's to look like headings (this used to be one of my
tricks before I saw the light)... Basically avoiding the use of any element
that has no meaning or incorrect meaning if the CSS is not present.
:)
Russ
I was searching the web for a good way to do a thumbnail gallery and
came across the discussion on this list between Russ Weakley and Justin
French. I came up with this alternative to the ways that they wrote
about (Russ - each image in its own DL, Justing - each image in its own
DIV).
What I did was to make it a plain UL with the gallery class applied to
the UL, and the image and description being in a LI, which is floated.
It looks to me like less markup in the HTML portion, but a little more
in the CSS.
Here's the code (using the same content as used by them):
style type=text/css media=screen
body
{
margin: 20px;
padding: 0;
font: 90% arial, sans-serif;
background-color: #fff;
}
ul.gallery
{
list-style: none;
margin-left: 0;
padding-left: 0;
}
.gallery li
{
border: 1px solid #000;
background-color: #ddd;
width: 102px;
text-align: center;
padding: 10px;
float: left;
margin-right: 1em;
}
li img
{
display: block;
border: 1px solid #000;
width: 100px;
height: 100px;
}
li a
{
display: block;
font-weight: bold;
margin: 5px 0 3px 0;
}
/style
/head
body
h1Unordered list for image gallery/h1
ul class=gallery
li
img src=flower.jpg alt=
a href=#Title here/a
Description here
/li
li
img src=flower.jpg alt=
a href=#Title here/a
Description here
/li
li class=gallery
img src=flower.jpg alt=
a href=#Title here/a
Description here
/li
/ul
/body
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
*
Re: [WSG] New CMS / Framework
While ideally I would address nearly every point in Mike's email, it would benefit probably few of the members on this list and have little effect on his opinion of Daemon. Most importantly and likely, it would serve as a catalyst for an extended debate of off-topic technologies. For anyone interested in the open source FarCry CMS, please see: http://farcry.daemon.com.au/ For discussion of its excellent features and near limitless extensibility, I would encourage you to find out from real developers (some of whom have never touched Spectra) around the world at: news://lists.daemon.com.au/farcry-dev / [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please allay any fears about shared hosting by speaking with professional web hosting companies such as: http://www.fasthit.net/ http://www.austiger.com.au/ Or email me directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Regards, Ben http://www.daemon.com.au/ Committed to web development communities since 1995 * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] RE: New CMS / Framework
On Wednesday, January 28, 2004, at 09:05 PM, Geoff Bowers wrote: Building a comprehensive CMS API is a deceptively difficult task. There are so many open source frameworks, let alone commercial ones, to suit every language preference -- I definitely recommend against starting from scratch unless your requirements are very modest. I'm aware it's a lot of work, but it's the only way I'll get what I want (judging by the plethora of CMS's I've already tried under $1000). I've done plenty of background work already. For a lot of this, I just have to glue the pieces together. Justin French * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] New CMS / Framework
I dont know if any of the Daemon guys are on this list (maybe Ben Bishop is) to reply to this, but while I am sure Mike has done the homework he needs I was concerned about a couple of the statements and thought I would comment/clarify.. I am not sure what is meant by too far-removed from coldfusion to use. FarCry is a CMS as well as a Framework. But I have found that with any CMS you have to learn a new environment. And FarCry is built on all the current CFMX type of technology - lots of components and object orientation. So if these technologies are still unfamiliar, it may be difficult to extend FarCry. You DO have to know CFMX well. But it is still all Cold Fusion. As far as spectra-head - I never liked Spectra (hated it in fact) but I love FarCry. IF you want to do anything different, you better be willing to learn an entire new vocabulary. Every comprehensive CMS I have ever used has required me to think in a different way and has always had it's own vocabulary. I am not sure what is meant by anything different either. With the new site we have released, we are doing LOTS of different things (including running a HTTP request out to a third party provide to deposit content right into a container on our splash page) than what FarCry provides. We have even integrated some legacy items from our old site into FarCry. You only have to look at the FarCry reference sites to see HOW different every instance of FarCry can be. http://farcry.daemon.com.au/go/features/farcry-sites I don't think it was ever designed with shared environments in mind I disagree with this statement. The FarCry core (which you should only ever deploy once in a shared environment) has been deliberately designed to have multiple FarCry applications running on the one box. When the instances are installed correctly, the Admin Console is able to automatically switch between the instances based on the domain name of the site. finding out how to set it up for shared environments The FarCry developers list has posted many solutions to setting up FarCry in a shared environment. While I can understand that the solutions may not have worked for some people, there is no lack of information on how to go about doing it. There is a lot of the app outside the site, and that is a worry in a shared environment. I would also disagree with this. I think it reduces worries for a shared environment. You don't want multiple copies of a core piece of code running if you want to maintain a standard platform for all your FarCry instances. You want the core code in one place - outside of where any of the clients can touch it. Only the system admin should be updating the core code. However, requiring the shared code to be under the control of the site administrator means your shared host must agree to host FarCry. There are several hosting companies in Australia that are prepared to do this. Would you want to run multiple versions of Cold Fusion on the same box and control them yourself ? Nope, you leave that up to the administrator of the shared box (and they dont want you to touch it). So too would you leave updating FarCry code in a shared environment to the sys admin. One of the main reasons for having a CMS is you want to allow non-technical people to update the site safely. I tried my test app on a dozen non-technical people, and not one of them could find out how to add a page without having to be shown where it was. FarCry Admin (where you add in new stuff and maintain old stuff) has been well recieved by our non-technical staff (who maintain all the general content pages as well as many of our back database systems which have all the admin tools created as plug-ins to the FarCry Admin Console). They love it and don't have any problems using it. Yes, they needed some training, but it was minimal and would be expected with any new system. Every document that is edited is done so in DRAFT mode and the document is then submitted for approval by a central place. That is pretty safe from my perspective. Am I a FarCry evangelist?? Yes - certainly. Gary Menzel Web Development Manager IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000 PH: 07 333 44 828 FX: 07 3834 0828 If this communication is not intended for you and you are not an authorised recipient of this email you are prohibited by law from dealing with or relying on the email or any file attachments. This prohibition includes reading, printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, storing or in any other way dealing or acting in reliance on the information. If you have received this email in error, we request you contact ABN AMRO Morgans Limited immediately by returning the email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and destroy the original. We will refund any reasonable costs associated with notifying ABN AMRO Morgans. This email is confidential and may contain privileged client information.
Re: [WSG] CSS file size question
On 27 Jan 2004, at 22:40, Justin French wrote: all the template declarations etc.)? I think you should have your base CSS file (things common to all pages), and then link a separate file for any page-specific requirements. So, you're suggesting, as you state the base file, then, a CSS file per page that requires one? What I have at present, is one CSS file which could be considered the base file... hold all declarations concerning the template files and standard HTML amendments (p h1 etc. CSS). Then, I have a panels.css file, specifically just for the graphical panels that are used (this is only about 10 declarations). Finally, if I was to follow what you say, I would then have as many CSS files as is needed (1 per page), and the individual page would link to the relevant one. Thanks for advice and reassurance (and taking the time to answer a long-winded e-mail!) Justin French * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * Kind regards Martin Chapman -- Web development, identity and design. co-ord.com Limited 9 Tynwald Road West Kirby Merseyside CH48 4DA Tel: +44 (0)151 625 1443 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.co-ord.com -- * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] CMS Discussion
Hi folks, The [WSG] New CMS / Framework is now getting off-topic. I was willing for it to go on as it had a good chance of turning back to being about Web Standards. E.g. methodologies for making sure that user entered content (be it plain text or widget written HTML) is filtered appropriately to be valid (even when pasted from Word), the use of CSS for layout in the templates, support for less popular browsers, Web Services and syndication mechanisms etc. Please focus on these and similar issues rather than getting caught up in the product, whether for or against. CF-Aussie may be a better place for the FarCry discussion (the FarCry lists seem to be more support based than discussion). Do we have enough interest to start a separate CMS list? It's not the first time we have had CMS discussions here and they generally waver off topic for this list. If you would be interested in a separate list just on Content Management (and yes this includes Dreamweaver as it is a valid tool to manage content), please let us know at [EMAIL PROTECTED] and if we get more than 10 interested participants, I'll set it up. Regards, Peter (ListDad) * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] New CMS / Framework
I don't want to continue this off-topic discussion, because it'll just turn one of the best technical lists I've ever been a part of. There are lots of responses to my post that I feel like I want to follow up, but it's off topic. I just want to make a couple of comments to clarify what I said earlier, then I'll shut up entirely about FarCry on this list. ... [a] I was not taking a sideswipe at Daemon. I greatly admire the company and they're damn good at what they do. But they're a very advanced company. They can easily be talking over the heads of mere mortals like me without even realising it. Many's the so-called simple thing I've seen Geoff and others from Daemon demonstrate only to find it's far from simple. Perhaps that reflects poorly on me, but I know I'm far from alone. [b] Shared hosting: no one's been able to demonstrate that you can put FarCry on a shared environment in a way that makes business sense. The companies that host it all have their own servers. The vast majority of hosting companies don't own their own servers, or even have dedicated servers. In the more usual situation there are several hosting companies sharing the system, and to put the FarCry core files on a server not owned by me, makes them available to my competitors on the same machine. To take my FarCry host business to my competitors and run it there when I have a perfectly good CFMX6.1 system I already pay for and am working hard to fill with my own clients makes no business sense. All I want is for someone to show me that I can install it and allow my clients to use it but not let my competitors on the same system use it without doing any of the hard work. As I said there are other points I want to take up but its all off-topic. Now I'll shut up on this whole issue. Back to CSS/Standards compliance. Sorry for pouring petrol on the fire Russ. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Real world use of standards
Clients need to be informed of the benefits of standards and most will see the value right away. However compromises on design and functionality can offset the benefits quite quickly. The old saying The customers always right seems to fit here. Government departments are _mostly_ aware of standards especially the accessibility guidelines, so they push for standards compliant sites. It may eventually become mandatory for Governments. In house here its becoming more important, some are more passionate about it than others. It is frustrating when work travels up the work flow and someone decides to bung in invalid markup, or maybe a particular application framework doesn't yet support the markup correctly. If IE wasn't such a pain, then standards are really a no brainer, write once works everywhere, hmmm one day.. soon I hope.. Cheers Chris Blown On Thu, 2004-01-29 at 11:06, Bradley Wright wrote: I have a question for you all, given that quite a few of you work for large, CMS-type companies and the collective level of experience here is seemingly very large: How many of you have experienced working for companies/clients which actively embrace the standards and protocols/working methods we discuss here every day? It seems to me that very often dealing with clients and client needs makes using standards to the fullest an impractical thing at best. I'd like to know how many of you have experienced work-places where standards are extremely important, and not just an afterthought in the production process. This is perhaps a little off-topic, but I think it's worth a discussion because the PRACTICAL, real-world use of standards is surely of utmost importance to us all. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Real world use of standards
On Thursday, January 29, 2004, at 11:06 AM, Bradley Wright wrote: I have a question for you all, given that quite a few of you work for large, CMS-type companies and the collective level of experience here is seemingly very large: How many of you have experienced working for companies/clients which actively embrace the standards and protocols/working methods we discuss here every day? It seems to me that very often dealing with clients and client needs makes using standards to the fullest an impractical thing at best. I'd like to know how many of you have experienced work-places where standards are extremely important, and not just an afterthought in the production process. This is perhaps a little off-topic, but I think it's worth a discussion because the PRACTICAL, real-world use of standards is surely of utmost importance to us all. Glenn. I believe embracing web standards is something that starts with the the technical team (web developers, etc), NOT at a management or board of directors level. In short, I don't give my clients much of an option, and in some cases, don't even bother to educate them as to what I'm doing or why -- I feel it's an important step for the web, and by making my websites as forward compatible and accessible as possible, I'm not doing any harm in the process (unless of course they have a large NN4 readership). To me, starting a project with XHTML for semantic mark-up, CSS2 for presentation, and at least priority 1 of the accessibility guidelines is now (after a very short time) an automatic and effortless process. In fact, the other week I had to build something with tables for layout, and it took me twice as long (muttering things like this would be so easy with a div and some CSS). A couple of google searches should help you get a huge list of reading material, particularly this one: http://www.google.com/search?q=business+case+web+standards ... of which I'll highlight this one: http://www.adaptivepath.com/publications/essays/archives/000266.php There's heaps on ALA, of which I grabbed just one: http://alistapart.com/articles/tohell/ Then read everything here: http://www.webstandards.org/ And this: http://www.andybudd.com/blog/archives/000143.html After reading all that, you'll probably ask yourself why aren't I doing this?, and you'll start implementing changes right away. I don't believe it takes any extra time of effort (perhaps 5% at *worst*) to develop new projects with standards and accessibility in mind, once you're up to speed... this value can more than likely be recouped in bandwidth costs alone on larger websites, and there's always the threat of a lawsuit :) Justin French * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Real world use of standards
Bradley, First of all, this is not off-topic at all. In fact, I reckon it's the most important issue facing developers/designers on this list. Here are some comments based on Peter's and my experience.. Take or leave as you wish. :) CLIENTS We always sit down with our clients and discuss (amongst other things) target audiences and browser levels. If we feel the client's audience is suited to a full css site, we let the client know our preferred decision and the effects this will have (in simple terms). Generally, this is enough for most clients and they are happy for us to proceed. If the client is obsessed with further info, we outline the options: option 1: 1. faster loading - better for user and client 2. easier to maintain - cheaper for client updates 2. work better across modern and future browsers - better for all 3. provide printer specific options without any new pages needed 4. provide more accessible code - better for specific users and devices 5. ability to provide assistive options like style switchers. These benefits will be available to around 90-95% of your audience. At the same time, no browsers or devices will be alienated in the process - old browsers will get all content, just with slightly reduced visual formatting. option 2 1. table based pages - slower rendering and more code 2. harder to maintain 3. less accessible to people and devices 4. no special print options This option is aimed at the lower 10% of your audience at the cost of the other 90%. We have not had a client choose option 2 yet. Having said that, there may be times when option 2 is the best - if you are dealing with a high percentage of NN4 users or a specific intranet etc. BOSSES / MANAGEMENT Most bosses focus on the bottom line. If you need to get up to speed on developing with web standards, this takes time so the boss or management will have to pay for this in some form. However, in the long run, the company benefits (faster development, better provision of service), and the companies clients benefit (see list above). If you want to start pushing web standards in your work place, it becomes a case of sitting the bosses/management down and outlining the aims, costs (generally in staff time) and benefits to all players (boss, staff, audience). In early 2002, this is what Peter and I did with our employer at the time. We asked for some time off to learn about standards, with the aim to the benefit us and our users. We were successful. PART OF THE PROCESS After some time in the wilderness (while you learn the ins and outs), building with web standards become part of your process - part of everyday work. As Justin said, going back is VERY hard. ONE STEP AT A TIME The key point about standards is that they are not a black and white issue. We are all moving towards standards. While some developers have made more progress than others, we are all still learning (I know that sounds corny!). The key, when beginning, is to focus on achievable steps. If you only achieve the removing of all font tags and replacing them with CSS1, you have made a huge step forward. If you make your code more valid - even if you don¹t achieve 100% valid code - you are making progress. If you tackle some accessibility issues on your site, you are making progress. If you keep a basic table for layout, but use CSS for all other stying, you have made progress... The big advantage that we all have now is resources. There is a huge wealth of tutorials, blogs, books, mail-lists and people that can help you start or continue the process. End rave... Russ I have a question for you all, given that quite a few of you work for large, CMS-type companies and the collective level of experience here is seemingly very large: How many of you have experienced working for companies/clients which actively embrace the standards and protocols/working methods we discuss here every day? It seems to me that very often dealing with clients and client needs makes using standards to the fullest an impractical thing at best. I'd like to know how many of you have experienced work-places where standards are extremely important, and not just an afterthought in the production process. This is perhaps a little off-topic, but I think it's worth a discussion because the PRACTICAL, real-world use of standards is surely of utmost importance to us all. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] printer speific pages
Can I ask to be pointed to the best tutorial for making printer specific pages on CSS sites? Thanks Peter -- peter gifford universal head design that works visit 7/43 bridge road stanmore nsw 2048 australia call(+612) 9517 1466 fax (+612) 9565 4747 email [EMAIL PROTECTED] sitewww.universalhead.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] printer specific pages
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/goingtoprint/ From the god of CSS himself - Eric :) Can I ask to be pointed to the best tutorial for making printer specific pages on CSS sites? Thanks Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Definition lists -- mid-weekly challenge
Sent this message before 10am today, and it seems to have disappeared. Will try again. This and following message. Cameron, Can't be bothered trying it Boy, that sure puts this newbie upstart in his place. :) but you could float the image left, leave the other elements non-floated, block, with left margins equal to the image width. Thanks for this advice. It's put me on track, even if it's not quite right. So the trick is to make the dt and dd display as block level elements? It looks as though I was going overboard with floats. View it here: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~hughtodd/dltest/ (Clearing the dl triggers a bug in IE5 Mac in which floats wrongly inherit the 'clear' setting from their containing elements, making it impossible to sit the text elements alongside the floating dt img. See http://www.macedition.com/cb/ie5macbugs/index.html#floatclearbug ) And seriously, folks, is this the wrong place to ask this sort of question, or is the WSG too Olympian for that? -Hugh * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Calendar Day Highlighting
Anton, Hi all, I throw together a simple calendar that highlights each day on :hover, hope you find it intresting (given the tight code): http://standardice.com/experimental/calendarhighlighting.html Works beautifully in Safari and Mozilla on the Mac. Amazingly lean code. Splits apart at day 11 on IE5 Mac, and mouseover doesn't work. Nor does it work in Opera 6 Mac. Guess they don't support mouseovers on elements other than DIVs? All the best! -Hugh Todd * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] printer speific pages
Peter, The best article I have found is at A List Apart http://www.alistapart.com/articles/goingtoprint/ Being written by the CSSS Guru Eric Meyer, you know it is going to be good. Regards Gino --- Universal Head [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can I ask to be pointed to the best tutorial for making printer specific pages on CSS sites? Thanks Peter -- peter gifford universal head design that works visit 7/43 bridge road stanmore nsw 2048 australia call (+612) 9517 1466 fax (+612) 9565 4747 email [EMAIL PROTECTED] site www.universalhead.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * http://greetings.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Greetings Send your love online with Yahoo! Greetings - FREE! * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] Mail problem this morning and CMS list
Yeah, sorry folks, had a server issue this morning so if you think a message didn't get through, please check the archive and send it again if it isn't there. http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/archive.cfm I have 5 people for the CMS list and I assume that some replies to this request may have gone astray as well. So rather than bother with it any further, it's done. If you want to be on the CMS mailing list please send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with Subscribe cms (no quotes) in the BODY of the message. Regards, Peter Sent this message before 10am today, and it seems to have disappeared. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Real world use of standards
My situation is as follows: Here at BHP Billiton, I am part of the Global Intranet Team. I wrote the CSS/XHTML for their Global Intranet and then wrote standards compliant templates for other people within the business to use to build their own intranets. We were able to adopt W3C standards and XHTML/CSS for all this because, basically, before our team was put together, there were no standards at all - intranets were built by whoever with whatever. We wrote documentation, style guides etc emphasing standards compliance as well. This went fine for a year or two. Our team was rebuilding old non-compliant intranets and making them standards compliant and building new intranets with CSS/XHTML, W3C standards etc. Since that time, new CMS's have been bought into sections of the company (against our protests) that do not adhere to these standards, and things are starting to go backwards in some areas. It's sort of like two steps forward - one step back when it comes to web standards here, which can be frustrating. In a company this size, it does take a lot of championing the cause by the right people to get something like web standards in place. We're making progress, but it's a battle. Regards, David McDonald http://www.davidmcdonald.org Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Real world use of standards Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 11:06:45 +1100 I have a question for you all, given that quite a few of you work for large, CMS-type companies and the collective level of experience here is seemingly very large: How many of you have experienced working for companies/clients which actively embrace the standards and protocols/working methods we discuss here every day? It seems to me that very often dealing with clients and client needs makes using standards to the fullest an impractical thing at best. I'd like to know how many of you have experienced work-places where standards are extremely important, and not just an afterthought in the production process. This is perhaps a little off-topic, but I think it's worth a discussion because the PRACTICAL, real-world use of standards is surely of utmost importance to us all. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
