Re: [WSG] Fixed vs flexible layouts
Lee Roberts wrote: Andy wanted to know what the WCAG working group members had to say about fixed and scalable width layouts. I am a member of the working group. Well, I gave an education and it seems the topic has grown to now include more about mobile devices. The purpose of variable width or elastic designs is to help people by allowing them to increase their font size without destroying the design. Yes, you will end up with right-scrolls. It doesn't matter what you do. Thanks for that Lee. So are you saying that the sole purpose of checkpoint 3.7 is to accommodate the resizing of layouts along with text? Does that mean in this case, pixels aren't being considered as relative units, contrary to what the specs say? I have to admit that I have huge problems with the guidelines. Most notably because they don't really tell you why each checkpoint is necessary and how failure to comply can reduce accessibility. Some are obvious, but many others aren't. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Fixed vs flexible layouts
Yes, Checkpoint 3.7 is for resizing along with text. Pixels are not scalable. A pixel is a pixel regardless of how one might look at it. As I recall on a 800x600 screen resolution IE used 1.25 microns for a pixel while Netscape uses 1 micron. On the 1024x768 I recall that IE uses .8 micron for a pixel while Netscape uses .5 micron. Of course, I'm an old guy so my memory may be a little off. That's why looking at pixeled fonts in IE looks larger than pixeled fonts in Netscape. Mac and Linux are different as well. But, a pixel is supposed to be 1 micron. So, technically a pixeled font is not scalable. It does not resize. Only the monitor resolution resizes. Pixels are absolutes. There are many holes in WCAG1. WCAG2 is attempting to fix those problems. I hope this helps. Lee Roberts http://www.applepiecart.com http://www.roserockdesign.com -Original Message- From: Andy Budd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 4:26 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Fixed vs flexible layouts Lee Roberts wrote: Andy wanted to know what the WCAG working group members had to say about fixed and scalable width layouts. I am a member of the working group. Well, I gave an education and it seems the topic has grown to now include more about mobile devices. The purpose of variable width or elastic designs is to help people by allowing them to increase their font size without destroying the design. Yes, you will end up with right-scrolls. It doesn't matter what you do. Thanks for that Lee. So are you saying that the sole purpose of checkpoint 3.7 is to accommodate the resizing of layouts along with text? Does that mean in this case, pixels aren't being considered as relative units, contrary to what the specs say? I have to admit that I have huge problems with the guidelines. Most notably because they don't really tell you why each checkpoint is necessary and how failure to comply can reduce accessibility. Some are obvious, but many others aren't. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Fixed vs flexible layouts
Andy Budd wrote: Lee Roberts wrote: Andy wanted to know what the WCAG working group members had to say about fixed and scalable width layouts. I am a member of the working group. Well, I gave an education and it seems the topic has grown to now include more about mobile devices. The purpose of variable width or elastic designs is to help people by allowing them to increase their font size without destroying the design. Yes, you will end up with right-scrolls. It doesn't matter what you do. Thanks for that Lee. So are you saying that the sole purpose of checkpoint 3.7 is to accommodate the resizing of layouts along with text? Does that mean in this case, pixels aren't being considered as relative units, contrary to what the specs say? I have to admit that I have huge problems with the guidelines. Most notably because they don't really tell you why each checkpoint is necessary and how failure to comply can reduce accessibility. Some are obvious, but many others aren't. Andy Budd If I can just add my 2 cents worth. 3.7 has to do with using markup in the correct semantic way. HTML is for marking up content. q and blockquote have meaning to user agents and parsers that are parsing documents for semantic value. If a designer was using this purely as a visual formatting technique, a blind person would have a different understanding of the way the information is communicated, because that information is being communicated via another device as a quoted block of text. If the designer wants to indent something in their design, which in itself could even be said to convey a visual semantic meaning, then they should do that with CSS. The problem is, that when TBL first adapted HTML from SGML, he only took 66% of the equation, he took from the SGML family HTML and DTD, but left out the DSSL component, and this oversight was latter addressed with CSS. Because there was no DSSL equivalent in the early drafts, default value for displaying the various elements are handled by the browsers... ie indent blockquote. pixels are relative units, but em is regarded as a far better representation of a relative unit from an accessibility point of view. The same principle is true in software development. But designers have to work with how well or how poorly user agents support the designs they want to implement. If you are having trouble understanding the guidelines I would suggest that you do go back and look at the history of human interface guidelines for digital devices and try to find the common thread. If you do this you will begin to see how WCAG evolved, and that the basic principles are consistent. You could also discuss specific checkpoints here, or on the W3C WAI Interest Group list, or the one at WebAIM. Regards Geoff * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Fixed vs flexible layouts
Well i think i found the best of both worlds... and Fluid/Elastic Design http://www.southtyneside.info/project_area/southtyneside/xhtml/elastic.asp :) * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] sitecheck on Mac (Safari, IE5) and Win (IE 5/5.5) please?
Thorsten wrote: hi, i'm working on a site ( http://www.thorstenpeh.de/job/ ) using my first (tadaa!) css layout, but due to limited hardware, i can't check my site on the Mac platform. never mind the problems, i fixed most myself. still need feedback on MAC though... anyone? - Thorsten * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] sitecheck on Mac (Safari, IE5) and Win (IE 5/5.5) please?
Hi Thorsten I have had a quick test on netscape 7.1 - all ok. Netscape 6.1 - in the section arbeitsproben the links seitenanfang and details do not work. Otherwise looks good. However IE 5.2.3 had the most problems. 1. in navigation the selected section remains underlined. 2. sections contact, bewerbung, ubermich the 'contentbox' has a scrollbar along the bottom which scrolls to the right only a few pixels. 3. between the 'gallery_image' div and the 'image_caption' div there is some white space which pushes the text down so the blue border at the bottom of the 'imagebox' cuts through the text. 4. the arbeitsproben section only has no styling at all as if its not picking up the style sheet I can only see the text and images. 5. when trying to view the screenshots IE complains that it doesnt know how to handle the mime type 'image/png' ie. the screenshots cant be viewed. Good luck. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] San Fran Examiner Standards Redesign
I just read that the SF examiner has had an XHTML redesign. It looks very nice and there's not a TABLE in sight. http://www.sfexaminer.com/home/ It didn't *actually* validate but it came down to one missing slash so I think we can forgive them. Have You Validated Your Code? John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 2110 Senior Developer, ABC Online http://www.abc.net.au/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] After CSS?
Sorry if I'm a little late to the part on this one, but I think you can rest a little on CSS now -- CSS3 is s far away from being usable, because we're still trying to get IE6 to play well with CSS2, and we're STILL seeing really buggy browsers like IE5 all over our logs. There's much more to web design than CSS/XHTML though -- here's some food for thought: 1. Accessibility (508, WAIG, etc) will eventually become law, if it hasn't already in your area. Most of the requirements are really easy, so there's no excuse for not getting at least 95% accessible. 2. Usability (making something *truly* intuitive to understand and interactive with) is the difference between a good interface, and a bad one. You'll spend your whole life perfecting this skill, so you might as well get started now! 3. DOM scripting can be used to *enhance* the experience for UA's with JavaScript available, while continuing to remain 100% accessible to those without. 4. Flash replacement techniques are going to be BIG. They can allow you, the designer, to meet some of the more challenging needs of your clients (like graphical headings in an obscure font) with minimal impact to your time and budget. 5. Defensive Design User Experience Design is related to interface design, but it's pretty much it's own thing. What happens if a form is filled out incorrectly, or there's an error, or a user enters something unexpected or malicious into a form? See http://37signals.com/book/ to understand what I mean. 6. Server-side scripting. Websites need to fulfil much larger goals now than ever before, and usually this involves some sort of server-side data manipulation (everything from a contact form to a product database). Most clients will also want a CMS. You need a basic understanding of PHP or a similar server-side language to: a) meet basic client needs b) collaborate efficiently with programmers on larger projects and teams 7. Content is King. Writing or editing for the web is a fine art. You may think this isn't your job, but if you manage websites, then I think it is part of your huge job description. You should at least be able to edit and re-word content to suit the web, and recognise bloat. That should keep us all occupied for about the next 400 years :) And by the way, thanks, I think you've just inspired a new article for me to write on my site tonight :) Justin French http://justinfrench.com/ http://indent.com.au/ On 23/07/2004, at 8:45 PM, 7 sinz wrote: Hi all, Im an 19 yer old desinger, with a particular interest in web design. For the last 8 motnhs i've been huddled up in my workspace practising my art learning the ins and out of CSS and pretty much learning the language to a T. Anything i used to do with nested tables I now write with CSS, layouts dependant on the viewport are atill time consuming to make, and depending on browser support/target audience scale of the project they can be time consuming, still i managae to pull through. Fixed width layouts are no brainers to use, i feel once you've comfortably mastered positioning in CSS you pretty much can design any layout you cut outta of Photoshop/other image editor. Not to say that thats all you need to know when developing with CSS, but it is a main part of structual design, once you can write it fluently theres no stopping or holing back with what kind of structure your static design may be. Now, it took me a while to get here, but we all got to start somewhere. But what now? How can you prepare for the next specification, new attributes and selectors, is there a test suite for CSS3?. Im a graphic designer, who's passion for web development introduced me to one of the strongest client side languages available to any developer, now that im at a point of speaking fluent CSS what do i tackle next, what new CSS3 flavours can i focus on for the next wave of innovation? --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Lists and Opera
Hello. I am having some problems with lists in Opera. Looks fine in IE and Firefox. The URL: http://work.insoft.ro/astraroger/ THE CSS: http://work.insoft.ro/astraroger/stiluri/astraroger.css Regards, Razvan http://razvan.cpea.ro * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
