RE: [WSG] Set min-width using DOM
I won't blush too hard if you mention my name. ;) If you let me know when it's up that'd be great too. Really, though, I didn't create anything new, I just applied it. The current test URL is here - http://d81314.i50.quadrahosting.com.au/ - but please don't check the site for validation. I've just intriduced a claendar module that produces some of the most horrid URL and code I've ever seen. Which leads me to my next question. Anyone know of a calendar solution using PHP that creates clean code? And if you resize the site's window you may notice the centre column's content disapperas/drops from view. I've applied various new wave clearing solutions but it still does it. Any ideas? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Montoya Sent: Friday, 21 October 2005 3:46 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Set min-width using DOM Thanks guys, that answers all my questions. @ Paul: Could you please give a link to your website where this is now working? Also, I'd like to add this as a resource to Liquid Designs. Will you be writing something on this, or could I just write something and give the credit to you? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Table width in Firefox - Strange problem
Hi,
I have reproduced below the code of a simple html document. The table in
the document doesn't show up properly in Firefox 1.0.7. The Caption
totally ignores the specified width of the table extends to the full
width of the page.
With some other CSS, the whole table extends to the full width of the
page.
It works perfectly in IE6.
Can anyone offer any help ?
Thanks
Bhuvnesh Chaudhry
***
!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd;
html
head
titleUntitled Document/title
meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
style type=text/css
!--
.try {
background-color: #CC;
border: thin solid #CC9900;
padding: 4px;
margin-left:30%;
margin-right:30%;
width: 40%;
}
caption {
font: bold 120% Arial,sans-serif;
padding: 3px 0px 3px 0px;
border-top: thin solid #CC9900;
border-left: thin solid #CC9900;
border-right: thin solid #CC9900;
}
th {
background-color: #66;
text-align: left;
}
--
/style
/head
body
pI don't know why the header of teh table stretches itself to the
width of the page./p
p It works perfectly on IE6. What am I doing wron here ? /p
table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 class=try
captionChair/caption
tr
thYear/th
thCountry/th
/tr
tr
td1999-2001 /td
tdCanada /td
/tr
tr
td2007 /td
tdSouth Africa /td
/tr
/table
/body
/html
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Title: Untitled Document
I don't know why the header of teh table stretches itself to the width of the page.
It works perfectly on IE6. What am I doing wron here ?
Chair
Year
Country
1999-2001
Canada
2007
South Africa
RE: [WSG] Table width in Firefox - Strange problem
From: CHAUDHRY, Bhuvnesh
...in Firefox 1.0.7. The Caption totally ignores the specified width
of the table extends to the full width of the page.
.try {
background-color: #CC;
border: thin solid #CC9900;
padding: 4px;
margin-left:30%;
margin-right:30%;
width: 40%;
}
caption {
font: bold 120% Arial,sans-serif;
padding: 3px 0px 3px 0px;
border-top: thin solid #CC9900;
border-left: thin solid #CC9900;
border-right: thin solid #CC9900;
}
table cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 class=try
captionChair/caption
tr
thYear/th
thCountry/th
/tr
SNIP
/table
If you add the same width and margin declarations to the caption it
works.
margin-left:30%;
margin-right:30%;
width: 40%;
If you apply only the width you'll see that the caption begins at the
left
edge of the body, not at the left edge of the table. It seems that the
caption is not being contained by the table in FF, but I can't explain
why.
--
Peter Williams
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Re: [WSG] Set min-width using DOM
Thierry Koblentz skrev:
Ian Rifkin wrote:
The min-width was set using CSS expressions which only works in IE. It
actually is javascript that makes it work, but it goes in the CSS
(inline or external stylesheet). It won't work if javascript is off.
I'm not sure about that.
I believe it still works with script disabled.
In Windows XP it did work with scripting disabled, but that was before SP2!
By wrapping a value in expression() you can make it work only
when scripting is enabled. Like this:
#logotype
{
z-index: 5; /* scripting disabled */
}
#logotype
{
z-index: expression(20); /* override when scripting is enabled */
}
/AndersN
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RE: [WSG] Table width in Firefox - Strange problem
From: Peter Williams It seems that the caption is not being contained by the table in FF, but I can't explain why. HTML 4 recommendation has this to say about the caption element: Visual user agents should avoid clipping any part of the table including the caption, unless a means is provided to access all parts, e.g., by horizontal or vertical scrolling. We recommend that the caption text be wrapped to the same width as the table. So the caption isn't forced to be the same width as the table. I tried it in the latest Opera browser and found that it works as you wish without the extra rules, and is actually broken with the extra rules in place (unlike IE6 which showed it as you wanted with either set of rules in place). -- Peter Williams ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Set min-width using DOM
o.k., so how do you go about setting both max- and min-width at the same time? I tried: width:80%; max-width:600px; min-width:400px; width:expression(((document.documentElement.clientWidth)) 500 ? '400px' : '80%'); width:expression(((document.documentElement.clientWidth)) 750 ? '600px' : '80%'); And needless to say only the second expression got evaluated So, I tried (remove line breaks where required): width:80%; max-width:600px; min-width:400px; width:expression((document.documentElement.clientWidth 500) ? '400px' : ((document.documentElement.clientWidth 750) ? '600px' : '80%')); Bingo! Only works in IE 6, and only if 'active scripting' is enabled - at least on Win 2k sp4 anyway... cheers, Geoff. N���.�Ȩ�X���+��i�� n�Z�֫v�+��h��y�m�쵩�j�l��.f���.�ץ�w�q(��b��(��,�)උazX����)��
Re: [WSG] Set min-width using DOM
Paul Thankyou for that, it will be very usefull for a couple of projects I have. The current test URL is here - http://d81314.i50.quadrahosting.com.au/ - One word of warning in IE6 at about 960px wide browser window the centre content drops below the calendar. It only happens in a small range say 950 to 970 pixels wide. Which leads me to my next question. Anyone know of a calendar solution using PHP that creates clean code? I would look at the one that comes with wordpress: http://wordpress.org it does nice valid code. -- Nick Cowie http://nickcowie.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Link behavior
Hi all, Hopefully there is an easy answer for this without overloading this with too much info. My links in my sidebar on a new main site I am doing are underlined. But the underline starts someplace in the middle of the link, not at the beginning.??? Has anyone seen this before and what could cause it? Even setting all my links are now set to underline and it does the same. Baffled Thanks in advance Bruce Prochnau BKDesign Solutions
Re: [WSG] Link behavior
hi, maybe you´ve got an element that is interfering or some padding or margin in the sidebar and is hide part of your underline because is strange what it is happening to you. Sometimes I lost bullets in navigator for this reason. Quoting Bruce [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi all, Hopefully there is an easy answer for this without overloading this with too much info. My links in my sidebar on a new main site I am doing are underlined. But the underline starts someplace in the middle of the link, not at the beginning.??? Has anyone seen this before and what could cause it? Even setting all my links are now set to underline and it does the same. Baffled Thanks in advance Bruce Prochnau BKDesign Solutions ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Link behavior
2005/10/21, Bruce [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I should add the site is http://www.bkdesign.ca It does the same in ie6 and firefox, and passes validation Thanks Bruce Prochnau - Original Message - From: Bruce To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 5:00 AM Subject: [WSG] Link behavior Hi all, Hopefully there is an easy answer for this without overloading this with too much info. My links in my sidebar on a new main site I am doing are underlined. But the underline starts someplace in the middle of the link, not at the beginning.??? Has anyone seen this before and what could cause it? Even setting all my links are now set to underline and it does the same. Baffled Thanks in advance Bruce Prochnau BKDesign Solutions hmm it seems fine to me m8 (viewing on FF,IE,opera) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Link behavior
Bruce I should add the site is http://www.bkdesign.ca My links in my sidebar on a new main site I am doing are underlined. But the underline starts someplace in the middle of the link, not at the beginning.??? Don't ask me why (though I suspect it's because a is an inline element, so applying padding to the top/bottom is creating some confusion), but the culprit seems to be the padding applied to #sidebar a Change padding: 3px 0px; to just padding: 0; and the underline works properly again. Patrick __ Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Link behavior
Try
#sidebar li a { background: none;} or
#sidebar li a { line-height: 1.5em;}
It is the top of second line overwriting the bottom of the first line
of the link
--
Nick Cowie
http://nickcowie.com
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Re: [WSG] Link behavior
On Oct 21, 2005, at 11:00, Bruce wrote:
Hopefully there is an easy answer for this without overloading this
with too much info.
My links in my sidebar on a new main site I am doing are underlined.
But the underline starts someplace in the middle of the link, not
at the beginning.???
Has anyone seen this before and what could cause it?
Even setting all my links are now set to underline and it does the
same.
From what I can tell, the underline doesn't start in the middle of
the link, it's just hidden by the link below it because the items are
too close together and have a background. You might try either
removing (or increasing) #navbar a {height: 1em;} or the background
colour on #navbar a.
--
Robin Berjon
Senior Research Scientist
Expway, http://expway.com/
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Re: [WSG] Link behavior
2005/10/21, Robin Berjon [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
On Oct 21, 2005, at 11:00, Bruce wrote:
Hopefully there is an easy answer for this without overloading this
with too much info.
My links in my sidebar on a new main site I am doing are underlined.
But the underline starts someplace in the middle of the link, not
at the beginning.???
Has anyone seen this before and what could cause it?
Even setting all my links are now set to underline and it does the
same.
From what I can tell, the underline doesn't start in the middle of
the link, it's just hidden by the link below it because the items are
too close together and have a background. You might try either
removing (or increasing) #navbar a {height: 1em;} or the background
colour on #navbar a.
--
Robin Berjon
Senior Research Scientist
Expway, http://expway.com/
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try another text-decoration and see how it behaves
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Re: [WSG] Link behavior
Bingo! Padding... Thanks to all who responded. Patrick's solution fixed it, but this is a case where bugs brought out errors that although it passed validation, the code was a mess, and all were right who answered. A combination of errors, or perhaps better term would be messy, from poor work habits and being in a rush Bruce Prochnau Patrick Lauke Wrote: Don't ask me why (though I suspect it's because a is an inline element, so applying padding to the top/bottom is creating some confusion), but the culprit seems to be the padding applied to #sidebar a Change padding: 3px 0px; to just padding: 0; and the underline works properly again. Patrick __ Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Strange width/padding/margin issue with IE5 for Mac
Brilliant! Thanks, Geoff. I did notice that the nav was off on IE5 for Mac - IE5 for Windows too, eh? Do they generally behave the same then? - but was so pleased with myself about being hack-free in XP and FF I didn't care about the MacIE!!!. But that's great to know that I still don't have to hack the nav list into the right place! I've learned so much on this one! Took it right back to basics. Added borders around the boxes of content to see what was happening and kept it simple. Brilliant. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Set min-width using DOM
From: Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not sure about that. I believe it still works with script disabled. It doesn't. But if script is used to enhance a web page, rather than the page being dependent on the script, it is not an issue - and very few people run IE with script disabled. Here is another approach, using a function called by an expression. We use this technique quite a bit: http://www.projectseven.com/csslab/testing/minmax/cssp.htm Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Set min-width using DOM
From: Lachlan Hardy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Would something like this be appropriate and still validate? Conditional comments only validate in the sense that the validator doesn't recognise them as anything other than comments and hence ignores the content. So, your page will validate against automated checking, but technically you are using invalid code That's a real stretch :-) How about the typical parsing bugs that CSS geeks tend to use - are those better because they eek through da Validator even though they leverage programming bugs in browsers? Conditional Comments are a clean and safe way to address IE Windows issues. Those who use them, who have used them, will have minimal or no issues once IE7 is released. You can bank on that. Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Set min-width using DOM
Al Sparber wrote: Conditional comments only validate in the sense that the validator doesn't recognise them as anything other than comments and hence ignores the content. So, your page will validate against automated checking, but technically you are using invalid code That's a real stretch :-) How about the typical parsing bugs that CSS geeks tend to use - are those better because they eek through da Validator even though they leverage programming bugs in browsers? Howdy, I don't disagree with you often, but I do in this case. I don't see his view as a stretch at all; I think he is bang on. Conditional comments, which I do prefer to the more often used hacks, are not part of any standard, which makes them invalid markup by nature. There is no way to argue that point validation or otherwise. Some hacks that leverage programming bugs in browsers are opportunistic (and perhaps overly optimistic), but they remain valid CSS. Using this method could *possibly* cause problems with browsers of the future, but then again, so could conditional comments. Also, some developers ritually abuse conditional comments by adding invalid CSS or expressions to their IE style sheets because they know the validator won't catch them. True CSS geeks make sure all of their CSS validates; not just the stuff the validator can see. Conditional Comments are a clean and safe way to address IE Windows issues. Those who use them, who have used them, will have minimal or no issues once IE7 is released. You can bank on that. I agree: CC's are /currently/ the cleanest and safest way to deal with IE Win issues, but they are not infallible or 100% future proof. Allot depends on factors we probably haven't even considered yet. For example, (and this really might be a stretch :))there are allot of folks who have fixed an across the board IE issue by isolating specific CSS to all versions of IE using just !--[if IE]. In this case, if IE 7 (assuming whatever bug I was using the CC's to hack has been fixed) gets the primary CSS right, but is still being fed the alternate style sheet, I'd have to go back and break that CSS out somehow or change the expression in my CC's. Depending on how things are set up, that could be allot of work in its own right. In the same scenario as above, if I used the * html hack to achieve my goal and IE 7 doesn't recognize * html (I believe that is the rumor), then I have to change nothing--all should continue to work and be happy. The truth (at least my version of it :)) is, I can't bank on anything yet and I won't know how things are going to actually play out until I have a browser in which to test them. For the most part though, I do believe those of us using CC's will encounter fewer issues. Best regards, Michael Wilson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Set min-width using DOM
Michael Wilson wrote: Al Sparber wrote: Conditional comments only validate in the sense that the validator doesn't recognise them as anything other than comments and hence ignores the content. So, your page will validate against automated checking, but technically you are using invalid code That's a real stretch :-) How about the typical parsing bugs that CSS geeks tend to use - are those better because they eek through da Validator even though they leverage programming bugs in browsers? Howdy, I don't disagree with you often, but I do in this case. I don't see his view as a stretch at all; I think he is bang on. Conditional comments, which I do prefer to the more often used hacks, are not part of any standard, which makes them invalid markup by nature. There is no way to argue that point validation or otherwise. Hi Michael, From a purely technical perspective, I stand corrected (I think). However, comments are just that - comments. That Microsoft chose to provide a means for targeting specific versions of its browser, is merely a feature which can be used for myriad puproses, one of which is to deliver curative or even proprietary CSS. My delivering of a proprietary expression with this feature can be construed as counter to the mission of those who advocate a rigid adherence to standards - but I'm not rigid. My goal is to deliver the best web pages I can and if it's a question of allowing IE to fail in whole, or in part, for the greater good of absolute standards conformance, then my position is that a working web page is more important than a valid one. But we are splitting hairs to the extent that someone with less than a perfect understanding of both filter hacks and conditional comments could come away thinking that conditional comments are unclean. Be that as it may, conditional comments and even proprietary expressions are good things to have in one's arsenal. Your example of a global IE version vector simply describes a poor approach to deployment, just as many filter hack implementations could cause problems, so too could a mis-application of conditional comments. We teach people to use specific vectors to ensure forward compatibility - which is, in conclusion, impossible with an exclusive reliance on filter hacks. Regards, Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Set min-width using DOM
Al Sparber wrote: From: Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not sure about that. I believe it still works with script disabled. It doesn't. http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/sidepages/jello-piefecta-clean.html Says: The upper limit is enforced by a max-width on #sizer, and IEwin is included via an expression hidden in a Conditional Comment in the head. While this is a script, the user cannot disable this type of CSS expression when disabling JavaScript. That's why I said I was not sure... ;) Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Re: Complex form - markup help?
On 10/20/05, Christian Montoya [email hidden] wrote: It looks like a data table to me. If you didn't use a table, you would probably use lists, which might be more confusing. I've had advise from [EMAIL PROTECTED] against using data table markup for forms because screen readers often have different modes for the navigation of tables and the navigation of forms. And if you provide information in a mix of data table markup and form markup, users may miss one or the other. See: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2005JulSep/0196.html So if you do use a table to layout your form, you might want to consider it a layout table and not use structural data table markup. In this case, the content is generally considered part of a form, not a table. Form elements already provide ways for explicitly associating labels with inputs and legends with fieldsets. So, you do not need structural table elements and attributes in order to mark-up the relationship. Just be sure the layout table makes sense when linearized. So my take is... - The way you choose to go (layout table or CSS) depends upon your CSS knowledge. CSS layouts are becoming more popular, they are more standards compliment. Cameron Adams has a good CSS form examples, Accessible, stylish form layout templates [1]. Derek Featherstone also has some other good CSS form techniques at Simply Accessible[2]. However, some designers/developers revert back to tables when it comes to laying out a form because of the complexities involved. - The way you choose to go might also depend upon your knowledge of your audience (that is what software they'll be using to access a page) and the amount of cross-browser compatibility you want to accomplish. Some More References: CSS Forms http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/css#forms Forms Accessibility http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/accessibility#forms Forms Usability http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/usability#forms Laura [1] http://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2004/03/24/ [2] http://simplyaccessible.org/ ___ Laura L. Carlson Information Technology Systems and Services University of Minnesota Duluth Duluth, MN 55812-3009 http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/webdesign/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Set min-width using DOM
Thierry Koblentz wrote: Al Sparber wrote: From: Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not sure about that. I believe it still works with script disabled. It doesn't. http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/sidepages/jello-piefecta-clean.html Says: The upper limit is enforced by a max-width on #sizer, and IEwin is included via an expression hidden in a Conditional Comment in the head. While this is a script, the user cannot disable this type of CSS expression when disabling JavaScript. That's why I said I was not sure... ;) Test it yourself and let me know the results. Our testing in the past has indicated that script is script and requires the client-side engine to be running. If I'm wrong, I'd actually be happy to know our testing in the past on this issue was incorrect. -- Al ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Set min-width using DOM
Thierry Koblentz wrote: http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/sidepages/jello-piefecta-clean.html Says: The upper limit is enforced by a max-width on #sizer, and IEwin is included via an expression hidden in a Conditional Comment in the head. While this is a script, the user cannot disable this type of CSS expression when disabling JavaScript. That's why I said I was not sure... ;) I just tested the following page in IE6. With script enabled, the min-width expression does its job. If I disable JavaScript, the expression no longer works: http://www.projectseven.com/products/menusystems/pmm/pagepacks/utopia/vertical_liquid.htm -- Al ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Set min-width using DOM
Thierry Koblentz wrote: http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/sidepages/jello-piefecta-clean.html Says: The upper limit is enforced by a max-width on #sizer, and IEwin is included via an expression hidden in a Conditional Comment in the head. While this is a script, the user cannot disable this type of CSS expression when disabling JavaScript. http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/sidepages/jello-piefecta-clean.html With script disabled in IE6, the expression on the above page does not work. -- Al ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Set min-width using DOM
Al Sparber wrote: Thierry Koblentz wrote: http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/sidepages/jello-piefecta-clean.html Says: The upper limit is enforced by a max-width on #sizer, and IEwin is included via an expression hidden in a Conditional Comment in the head. While this is a script, the user cannot disable this type of CSS expression when disabling JavaScript. http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/sidepages/jello-piefecta-clean.html With script disabled in IE6, the expression on the above page does not work. It seems to work fine for me, Yours doesn't: http://www.projectseven.com/products/menusystems/pmm/pagepacks/utopia/vertical_liquid.htm WinXP IE 6.0.28 SP1 WinXP IE 6.0.29 SP2 Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Set min-width using DOM
http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/sidepages/jello-piefecta-clean.html With script disabled in IE6, the expression on the above page does not work. It seems to work fine for me, It most certainly does not work. Look closely, the page is a mess to begin with so it's hard to see. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Set min-width using DOM
Al Sparber wrote: http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/sidepages/jello-piefecta-clean.html With script disabled in IE6, the expression on the above page does not work. It seems to work fine for me, It most certainly does not work. Look closely, the page is a mess to begin with so it's hard to see. I've just checked the CSS file and found out that the min-width is done through padding on body, *not* through an expression. But I was checking for a min-width behavior, no wonder it worked fine without JS... Duh! It's the statement on PIE While this is a script, the user cannot disable this type of CSS expression when disabling JavaScript. that put my brain in a Jello state ;) Thanks for trying so hard to convince me, now I'm *sure* it doesn't work... Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: Complex form - markup help?
On 10/21/05, Laura Carlson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/20/05, Christian Montoya [email hidden] wrote: It looks like a data table to me. If you didn't use a table, you would probably use lists, which might be more confusing. I've had advise from [EMAIL PROTECTED] against using data table markup for forms because screen readers often have different modes for the navigation of tables and the navigation of forms. And if you provide information in a mix of data table markup and form markup, users may miss one or the other. See: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2005JulSep/0196.html I learn something new every day :-) In that case, if I were to attempt to make it ultra-accessible, I would use divs in this situation, with the center div having lists. Just wondering, I think I mentioned about this possibly being implemented with a list that has nested lists... how does that affect accessibility, especially for screen readers? Are nested lists problematic? What about using nested lists elsewhere, like in a list of links? -- C Montoya rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: Complex form - markup help?
On 10/21/05, Laura Carlson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/20/05, Christian Montoya [email hidden] wrote: It looks like a data table to me. If you didn't use a table, you would probably use lists, which might be more confusing. I've had advise from [EMAIL PROTECTED] against using data table markup for forms because screen readers often have different modes for the navigation of tables and the navigation of forms. And if you provide information in a mix of data table markup and form markup, users may miss one or the other. See: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2005JulSep/0196.html I learn something new every day :-) In that case, if I were to attempt to make it ultra-accessible, I would use divs in this situation, with the center div having lists. Just wondering, I think I mentioned about this possibly being implemented with a list that has nested lists... how does that affect accessibility, especially for screen readers? Are nested lists problematic? What about using nested lists elsewhere, like in a list of links? -- C Montoya rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Set min-width using DOM
Thierry Koblentz wrote: Al Sparber wrote: http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/sidepages/jello-piefecta-clean.html With script disabled in IE6, the expression on the above page does not work. It seems to work fine for me, It most certainly does not work. Look closely, the page is a mess to begin with so it's hard to see. I've just checked the CSS file and found out that the min-width is done through padding on body, *not* through an expression. But I was checking for a min-width behavior, no wonder it worked fine without JS... Duh! It's the statement on PIE While this is a script, the user cannot disable this type of CSS expression when disabling JavaScript. that put my brain in a Jello state ;) Thanks for trying so hard to convince me, now I'm *sure* it doesn't work... No problem, Thierry ;-) But there is an expression at play there - not the best implementation - but if you disable script in IE, you will see the content wrapper get considerably wider. -- Al ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Conditional Comments question
I have a question about conditional comments. I have heard so much about them especially in the last discussion about "Set min-width using DOM" but have never used them. We have always used a _javascript_ style sniffer to determine which browser the viewer is using. However when _javascript_ is turned off the site looks pretty nasty. Does conditional comments still work if js is turned off? And is this a better way to go than a _javascript_ style sniffer? What do you do for browsers like mac ie if you don't want it to use the style sheet. With the sniffer I can tell it to use our nostyle.css file. Thanks, Janelle
Re: [WSG] Conditional Comments question
Janelle Clemens wrote: I have a question about conditional comments. I have heard so much about them especially in the last discussion about Set min-width using DOM but have never used them. We have always used a javascript style sniffer to determine which browser the viewer is using. However when javascript is turned off the site looks pretty nasty. Does conditional comments still work if js is turned off? And is this a better way to go than a javascript style sniffer? What do you do for browsers like mac ie if you don't want it to use the style sheet. With the sniffer I can tell it to use our nostyle.css file. CCs are evil for some and the best thing since sliced bread for others. The good think with JS sniffing is that I believe eveybody agree that it is a bad thing ;) http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/branching.asp /plug Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Set min-width using DOM
I first discovered these expressions quite some time ago. Sorry if I'm stealing anyone's thunder. http://www.svendtofte.com/code/max_width_in_ie/ Regards, Stuart ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Conditional Comments question
Janelle Clemens wrote: I have a question about conditional comments. I have heard so much about them especially in the last discussion about Set min-width using DOM but have never used them. We have always used a javascript style sniffer to determine which browser the viewer is using. However when javascript is turned off the site looks pretty nasty. Does conditional comments still work if js is turned off?And is this a better way to go than a javascript style sniffer? What do you do for browsers like mac ie if you don't want it to use the style sheet. With the sniffer I can tell it to use our nostyle.css file. Until recently, I worked for the NZ Govt. We have rules about displaying macrons in Maori using unicode. We also have rules about sites being usable with JavaScript turned off. Some browser/OS combinations don't do Unicode at all (notably on Mac pre-OSX), so we knew we'd have to detect those exceptions and return them a page without macronised characters. As we couldn't use JavaScript to do the sniffing (plus that would have made all the pages cumbersome), we set the filter (on the www.govt.nz site at least) at the server level using mod_perl on an Apache server and a growing black list as we discovered new browser/OSes that didn't do Unicode . Other sites, running on IIS (ptui) use modified dlls to achieve the same thing (although I think you can now run PERL on IIS (happy to be corrected on that. I can't tell you the technical details as I am not that sort of geek ;-) but Daniel Bar-Even at Signify *is* that sort of geek and has published a page at http://www.signify.co.nz/macronfilter/ about how he did it. Surely, the same sort of server level approach could be used to sniff out the browsers that won't do what you want and serve a different CSS sheet to them? James Ellis made an excellent comment the other day that echoes what I've been telling my business users for years - it won't look the same in different browsers on different platforms, so get over that and concentrate on getting pages that work in all browsers and all platforms to deliver the business need. cheers Mark Harris ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Conditional Comments question
Janelle Clemens wrote: I have a question about conditional comments. I have heard so much about them especially in the last discussion about Set min-width using DOM but have never used them. We have always used a javascript style sniffer to determine which browser the viewer is using. However when javascript is turned off the site looks pretty nasty. Does conditional comments still work if js is turned off? And is this a better way to go than a javascript style sniffer? What do you do for browsers like mac ie if you don't want it to use the style sheet. With the sniffer I can tell it to use our nostyle.css file. Hi Janelle, Conditional Comments are a feature built into IE Windows (v5.0 and higher). They do not require JavaScript to run. We no longer sniff for browsers. We make sure our pages are going to work in modern browsers and then we correct for IE Windows via CSS delivered through Conditional Comments. We import our style sheets to prevent old browsers from seeing them. The only other browser we sometimes throw a hack in for is IE5 Mac - but very rearely do we need to. Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com DW Extensions - Menu Systems - Tutorials - CSS FastPacks - Webdev Newsgroup: news://forums.projectseven.com/pviiwebdev/ CSS Newsgroup: news://forums.projectseven.com/css/ RSS/XML Feeds: http://www.projectseven.com/xml/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] List item overlap
Title: Message I have this list item on http://www.lrp.com.au/admin/(main navigation) it overlaps,I would like it to just continue underneath without overlapping, is that possible? Thanks, Taco Fleur - CEOPacific Fox http://www.pacificfox.com.au an industry leader with commercial IT experience since 1994 ** Web Design and Development ** SMS Solutions, including developer API ** Domain Registration, .COM for as low as AUSD$15 a year, .COM.AU for AUSD$50 two years! ** Seamless Merchant integration ** We endorse PayPal, accept payments online now!
Re: [WSG] Set min-width using DOM
Ok, so my final questions is... is there a fallback for expression() ? Something in IE for expression that functions like noscript for script? What I am thinking of is that if someone using IE doesn't have expression(), you may want to give them a fixed width layout as backup. Something like: expression( max-width stuff) else ( width: 740px; ) or: width:740px; expression( fluid and max-width stuff ) Any ideas? -- C Montoya rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
