[WSG] Re: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser!
On Fri, Jul 20, 2007 at 11:23:44AM +1000, Webb, KerryA wrote: If that's an efficient and effective way to publish a document, let them do it - providing the PDF is properly marked up. Is there an organisation that systematically produces well marked up accessible PDFs? I train people in how to do accessible PDFs, and I've yet to come across an organisation willing to do it properly. (And to be fair, it tends to take a shift in how the organisation works.) On a side note, now that adobe is putting PDF through the standards process, can we now consider it a 'web' standard? Kind regards, -Alastair *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] To target or not
Can we just step back a moment, and consider what we are doing. As I write this reply, I am typing the content of this mail IN A NEW WINDOW. When I send the mail, the window disappears and I'm left with a large window, with folders in a FRAME down the left. As I read the new mails, I move from one window to another, automatically. It would drive me daft if there was only one window which changed content between my folders, my address book, my mails etc etc. The point being, of course, that this is typical of most of my computing experience. Most (web) users expectations are founded on their experiences, and those experiences are based upon their computing. Frames? New windows? Most of us couldn't work without them. Do those who proclaim annoyance at having 'new windows forced on them' apply the same thinking to mail, Dreamweaver (and all the other programs). Are they therefore doomed to a dreadful experience whilst computing? I doubt it. -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser!
No. PDF is a document file format, not a Web technolgy. Whilst you may say that it's use on the Web has become standard that does not make it a Web Standard (except by some tortuous abuse of semantics). Adobe might be On Fri, July 20, 2007 9:39 am, Alastair Campbell wrote: On Fri, Jul 20, 2007 at 11:23:44AM +1000, Webb, KerryA wrote: If that's an efficient and effective way to publish a document, let them do it - providing the PDF is properly marked up. On a side note, now that adobe is putting PDF through the standards process, can we now consider it a 'web' standard? Kind regards, -Alastair -- Stuart Foulstone. http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk BigEasy Web Design 69 Flockton Court Rockingham Street Sheffield S1 4EB Tel. 07751 413451 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser!
Stuart Foulstone wrote: PDF is a document file format, not a Web technolgy. Whilst you may say that it's use on the Web has become standard that does not make it a Web Standard (except by some tortuous abuse of semantics). HTML is a document file format. While there may be an argument to be made that PDF isn't a 'web technology' I don't think this is it. Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] To target or not
On Friday 20 July 2007 07:44, Dave Lane wrote: If I click on a link on their site I expect it to open in my current window - if it insists on opening a new window, it pisses me off, because that's not how I work. I see that approach as indicating a designer still in a very IE5.5-6 mindset: primitive. Sites that try to manipulate me don't pique my interest, they put me right off (and, needless to say, I don't go back). Dave There are valid cases for opening content from the same site in a new window. The most obvious is when logging into secure sections of web sites, like online banking. By forcing a new window that then generates the secure session and closing the window at the end of the session you prevent people from using the back button to re-access the secure content. The new window should also have all elements other than a scrollbar hidden so the window can't easily be used to continue surfing the Internet. IMHO this should become a web convention in the way the Internet has been commercialised. All online transactions should be conducted in their own window that is killed once the transaction is complete. -- Regards, Steve Bathurst Computer Solutions URL: www.bathurstcomputers.com.au e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mobile: 0407 224 251 _ ... (0) ... / / \ .. / / . ) .. V__/_ Linux Powered! Registered Linux User #355382 * If you read the same things as others and say the same things they say, then you're perceived as intelligent. I'm a bit more independent and radical and consider intelligence the ability to think about matters on your own and ask a lot of skeptical questions to get at the real truth, not just what you're told it is. Apple's Inventor - Steve Wozniak 2006 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] To target or not
If your banking site relies on a new window for its security, then it is time to get a new bank! In this day and age when every major browser has tabbed browsing, there is little that is more infuriating than have a new browser window spawned for no reason - worst of all is when I 'middle-click' to open a link in a new tab, and get both that AND a new window with the same content. Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Olive There are valid cases for opening content from the same site in a new window. The most obvious is when logging into secure sections of web sites, like online banking. By forcing a new window that then generates the secure session and closing the window at the end of the session you prevent people from using the back button to re-access the secure content. The new window should also have all elements other than a scrollbar hidden so the window can't easily be used to continue surfing the Internet. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Re: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser!
Saying that PDF's are needed by Government Websites is a very circular argument for allowing them - why are they needed? In my experience it is only ever because of laziness or poorly designed workflows, and as you point out, we all hate them, especially when they cannot be opened/read. Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jermayn Parker ... for most Government websites they need these pdfs that we all hate and as I said in an earlier email html versions is not always an option. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser!
Michael I understand your comments, however I think it would be very difficult for governments other high volume publishers to remove the need for PDFs. Where an audience must be reached by a variety of channels by both web and printed media, it would be sensless to have to produce multiple sets of documents. i.e. brochures prepared for both printers and then replicated in HTML. Post print production saving as PDF ensures that exactly the same document as sent to print can easily be published for the web, maintaing the original integrity of the document and also saving on a second production process. -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 20/07/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Saying that PDF's are needed by Government Websites is a very circular argument for allowing them - why are they needed? In my experience it is only ever because of laziness or poorly designed workflows, and as you point out, we all hate them, especially when they cannot be opened/read. Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jermayn Parker ... for most Government websites they need these pdfs that we all hate and as I said in an earlier email html versions is not always an option. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser!
Told you - abuse of semantics to undermine Web Standards again:-) -- Stuart Foulstone. http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk BigEasy Web Design 69 Flockton Court Rockingham Street Sheffield S1 4EB Tel. 07751 413451 On Fri, July 20, 2007 11:06 am, Rob Crowther wrote: Stuart Foulstone wrote: PDF is a document file format, not a Web technolgy. Whilst you may say that it's use on the Web has become standard that does not make it a Web Standard (except by some tortuous abuse of semantics). HTML is a document file format. While there may be an argument to be made that PDF isn't a 'web technology' I don't think this is it. Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] (Phillipe) margin problem in Firefox
On Jul 19, 2007, at 8:39 PM, Philippe Wittenbergh wrote: I would use the following structure: ol li h6span%number/span John Doe on Jul 7, 11:34 AM/h6 pcomment here/p !-- or more p -- /li Ah! this does look a lot better! Thank you so much! tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] To target or not
On 2007/07/20 20:14 (GMT+1000) Steve Olive apparently typed: There are valid cases for opening content from the same site in a new window. The most obvious is when logging into secure sections of web sites, like online banking. By forcing a new window that then generates the secure session and closing the window at the end of the session you prevent people from using the back button to re-access the secure content. The new window should also have all elements other than a scrollbar hidden so the window can't easily be used to continue surfing the Internet. IMHO this should become a web convention in the way the Internet has been commercialised. All online transactions should be conducted in their own window that is killed once the transaction is complete. If my bank did as you describe I'd switch banks. It's my computer. I get to decide when opening another window is appropriate. It's up to the page design to prevent me from wrongly accessing its content, which it can easily enough do without forcing any new windows. -- All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteoousness. 2 Timothy 3:16 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Wide Display
Hi All, Could use your savvy in creating a style that would prevent the services content from sliding out of position when viewed on a very large display. http://bushidodeep.com/summer_2007/wide_capture.png Granted this width is not close to the norm, it would good to support it, and should not prove a difficult style to author. On a display wide, yet reasonable: http://bushidodeep.com/summer_2007/little_wide.png See the styles here: http://bushidodeep.com/summer_2007/template_01.php CK *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser!
HI, A I've not read the entire thread, the suggestion may have been offered. For Safari this extension allows the user to disable Safari rendering of pdf: SafariSpeed 2.0 http://pimpmysafari.com/plugins/ This should be a feature of of all UA's but this is a start. CK On Jul 20, 2007, at 7:39 AM, Stuart Foulstone wrote: Told you - abuse of semantics to undermine Web Standards again:-) -- Stuart Foulstone. http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk BigEasy Web Design 69 Flockton Court Rockingham Street Sheffield S1 4EB Tel. 07751 413451 On Fri, July 20, 2007 11:06 am, Rob Crowther wrote: Stuart Foulstone wrote: PDF is a document file format, not a Web technolgy. Whilst you may say that it's use on the Web has become standard that does not make it a Web Standard (except by some tortuous abuse of semantics). HTML is a document file format. While there may be an argument to be made that PDF isn't a 'web technology' I don't think this is it. Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser!
On Jul 20, 2007, at 3:39 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Saying that PDF's are needed by Government Websites is a very circular argument for allowing them - why are they needed? In my experience it is only ever because of laziness or poorly designed workflows, and as you point out, we all hate them, especially when they cannot be opened/ read. Mike I love web standard and practice it with the best of my ability, and I love PDF too - use it, create it, deliver it (for client), I love it especially when I need to download form, I love it even more when I can fill up the form with my keyboard directly from browser, then print it out, sign my name and post it; I also love it when an ebook I purchased (rarely because most ebook in PDF version are badly created) have hyperlink option where I can jump to certain page/ section with a click on link, and jump back with another click. I do hate it when a PDF file I downloaded, the text is unreadable with 300% zoom A Chinese physician will tell you anything that is medicine, contain 30% of poison - over used, over dosed, if not kill you, will at least make you suffer (irritation is one of the suffering emotion I supposed) - today a Western journalist will write that anything that is Chinese medicine MIC, contains 100% poison (alas! unfortunately with some true in it), your statement came out to me like a Western journalist who wrote an article saying that all Chinese medicine contains 100% poison. Alas! as much as I know it's not true and you didn't know anything about Chinese medicine except quoting/reading something from some source or had a one tiny bad experience the last time you travelled in China, but I feel helpless to defend the Chinese medicine due to those rotten poising evil apples that do exist and have creating quite a stir. I think in this case, blame the messenger, not the source that made of what it is. PDF can be accessible, not in the sense of web standards, create it and delivery it with care and best practice, it's not evil at all, especially compare with flash, imho. Look at the economic aspect, all government sectors on earth are talking about budget cutting constantly, I personal feel Government websites stand a good argument for providing PDF forms for free easy access. Don't know which country you live in, do you remember when was the last time you needed to visit post office or a city hall department to obtain a form, or worse, you need to pay for it from a third party agent that does nothing creative but make money from selling forms provided free of charge by governments. Oh, although no statistic to proof it, but I do believe we manage to save quite a few forests each year by having the PDFs be available on one's website, on the internet. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] To target or not
Designer wrote: Can we just step back a moment, and consider what we are doing. As I write this reply, I am typing the content of this mail IN A NEW WINDOW.[] Do those who proclaim annoyance at having 'new windows forced on them' apply the same thinking to mail, Dreamweaver (and all the other programs). Okay, stepping back for a moment, I would first of all admit that I quoted somewhat selectively from the WCAG in order to make it seem like it was absolutely wrong to open up a new window when a person clicks on a link. In a more even-handed moment, I might have pointed out that the issue is not necessarily the opening up of a new window, but rather the *method* one uses for opening up a new window and whether one can make a user aware of what behaviour to expect when they click on a particular link. So although I would advise against it, it is nevertheless technically possible and within accepted web standards to code a link in such a way that it will open up a new window, provided that you notify your users that such behaviour will occur. Since we're looking at this from a web standards perspective, there are other web standards that come into play. For instance, although target=_blank is regularly used to open a new window, I would argue that this code is actually part of the HTML code intended for use with FRAMES, and therefore, the use of this code to create pop-up windows in a non-frame environment is an abuse of the HTML code. In XHTML 1.1 Strict, of course, target=_blank has been removed entirely in order to make such use impossible if one wants to write valid XHTML code -- and I would suggest that part of the reason it has been removed is precisely because of the abuse of its intended use within a frames environment. There remains, however, the possibility of using JavaScript to create new windows. And I would admit that there are certain contexts when such usages are valuable for a user -- especially in those instances where a website is attempting to serve more like a web application than a static, information-only site. But whenever you use JavaScript to code some behaviour, you should from the very beginning be thinking about how you can emulate that behaviour in a non-JavaScript environment -- if only because a certain percentage of users will have JavaScript disabled. With the wildly popular use of AJAX and other scripting technologies to make web sites behave more like standalone programs, there is a temptation to compare the two and draw similarities between them. I would note however that there remain deep, structural and perceived differences between web-based applications and stand-alone programs that run on one or two operating systems. For instance, assistive technology like screen readers can tap directly into an operating system's API or interface so that when a modal/dialog box pops up it can always, without fail notify a user in the exact same way every time. By contrast, on the web, there are many different methods of simulating the opening up of such modal windows, and despite a decade of development, screen readers still cannot reliably communicate to their users when such pop-ups occur and how to navigate through them. If there were a web standard that required that all pop-up windows be created using the exact same specific coding method, then I am sure that screen reader software could be written to predict and communicate such activity. The challenge for those who create AJAX/dynamic-scripting web applications, then, is to find ways of ensuring that those sites are usable by ALL users with CURRENT, or even somewhat-out-of-date, user agents (since users with disabilities in particular are often financially disadvantaged as well, and so are unable to purchase the latest versions of their preferred assistive technologies). With respect to the use of multiple windows and learned web behaviour generally, I think there is some confusion. Like you, I also use multiple windows when browsing the web, and they are an integral part of my web experience. My annoyance with links that are coded to always open up in a new window is that such coding actually gets in the way of my experience. My web browser allows me to choose whether I want to open a link in a new window or not. When someone codes a site so that those links are forced to open up in a new window, then it *breaks* my browsing experience. Some less experienced users may also get frustrated because such links *break* their back button: there is no way back when you open a new window -- you have to close the window in order to get back. In general, this makes my browsing experience less predictable, and it discourages a user who knows exactly what they want and what the fastest way is for them to get it. The problem is not then with the use of multiple windows, but with the lack of predictability and control over those windows. In an operating system environment, I only have to learn about a
Re: [WSG] Wide Display
Hi CK,
On Jul 20, 2007, at 6:21 AM, CK wrote:
Hi All,
Could use your savvy in creating a style that would prevent the
services content from sliding out of position when viewed on a very
large display.
http://bushidodeep.com/summer_2007/wide_capture.png
div#bd_container {max-width: 1000px /* for example */}
and also read the max width support concerning IE browsers
http://tinyurl.com/yqxsel
Hope this helps!
tee
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RE: [WSG] Re: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser!
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I love web standard and practice it with the best of my ability, Nice to know, very glad to hear it. and I love PDF too - use it, create it, deliver it So somewhat biased then... PDF can be accessible, not in the sense of web standards, Huh? Look at the economic aspect, all government sectors on earth are talking about budget cutting constantly, I personal feel Government websites stand a good argument for providing PDF forms PDF's are quite good for forms - but that is a minority of what they _are_ used for; most of them are just official reports, stuffed full of logos and pretty graphics. Better to just make the forms online in the first place - why download, print then have to post it in? Much better to submit direct. Oh, although no statistic to proof it, but I do believe we manage to save quite a few forests each year by having the PDFs be available on one's website, on the internet. Again; Huh? Regards, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser!
Tee G. Peng wrote: Oh, although no statistic to proof it, but I do believe we manage to save quite a few forests each year by having the PDFs be available on one's website, on the internet. ?! You're entitled to your enthusiasm for PDF (which I don't share) but this one escapes me -- how do you figure? Personally, I'm more likely to print out (at least parts of) PDFs because they're so hellish to use on-screen... -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Saying that PDF's are needed by Government Websites is a very circular argument for allowing them - why are they needed? In my experience it is only ever because of laziness or poorly designed workflows, and as you point out, we all hate them, especially when they cannot be opened/read. Mike I have worked for an organization that uses PDF's in their loan application process. They have to send some of the filled out forms into the Small Bu and therefore they have to follow a specific format for the forms. It would be confusing and time consuming to create multiple versions of the form--since if anything ever went to court they would need a copy of the exact form a user filled out--not one where the information had been transfered over to a new form. If anyone is interested in reading, here is an Adobe article on PDF accessibility. http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/accessibility/reader/sec1.html Matthew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser!
I think the thread here would be summed up as: Most everyone would agree pdf is a usefull file format with special qualities and good. There is nothing wrong with the pdf format. PDF isn't a web format and causes some people problems in both usability and irritation. Having a link that says Read this or read more etc, and surprise surprise, a new browser window opens up and some people get locked up while waiting for this unexpected event to take place...is a no no Would about sum it up. Myself, I would say: Clearly indicate the format and maybe suggest downloading, especially if very large, State size of file. If smaller file offer it in html format, especially when part of the site... Otherwise, it isn't a bad thing, just when not clear what exactly it is, and size. My 2 cents anyways.. Bruce P bkdesign - Original Message - From: Matthew Ohlman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 11:16 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Re: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser! [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Saying that PDF's are needed by Government Websites is a very circular argument for allowing them - why are they needed? In my experience it is only ever because of laziness or poorly designed workflows, and as you point out, we all hate them, especially when they cannot be opened/read. Mike I have worked for an organization that uses PDF's in their loan application process. They have to send some of the filled out forms into the Small Bu and therefore they have to follow a specific format for the forms. It would be confusing and time consuming to create multiple versions of the form--since if anything ever went to court they would need a copy of the exact form a user filled out--not one where the information had been transfered over to a new form. If anyone is interested in reading, here is an Adobe article on PDF accessibility. http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/accessibility/reader/sec1.html Matthew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser!
On Jul 20, 2007, at 7:54 AM, Hassan Schroeder wrote: Oh, although no statistic to proof it, but I do believe we manage to save quite a few forests each year by having the PDFs be available on one's website, on the internet. ?! You're entitled to your enthusiasm for PDF (which I don't share) but this one escapes me -- how do you figure? This is heading a OT direction I am afraid. I should add the 'on one's website, over the internet, via email' Will, take myself for example, for print/web design services, I don't send paper invoice unless client specifically requested; I have another business on the side that requires making catalogs - each copy of color catalog cost me US$1.75 (17 x 11 by 16 pages), and I print some 500 copies a year, most of them are wasted, go directly into trash bin even though I don't send them unless a request catalog is made via web form /telephone/ fax. I have the catalog in PDF version available for download from my website and always encourage people who requested the catalog to download the PDF version instead. And on the printed catalog I had it printed help saves a tree and help us save our cost, please download our catalog at www.site.com/ catalog. Although I am environmental conscious and make it a practice in my daily lives but It will be hypocritical to tell people 'help saves a tree, please download catalog at . I don't print out anything (PDF) unless necessary; I don't request printed material unless absolutely necessary, many things I needed for references purposes for me to conduct my business can be obtained on the internet in PDF, not just forms. I work very hard to try to make a paperless home office - impossible but I make great effort to reduce the use of paper. I don't have my bank sends paper statement to me via mail each month and other services I subscribed to that are not technologically savvy or lack of resources to make them HTML (either this option is available thing can goes wrong and you will have another reason to blame the web) but PDF only. The incoming fax I received are also in PDF. Everthing is in PDF I do not work in papermill industry but my previous life as a print designer and the business I do now and the awareness I have as to how we mindlessly polluting our enviornment, require me to know a lot about how paper being made, what materials are made of, what chemicals are used and how much virgin fabric are used for the paper, where the source comes from and are the fabric that made of 100% pure white shining glossy paper from the tree that takes decade to grow or corps that are farmed and regenerated annually etc... You feel good about your country has a toughest law in protecting forests and preventing certain industries from destroying the beautiful forest in your own land, but perhaps what you don't know is, your people (my people) go to other countries that have less tougher law or no law in protecting the forests, exploiting others' beautiful forests and lands so that you can have beautiful gift paperwrap for birthdays, for Chistmas, and for your shning glossy paper prensation that you present to your clients. Chances are, any information that is offered as a PDF option for download over the internet, help saves energies/resources, less pollutions and help saves a tree one way or the other. If 50% of the people that reqeusted catalog, forms last year from me, from my clients, from any government websites opted for PDF version, everyone wins to some extend. Like I said, blame the messenger - blame the people who created the PDF for not making it accssible and easy for the users. Don't blame the PDF itself - it's innocent and in fact in my opinion, a beneficial technology Adobe has invented. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Wide Display
Hi,
Your solution was great, now I've developed a problem with a vertical
scroll bar. some of the math has went awry. Would you assist?
CK
On Jul 20, 2007, at 9:06 AM, Tee G. Peng wrote:
Hi CK,
On Jul 20, 2007, at 6:21 AM, CK wrote:
Hi All,
Could use your savvy in creating a style that would prevent the
services content from sliding out of position when viewed on a
very large display.
http://bushidodeep.com/summer_2007/wide_capture.png
div#bd_container {max-width: 1000px /* for example */}
and also read the max width support concerning IE browsers
http://tinyurl.com/yqxsel
Hope this helps!
tee
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Re: [WSG] Wide Display
On Jul 20, 2007, at 8:53 AM, CK wrote: Hi, Your solution was great, now I've developed a problem with a vertical scroll bar. some of the math has went awry. Would you assist? please post the url. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Wide Display
That would help: http://bushidodeep.com/summer_2007/template_02.php On Jul 20, 2007, at 11:43 AM, Tee G. Peng wrote: On Jul 20, 2007, at 8:53 AM, CK wrote: Hi, Your solution was great, now I've developed a problem with a vertical scroll bar. some of the math has went awry. Would you assist? please post the url. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Wide Display
Oh, one more thing, are you serving your page application/xhtml+xml? If not, you probably should removed the ?xml version='1.0' encoding='iso-8859-1' ? from your top of your document and change the dtd to xhtm 1.0 (transitional or strict) or html 4.0 strict I don't know well enough to explain to you why? Hope this interview article can serve as a good introductory on doctype. From there you should be able to find more info from the links the article provided. http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/tommy-olsson.cfm tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Wide Display
On Jul 20, 2007, at 9:48 AM, CK wrote: That would help: http://bushidodeep.com/summer_2007/template_02.php On Jul 20, 2007, at 11:43 AM, Tee G. Peng wrote: try remove the 'min-height: 100%;' from the same div or make it less than 100% if you really must use it. I did a quick test on Firefox developer toolbar with the Edit CSS tool, it works and the footer sticks to the bottom of the browser screen. Is this what you wanted, fixed footer? May I know why you want the min-height: 100%; declared for this simply layout? Also, isn't 100% the default browser height? I have never used min-height before as I tend to code with conservative, anything that requires lots of hacking to make IE works, I try to avoid in most cases. Also, I haven't encounter a layout that needs to use min-height so far. By the way, I think 1600px max width is just too much, looking a your page, I don't see the reason this layout needs more than 900px, also it will be better if you wrap your navigation menu inside the div#bd_container, so that when a user have the browser open with a very wide screen, take 1600px for example, the menu wont' stay to the far left (assuming you have the max-width set to 900 or smaller) tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Wide Display
On Jul 20, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Tee G. Peng wrote: On Jul 20, 2007, at 9:48 AM, CK wrote: That would help: http://bushidodeep.com/summer_2007/template_02.php On Jul 20, 2007, at 11:43 AM, Tee G. Peng wrote: try remove the 'min-height: 100%;' from the same div or make it less than 100% if you really must use it. I did a quick test on Firefox developer toolbar with the Edit CSS tool, it works and the footer sticks to the bottom of the browser screen. Is this what you wanted, fixed footer? The footer is sticking fine. May I know why you want the min-height: 100%; declared for this simply layout? Also, isn't 100% the default browser height? I have never used min-height before as I tend to code with conservative, anything that requires lots of hacking to make IE works, I try to avoid in most cases. Also, I haven't encounter a layout that needs to use min-height so far. min-height and the extra divs are being used to set up a resolution dependent layout with JS By the way, I think 1600px max width is just too much, looking a your page, I don't see the reason this layout needs more than 900px, also it will be better if you wrap your navigation menu inside the div#bd_container, so that when a user have the browser open with a very wide screen, take 1600px for example, the menu wont' stay to the far left (assuming you have the max-width set to 900 or smaller) The nav header needs to span 100% tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Wide Display
The mime type is being served by a PHP dynamic script for selecting the correct mime type: http://www.workingwith.me.uk/articles/scripting/mimetypes On Jul 20, 2007, at 12:37 PM, Tee G. Peng wrote: Oh, one more thing, are you serving your page application/xhtml +xml? If not, you probably should removed the ?xml version='1.0' encoding='iso-8859-1' ? from your top of your document and change the dtd to xhtm 1.0 (transitional or strict) or html 4.0 strict I don't know well enough to explain to you why? Hope this interview article can serve as a good introductory on doctype. From there you should be able to find more info from the links the article provided. http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/tommy-olsson.cfm tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Re: please avoid forcing people to open pdf in browser!
Like I said, blame the messenger - blame the people who created the PDF for not making it accssible and easy for the users. Don't blame the PDF itself - it's innocent and in fact in my opinion, a beneficial technology Adobe has invented. My earlier complaint was not about whether not pdf should be used (there are places where it is quite useful - such as long e-books, catalogues, manuals, etc that are downloaded for offline viewing - or invoices, etc designed to be downloaded). I was just trying to draw attention to the issue of some sites forcing people to open pdfs in a browser window rather than giving the user the choice to download them (thereby causing frustration for users who are then stuck with a locked up browser while waiting for the browser plugin to start) and also that pdf should not be seen as a substitute for html content on a website. On some of the sites that do this, the pdf's are mostly short public press releases. I see no reason why there could not be alternate html versions of those (perhaps even created by using a conversion tool? - the rendering and html may not be perfect but surely this could help). I wonder what Google uses to do those the view as html when you see pdfs in search results. ... maybe there are some server-side conversion tools around that could be useful? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
