Re: [WSG] setting fontsize in body
On 2007/08/07 20:38 (GMT+0100) Alastair Campbell apparently typed: You could take Jacob Neilsons finding that small fonts were the most popular 'mistake' as proof that people don't know how to change their settings Or you could take it as proof that web designers as a group have perfect vision, and fail to understand normal web users as a group do not have perfect vision, resulting in fonts on web pages just right for most web designers and too small for most others. We are caught in something of a catch-22, as so many sites use small fonts compared to the default, or simply reducing the default because so many people don't know how to change it. Nielsen isn't the only one who has observed that designers impose text sizes smaller than the rest of the world prefers or requires. Note the first data point on Fixing The Web: Millions of people cannot participate fully online because most Web sites are built for people with perfect vision and the manual dexterity needed to operate a mouse. http://xhtml.com/en/future/fixing-the-web-1/ -- It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.George Washington Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] setting fontsize in body
one out of every three people have bad eye sight... this was one of the very few things I actually learnt at university [EMAIL PROTECTED] 9/08/2007 2:27:29 pm On 2007/08/07 20:38 (GMT+0100) Alastair Campbell apparently typed: You could take Jacob Neilsons finding that small fonts were the most popular 'mistake' as proof that people don't know how to change their settings Or you could take it as proof that web designers as a group have perfect vision, and fail to understand normal web users as a group do not have perfect vision, resulting in fonts on web pages just right for most web designers and too small for most others. We are caught in something of a catch-22, as so many sites use small fonts compared to the default, or simply reducing the default because so many people don't know how to change it. Nielsen isn't the only one who has observed that designers impose text sizes smaller than the rest of the world prefers or requires. Note the first data point on Fixing The Web: Millions of people cannot participate fully online because most Web sites are built for people with perfect vision and the manual dexterity needed to operate a mouse. http://xhtml.com/en/future/fixing-the-web-1/ -- It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.George Washington Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security requirements for inbound transmission. ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] IE: footer jumping
Hi peoples: When viewing this website I am in the middle of designing (http://www.jubileeworldharvest.com.au/Warriors) and I scroll over the menu (top) the footer jumps up a few em's Any idea on this?? I think I remember something about this Also if anyone has ie6, can they please let me know if the content background is transparent Thanks so much for this Take care The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] setting fontsize in body
On 9 Aug 2007, at 07:27, Felix Miata wrote: On 2007/08/07 20:38 (GMT+0100) Alastair Campbell apparently typed: You could take Jacob Neilsons finding that small fonts were the most popular 'mistake' as proof that people don't know how to change their settings Or you could take it as proof that web designers as a group have perfect vision, and fail to understand normal web users as a group do not have perfect vision, resulting in fonts on web pages just right for most web designers and too small for most others. or it could be, that a lot of designers don't have perfect eyesight, wear glasses and when sites were designed for 640x480 wanted to cram as much message into the above the fold area as they could so reduced the font size to do so. line length and readability have as much to do with the problem as font-size. I have poor eyesight and a huge screen, yet I still set my code editor to a bitmapped font of 9pt so I can see a decent amount of code at a time, the windows on my screen are generally no more than 800px wide. Millions of people cannot participate fully online because most Web sites are built for people with perfect vision and the manual dexterity needed to operate a mouse. http://xhtml.com/en/future/fixing-the-web-1/ millions of people cannot participate fully online because they don't have Internet Access. However, I do agree we shouldn't be preventing users adjusting font sizes. you did once post a useful method for setting a default on body that allowed the use of ems, but didn't change the users browser defaults, i can't remember what it was, though, was it set the body font-size to medium? or just use 100%. IE being broken requires some setting on body font-size or em sizing will break. what's the best pragmatic approach? given that we can't (commercially) just let the browsers dictate font and font size (as times new roman at default doesn't give you many words per line and *is* hard to read) how best to set a font-size that doesn't prevent users from choosing something else. my view has been that those that need something special, generally know how to do it and those that don't either don't care or can't be bothered. e.g I find white text on a dark background difficult to read, so rarely spend time on sites with a dark theme. Others I know find black text on white harder... flexibility and choice are the key surely? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE: footer jumping
Stuff jumping around like that in IE usually indicates a hasLayout issue.
An easy way to test is to do * { height: 1% }; it'll probably do strange
things to the layout, but if it stops the jumping, you know you then only
have to narrow it down to the offending element.
And no, the background's not transparent.
On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 17:12:50 +1000, Jermayn Parker
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi peoples:
When viewing this website I am in the middle of designing
(http://www.jubileeworldharvest.com.au/Warriors) and I scroll over the
menu (top) the footer jumps up a few em's
Any idea on this??
I think I remember something about this
Also if anyone has ie6, can they please let me know if the content
background is transparent
Thanks so much for this
Take care
The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of
Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound
transmission.
This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and
privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission.
Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au
Phone: +61 08 9264
*
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
--
Tyssen Design
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] IE: footer jumping
when i test it with the 1% height, the jumping stops like u said but how do
I test it for what the problem is??
sorry if this sounds a dumb question
On 8/9/07, John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Stuff jumping around like that in IE usually indicates a hasLayout issue.
An easy way to test is to do * { height: 1% }; it'll probably do strange
things to the layout, but if it stops the jumping, you know you then only
have to narrow it down to the offending element.
And no, the background's not transparent.
On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 17:12:50 +1000, Jermayn Parker
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi peoples:
When viewing this website I am in the middle of designing
(http://www.jubileeworldharvest.com.au/Warriors) and I scroll over the
menu (top) the footer jumps up a few em's
Any idea on this??
I think I remember something about this
Also if anyone has ie6, can they please let me know if the content
background is transparent
Thanks so much for this
Take care
The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of
Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound
transmission.
This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and
privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission.
Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au
Phone: +61 08 9264
*
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
--
Tyssen Design
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
--
JP2 Designs
http://www.jp2designs.com
http://www.germworks.net
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] IE: footer jumping
You narrow it down progressively by applying it to different elements
until you find the right one, e.g. #container * { }, #header * {}, #footer
* {} etc. When you work out it's in one of those larger containers, you
can then test individual elements.
On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 19:27:39 +1000, Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
when i test it with the 1% height, the jumping stops like u said but how
do
I test it for what the problem is??
sorry if this sounds a dumb question
On 8/9/07, John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Stuff jumping around like that in IE usually indicates a hasLayout
issue.
An easy way to test is to do * { height: 1% }; it'll probably do strange
things to the layout, but if it stops the jumping, you know you then
only
have to narrow it down to the offending element.
And no, the background's not transparent.
On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 17:12:50 +1000, Jermayn Parker
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi peoples:
When viewing this website I am in the middle of designing
(http://www.jubileeworldharvest.com.au/Warriors) and I scroll over the
menu (top) the footer jumps up a few em's
Any idea on this??
I think I remember something about this
Also if anyone has ie6, can they please let me know if the content
background is transparent
Thanks so much for this
Take care
The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission
of
Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound
transmission.
This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and
privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission.
Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au
Phone: +61 08 9264
*
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
--
Tyssen Design
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
--
Tyssen Design
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] setting fontsize in body
Tony Crockford wrote: However, I do agree we shouldn't be preventing users adjusting font sizes. Such a prevention is only relevant for IE-users who don't know how to use their browsers to prevent such prevention from taking effect. Actually, most pages break in IE because the designer think they can prevent font resizing, and hasn't taken into account what happens _when_ a user know how to use IE/win (any version) to that effect. you did once post a useful method for setting a default on body that allowed the use of ems, but didn't change the users browser defaults, i can't remember what it was, though, was it set the body font-size to medium? or just use 100%. IE being broken requires some setting on body font-size or em sizing will break. Not quite true. IE needs the *base* font-size to be set in percentage, if we want to use em further in without triggering the 'em font-resizing bug'... http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_13.html However, that *base* can be any page-container, not just body or html. For min/max workarounds (javascript or expressions) where IE6's internal font-size has to be read, we _can't_ declare font-size on html or body. Our declaration(s) will otherwise override IE's default, and return them to our workarounds, making them useless. In such cases we have to move our font-size *base* further in. Example of such a case... http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/moa_12tp2.html what's the best pragmatic approach? My own pragmatic approach follows. 1: to declare 'font-size: 100%' on *base* (whatever element that is), and not size down towards some conditional equalizer like the 62.5% and then up again. The less deviation from a 100% base, the less problems with font resizing options in browsers. given that we can't (commercially) just let the browsers dictate font and font size (as times new roman at default doesn't give you many words per line and *is* hard to read) how best to set a font-size that doesn't prevent users from choosing something else. 2: to choose font-families with high readability factor regardless of size, and make sure they don't deviate too much in readable size from the most used font-families our text may end up as. my view has been that those that need something special, generally know how to do it and those that don't either don't care or can't be bothered. e.g I find white text on a dark background difficult to read, so rarely spend time on sites with a dark theme. Others I know find black text on white harder... flexibility and choice are the key surely? 3: test that the solution actually works over a wide range of existing defaults and browser options. 4: keep on familiarizing ourselves with as many browsers, browser options and other smart solutions and variables that are placed between us and the end user, as possible, so we know what our solutions may be exposed to. 5: accept that we can't expect to get any of our personal design-preferences through to the end user - unaltered. There's rarely any need to accept major breaking though - provided we have designed for the web. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] IE7 on XP security problems
Hey Guys, I am having this problem, I used custom Firefox properties to get the desired opacity effect filter:alpha(opacity=65);-moz-opacity:.65;opacity:.65; Now it works just fine on IE7:VISTA , FF:VISTA , FF:XP , FF:MAC, SAFARI:MAC, when it comes to IE7:XP the browser throws in the activex controller security in the information bar and disables my opacity effect, however if you accept it will enable it again , but people might get paranoid and suspicious about such matter. Just wondering if there is a way around it ? sorry can't provide URL cause the site is on secure development server! Thanks alot *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE7 on XP security problems
On 8/9/07, M. Jama [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Guys, I am having this problem, I used custom Firefox properties to get the desired opacity effect filter:alpha(opacity=65);-moz-opacity:.65;opacity:.65; Now it works just fine on IE7:VISTA , FF:VISTA , FF:XP , FF:MAC, SAFARI:MAC, when it comes to IE7:XP the browser throws in the activex controller security in the information bar and disables my opacity effect, however if you accept it will enable it again , but people might get paranoid and suspicious about such matter. I am 99% certain your problem is with: filter:alpha(opacity=65); which is not a FF property, it's an IE ActiveX property. My suggestion is to hide this behind a conditional comment for IE 6 and use some other method with IE 7. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Jo M Hein is out of the office.
I will be out of the office starting 09/08/2007 and will not return until 13/08/2007. I will respond to your message when I return. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] (X)HTML Best Practice Sheet goes live
Hello everyone on the mailing lists that I have used to produce my (X)HTML Best Practice Sheet! It is no longer called a cheat sheet, and it has gone live today. Check it out at http://keryx.se/resources/html_elements.xhtml and feel free to use it or as you please - or improve it! There are three versions: XHTML, PDF and Open Office. Use whichever you prefer. Content-type: application/xhtml+xml and CSS3 selectors are used. It may look bad in some browsers and MSIE will choke! As for accessibility: There are a lot of headers. It might not be easy to listen with a screen reader, and I have yet to solve the question about sub-section headers in my table. Lars Gunther P.S. It has been tested with Firefox 2 and Opera 9.22 The latter has a peculiar bug: The topleft corner in the table shall have no border top or left. Scroll down and the back up and a border will hang in the air...) Safari for Windows does not support the check mark #10003; but renders most things OK. Reason for XHTML: I intend to use some XSLT on this doc further ahead... *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] (X)HTML Best Practice Sheet goes live
On 09/08/07, Keryx Web [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is no longer called a cheat sheet, and it has gone live today. Check it out at http://keryx.se/resources/html_elements.xhtml and feel free to use it or as you please - or improve it! 404. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] (X)HTML Best Practice Sheet goes live - correct link
Andrew Freedman skrev: Any chance that you could perhaps upload the page or post the correct link? Ooops! http://keryx.se/resources/html-elements.xhtml Sorry all! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] IE: footer jumping
thanks for the dumb down explanation :)
that makes sense :D
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 9/08/2007 5:58:14 pm
You narrow it down progressively by applying it to different elements
until you find the right one, e.g. #container * { }, #header * {},
#footer
* {} etc. When you work out it's in one of those larger containers, you
can then test individual elements.
On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 19:27:39 +1000, Jermayn Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
when i test it with the 1% height, the jumping stops like u said but
how
do
I test it for what the problem is??
sorry if this sounds a dumb question
On 8/9/07, John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Stuff jumping around like that in IE usually indicates a hasLayout
issue.
An easy way to test is to do * { height: 1% }; it'll probably do
strange
things to the layout, but if it stops the jumping, you know you then
only
have to narrow it down to the offending element.
And no, the background's not transparent.
On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 17:12:50 +1000, Jermayn Parker
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi peoples:
When viewing this website I am in the middle of designing
(http://www.jubileeworldharvest.com.au/Warriors) and I scroll over
the
menu (top) the footer jumps up a few em's
Any idea on this??
I think I remember something about this
Also if anyone has ie6, can they please let me know if the
content
background is transparent
Thanks so much for this
Take care
The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance
Commission
of
Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for
outbound
transmission.
This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential
and
privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of
this
email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received
this
email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance
Commission.
Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au
Phone: +61 08 9264
*
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
--
Tyssen Design
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
--
Tyssen Design
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
**
The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission
of Western Australia's Email security requirements for inbound
transmission.
**
The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of
Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound
transmission.
This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged.
If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,
dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact
the Insurance Commission.
Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au
Phone: +61 08 9264
*
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
RE: [WSG] (X)HTML Best Practice Sheet goes live - correct link
Hi Lars, Thanks for the hard work and time taken to do this. It's appreciated. May I make one suggestion please? The character reference (#10003;) you're using for the checkmark symbol does not render in IE6 or below. However, it does render perfectly in the latest versions of Opera, Firefox, Netscape and Safari for Windows. IE 6 and below renders it as a plain square box. If you don't mind this occurring in IE 6 and below, then please ignore my comment. If it is of importance, then maybe using a plus (+) sign (#043;) or another cross-browser recognized character reference will do. Thanks again, Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards Accessibility Designer website: http://frank.helpware.net email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member: Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.) Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) Supergroup Trading Ltd. Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa website: http://www.supergroup.co.za Work: +27 011 523 4931 Home: +27 011 455 5287 Fax: +27 011 455 3112 Mobile: +27 074 109 1908 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keryx Web Sent: Thursday, 09 August, 2007 22:57 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] (X)HTML Best Practice Sheet goes live - correct link Andrew Freedman skrev: Any chance that you could perhaps upload the page or post the correct link? Ooops! http://keryx.se/resources/html-elements.xhtml Sorry all! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
