Re: [WSG] standards-compliant designers and shoddy work poor QA
On Jan 13, 2008 5:34 AM, Steve Olive [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry to spoil your fun Michael, but 100% of Apple Mac OS X 10.4 or better don't have IE installed at all. There are also 100% of Linux users who don't have IE installed by default. Nokia, Motorola, etc don't have IE installed on mobile devices. The Asus EeePC, the hottest selling bit of technology at the moment, does not have IE installed. IE can't be installed unless the custom-built default OS is replaced by Windows XP, which is not a simple process and unlikely to be be attempted by regular users. Can't seem to find IE installed on my iPhone, either... -- - Matthew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
On Jan 13, 2008 5:51 AM, Peter Mount [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm tossing up whether to buy a Mac or to save my money and buy a new PC and just have Linux and Windows on it. I've read that Safari for Windows will help Web Developers without a Mac be able to develop for that. Unless you're a hardcore PC gamer, why not get an Intel Mac? Then you can run Windows (on Parallels or VMWare or Boot Camp), Linux, and MacOS on the same machine. Plus you get a *nix based OS that is much nicer to develop for than Windows. -- - Matthew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
Hi Peter, On 13-Jan-08, at 11:21 AM, Peter Mount wrote: I'm tossing up whether to buy a Mac or to save my money and buy a new PC and just have Linux and Windows on it. I've read that Safari for Windows will help Web Developers without a Mac be able to develop for that. Ultimately, your choice will be a personal one. I'd suggest going to an Apple store, and trying one out -- having Parallels, and seeing how my site looks in three or more operating systems at the same time is useful for /me/. Some of the reasons for switching to a Mac will not be directly webdesign related - most of the things that OS X can do may be achieved with some amount of effort on another operating system (Windows/Linux). However, many people believe that the system design, and the /relatively/ integrated nature of the various applications is a good enough reason to switch. YMMV, - Rahul. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] standards-compliant designers and shoddy work poor QA
Thank you for your sanity check steve! Joe On Jan 13 2008, at 05:34, Steve Olive wrote: On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:31:45 pm Michael Horowitz wrote: The answer is very simple. 100% of potential users of a website have IE on their computer. Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Sorry to spoil your fun Michael, but 100% of Apple Mac OS X 10.4 or better don't have IE installed at all. There are also 100% of Linux users who don't have IE installed by default. Nokia, Motorola, etc don't have IE installed on mobile devices. The Asus EeePC, the hottest selling bit of technology at the moment, does not have IE installed. IE can't be installed unless the custom-built default OS is replaced by Windows XP, which is not a simple process and unlikely to be be attempted by regular users. Cross platform compatibility, with fluid designs, is becoming even more of a requirement as people start to use non-Microsoft products. -- Regards, Steve Bathurst Computer Solutions URL: www.bathurstcomputers.com.au e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mobile: 0407 224 251 _ ... (0) ... / / \ .. / / . ) .. V_/_ Linux Powered! Registered Linux User #355382 Registered Ubuntu User #19586 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
Firefox renders pretty close on both systems, but you may find more differences between other browsers. A browser testing grid is helpful but not as helpful as few instances of XP with different browsers running in virtualisation. But don't get a mac just for testing sites on a mac, that you can do with emulators to some degree, get a mac for it's user interface, good free apps, ease of installing a full LAMP web server on, cross platform compatibility (using parallels or VMWare Fusion), ease of connectivity, tighter intelligent security, user-centred engineering, etc. In the past two years we have had several developers, business specialists and music freaks through the office carting their dells, IBMs, and Vaios through the office. With out any coercion or prodding from any of us in the mac-centric office they _always_ end up buying a mac for themselves and loving the one we give them to work with, including die-hard Ubuntu and XP users. You can buy an OEM XP licence when getting you mac for less than £100 (a mac and a windows box in the same case for less than an extra £100, great!) and with Parallels you can install your LAMP environment as a separate OS, mimicking your live server closely. I have yet to see as good a reason as the one for developers and web designers. But as others have said, it is up to you and how you work and how fast you can get your head round the mac way of working. I DO know that one of our contractors swapped over to a macbook white, maxed out with 4GB ram and a 320GB HD, and managed the transition in about a week. Familiarity with Unix got him halfway there and a few mac-friendly friends and acquaintances helped him out with other questions. Now he is already forgetting his XP shortcuts! But definitely talk o others who made the transition so you feel fully informed. As someone who works in a Mac-XP- server 2004 - Linux - redhat - ubuntu environment, and has to support all of them, I know where I'd put my money! Joe On Jan 13 2008, at 05:51, Peter Mount wrote: Is there a difference between Mac versions of browsers like Firefox and Safari or can I safely develop in non Mac versions and expect my web sites to behave the same on the Mac? Currently my main OS is Kubuntu but I'll soon be trialling Red Hat Desktop 5 Multi OS. Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] standards-compliant designers and shoddy work poor QA
Michael, get real You are an intelligent person ad saying something obviously inflammatory is very ignorant. Go to websidestory, searchenginewatch or perhaps look at your own Analytics stats and you will see that the statement 100% of potential users of a website have IE on their computers is just wrong. Just wrong. Stats for many of my sites, that appal to a wide commercial audience has IE at 80% or less. The rest of what you say is sensible and intelligently put, but please read your comms before sending hem as you do need a reality check on occasion. joe On Jan 13 2008, at 01:31, Michael Horowitz wrote: The answer is very simple. 100% of potential users of a website have IE on their computer. Every user smart enough to know there are non IE browsers are smart enough to know sometimes you have to switch back to IE to make the website work. The question becomes from a business perspective is the additional funds needed to train their developers to code in a compliants standard way, hire a proper qa department etc worth it. I've seen worse issues. Had someone ask me to review their new website and the first problem I found is you can't submit their contact form because the javascript is looking for a field that isn't there. Obvsiously the web design firm they hired dropped in a javascript for to check fields and was so incompetent they didn't customize it for this customer. The customer on the other hand didn't bother to check if their form submitted or go through it before paying them. Then there is the website I went to where you had to pay to read the authors short stories. Or you could enter user id test password test and enter the password protected site and read all the stories for free. Great web design firm he hired. QA has always been the area most software companies fail on. The QA guy is the mean person who tells you you screwed up. The last time I worked for someone they had a policy not to release a new version of their software when it had outstanding show stopper issues. So the CIO solved the problem by ordering QA to downgrade Show Stopper issues to a lower category of problem so he could send out the next release and sell more software to customers. Solving the actual problem was beyond them of course but if you downgraded it he solved the issue. I was not popular for suggesting this was not a good QA practice. But heck I was just the implementation specialist who had to deal with the customer when the software didn't work as promised. Shoddy work is nothing new. It will end when it impacts customers to the point it costs people business. Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Viable Design wrote: There is blame to go around, for sure. I had an accessibility issue just this morning, while trying to find out about filing an insurance claim on my husband's car (which someone ran into in the middle of the night ... and took off). In Firefox, my browser of choice, the text on the page I needed was overlapping, and many of the links were not clickable. I switched to IE, and the page was totally fine; everything was in perfect working order. I couldn't help but check the source code, and of course, it was designed using tables. There were 187 errors, according to the W3C validation service. I e-mailed the company and received a quick reply that they had recently discovered an error that was preventing a small number of customers from accessing their claim information. Pretty generic, as expected. The company is customer-service based, according to its policies and my experience, so why would the powers that be within it not choose to make its Web site accessible to all? It's not like they don't have the money to make it happen. I propose that most people would choose not to inform them of the difficulties they have in the first place. It reminds me of the days (long ago!) when I was a waitress. Most of the customers who had a bad experience due to the food or the service (from other waitresses, of course!) wouldn't complain or explain; they'd merely pay their bills and leave, never to return, intent on informing everyone they knew about that awful restaurant. And then I think about how many times I personally have chosen to just let bad experiences go in fast-food restaurants, convenience stores, gas stations. The girl who jerked my money out of my hand with a scowl on her face and no thank-you. The guy who took five minutes to wait on me because he was too busy on his cell phone. I have gone to the manager sometimes, but most of the time, I just consider it too much hassle and let it go. The same is surely true of Internet experiences, I propose, at an exponentially greater rate of occurrence. The next page is just a click away. If it's a page that must be accessed,
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
On 13/01/2008, at 7:18 PM, Matthew Pennell wrote: Unless you're a hardcore PC gamer, why not get an Intel Mac? Then you can run Windows (on Parallels or VMWare or Boot Camp), Linux, and MacOS on the same machine. Plus you get a *nix based OS that is much nicer to develop for than Windows. Even if you are a hardcore gamer, the Mac is a better platform. Booting Windows via Boot Camp is native, and the hardware in the MacBook Pro (for laptops), iMac or Mac Pro (for desktops) is pretty kick-ass. :) cYa, Avi -- MySource Matrix Product Evangelist Sydney / Melbourne / Canberra / Hobart / London / 2/340 Gore Street T: +61 (0) 3 9235 5400 Fitzroy, VIC F: +61 (0) 3 9235 5444 3202 W: http://www.squiz.net/ . Open Source - Own it - Squiz.net ./ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
Avi Miller wrote: Even if you are a hardcore gamer, the Mac is a better platform. Booting Windows via Boot Camp is native, and the hardware in the MacBook Pro (for laptops), iMac or Mac Pro (for desktops) is pretty kick-ass. :) cYa, Avi --MySource Matrix Product Evangelist Sydney / Melbourne / Canberra / Hobart / London / 2/340 Gore Street T: +61 (0) 3 9235 5400 Fitzroy, VIC F: +61 (0) 3 9235 5444 3202 W: http://www.squiz.net/ . Open Source - Own it - Squiz.net ./ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Thanks for all the replies. I suppose developing on a Mac is the best way to develop for a Mac Browser. I can't trust Windows for anything important (apart from testing) anymore anyway. I'm not a hardcore gamer so I can look at the Mac Mini or Macbook as well. I'll see what my wallet says in a few months. Have fun -- Peter Mount Web Development for Business Mobile: 0411 276602 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.petermount.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
There will be a new announcement this week, I'm sure, so hold on to your hats for the moment, but coming this week there is sure to be a god deal on Intel MacsBooks and Minis. On Jan 13 2008, at 11:09, Peter Mount wrote: Avi Miller wrote: Even if you are a hardcore gamer, the Mac is a better platform. Booting Windows via Boot Camp is native, and the hardware in the MacBook Pro (for laptops), iMac or Mac Pro (for desktops) is pretty kick-ass. :) cYa, Avi --MySource Matrix Product Evangelist Sydney / Melbourne / Canberra / Hobart / London / 2/340 Gore Street T: +61 (0) 3 9235 5400 Fitzroy, VIC F: +61 (0) 3 9235 5444 3202 W: http://www.squiz.net/ . Open Source - Own it - Squiz.net ./ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Thanks for all the replies. I suppose developing on a Mac is the best way to develop for a Mac Browser. I can't trust Windows for anything important (apart from testing) anymore anyway. I'm not a hardcore gamer so I can look at the Mac Mini or Macbook as well. I'll see what my wallet says in a few months. Have fun -- Peter Mount Web Development for Business Mobile: 0411 276602 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.petermount.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
Peter Mount wrote: I'm not a hardcore gamer so I can look at the Mac Mini or Macbook as well. I'll see what my wallet says in a few months. My Mini still kicks arse and it's only PPC! Get as much memory as it can eat, and a big hard drive, if you're going to run virtual machines, as they can really chew up disk. I also run XP and Ubuntu on other boxen, but the Mac is the machine I prefer to use. I was a late convert ;-) cheers mark *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
Joe Ortenzi wrote: There will be a new announcement this week, I'm sure, so hold on to your hats for the moment, but coming this week there is sure to be a god deal on Intel MacsBooks and Minis. Will the atheists have a good deal too? -- Peter Mount Web Development for Business Mobile: 0411 276602 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.petermount.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
can I safely develop in non Mac versions and expect my web sites to behave the same on the Mac? Behave? Yes. But... I don't think anyone's made this point yet -- one key difference between the platforms is the display of form elements. Elements like buttons and select menus and checkboxes, etc., pretty much belong to the operating system and the browser is only borrowing them. If your design has an expectation that those elements can be finely controlled, cross-platform, then you might get an unpleasant surprise. For instance, if you have documentation which says click on the button which looks like this [image of the button from a Windows browser] then Mac users may not have a button which looks like that. == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Developing for Mixed Browsers - Form Buttons
This is why most of us are now using default form styling or a very simple approach (fieldset, legend, and possibly submit button). Cameron Adams makes a few good points at: http://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2004/04/28/ , and of course - remember that his example button looks different in IE, Safari and Firefox! While this article is old, it covers most salient points and provides a simple approach that works well. Having said that, his 'Submit/Go' button is labelled as '', and the page options as \/, and these have two different effects (one shows a menu, one takes you to another page). Consistency is key - but remember that users usually browse in only one browser at a time. John Hancock identity.net.au PS. On a side-note, can we keep platform discussion to standards and implementation? 'My computer is bigger/better/faster/stronger' is fairly non-relevant to WSG and most of us aren't on the list to receive that kind of post. The cheapest way of getting a Mac testing environment is an older tower running OS X, and a G3 (or older) running IE5.5 if you care about these things. Personally I run an older mac for Safari 2 testing and older Firefox versions (1.5), and a newer one running Safari 3 and Firefox 2, alongside a PC running Safari, Opera, Firefox and IE7, with IE6 in the usual VPC, and also on an older box with remote desktop. If you're retentive about testing, then you may also wish to run a suite with flash turned off, a suite with javascript turned off and one with CSS turned off - not to mention the usual On 14/01/2008, at 12:47 PM, John Horner wrote: can I safely develop in non Mac versions and expect my web sites to behave the same on the Mac? Behave? Yes. But... I don't think anyone's made this point yet -- one key difference between the platforms is the display of form elements. Elements like buttons and select menus and checkboxes, etc., pretty much belong to the operating system and the browser is only borrowing them. If your design has an expectation that those elements can be finely controlled, cross-platform, then you might get an unpleasant surprise. For instance, if you have documentation which says click on the button which looks like this [image of the button from a Windows browser] then Mac users may not have a button which looks like that. = = = = = = = = == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments = = = = = = = = == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** kind regards, John Hancock Identity [EMAIL PROTECTED] t: +61 2 8012 0274 f: +61 2 9799 6135 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
On 14/01/2008, John Horner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For instance, if you have documentation which says click on the button which looks like this [image of the button from a Windows browser] then Mac users may not have a button which looks like that. The person using your page might not be looking at your page or clicking either =) best bet is to use on clear labelling of your form controls not on interpreting the visual design. for a momentary distraction on the importance of labelling see: http://www.ok-cancel.com/comic/28.html -- kind regards, Terrence Wood *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mixed Browsers - Form Buttons
Cameron Adams makes a few good points at: http://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2004/04/28/, and of course - remember that his example button looks different in IE, Safari and Firefox! While this article is old, it covers most salient points and provides a simple approach that works well. Having said that, his 'Submit/Go' button is labelled as '', and the page options as \/, and these have two different effects (one shows a menu, one takes you to another page). Consistency is key - but remember that users usually browse in only one browser at a time. also default buttons can look different on different versions of Windows... (there are still quite a lot of people out there still running Win98! - also 2000/etc is also still quite common) receive that kind of post. The cheapest way of getting a Mac testing environment is an older tower running OS X, yep - that's what I did ... got a second-hand G4 tower for $100 about a year ago ... dual boot OSX and OS9 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Developing for Mac Browsers
yeowtch! Several points here. The form elements come from the browser, not the API. fire up safari and firefox on your mac and you will see this. Safari has that silly round button thing and firefox has a more windowsy set of form elements. two: you can style form elements in css but safari doesn't play as well as firefox does in honouring your display. three: you should NEVER have guidance like click on the button which looks like this! gawd! You should be designing a form which is self explanatory and if it requires guidance, the guidance should be in the form itself, perhaps with mouseover text so it is accessibility compliant. How do those with poor site look for your button? They shouldn't have to, the button should announce itself for all to understand! Sorry for the rant . but really Joe On Jan 14 2008, at 01:47, John Horner wrote: can I safely develop in non Mac versions and expect my web sites to behave the same on the Mac? Behave? Yes. But... I don't think anyone's made this point yet -- one key difference between the platforms is the display of form elements. Elements like buttons and select menus and checkboxes, etc., pretty much belong to the operating system and the browser is only borrowing them. If your design has an expectation that those elements can be finely controlled, cross-platform, then you might get an unpleasant surprise. For instance, if you have documentation which says click on the button which looks like this [image of the button from a Windows browser] then Mac users may not have a button which looks like that. == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
