Re: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup
On 22 May 2008, at 05:15, Julián Landerreche wrote: I wasn't convinced at first because: - fieldset/legends are used in forms to group controls. This is common usage/practice, and even more, it's the usage recommended by the W3C, as some of you already remarked on this thread, .ç Yes, that is what fieldset is designed for. I wasn't convinced by counter arguments because: - this isn't a CSS/JS issue. In fact, the idea is to have it as structural labels/markup, that will be probably invisible for sighted users. I'm not trying to achieve something fancy, although I have said that fieldset+legend looks fine, and more important, helpful for users when CSS is disabled (browser default CSS) Most of the arguments against it (at least those which haven't been shot down already) were about semantics, not CSS or JS. And also, not convinced because of this other reasoning (hope it's not a fallacy): - if it validates (true) So do layout tables. DTDs can't describe the language in /that/ much detail. Eye halve a spelling chequer It came with my pea sea It plainly marques four my revue Miss steaks eye kin knot sea. and - if the W3C doesn't explicitly says anything about not using fieldset/legend outside forms (¿true?) They don't say you shouldn't use brbr to indicate the start of a new paragraph either. If the spec explicitly listed everything you shouldn't abuse markup for, it would be huge. Tables are an exception due to the widespread abuse they had when the spec was written. then - it could be used to add semantics or meaning in a new way outside forms. If that meaning is These controls should be groups, and here is their caption. Let me add other real-world examples of using/combining HTML elements/attributes to create new semantics, all well known by us: - ul li a = a navigation menu The semantics there are no new. A navigation menu is a list of links. This is just using the right markup for it. - div + abbr + span + predifined classes = microformats (chunks of HTML with added meaning). As Jason stated above: divs are for separating components/sections of a page and can be semantically very strong, especially when given a meaningful class or id name Microformats take some markup that is *correct* for a given pattern of content, add some class names and then document the pattern. Probably, at first, nobody though that by combining an unordered list of items with links could be seen as a navigation. The table of contents on the HTML 4 spec uses lists. So the idea has been around for a long while. In fact, before the Web Standards mindset change, not too many people were doing nav menus that way. No, they were using tables because the liked the way they rendered in browsers. And that's probably my point: trying to add new semantics and better accessibility with current HTML elements. The closest you can come to adding new semantics is agreed sets of class names, which isn't a very good way, but was about the only option open during the days when HTML wasn't being developed. What you are suggesting is taking old semantics and using them even though they don't fit. Fieldsets group controls and their labels. You can't just throw away all but the first two words of that. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup
Judging by how quickly you replied, I am doubtful that you managed to test every browser version known to mankind before you replied - one or two combinations doesn't really make effective proof! In any case, is this just a case of the browser inserting what it thinks should be there, as with tbody ? Regards, Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hassan Schroeder An easy theory to test, and hence, to prove utterly wrong :-) Not that I support the idea of using a fieldset outside a form, but bogus is bogus... -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)
Accessibility is really not that difficult to put in place - I also believe as professionals providing web design / development services that this should not be an addon that we charge but part of what the client should expect too get - imagine a builder charging you to make your house compliant. :) I have a strong belief that here in Australia a lot of websites are going to be tested on discrimination grounds - do you want to be the one bearing this as the provider? Compliant? I see it (and try to explain it) in much more more obvious way - as not wanting to exclude people ... ... for any business locking out potential customers is bad! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)
My advice would be to try as hard as you can NOT to sell accessibility. Sell your overall services, but mention that your competitors 'tend' to leave their customers vulnerable to law suits, exclude customers for no good reason, etc. Tell your clients that your competitors are literally 'sub-standard'. If your client looks for a technical explanation of this, explain that your work is intended to be 'forwards-compatible', tell them that you don't expect to get any follow up work when you are finished, etc Success in any venture requires you to be different from everyone else, somehow. Regards, Mike Mike Brockington Web Development Specialist www.calcResult.com www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk www.edinburgh.gov.uk This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the author alone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Judging by how quickly you replied, I am doubtful that you managed to test every browser version known to mankind before you replied - one or two combinations doesn't really make effective proof! Au contraire, one is enough to prove the contention wrong, but in any case, testing FF2, Safari 3, and IE7 provides the same result. Feel free to expand that to your satisfaction :-) In any case, is this just a case of the browser inserting what it thinks should be there, as with tbody ? No. Again, easy enough to test. -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] AJAX short courses london
Hi Paul, We can book you on an online course: Building Rich Internet Applications With PHP 5 and AJAX If that's of any interest? Price is about right and it runs over 6 3-hour sessions with live instructor tuition and 2-way chat. All sessions are recorded so you can play back at your convenience. Email me off-list if you are interested. Cheers, Nick Paul Collins wrote: Hi all, I hope this is on topic. I'm trying to find a short course on AJAX in london and having troubles finding one that is of a reasonable price (IE- less than £300 for a half day). Could anyone recommend me one or possibly a good school to look into? Thanks for any help, Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Nick Roper partner logical elements innovative web and internet solutions zend/php mysql approved partner email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: +44 1749 676798 www: www.logical.co.uk skype: nick.roper / +44 20 7870 9587 logical elements, 34 Chamberlain Street, Wells, Somerset, BA5 2PJ --- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup
On 22 May 2008, at 11:12, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In any case, is this just a case of the browser inserting what it thinks should be there, as with tbody ? With tbody, the DTD says what must be there (and also that the start and end tags for tbody are optional). The DTD allows fieldset pretty much anywhere a block level element is allowed (since forms can contain pretty much any block element, and thus a fieldset needs to be allowed inside them in order to go inside forms properly). -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] AJAX short courses london
Hi all, I hope this is on topic. I'm trying to find a short course on AJAX in london and having troubles finding one that is of a reasonable price (IE- less than £300 for a half day). Could anyone recommend me one or possibly a good school to look into? Thanks for any help, Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hassan Schroeder Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 2:27 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural mark-up Au contraire, one is enough to prove the contention wrong, No, its not. In this case, if any single browser breaks a related script, then the mark-up cannot be used - working on the majority is not enough to make it viable. Since I believe we both think that the mark-up in question is inadvisable, finding a physical reason to back up the semantics would actually be a good thing. Anyway, thanks for doing two tests that I don't currently have the time for! Regards, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 8:26 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hassan Schroeder Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 2:27 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural mark-up Au contraire, one is enough to prove the contention wrong, No, its not. In this case, if any single browser breaks a related script, then the mark-up cannot be used - working on the majority is not enough to make it viable. Does that mean we should drop the ABBR element because IE can't handle it properly? -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup
Thierry Koblentz wrote: Does that mean we should drop the ABBR element because IE can't handle it properly? Better to just drop IE ;-) mark *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup
Thierry Koblentz wrote: Does that mean we should drop the ABBR element because IE can't handle it properly? You have the answer: http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/how-to_fix_the_ABBR_element.asp ;) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Accessibility and Joomla
I¹m just starting to (try to!) learn Joomla as I¹m going to have to use it on a few upcoming sites. Having looked at the html output as I work through some of the tutorials, I¹m wondering how accessible sites created in Joomla are, and if anyone has any experience/knowledge of good sites to help in this area ... ? Obviously I¹m going to be doing my own stylesheets and taking it out of table layout. At the moment I¹m wondering if it¹d be easier to develop the site structure/CSS in Dreamweaver and then move it into Joomla. Cheers Susie *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility and Joomla
Depending which version of Dreamweaver you have, There was a plug-in for Dreamweaver that assisted you in setting up Joomla templates and made sure all the keyword section where added to interface with the CMS. William Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I¹m just starting to (try to!) learn Joomla as I¹m going to have to use it on a few upcoming sites. Having looked at the html output as I work through some of the tutorials, I¹m wondering how accessible sites created in Joomla are, and if anyone has any experience/knowledge of good sites to help in this area ... ? Obviously I¹m going to be doing my own stylesheets and taking it out of table layout. At the moment I¹m wondering if it¹d be easier to develop the site structure/CSS in Dreamweaver and then move it into Joomla. Cheers Susie *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility and Joomla
On 5/22/08, Susie Gardner-Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm just starting to (try to!) learn Joomla as I'm going to have to use it on a few upcoming sites. Having looked at the html output as I work through some of the tutorials, I'm wondering how accessible sites created in Joomla are, and if anyone has any experience/knowledge of good sites to help in this area ... ? i saw a joomla site last night that had considerable accessibility issues with it. it didn't even pass the wai module in ff web dev tool bar. dwain -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] accessibility/usability in a poll: check a radio button when focusing on a text input field
Hi. Probably this can't be done without (unobstrusive) Javascript. In simple polls, sometimes there is an Other option that is also provided with a text input so visitors can give some feedback on this other option. Like this: ( ) Option 1 (o) Option 2 ( ) Option 3 ( ) Other: [ I prefer this option because... ] The problem is: In that example, the user has filled in the text input on the Other option, but the selected radio is still the Option 2 So, when the user focus/clicks directly on the text input field, the corresponding radio button (Other) isn't selected. Then, he submits the poll, but because he didn't choose the Other option, he really didn't submit the option he thought he has chosen. The desired behavior (selecting the Other radio button when focusing on the text input field) will probably be easily achievable with some JS, right? But here I am, asking to this list if you know a better approach to this issue. Thanks. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] accessibility/usability in a poll: check a radio button when focusing on a text input field
If you didn't want to use JS at all - you could put some basic logic in the action script that processes the form. If the user wrote something in the other option, then it is pretty simple to simply change the radiobutton values accordingly before doing final processing (like emailing to the admin). JS should always be an enhancement :) Cheers Adam On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 2:57 PM, Julián Landerreche [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi. Probably this can't be done without (unobstrusive) Javascript. In simple polls, sometimes there is an Other option that is also provided with a text input so visitors can give some feedback on this other option. Like this: ( ) Option 1 (o) Option 2 ( ) Option 3 ( ) Other: [ I prefer this option because... ] The problem is: In that example, the user has filled in the text input on the Other option, but the selected radio is still the Option 2 So, when the user focus/clicks directly on the text input field, the corresponding radio button (Other) isn't selected. Then, he submits the poll, but because he didn't choose the Other option, he really didn't submit the option he thought he has chosen. The desired behavior (selecting the Other radio button when focusing on the text input field) will probably be easily achievable with some JS, right? But here I am, asking to this list if you know a better approach to this issue. Thanks. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- - http://myfitness.ning.com A community of people that care about their health and fitness Free fitness videos, recipes, blogs, photos etc. -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
