Re: [WSG] MA in web development
Well my first thought Marius is why you feel a need for a division between scientific and artistic? Much of web design, website creation, development, whatever you want to call it, I would much more closely describe as something more akin to industrial and or product design, where much more than what happens on the server needs to be addresses. User-centred design for example starts with lots of study with the userbase in order to discern what people would be expecting from the organisation or campaign and their website. This is a starting point for a website and has nothing to do with marketing and everything to do with creating a useful, usable and successful site. But this is neither design or scientific, (although there are things being measured and described here). As I mentioned earlier, the concepts underpinning web development and design (should I try to coin a new term of web creator?) are not new or time sensitive. HTML 4 and XHTML have been around for many years and will be around for the next 5 for sure and any coder worth hi salt has already started to look at HTML 5 and XHTML 2 and trying to understand how to use it. User-centred design has been around for decades nd will continue to o so. Apache isn't a new thing and JS and PHP are long in the tooth servers aren't going away and people still have expectations at the HCI (Human Computer Interface) which may look a little different, but remain essentially unchanged for the last decade at least. So, to reiterate, any MA course should provide the tools to fish rather than the fish itself and should not allow itself to be providing significant am amounts of training in concepts that will easily age. Joe On Jun 12 2008, at 22:36, Marius Milcher wrote: I'm studying BSc Business Information Technology at London South Bank University. It has been around for nearly 10 years now. There is an MSc available too...[1] At an undergraduate level we study, at length, Systems Analysis, Information Architecture , Dynamic Programming languages (ASP, PHP) alongside Usability and HCI. An initial question I have, with regard to an MA in Web Development, is whether a scientific approach should be taken (in the form of an MSc) or whether a an artistic/design approach should be taken (in the form of an MA). Personally, if dealing with web 'development' then a scientific approach would be desired. I think this might be a matter of debate though, given the current and ever evolving landscape of web development and the fact is is still an emerging discipline in many respects, as has been mentioned regarding standards. I think that the subject of Web Development is an extremely exciting one and one and one that I could be persuaded to pursue. However, I feel, given its rapid evolution and emergence, any course structure that is agreed upon could potentially be outdated by the time it comes to teaching it... Maybe in true spirit of the collaborative nature of Web 2.0 this course could be structured and administered through wikis and taught in an open-source way... Given the webs emergence from academia. But that I fear, is maybe a pipe-dream... Thoughts?? Regards, Marius Milcher [1] LSBU BIT Course info http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/bcim/progs/bit/ -- Marius G. Milcher Web Design IT Consultancy -- w: http://www.mariusmilcher.com e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] t: +44(0)7961 436 733 skype: mgmilcher -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.typingthevoid.com www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] IE7 css float art
I was trying to work out a small problem I was having today with css floats and clears on a page in IE7 (page looked fine in Firefox)... I did a google search and found this: http://css-class.com/articles/explorer/floats/floatandcleartest1.htm viewing that page in IE7 shows an *extreme* version of the problem! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Help with div tags in Dreamweaver CS3
Hi Susan, It looks like it's quite a big jump to move to all CSS for you right now, especially for that design which isn't perhaps the most straightforward one with lots of images, image replacement and Flash. There's nothing wrong in taking it in steps - read Jeffery Zeldman's book Designing with Web Standards (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0321385551/ref%3Dnosim/jeffreyzeldmanprA/), which will give you some guidelines on how to make those steps. This will be a better approach than trying to use the CSS templates in Dreamweaver, as you'll learn more along the way. Then you can interatively improve the site as you learn more CSS, and come back to this list with any questions you find along the way. All the best, Rachel -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Susan Levin Sent: Thu 12/06/2008 19:01 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Help with div tags in Dreamweaver CS3 Hello everyone. I am pretty new to Dreamweaver and CSS and Flash. I have created pieces for a new website and I desperately want to make the jump to using CSS for all placement...but don't know where to start. My client is patiently waiting and I am pulling my hair out by now. A comp of what I am trying to get my master page to look like can be found here: http://www.thewowfactorcakes.com/comp.html And here is the page that is up and waiting for some placement help: http://www.thewowfactorcakes.com/ I need first of all the make the white background go away for both the handwriting swf file and the fade in and fade out images file below that. I created this page from a one column fixed centered template in Dreamweaver CS3. Can anyone come to my rescue? Sincerely, mango2020 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** winmail.dat
Re: [WSG] a good practise for adding email link (mailto)?
I'll choose the secure contact form if there is a fully accessible one.. On 6/13/08, Fuji kusaka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi The best way is to encrypt the email address and make use of a js. This will avoid loads of problems specially spamming. This is simple just follow the instructions here http://jumk.de/nospam/stopspam.html Fuji -- Regards, Dani Iswara http://daniiswara.net/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Semantic coding of posted in
On 13 Jun 2008, at 04:05, Jason Ray wrote: Definition lists are for definitions, which this is not. Not necessarily so. The W3C gives character dialogue as an example usage of a DL http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html#h-10.3 which seems to encourage finding less literal uses for it -- and plenty of designers use the tag to semantically group collections of semantically-connected text chunks/images etc in all manner of creative ways. -- Rick Lecoat www.sharkattack.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Semantic coding of posted in
Rick Lecoat wrote: On 13 Jun 2008, at 04:05, Jason Ray wrote: Definition lists are for definitions, which this is not. Not necessarily so. The W3C gives character dialogue as an example usage of a DL http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html#h-10.3 which seems to encourage finding less literal uses for it -- and plenty of designers use the tag to semantically group collections of semantically-connected text chunks/images etc in all manner of creative ways. Where's the character dialogue example? I thought that the example found at http://tantek.com/presentations/2005/03/elementsofxhtml/ (the slide called XHTML compound: Conversation) was much better semantically. What's actually wrong with using a simple unordered list? For example: div class=post-meta Posted in: ul class=categories lia href=#.../a/li ... /ul /div -Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] MA in web development
I entirely agree Joe. Especially your point that web design is more akin to product design. An MA course should assume that the student has a sufficient understanding of the fundamentals involved, the fish if you will: HCI, Databases, Dynamic Programming, (X)HTML, CSS, Usability, Design Methodologies etc. and, as an entry requirement, that this knowledge come from a relevant computing degree. However I doubt whether there are enough fish in the see with this subject. That web development might be a bit too tightly focussed. A Master in Web Mastering? M 2008/6/13 Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Well my first thought Marius is why you feel a need for a division between scientific and artistic? Much of web design, website creation, development, whatever you want to call it, I would much more closely describe as something more akin to industrial and or product design, where much more than what happens on the server needs to be addresses. User-centred design for example starts with lots of study with the userbase in order to discern what people would be expecting from the organisation or campaign and their website. This is a starting point for a website and has nothing to do with marketing and everything to do with creating a useful, usable and successful site. But this is neither design or scientific, (although there are things being measured and described here). As I mentioned earlier, the concepts underpinning web development and design (should I try to coin a new term of web creator?) are not new or time sensitive. HTML 4 and XHTML have been around for many years and will be around for the next 5 for sure and any coder worth hi salt has already started to look at HTML 5 and XHTML 2 and trying to understand how to use it. User-centred design has been around for decades nd will continue to o so. Apache isn't a new thing and JS and PHP are long in the tooth servers aren't going away and people still have expectations at the HCI (Human Computer Interface) which may look a little different, but remain essentially unchanged for the last decade at least. So, to reiterate, any MA course should provide the tools to fish rather than the fish itself and should not allow itself to be providing significant am amounts of training in concepts that will easily age. Joe On Jun 12 2008, at 22:36, Marius Milcher wrote: I'm studying BSc Business Information Technology at London South Bank University. It has been around for nearly 10 years now. There is an MSc available too...[1] At an undergraduate level we study, at length, Systems Analysis, Information Architecture , Dynamic Programming languages (ASP, PHP) alongside Usability and HCI. An initial question I have, with regard to an MA in Web Development, is whether a scientific approach should be taken (in the form of an MSc) or whether a an artistic/design approach should be taken (in the form of an MA). Personally, if dealing with web 'development' then a scientific approach would be desired. I think this might be a matter of debate though, given the current and ever evolving landscape of web development and the fact is is still an emerging discipline in many respects, as has been mentioned regarding standards. I think that the subject of Web Development is an extremely exciting one and one and one that I could be persuaded to pursue. However, I feel, given its rapid evolution and emergence, any course structure that is agreed upon could potentially be outdated by the time it comes to teaching it... Maybe in true spirit of the collaborative nature of Web 2.0 this course could be structured and administered through wikis and taught in an open-source way... Given the webs emergence from academia. But that I fear, is maybe a pipe-dream... Thoughts?? Regards, Marius Milcher [1] LSBU BIT Course info http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/bcim/progs/bit/ -- Marius G. Milcher Web Design IT Consultancy -- w: http://www.mariusmilcher.com e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] t: +44(0)7961 436 733 skype: mgmilcher -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.typingthevoid.com www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- -- Marius G. Milcher Web Design IT Consultancy
Re: [WSG] Semantic coding of posted in
On 13 Jun 2008, at 12:07, Robert O'Rourke wrote: Where's the character dialogue example? Just above the heading for '10.3.1 Visual rendering of lists' -- Rick Lecoat www.sharkattack.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Firefox 3
Hi guys, Official launching date of Firefox 3 is on 17th June, 08, get it and enjoy and the below link for those who like to spread firefox (best in the business) all over the world. http://www.spreadfirefox.com/en-US/worldrecord Thanks Sundar *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Multiple Language Domains
Hi Guys, I am currently in the middle of building a site which has to be bi-lingual. We have two domains for the site www.ourwales.org.uk and www.cymruni.org.uk I am looking for suggestions/help on how to handle the two domains. Currently ourwales is the prominant/main domain and the one to which the IP details of the site are set. We are then using an alias within apache to also point cymruni to the same site. So you see the same site when you visit, but have two different domains. Both these domains are advertised. I have a few worries though, currently both domains point to the english language version of the site, this will be changed so cymruni goes to the Welsh language side. Although the language is the same and its possible for people to flip between the two languages is it possible that google will see the site as duplicate content? Also we are having trouble getting the alias to append the lang=cy to it on first visit. My thought was to make the ourwales domain the prominant one, and set up a folder with a 301 redirect in it which says cymruni.org has moved permanantly to ourwales.org.uk/lang=cy that way we have only one domain indexed. The reason for writing to this group is two fold 1, how does this affect usability and what is 'best practice' in this situation? 2, How have/would you implement a problem like this? Ideally we want to provide the smoothest and friendliest experience to both the user and SE whichever domain they use. thanks Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Multiple Language Domains
Paul McCann wrote: I am currently in the middle of building a site which has to be bi-lingual. Currently ourwales is the prominant/main domain and the one to which the IP details of the site are set. We are then using an alias within apache to also point cymruni to the same site. I have a few worries though, currently both domains point to the english language version of the site, this will be changed so cymruni goes to the Welsh language side. So then you drop the alias and make the Welsh site a separate virtual host -- no redirects needed. FWIW, -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest
I will be out of the office between 16/6/2008 and 11/7/2008 inclusive. During this period any matters requiring the attention of the Director Web Content should be directed to Simi Parker via email or on ext. 2822. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Semantic coding of posted in
A dialogue makes a lot more sense than a list of items which is what Jens-Uwe is suggesting. I don't believe the usage of a definition list for a dialogue suggests that DL and DD can be used 'in all manner of creative ways.' Its primary purpose is to identify a term and its definition. It works well in a dialogue in that it identifies the speaker, then offsets what the person has said - you could see this as defining the person by his speech. It's when we start to get overly creative that we break the rules of the language and end up with markup which is no longer semantic, but gibberish - it may render the way we want it to, but it has lost its original intended meaning. Jens-Uwe's example could even be put into a P element if he wants it displayed inline as he put in his first post: Posted in: Category 1, Category 2 pPosted in: Category 1, Category 2/p I would suggest a low-level heading (depending on the heading hierarchy of the site) or simply a paragraph (depending on the context of the list within the page) for 'posted in' followed by an unordered list if he wants it to display as a bulleted list, or he can remove the bullets with his stylesheet if he doesn't want them, but this still remains a list of categories in which things are posted not a definition of 'posted in': Posted in: - Category 1 - Category 2 h5Posted in:/h5 ul liCategory 1/li liCategory 2/li /ul The context will really determine what is best, but either of those options make more sense than a definition list. Jason On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 8:12 PM, Rick Lecoat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 13 Jun 2008, at 04:05, Jason Ray wrote: Definition lists are for definitions, which this is not. Not necessarily so. The W3C gives character dialogue as an example usage of a DL http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html#h-10.3 which seems to encourage finding less literal uses for it -- and plenty of designers use the tag to semantically group collections of semantically-connected text chunks/images etc in all manner of creative ways. -- Rick Lecoat www.sharkattack.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Multiple Language Domains
Paul McCann wrote: I have a few worries though, currently both domains point to the english language version of the site, this will be changed so cymruni goes to the Welsh language side. Although the language is the same and its possible for people to flip between the two languages is it possible that google will see the site as duplicate content? If there's 2 languages, surely the *language* is not the same, although the content covers the same items? AFAIK Google indexes the words and the words will be different. Also we are having trouble getting the alias to append the lang=cy to it on first visit. My thought was to make the ourwales domain the prominant one, and set up a folder with a 301 redirect in it which says cymruni.org has moved permanantly to ourwales.org.uk/lang=cy that way we have only one domain indexed. Talk to the people who run www.direct.gov.uk - they do this quite well. 2, How have/would you implement a problem like this? Umm, why would I implement a *problem*? ;-) Cheers mark *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] MA in web development
Hi Jason I completed a BA(Internet Studies), majoring in design, at Curtin Uni nearly two years ago. I could have enrolled for the MA as the only pre-requisite was a degree, but chose breadth rather than depth for various reasons. Current course outlines for the MA: http://handbook.curtin.edu.au/courses/30/301512.html ; BA: http://handbook.curtin.edu.au/courses/30/303574.html . You can see that many of the subjects are the same: at the postgraduate level they cost more. I'd like to hope the assessment is more rigorous too, but I wouldn't like to put money on it. Getting into the nitty-gritty of the degree, I'd like to hope that any design/development assessments inlcuded accessibility as an essential assessment criterion. At post-graduate level I would certainly expect to see project management and information management either as specific subjects or as elements of broader subjects. Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason Grant Sent: Thursday, 12 June 2008 8:31 AM To: wsg Subject: [WSG] MA in web development Hello everyone, Last night a proposal has been hinted at me to put together an MA course in web development for a UK University. That's all I have been told so far. I was wondering what people were feeling such a course ought to contain. I have my views of course, but would not like to influence the feedback at this point. All suggestions are very much appreciated. Regards, Jason Grant www.flexewebs.com/semantix *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***attachment: winmail.dat
Re: [WSG] MA in web development
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 9:12 PM, Marius Milcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: HCI, Databases, Dynamic Programming, (X)HTML, CSS, Usability, Design Methodologies etc. and, as an entry requirement, that this knowledge come from a relevant computing degree. M I know that is how universities typically work, and it's silly to expect the web sections of universities to work any other way. So consider this with a grain of salt, as an unrelated rant. But it strikes me as foolish to assume that those skills could *only* come from a computing degree, and at least twice as foolish to assume that they're *likely* to have come from a computing degree. Do CS degrees really include design and usability? Do any of them actually teach database fundamentals anymore, or do they just teach oracle? Do any teach design, or do they just teach illustrator and photoshop, do they teach dynamic programming, or do they teach Java or c#? Do you know of any undergraduate university course whose curriculum actually matches up to the demands that web professionals face in the real world? (if you do I'd like to know about it!), or are most of them really just lopsided short sighted, vendor sponsored courses, as I've seen in the piles of complaints and evidence? If I were hiring, or deciding who is qualified to enter post graduate studies, the presence of a degree would be the last thing I would check. Actual measurable competency is far more important, and a degree hardly guarantees that. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
