Re: [WSG] seeking JavaScript Bible comments
Paul Novitski skrev: I would love to get your critical comments on Danny Goodman's JavaScript Bible http://ca.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0470069163.html I'm updating the book to its 7th edition and am making some significant changes, including upgrading it to include separation of layers progressive enhancement. OK. You are addressing my biggest gripe. I'm sure you will get the word unobtrusive in there as well! JQuery has just demonstrated that even a library can be built using no browser sniffing at all. Capability testing a.k.a. feature detection and the new kid on the block, bug detection, really takes a lot of focus away from the compatibility tables. Do you have any other criticisms of the book, either minor or major, that I should consider in the rewrite? I would be grateful for your detailed remarks. I am developing the DOM Scripting courses for the Web Standards Projects Educational Fask Force. High on my personal wish list is a chapter on JavaScript from an academic, computer science, perspective. Also, the first examples of JavaScript tend to use document.write when illustrating the simplest parts of the language. Usage of document.write should be banned from day one. Encourage the readers to test simple stuff in a console (e.g. Firebug) or the JS-shell instead. (Appendix C) Namespacing (or the lack thereof) is another issue that should be addressed early on. As soon as example code becomes realistic, it should be enclosed in a self executing function or in some other way be hidden from the global scope. ECMAScript 3.1 is coming along soon(?). It warrants a discussion. ES 3.1 will have built in functionality for JSON. JSON is missing in the 6th edition *entirely*. Lars Gunther *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] AUTO: Rachel Booth/HeadOffice/DHS is out of the office. (returning Mon 16/02/2009)
I am out of the office from Mon 09/02/2009 until Mon 16/02/2009. For RRHACS web publishing requests, please contact the Web Services Team - (rrhacs@dhs.vic.gov.au). Thank you. Note: This is an automated response to your message Re: [WSG] seeking JavaScript Bible comments sent on 9/2/09 7:24:47. This is the only notification you will receive while this person is away. _ This email contains confidential information intended only for the person named above and may be subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying or use of this information is prohibited. The Department provides no guarantee that this communication is free of virus or that it has not been intercepted or interfered with. If you have received this email in error or have any other concerns regarding its transmission, please notify postmas...@dhs.vic.gov.au _ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Implication of empty divs
Hi all, Are there any (seriously) bad implications of having empty DIVs around your HTML document? I try to avoid using them personally, but there are cases where the visual design has forced me to add empty divs (or spans) just to achieve the look. Apart from adding extra weight and cluttering the document, I understand screen readers do not pick up divs and spans? Would I be better off to insert these meaningless decorative tags using javascript and modifying the DOM, while non-javascript users would see a more cut down version of the design? Do screen readers pick up javascript and events? Cheers, ben *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] seeking JavaScript Bible comments
Also, the first examples of JavaScript tend to use document.write when illustrating the simplest parts of the language. Usage of document.write should be banned from day one. Encourage the readers to test simple A decade ago (Netscape 4 era) I used document.write in some javascript widgets for people display some content from another site by using a script tag. They still work in current browsers but javascript has come a long way since then! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs
On 8/2/09 23:33, Ben Lau wrote: Are there any (seriously) bad implications of having empty DIVs around your HTML document? I try to avoid using them personally, but there are cases where the visual design has forced me to add empty divs (or spans) just to achieve the look. Apart from adding extra weight and cluttering the document, I understand screen readers do not pick up divs and spans? The short answer is that at most they would treat an empty div or span as a blank line or space. I wouldn't worry about it. The long answer is that it is possible to overload div and span elements with content and functionality in other ways that might get picked up by screen readers (using ARIA), but that's not the scenario you're describing. Would I be better off to insert these meaningless decorative tags using javascript and modifying the DOM, while non-javascript users would see a more cut down version of the design? As far as I can see, you would not be helping non-JS users by doing so. Do screen readers pick up javascript and events? Popular screen readers are not web browsers themselves. Instead, they are system-wide services that provide an aural and/or braille output and keyboard input interface to the desktop environment and applications like office software, media players, and (most importantly, for your purposes) popular web browsers. See links at: http://delicious.com/benjaminhawkeslewis/howScreenReadersWork Popular web browsers, of course, can pick up on JavaScript and events. But DHTML communication to screen readers users can break down on various levels. For example: 1. Failure to bind functionality to standard UI controls like buttons, hyperlinks, and form controls might lead to screen readers users being unaware that functionality is available or unable to activate such functionality. 2. Scripted changes to the page might not be picked up by the screen reader. Screen readers often work with a sort of snapshot of the structure and content of the web document (a virtual buffer). Sometimes this snapshot is not updated when the real document is altered by script. 3. The user might not be alerted to changes to the page or snapshot. 4. The user might be constantly interrupted by irrelevant changes. For further reading see: http://delicious.com/benjaminhawkeslewis/accessibility+ajax And for accessibility best practices generally see: http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/wcag.php http://www.rnib.org.uk/xpedio/groups/public/documents/code/public_wacsitemap.hcsp Hope that helps. -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs
On Mon, 9 Feb 2009, Ben Lau wrote: Are there any (seriously) bad implications of having empty DIVs around your HTML document? I try to avoid using them personally, but there are cases where the visual design has forced me to add empty divs (or spans) just to achieve the look. I've never used an empty div except with 'clear:both' to force the parent element to enclose floated elements. Do you have other uses for it? Apart from adding extra weight and cluttering the document, I understand screen readers do not pick up divs and spans? Would I be better off to insert these meaningless decorative tags using javascript and modifying the DOM, while non-javascript users would see a more cut down version of the design? Do screen readers pick up javascript and events? What do you want to do that cannot be done without JS? -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster http://woodbine-gerrard.com = Do not reply to the From: address; use Reply-To: Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs
On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Ben Lau bensan...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, Are there any (seriously) bad implications of having empty DIVs around your HTML document? No. p.s. ignore all the long-winded answers. -- -- Christian Montoya mappdev.com :: christianmontoya.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] seeking JavaScript Bible comments
I wouldn't worry about document.write examples too much. You just need to keep in mind that the book is designed to teach the language from scratch, and quite possibly the reader hasn't scripted before. Starting from point zero, document.write is a good way to get started learning and making things happen fast. I'll guess that the Bible-series programming books aren't necessarily considering standardistas. Joseph R. B. Taylor /Designer / Developer/ -- Sites by Joe, LLC /Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/ Phone: (609) 335-3076 Fax: (866) 301-8045 Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com MichaelMD wrote: Also, the first examples of JavaScript tend to use document.write when illustrating the simplest parts of the language. Usage of document.write should be banned from day one. Encourage the readers to test simple A decade ago (Netscape 4 era) I used document.write in some javascript widgets for people display some content from another site by using a script tag. They still work in current browsers but javascript has come a long way since then! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs
On Feb 8, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Christian Montoya wrote: On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Ben Lau bensan...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, Are there any (seriously) bad implications of having empty DIVs around your HTML document? No. p.s. ignore all the long-winded answers. Agreed. Andrew http://www.andrewmaben.net and...@andrewmaben.com In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs
Agreed. An empty div is nothing. Same thing with an empty spans etc... Joseph R. B. Taylor /Designer / Developer/ -- Sites by Joe, LLC /Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/ Phone: (609) 335-3076 Fax: (866) 301-8045 Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com Christian Montoya wrote: On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Ben Lau bensan...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, Are there any (seriously) bad implications of having empty DIVs around your HTML document? No. p.s. ignore all the long-winded answers. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs
My advice below. Cheers, Gerard On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 9:33 AM, Ben Lau bensan...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, Are there any (seriously) bad implications of having empty DIVs around your HTML document? I try to avoid using them personally, but there are cases where the visual design has forced me to add empty divs (or spans) just to achieve the look. Apart from adding extra weight and cluttering the document, I understand screen readers do not pick up divs and spans? I'm not expert about screen readers, but I did run a site I upgraded through JAWS with some interesting results. The site had alot of pnbsp;/p due to the CMS they were using and JAWS would translate this to/speak out blank which wasn't ideal. Am not sure if it would do the same for p/p or div/div or div /. Would I be better off to insert these meaningless decorative tags using javascript and modifying the DOM, while non-javascript users would see a more cut down version of the design? Do screen readers pick up javascript and events? Javascript solution could work, but I would run your page through a screen reader first and see if you're happy with the result. You can download demo of JAWS from http://www.freedomscientific.com/products/fs/jaws-product-page.asp You'll probably identify other areas of content that could be improved for screen readers. He's a good article about the topic http://www.webaim.org/techniques/screenreader/ Cheers, ben *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs
If you use a tool such as tidy html in xhtml mode it will delete your empty tags... probably a setting to turn that feature off, but something to think about... Cheers, Anthony. Gerard Hynes (Gmail) wrote: My advice below. Cheers, Gerard On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 9:33 AM, Ben Lau bensan...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, Are there any (seriously) bad implications of having empty DIVs around your HTML document? I try to avoid using them personally, but there are cases where the visual design has forced me to add empty divs (or spans) just to achieve the look. Apart from adding extra weight and cluttering the document, I understand screen readers do not pick up divs and spans? I'm not expert about screen readers, but I did run a site I upgraded through JAWS with some interesting results. The site had alot of pnbsp;/p due to the CMS they were using and JAWS would translate this to/speak out "blank" which wasn't ideal. Am not sure if it would do the same for p/p or div/div or div /. Would I be better off to insert these meaningless decorative tags using _javascript_ and modifying the DOM, while non-_javascript_ users would see a more cut down version of the design? Do screen readers pick up _javascript_ and events? _javascript_ solution could work, but I would run your page through a screen reader first and see if you're happy with the result. You can download demo of JAWS from http://www.freedomscientific.com/products/fs/jaws-product-page.asp You'll probably identify other areas of content that could be improved for screen readers. He's a good article about the topic http://www.webaim.org/techniques/screenreader/ Cheers, ben *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org***
Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs
Haha, thanks. But I also do appreciate the long answers though; thanks Benjamin. I've read on numerous blogs/tutorials/comments that having blank div is poor practice, and that it's also poor semantic markup because it's meaningless. I mention the javascript alternative because i'll be using these empty divs purely for decorative purposes, so if non-javascript can't see the yellow block that goes em to the left of my website, I'm not that concerned. I'm just worried about screen readers picking up that empty div. So then you guys have no problem in using it for clearing as opposed to overflow:hidden/auto? On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Anthony Ziebell anth...@fatpublisher.com.au wrote: If you use a tool such as tidy html in xhtml mode it will delete your empty tags... probably a setting to turn that feature off, but something to think about... Cheers, Anthony. Gerard Hynes (Gmail) wrote: My advice below. Cheers, Gerard On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 9:33 AM, Ben Lau bensan...@gmail.com bensan...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, Are there any (seriously) bad implications of having empty DIVs around your HTML document? I try to avoid using them personally, but there are cases where the visual design has forced me to add empty divs (or spans) just to achieve the look. Apart from adding extra weight and cluttering the document, I understand screen readers do not pick up divs and spans? I'm not expert about screen readers, but I did run a site I upgraded through JAWS with some interesting results. The site had alot of pnbsp;/p due to the CMS they were using and JAWS would translate this to/speak out blank which wasn't ideal. Am not sure if it would do the same for p/p or div/div or div /. Would I be better off to insert these meaningless decorative tags using javascript and modifying the DOM, while non-javascript users would see a more cut down version of the design? Do screen readers pick up javascript and events? Javascript solution could work, but I would run your page through a screen reader first and see if you're happy with the result. You can download demo of JAWS fromhttp://www.freedomscientific.com/products/fs/jaws-product-page.asp You'll probably identify other areas of content that could be improved for screen readers. He's a good article about the topichttp://www.webaim.org/techniques/screenreader/ Cheers, ben *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs
I'm all for semantic mark up and removing redunant tags, but the reality is supporting older browsers and browser quirks complicate things. So, yes definitely prefer CSS overflow solution, to adding a redundant/meaningless tag. In the perfect world people would use the latest standards compliant browsers and keep them regularly updated. Spread the word! On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Ben Lau bensan...@gmail.com wrote: Haha, thanks. But I also do appreciate the long answers though; thanks Benjamin. I've read on numerous blogs/tutorials/comments that having blank div is poor practice, and that it's also poor semantic markup because it's meaningless. I mention the javascript alternative because i'll be using these empty divs purely for decorative purposes, so if non-javascript can't see the yellow block that goes em to the left of my website, I'm not that concerned. I'm just worried about screen readers picking up that empty div. So then you guys have no problem in using it for clearing as opposed to overflow:hidden/auto? On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Anthony Ziebell anth...@fatpublisher.com.au wrote: If you use a tool such as tidy html in xhtml mode it will delete your empty tags... probably a setting to turn that feature off, but something to think about... Cheers, Anthony. Gerard Hynes (Gmail) wrote: My advice below. Cheers, Gerard On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 9:33 AM, Ben Lau bensan...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, Are there any (seriously) bad implications of having empty DIVs around your HTML document? I try to avoid using them personally, but there are cases where the visual design has forced me to add empty divs (or spans) just to achieve the look. Apart from adding extra weight and cluttering the document, I understand screen readers do not pick up divs and spans? I'm not expert about screen readers, but I did run a site I upgraded through JAWS with some interesting results. The site had alot of pnbsp;/p due to the CMS they were using and JAWS would translate this to/speak out blank which wasn't ideal. Am not sure if it would do the same for p/p or div/div or div /. Would I be better off to insert these meaningless decorative tags using javascript and modifying the DOM, while non-javascript users would see a more cut down version of the design? Do screen readers pick up javascript and events? Javascript solution could work, but I would run your page through a screen reader first and see if you're happy with the result. You can download demo of JAWS from http://www.freedomscientific.com/products/fs/jaws-product-page.asp You'll probably identify other areas of content that could be improved for screen readers. He's a good article about the topic http://www.webaim.org/techniques/screenreader/ Cheers, ben *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs
On Mon, 9 Feb 2009, Gerard Hynes (Gmail) wrote: I'm all for semantic mark up and removing redunant tags, but the reality is supporting older browsers and browser quirks complicate things. So, yes definitely prefer CSS overflow solution, to adding a redundant/meaningless tag. How can CSS overflow replace div style=clear:both;/div? In the perfect world people would use the latest standards compliant browsers and keep them regularly updated. Spread the word! On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Ben Lau bensan...@gmail.com wrote: Haha, thanks. But I also do appreciate the long answers though; thanks Benjamin. I've read on numerous blogs/tutorials/comments that having blank div is poor practice, and that it's also poor semantic markup because it's meaningless. I mention the javascript alternative because i'll be using these empty divs purely for decorative purposes, so if non-javascript can't see the yellow block that goes em to the left of my website, I'm not that concerned. I'm just worried about screen readers picking up that empty div. So then you guys have no problem in using it for clearing as opposed to overflow:hidden/auto? On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Anthony Ziebell anth...@fatpublisher.com.au wrote: If you use a tool such as tidy html in xhtml mode it will delete your empty tags... probably a setting to turn that feature off, but something to think about... Cheers, Anthony. Gerard Hynes (Gmail) wrote: My advice below. Cheers, Gerard On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 9:33 AM, Ben Lau bensan...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, Are there any (seriously) bad implications of having empty DIVs around your HTML document? I try to avoid using them personally, but there are cases where the visual design has forced me to add empty divs (or spans) just to achieve the look. Apart from adding extra weight and cluttering the document, I understand screen readers do not pick up divs and spans? I'm not expert about screen readers, but I did run a site I upgraded through JAWS with some interesting results. The site had alot of pnbsp;/p due to the CMS they were using and JAWS would translate this to/speak out blank which wasn't ideal. Am not sure if it would do the same for p/p or div/div or div /. Would I be better off to insert these meaningless decorative tags using javascript and modifying the DOM, while non-javascript users would see a more cut down version of the design? Do screen readers pick up javascript and events? Javascript solution could work, but I would run your page through a screen reader first and see if you're happy with the result. You can download demo of JAWS from http://www.freedomscientific.com/products/fs/jaws-product-page.asp You'll probably identify other areas of content that could be improved for screen readers. He's a good article about the topic http://www.webaim.org/techniques/screenreader/ -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster http://woodbine-gerrard.com = Do not reply to the From: address; use Reply-To: Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
