Re: [WSG] Re: More than one H1?
Thanks for all your responsesI didn't expect this topic to be so clouded. For me and this particular site I'm working on, the problem still remainswhile Jason's article is well written, it doesn't use any *governing body (eg. W3C/Google) references* as basis for it's conclusions...it is merely an opinion. An Information Architecture opinion. Sure, I agree with alot of the article and completely understand the opinion but it is still.an opinion. Semantic structure is very much about opinion and interpretation. My personal interpretation of this common problem was (and still is) that there is no reason why multiple H1s can't be used on one page *AND no reason* (semantic/IA/SEO/common sense) why an H1 can't wrap the logo. My interpretation is that it is logical and important. Having said that, I was ready to heed the advice of many on this thread and remove the H1 around the logo as it seemed to be the general consensusbut there seems to be a number of people who disagree and I'm still yet to read anything from Google or W3C that says it is, indeed, bad practice. Google, themselves (as the youTube video explains) says it is *not bad *practice. H1 denotes a heading. This I acknowledge. From a semantic point of view, maybe the logo is not a heading at all.or maybe it is the premier heading. Depends on whether you view a web page as a plain text document or an interactive piece of media. In an interactive page, can a heading not be *something other than text? A logo perhaps? * To answer a few pointed questions: Maybe they should listen to the SEO expert they've already spoken to... - from Darren Lovelock. I generally make a point of not believing everything I read or hear, so excuse me for having an opinion different to that of a so-called SEO expert and following up my opinion. It seems, outside of Google index engineers, no-one really knows exactly what effect page elements and content have on search results...SEO experts seem to be professionals who have come up with a best guess system. In reference to: Did they see it on some 'SEO's website and think 'they must know what they are doing so I'll copy them'? LOL Yes Darren, I have seen it on many sites, many large sites that spend tens of thousands of $$$ every year on SEO. Are you suggesting that your knowledge of web design/IA/SEO come purely from W3C guidelines and Google spec sheets? Are you suggesting you are not influenced by the design/IA/semantic structure/SEO methods of massive online companies? Wow, that is impressivethe purity of your knowledge must be profound. It must be amazing to talk with you one-on-one. Some examples for you to mull over: Top tier (pretty big) Australian sites: - www.theage.com.au - www.smh.com.au - www.mycareer.com.au - www.domain.com.au - www.drive.com.au International sites: - http://www.bbc.co.uk/ I love this line: ...using the the method I and many other good web designers have adopted: Anyways, enough Darren bashing Re: Adam Martin (writing after having a few afternoon bevvies in Thailand): In saying this I don't believe in focussing on SEO - no point in getting the search engines find you if you only lose the customer when they come to your site. I always focus on the customer and the information they want to find. Customer Optimisation will always pay off much more than SEO can ever dream of - 1 qualified customers is much better than 100 non qualified. I love the way this is written - definitely puts things in perspective Thankyou all for your responses. Many well spoken and informative people on this list, which I appreciate. * Christian Fagan * Fagan Design * fagandesign.com.au * p: (+613) 9314-1841 Oliver Boermans wrote: 2009/10/16 Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com: Ollie you are threading a dangerous ground there. Explained here why you are wrong: http://www.flexewebs.com/semantix/semantic-uses-of-h1-h2-h6-html-tags/ Good link for this thread Jason. Although I don’t understand why the company name would be inappropriate semantically to use as the h1 on the home page. The home page represents the company. If I Google for a company with it’s name as a keyword I would expect to find their home page. Using it on every page of the site is a different matter. For this to work the 'logo' would be text which would be styled with CSS to look like the logo in a browser. As an alternative I expect the alt text of an image would likely suffice (not so sure on this one). To put on my hat with horns to present a possible issue with my own suggestion; I would point out that using a different structure between pages of a site can be confusing for a screenreader user; But then, home pages often are a different structure to topic-specific sub pages anyway so I don’t expect anyone would get upset about it. I’ve been doing this for a few years now so if I’m wrong I’m keen to be corrected! … The defence
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[WSG] recovering file replace
Hi please if anyone can help me i have replaced my current file when moving it into the folder with an older one, and i don't know how to recover it back, i tried several softwares but none of them are helping me out, i'm so streesed i've been working on this flash files for day and now it's replaced with a very old old vr. please did anyone had the same thing and got their file recoved please help me i'm so desperate for a solution ASAP. Thanks all in advance _ Need a place to rent, buy or share? Let us find your next place for you! http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/157631292/direct/01/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] recovering file replace
Hi Nour, If the file you have lost is on a live website, you could always use the search engine cache to recover the older version. Kevin From: Nour Alsafar Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 1:06 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] recovering file replace Hi please if anyone can help me i have replaced my current file when moving it into the folder with an older one, and i don't know how to recover it back, i tried several softwares but none of them are helping me out, i'm so streesed i've been working on this flash files for day and now it's replaced with a very old old vr. please did anyone had the same thing and got their file recoved please help me i'm so desperate for a solution ASAP. Thanks all in advance Let us find your next place for you! Need a place to rent, buy or share? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Re: More than one H1?
Once again I have to come back to this great thread - one of the best discussions in the long time on this mailing list: - BBC uses H1 on the logo on the home page, but around the article title on article specific page (e.g. view-source:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8312126.stm) - Also worthy of note is that behind the logo on homepage they use the full phrase of 'British Broadcasting Corporation' following the CSS swapping technique that was outlined - Everything we post here is an opinion of course - Following my recommendation(s) I think will achieve the best of all worlds for a given site - I agree that '1 qualified customer is better than 100 unqualified ones' - Nowadays we really need to take into account mobile device interoperability and usability and should also consider screen reader users wherever relevant I am going to update my post to reflect some of the exceptions to the rule we have discussed here, so that they are not lost in the long term. Thanks people and have a nice day, Jason On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Christian Fagan c...@fagandesign.com.auwrote: Thanks for all your responsesI didn't expect this topic to be so clouded. For me and this particular site I'm working on, the problem still remainswhile Jason's article is well written, it doesn't use any *governing body (eg. W3C/Google) references* as basis for it's conclusions...it is merely an opinion. An Information Architecture opinion. Sure, I agree with alot of the article and completely understand the opinion but it is still.an opinion. Semantic structure is very much about opinion and interpretation. My personal interpretation of this common problem was (and still is) that there is no reason why multiple H1s can't be used on one page *AND no reason*(semantic/IA/SEO/common sense) why an H1 can't wrap the logo. My interpretation is that it is logical and important. Having said that, I was ready to heed the advice of many on this thread and remove the H1 around the logo as it seemed to be the general consensusbut there seems to be a number of people who disagree and I'm still yet to read anything from Google or W3C that says it is, indeed, bad practice. Google, themselves (as the youTube video explains) says it is *not bad *practice. H1 denotes a heading. This I acknowledge. From a semantic point of view, maybe the logo is not a heading at all.or maybe it is the premier heading. Depends on whether you view a web page as a plain text document or an interactive piece of media. In an interactive page, can a heading not be *something other than text? A logo perhaps? * To answer a few pointed questions: Maybe they should listen to the SEO expert they've already spoken to... - from Darren Lovelock. I generally make a point of not believing everything I read or hear, so excuse me for having an opinion different to that of a so-called SEO expert and following up my opinion. It seems, outside of Google index engineers, no-one really knows exactly what effect page elements and content have on search results...SEO experts seem to be professionals who have come up with a best guess system. In reference to: Did they see it on some 'SEO's website and think 'they must know what they are doing so I'll copy them'? LOL Yes Darren, I have seen it on many sites, many large sites that spend tens of thousands of $$$ every year on SEO. Are you suggesting that your knowledge of web design/IA/SEO come purely from W3C guidelines and Google spec sheets? Are you suggesting you are not influenced by the design/IA/semantic structure/SEO methods of massive online companies? Wow, that is impressivethe purity of your knowledge must be profound. It must be amazing to talk with you one-on-one. Some examples for you to mull over: Top tier (pretty big) Australian sites: - www.theage.com.au - www.smh.com.au - www.mycareer.com.au - www.domain.com.au - www.drive.com.au International sites: - http://www.bbc.co.uk/ I love this line: ...using the the method I and many other good web designers have adopted: Anyways, enough Darren bashing Re: Adam Martin (writing after having a few afternoon bevvies in Thailand): In saying this I don't believe in focussing on SEO - no point in getting the search engines find you if you only lose the customer when they come to your site. I always focus on the customer and the information they want to find. Customer Optimisation will always pay off much more than SEO can ever dream of - 1 qualified customers is much better than 100 non qualified. I love the way this is written - definitely puts things in perspective Thankyou all for your responses. Many well spoken and informative people on this list, which I appreciate. - Christian Fagan - Fagan Design - fagandesign.com.au - p: (+613) 9314-1841 Oliver Boermans wrote: 2009/10/16 Jason Grant
Re: [WSG] Re: More than one H1?
Oh yes, and let's not forget that Google isn't the only search engine on the planet too. :-) On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 1:40 PM, Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com wrote: Once again I have to come back to this great thread - one of the best discussions in the long time on this mailing list: - BBC uses H1 on the logo on the home page, but around the article title on article specific page (e.g. view-source:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8312126.stm) - Also worthy of note is that behind the logo on homepage they use the full phrase of 'British Broadcasting Corporation' following the CSS swapping technique that was outlined - Everything we post here is an opinion of course - Following my recommendation(s) I think will achieve the best of all worlds for a given site - I agree that '1 qualified customer is better than 100 unqualified ones' - Nowadays we really need to take into account mobile device interoperability and usability and should also consider screen reader users wherever relevant I am going to update my post to reflect some of the exceptions to the rule we have discussed here, so that they are not lost in the long term. Thanks people and have a nice day, Jason On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Christian Fagan c...@fagandesign.com.auwrote: Thanks for all your responsesI didn't expect this topic to be so clouded. For me and this particular site I'm working on, the problem still remainswhile Jason's article is well written, it doesn't use any *governing body (eg. W3C/Google) references* as basis for it's conclusions...it is merely an opinion. An Information Architecture opinion. Sure, I agree with alot of the article and completely understand the opinion but it is still.an opinion. Semantic structure is very much about opinion and interpretation. My personal interpretation of this common problem was (and still is) that there is no reason why multiple H1s can't be used on one page *AND no reason*(semantic/IA/SEO/common sense) why an H1 can't wrap the logo. My interpretation is that it is logical and important. Having said that, I was ready to heed the advice of many on this thread and remove the H1 around the logo as it seemed to be the general consensusbut there seems to be a number of people who disagree and I'm still yet to read anything from Google or W3C that says it is, indeed, bad practice. Google, themselves (as the youTube video explains) says it is *not bad *practice. H1 denotes a heading. This I acknowledge. From a semantic point of view, maybe the logo is not a heading at all.or maybe it is the premier heading. Depends on whether you view a web page as a plain text document or an interactive piece of media. In an interactive page, can a heading not be *something other than text? A logo perhaps? * To answer a few pointed questions: Maybe they should listen to the SEO expert they've already spoken to... - from Darren Lovelock. I generally make a point of not believing everything I read or hear, so excuse me for having an opinion different to that of a so-called SEO expert and following up my opinion. It seems, outside of Google index engineers, no-one really knows exactly what effect page elements and content have on search results...SEO experts seem to be professionals who have come up with a best guess system. In reference to: Did they see it on some 'SEO's website and think 'they must know what they are doing so I'll copy them'? LOL Yes Darren, I have seen it on many sites, many large sites that spend tens of thousands of $$$ every year on SEO. Are you suggesting that your knowledge of web design/IA/SEO come purely from W3C guidelines and Google spec sheets? Are you suggesting you are not influenced by the design/IA/semantic structure/SEO methods of massive online companies? Wow, that is impressivethe purity of your knowledge must be profound. It must be amazing to talk with you one-on-one. Some examples for you to mull over: Top tier (pretty big) Australian sites: - www.theage.com.au - www.smh.com.au - www.mycareer.com.au - www.domain.com.au - www.drive.com.au International sites: - http://www.bbc.co.uk/ I love this line: ...using the the method I and many other good web designers have adopted: Anyways, enough Darren bashing Re: Adam Martin (writing after having a few afternoon bevvies in Thailand): In saying this I don't believe in focussing on SEO - no point in getting the search engines find you if you only lose the customer when they come to your site. I always focus on the customer and the information they want to find. Customer Optimisation will always pay off much more than SEO can ever dream of - 1 qualified customers is much better than 100 non qualified. I love the way this is written - definitely puts things in perspective Thankyou all for your responses. Many well spoken and informative people
RE: [WSG] Re: More than one H1?
Enough Darren bashing LOL My apologies for attacking so head-on but it looked to me that your only intention was to attempt to boost your website rankings and that is something that Google definitely advises against - build websites for your visitors and not the search engines. You mind telling me which of the websites you referenced include more than one H1? That's what this discussion is about right? Also most of them had a lot of html errors so not exactly good examples of great web design. Apart from the BBC website of course - great website ;) You said that you would include an H1 wrapped around the logo AND and an additional H1 didn't you? You wanted to know its effect on SEO? Multiple H1's dilute the relevance of the page and if stuffed with keywords will only hinder a websites rankings rather than help them. That is why the SEO you spoke to would recommend to use just one H1. http://www.searchenginejournal.com/seo-checklist-using-page-headings-correct ly/7723/ The reason why designers have had a need to place an H1 around the logo is because the H1 should be first in a documents heading structure, it was to comply with WCAG guidelines. Due to multiple column layouts a H2 could easily come before the H1. Read more here - http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200901/headings_heading_hierarchy_and_ document_outlines/ Your reason however was because you believe the logo to be of equal importance as the H1 lower down the page (for rankings?), not to meet accessibility guidelines. My opinion is a logo is not a heading, it is a logo. I agree however there should be a tag to give the logo more precedence on the page but a heading is not the correct tag. A logo is a graphical element ( http://www.answers.com/topic/ideogram ideogram, http://www.answers.com/topic/symbol symbol, http://www.answers.com/topic/emblem emblem, http://www.answers.com/topic/icon icon, http://www.answers.com/topic/sign sign) that, together with its logotype (a uniquely set and arranged http://www.answers.com/topic/typeface typeface) form a http://www.answers.com/topic/trademark trademark or commercial http://www.answers.com/topic/brand brand. Typically, a logo's design is for immediate recognition. http://www.answers.com/logo#cite_note-wheeler_dbi_pg4-0 [1] The logo is one aspect of a company's commercial http://www.answers.com/topic/brand brand, or economic or academic entity, and its shapes, colors, fonts, and images usually are different from others in a similar market. Logos are also used to identify organizations and other non-commercial entities. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logo By using microformats or the RDFA doctype you can identify the logo in a vcard along with your company details. Darren Lovelock Munky Online Web Design http://www.munkyonline.co.uk/ http://www.munkyonline.co.uk T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893 _ From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Christian Fagan Sent: 17 October 2009 12:18 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Re: More than one H1? Thanks for all your responsesI didn't expect this topic to be so clouded. For me and this particular site I'm working on, the problem still remainswhile Jason's article is well written, it doesn't use any governing body (eg. W3C/Google) references as basis for it's conclusions...it is merely an opinion. An Information Architecture opinion. Sure, I agree with alot of the article and completely understand the opinion but it is still.an opinion. Semantic structure is very much about opinion and interpretation. My personal interpretation of this common problem was (and still is) that there is no reason why multiple H1s can't be used on one page AND no reason (semantic/IA/SEO/common sense) why an H1 can't wrap the logo. My interpretation is that it is logical and important. Having said that, I was ready to heed the advice of many on this thread and remove the H1 around the logo as it seemed to be the general consensusbut there seems to be a number of people who disagree and I'm still yet to read anything from Google or W3C that says it is, indeed, bad practice. Google, themselves (as the youTube video explains) says it is not bad practice. H1 denotes a heading. This I acknowledge. From a semantic point of view, maybe the logo is not a heading at all.or maybe it is the premier heading. Depends on whether you view a web page as a plain text document or an interactive piece of media. In an interactive page, can a heading not be something other than text? A logo perhaps? To answer a few pointed questions: Maybe they should listen to the SEO expert they've already spoken to... - from Darren Lovelock. I generally make a point of not believing everything I read or hear, so excuse me for having an opinion different to that of a so-called SEO expert and following up my opinion. It seems, outside of Google index engineers, no-one really knows exactly what effect page elements
Re: [WSG] Re: More than one H1?
Well done Darren on debunking this one.I have also changed my blog post to reflect the fact that you might want to use H1 on the homepage around the logo, but that's the only place where I can possibly think it would make sense. Thanks, Jason On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 2:43 PM, Darren Lovelock i...@munkyonline.co.ukwrote: Enough Darren bashing LOL My apologies for attacking so head-on but it looked to me that your only intention was to attempt to boost your website rankings and that is something that Google definitely advises against - build websites for your visitors and not the search engines. You mind telling me which of the websites you referenced include more than one H1? That's what this discussion is about right? Also most of them had a lot of html errors so not exactly good examples of great web design. Apart from the BBC website of course - great website ;) You said that you would include an H1 wrapped around the logo AND and an additional H1 didn't you? You wanted to know its effect on SEO? Multiple H1's dilute the relevance of the page and if stuffed with keywords will only hinder a websites rankings rather than help them. That is why the SEO you spoke to would recommend to use just *one* H1. http://www.searchenginejournal.com/seo-checklist-using-page-headings-correctly/7723/ The reason why designers have had a need to place an H1 around the logo is because the H1 should be first in a documents heading structure, it was to comply with WCAG guidelines. Due to multiple column layouts a H2 could easily come before the H1. Read more here - http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200901/headings_heading_hierarchy_and_document_outlines/ Your reason however was because you believe the logo to be of equal importance as the H1 lower down the page (for rankings?), not to meet accessibility guidelines. My opinion is a logo is not a heading, it is a logo. I agree however there should be a tag to give the logo more precedence on the page but a heading is not the correct tag. A *logo* is a graphical element (ideogramhttp://www.answers.com/topic/ideogram, symbol http://www.answers.com/topic/symbol, emblemhttp://www.answers.com/topic/emblem, icon http://www.answers.com/topic/icon, signhttp://www.answers.com/topic/sign) that, together with its *logotype* (a uniquely set and arranged typefacehttp://www.answers.com/topic/typeface) form a trademark http://www.answers.com/topic/trademark or commercial brand http://www.answers.com/topic/brand. Typically, a logo's design is for immediate recognition.[1]http://www.answers.com/logo#cite_note-wheeler_dbi_pg4-0The logo is one aspect of a company's commercial brand http://www.answers.com/topic/brand, or economic or academic entity, and its shapes, colors, fonts, and images usually are different from others in a similar market. Logos are also used to identify organizations and other non-commercial entities. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logo By using microformats or the RDFA doctype you can identify the logo in a vcard along with your company details. Darren Lovelock Munky Online Web Design http://www.munkyonline.co.uk T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893 -- *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On Behalf Of *Christian Fagan *Sent:* 17 October 2009 12:18 *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Re: More than one H1? Thanks for all your responsesI didn't expect this topic to be so clouded. For me and this particular site I'm working on, the problem still remainswhile Jason's article is well written, it doesn't use any *governing body (eg. W3C/Google) references* as basis for it's conclusions...it is merely an opinion. An Information Architecture opinion. Sure, I agree with alot of the article and completely understand the opinion but it is still.an opinion. Semantic structure is very much about opinion and interpretation. My personal interpretation of this common problem was (and still is) that there is no reason why multiple H1s can't be used on one page *AND no reason*(semantic/IA/SEO/common sense) why an H1 can't wrap the logo. My interpretation is that it is logical and important. Having said that, I was ready to heed the advice of many on this thread and remove the H1 around the logo as it seemed to be the general consensusbut there seems to be a number of people who disagree and I'm still yet to read anything from Google or W3C that says it is, indeed, bad practice. Google, themselves (as the youTube video explains) says it is *not bad *practice. H1 denotes a heading. This I acknowledge. From a semantic point of view, maybe the logo is not a heading at all.or maybe it is the premier heading. Depends on whether you view a web page as a plain text document or an interactive piece of media. In an interactive page, can a heading not be *something other than text? A logo perhaps? * To
[WSG] Online shop package recommendations please.
Hi, I'm in the process of quoting a few ecommerce packages/websites and currently looking at opencart (for a free and non supported solution) and JShop for a more pro supported version. Does anyone have any packages that they recommend? http://www.opencart.com/ http://www.jshop.co.uk/index I'm not requiring bar codes or EPOS integration so need to keep it simple. thanks. Hedley Phillips Digital Essence T: 01306 627 128 M: 07940 508 417 E: hed...@digitalessence.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Online shop package recommendations please.
Magento is an option also possibly Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -Original Message- From: hed...@digitalessence.net hed...@digitalessence.net Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 21:34:16 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Online shop package recommendations please. Hi, I'm in the process of quoting a few ecommerce packages/websites and currently looking at opencart (for a free and non supported solution) and JShop for a more pro supported version. Does anyone have any packages that they recommend? http://www.opencart.com/ http://www.jshop.co.uk/index I'm not requiring bar codes or EPOS integration so need to keep it simple. thanks. Hedley Phillips Digital Essence T: 01306 627 128 M: 07940 508 417 E: hed...@digitalessence.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Online shop package recommendations please.
Magento is great but has a high learning curve and not a lot of template options, free or commercial, at this point. If you need a very full featured cart, I'd use it anyway. If you need a basic cart use Zencart. If you only have a couple of items I'd use Paypal buttons. Frederick On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 2:47 PM, ja...@flexewebs.com wrote: Magento is an option also possibly Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -- *From: * hed...@digitalessence.net hed...@digitalessence.net *Date: *Sat, 17 Oct 2009 21:34:16 +0100 *To: *wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject: *[WSG] Online shop package recommendations please. Hi, I'm in the process of quoting a few ecommerce packages/websites and currently looking at opencart (for a free and non supported solution) and JShop for a more pro supported version. Does anyone have any packages that they recommend? http://www.opencart.com/ http://www.jshop.co.uk/index I'm not requiring bar codes or EPOS integration so need to keep it simple. thanks. Hedley Phillips Digital Essence T: 01306 627 128 M: 07940 508 417 E: hed...@digitalessence.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Online shop package recommendations please.
Magento isn't easy but it is probably most flexible from UI perspective compared to zencart (table based HTML) and jshop (also table based HTML), so theoretically it is easier to knock up templates for Magento than other two. I used both zencart and jshop and they are a pain to work with visually speaking. Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -Original Message- From: Frederick Matzen frederic...@gmail.com Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 15:01:05 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Online shop package recommendations please. Magento is great but has a high learning curve and not a lot of template options, free or commercial, at this point. If you need a very full featured cart, I'd use it anyway. If you need a basic cart use Zencart. If you only have a couple of items I'd use Paypal buttons. Frederick On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 2:47 PM, ja...@flexewebs.com wrote: Magento is an option also possibly Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -- *From: * hed...@digitalessence.net hed...@digitalessence.net *Date: *Sat, 17 Oct 2009 21:34:16 +0100 *To: *wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject: *[WSG] Online shop package recommendations please. Hi, I'm in the process of quoting a few ecommerce packages/websites and currently looking at opencart (for a free and non supported solution) and JShop for a more pro supported version. Does anyone have any packages that they recommend? http://www.opencart.com/ http://www.jshop.co.uk/index I'm not requiring bar codes or EPOS integration so need to keep it simple. thanks. Hedley Phillips Digital Essence T: 01306 627 128 M: 07940 508 417 E: hed...@digitalessence.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Online shop package recommendations please.
Drupal with the ubercart module - http://www.ubercart.org/ demo here - http://livetest.ubercart.org/uc1/ List of features - http://www.ubercart.org/what_is_ubercart Supported payment systems - http://www.ubercart.org/payment Add the views module and ubercart views module for 'popular product' blocks etc. Views - http://drupal.org/project/views Ubercart Views - http://drupal.org/project/uc_views Darren Lovelock Munky Online Web Design http://www.munkyonline.co.uk/ http://www.munkyonline.co.uk T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893 _ From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of ja...@flexewebs.com Sent: 17 October 2009 21:47 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Online shop package recommendations please. Magento is an option also possibly Sent from my BlackBerryR wireless device _ From: hed...@digitalessence.net hed...@digitalessence.net Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 21:34:16 +0100 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Online shop package recommendations please. Hi, I'm in the process of quoting a few ecommerce packages/websites and currently looking at opencart (for a free and non supported solution) and JShop for a more pro supported version. Does anyone have any packages that they recommend? http://www.opencart.com/ http://www.jshop.co.uk/index I'm not requiring bar codes or EPOS integration so need to keep it simple. thanks. Hedley Phillips Digital Essence T: 01306 627 128 M: 07940 508 417 E: hed...@digitalessence.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Online shop package recommendations please.
Try cscart over at cscart.com. It's not free but it's easy to work with and easy to skin. _ From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Darren Lovelock Sent: 17 October 2009 22:27 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Online shop package recommendations please. Drupal with the ubercart module - http://www.ubercart.org/ demo here - http://livetest.ubercart.org/uc1/ List of features - http://www.ubercart.org/what_is_ubercart Supported payment systems - http://www.ubercart.org/payment Add the views module and ubercart views module for 'popular product' blocks etc. Views - http://drupal.org/project/views Ubercart Views - http://drupal.org/project/uc_views Darren Lovelock Munky Online Web Design http://www.munkyonline.co.uk/ http://www.munkyonline.co.uk T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893 _ From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of ja...@flexewebs.com Sent: 17 October 2009 21:47 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Online shop package recommendations please. Magento is an option also possibly Sent from my BlackBerryR wireless device _ From: hed...@digitalessence.net hed...@digitalessence.net Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 21:34:16 +0100 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Online shop package recommendations please. Hi, I'm in the process of quoting a few ecommerce packages/websites and currently looking at opencart (for a free and non supported solution) and JShop for a more pro supported version. Does anyone have any packages that they recommend? http://www.opencart.com/ http://www.jshop.co.uk/index I'm not requiring bar codes or EPOS integration so need to keep it simple. thanks. Hedley Phillips Digital Essence T: 01306 627 128 M: 07940 508 417 E: hed...@digitalessence.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Re: More than one H1?
Very interesting discussion on a point that often causes controversy. Here is my 2c for what its worth: The use of a single H1 per _page_ on a site comes from a mixture of IA, semantics, Accessibility and Usability with a nod to the history of publishing. I consider the notion of semantics as a matter of opinion as something of a strange opinion itself. Semantics refers to logic or in the case of a web site logical structure or definition which if you start from a logical premise you can then test each decision you make and therefore it would not be a matter for opinion. That said the logical premise in this case is that a web page is, well, a page - it stands alone within a single context as it can be removed from the web site (by printing, downloading or copying). Therefore semantically and otherwise the page will have an overarching theme or topic which, from the browsers (machine) point of view, should be incapsulated in the title of the page but for the user / reader it logically appears in the first heading (nominally H1). It follows then that this is the heading for the *page*. Its the most important heading and it states what the whole page is about, there for there can really be only one H1. You can relate this to publishing with the notion of chapters in a book or articles in a magazine or academic journal, or stories in a newspaper. Each is an individual entity with its own context and has an individual theme / topic encapsulated in a heading/title. Of course one can confuse the literal meaning of a page (e.g physical page of a newspaper - which has multiple articles with multiple headings or magazine which has one article on many physical pages) into this argument but my argument is that semantically a page is contextually singular covering an overarching theme or concept that should be incapsulated in its title and first, and therefore only, major heading. So just to cove the argument I made against myself: h1My Journal/h1 h2My First Article/h2 h2My Second Article/h2 h2My Third Article/h2 h2My Fourth Article/h2 And 'My First Article' might link to another *page* - thus: h1My First Article/h1 h2Introduction/h2 pblah blah blah/p Should you wrap an image with a H1 tag? Why would you? That's what we've got CSS for - swap the content of the H1 out for the image the right way and then all bases are covered. That's my 2c which I hope makes sense. -- Regards, Peter Stagg Faculty Webmaster Arts Information Technology University AUC Representative http://www.auc.edu.au/ http://www.auc.edu.au/monash Faculty of Arts Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia Building 11, Clayton Campus, Wellington Road, Clayton Telephone +61 3 9905 1221 Facsimile +61 3 9905 5117 Mobile 0407 865 159 Email peter.st...@arts.monash.edu.au http://www.arts.monash.edu.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Online shop package recommendations please.
I wanted to point out that Zencart is NOT a table based HTML. Yes, theres a lot of old templates that use tables, but theres lot of templates that are fully css driven, and obviously if you create your own (as I did) youre not restricted at all. The learning curve (to have it beautiful and shiny) is a bit steep, but shouldnt take to much effort to set up a simple webshop. Cheers Raul _ De: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] En nombre de ja...@flexewebs.com Enviado el: sábado, 17 de octubre de 2009 23:14 Para: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Asunto: Re: [WSG] Online shop package recommendations please. Magento isn't easy but it is probably most flexible from UI perspective compared to zencart (table based HTML) and jshop (also table based HTML), so theoretically it is easier to knock up templates for Magento than other two. I used both zencart and jshop and they are a pain to work with visually speaking. Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device _ From: Frederick Matzen frederic...@gmail.com Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 15:01:05 -0600 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Online shop package recommendations please. Magento is great but has a high learning curve and not a lot of template options, free or commercial, at this point. If you need a very full featured cart, I'd use it anyway. If you need a basic cart use Zencart. If you only have a couple of items I'd use Paypal buttons. Frederick On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 2:47 PM, ja...@flexewebs.com wrote: Magento is an option also possibly Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device _ From: hed...@digitalessence.net hed...@digitalessence.net Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 21:34:16 +0100 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Online shop package recommendations please. Hi, I'm in the process of quoting a few ecommerce packages/websites and currently looking at opencart (for a free and non supported solution) and JShop for a more pro supported version. Does anyone have any packages that they recommend? http://www.opencart.com/ http://www.jshop.co.uk/index I'm not requiring bar codes or EPOS integration so need to keep it simple. thanks. Hedley Phillips Digital Essence T: 01306 627 128 M: 07940 508 417 E: hed...@digitalessence.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] RE: More than one H1?
This is an argument which never seems to go away. Unfortunately the HTML 4 spec http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5 confuses things a little by referring to the relative importance of different heading levels, rather than their structural function. Nevertheless, it also says A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to construct a table of contents for a document automatically How a logo can be said to describe the section it introduces, or be used in a table of contents, is a mystery to me. Even the argument that the logo is one of the most important piece of information on the page is a bit thin: it's important to the site owner, but is it really the most important element to the reader? Google's advice to webmasters emphasises well-written, well-structured content, written with the user in mind. In my opinion, this includes using headings as headings i.e. text which describes the content it introduces. Although this tip is some years old, I see no reason to believe that the advice is incorrect http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/Use_h1_for_Title Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing cid:image002.png@01CA4FD9.A1958A30 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Marilyn Langfeld Sent: Friday, 16 October 2009 7:23 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest) Speaking as both publications, graphic and web designer, the real problem has always been that the title resides in the head, not in a title tag inside the body. H1 is reserved for the title of the page. In a document, at least, there's only one title, while there may be many first level headings. This confusion wouldn't have happened if HTML had a T1 and maybe T2 tag (title and subtitle). So H1 is, IMHO, not the first level header, but the T1, or main title of the page. A logo is never, IMHO again, the title of the page. Of course, all web pages aren't documents, which confuses the issue. But I believe this is the back story, at least it's what makes sense to me. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld cid:image001.png@01CA4FCD.D09053D0 www.langfeldesigns.com m...@langfeldesigns.com +1.202.390.8847 mobile On Oct 16, 2009, at 4:08 AM, c...@fagandesign.com.au wrote: Thanks for your responses... Why use more than one H1? Simple...2 areas of the page that are of equal importance. Why should it only be one? I understand the simplicity of focusing on one area of each page and the impact that could have in search resultsbut that that doesn't entirely relate to semantic structure. Is it not entirely plausible/acceptable to have 2 equally important area of the page? I feel the logo is very important. It is, in theory, the first thing people notice on a site and the single most important bit of branding. I understand also that a H1 is important to search engines indexingbut I'm yet to see/read/hear of any solid information that suggests Google (in particular) degrade the rank of your site based on the existence of more than one H1. Quoting Yuval Ararat yara...@gmail.com: Its not specified any where that a single H1 is the right approach. SEO guys have found that google search engine tends to read the H1 as the main subject and decided to punish any page with more then one. the punishment is not severe so not every one of the major sites obey. In HTML 5 there is a huge discussion about the header taghttp://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/header.html#header http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/header.html#headerand and the existance of h1 inside of it. my take is that this will not catch and only google and bing indexing will set the way they want to structure of pages to be. On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:45 PM, c...@fagandesign.com.au wrote: Hi all, have come across something that I'm sure has come up before... Have created a new site with the logo wrapped in a H1 tag. The title of each page is also a H1. Just got word back from an outsourced SEO expert who says it's probably better if there was only one H1 on each page. Does anyone know of any online resources backing up this theory? I don't think it's a huge SEO concern at all but the signature on my return email doesn't have SEO expert on it. Many thanks. Christian Fagan Fagan Design fagandesign.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
