[WSG] A Standards Oxymoron
Hi, After peeping the following requirement in a job description, looking for a Web Developer who can translate visual designs into pixel-perfect, standards-compliant html/css pages a grin rivaling a James Bond villain curled the corners of my mouth. Pixel perfect and standards is an oxymoron, complete opposed by goals and the nature of the web. C *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] A Standards Oxymoron
R, It seems we've arrived at another topic exposing the youth of both the web and Web Standards. The exchange is rich food for thought, and inspiration for research. Many Thanks, C On Aug 22, 2009, at 2:02 PM, Rimantas Liubertas wrote: Hi, I've sided with the following camps regarding the notion of pixel perfect designs and standards, so my interpretation of the job requirement left me amused by the juxtaposition. http://www.alistapart.com/articles/csstalking/ . And once we get over pixel perfect layouts (as a recovering pixel-nazi, I know it is really, REALLY hard) our designs should look lovely in any newer browser. http://www.message.uk.com/index.php?page=31 Why websites look different in different browsers (or why pixel-perfect design is not possible on the web) http://www.motive.co.nz/glossary/pixel.php I still fail to see how this leads to Pixel perfect and standards is an oxymoron, complete opposed by goals and the nature of the web. Let me quote http://acid3.acidtests.org/ To pass the test, a browser must use its default settings, the animation has to be smooth, the score has to end on 100/100, and the final page has to look exactly, PIXEL FOR PIXEL, like this reference rendering. (caps are mine). Toughest test to test standards compliance calling for pixel perfect match hardly makes pixel perfection and web standards an oxymoron. Though let me repeat: in most cases this requirement does not make any sense. On the other hand, it is not that hard to achieve as some may claim. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] A Standards Oxymoron
F, As in the case of clients that rigidly adhere to the notion of pixel perfection, the design usually spirals into perfection on a single user-agent, with complete disregard of the possible thousands in circulation. The jobs description just seemed one to avoid. C On Aug 22, 2009, at 2:43 PM, Felix Miata wrote: On 2009/08/23 00:02 (GMT+0300) Rimantas Liubertas composed: ...in most cases this requirement does not make any sense. On the other hand, it is not that hard to achieve as some may claim. Achieving px perfection on a designer's machine isn't so hard, but maintaining it on all visitor's machines is impossible. None do well when encountering the minimum font size or text zoom defenses too often required to use them. If existed web standards of politeness or user friendliness, such designs could never meet them. -- How much better to get wisdom than gold, to choose understanding rather than silver. Proverbs 16:16 NKJV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] An Acceptable Dropdown
Hi, All debates aside on drop-down menus, they're called for, demanded by some. I like this onehttp://www.csun.edu/, and wondered if anyone has a tutorial URL bookmarked? C *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Forms
All, The following article shed light on both mark-up and styling. http://www.sitepoint.com/article/fancy-form-design-css/ It should help. C, On Aug 19, 2009, at 1:11 PM, Erickson, Kevin (DOE) wrote: Wow! So what is the best practice??? -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Steve Green Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 3:59 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Accessible Forms -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Tom Livingston Sent: 19 August 2009 20:10 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessible Forms The reason I use this was because I found an easy way to style forms that included the broader compatibility for the clickability of labels for focus with the flexibility of layout with the inclusion of a span like: label for=name spanFirst Name/span input type=text / /label I use this a lot for putting the label text next to the input, instead of stacking, and it gives easy control of this layout. Any info on the wrapping of inputs in a label being bad would be appreciated. We recently tested this exact construction (with the appropriate 'id' attribute in the input element) and got surprising results with JAWS. It does not associate the text label with the form control even though they are associated in two ways (the 'for' and 'id' attributes and the fact that they are enclosed in the label element. JAWS does associate the text label and form control if the span element is not present but that limits your styling options. I have no idea why JAWS behaves this way. Steve Green Director Test Partners Ltd *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Forms
Hi, I recommend this publication http://www.rosenfeldmedia.com/books/webforms/ . It just arrived from Amazon today, and is very informative. C On Aug 19, 2009, at 1:42 PM, Erickson, Kevin (DOE) wrote: FYI- I did replace align=right align=center with CSS styling. -Original Message- From: Erickson, Kevin (DOE) Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:33 PM To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Subject: RE: [WSG] Accessible Forms I have two simple forms. Which is better?: http://www.doedev.vi.virginia.gov/z_testing_area/kevin/form_mail_vi/form _mailer4.shtml Code: form name=form_submit method=post action=/home_files/forms/form_mail_template.cfm p span id=sprytextfield1 label for=FirstNameFirst Name:br / input type=text name=FirstName id=FirstName size=30 / /label span class=textfieldRequiredMsgA value is required./span /span br / span id=sprytextfield2 label for=LastNameLast Name:br / input name=LastName type=text id=LastName size=40 / /label span class=textfieldRequiredMsgA value is required./span /spanbr / span id=sprytextfield3 label for=EmailEmail Address:br / input name=Email type=text id=Email size=50 /br / /label span class=textfieldRequiredMsgA value is required./spanspan class=textfieldInvalidFormatMsgInvalid format./span /span /p p span id=sprytextarea1 label for=CommentsComments:br / textarea name=Comments id=Comments cols=50 rows=5/textarea /label /span /p p label input type=submit name=submit2 id=submit value=Submit / /label /p /form AND http://www.doedev.vi.virginia.gov/z_testing_area/kevin/form_mail_vi/form _mailer6.shtml Code: form name=form_submit method=post action=/home_files/forms/form_mail_template.cfm p*Required information/p table width=800 caption Form Mailer /caption tr td width=158 align=right label for=FirstName*First Name:/label/ td td width=626span id=sprytextfield1 input type=text name=FirstName id=FirstName size=30 / span class=textfieldRequiredMsgA value is required./span/span/td /tr tr td align=right label for=LastName*Last Name:/label/ td tdspan id=sprytextfield2 input name=LastName type=text id=LastName size=40 / span class=textfieldRequiredMsgA value is required./span/span/td /tr tr td align=right label for=Email*Email Address:/label/td tdspan id=sprytextfield3 input name=Email type=text id=Email size=50 / span class=textfieldRequiredMsgA value is required./spanspan class=textfieldInvalidFormatMsgInvalid format./span/span/td /tr tr td align=right label for=CommentsComments:/label/td tdspan id=sprytextarea1 textarea name=Comments id=Comments cols=50 rows=5/textarea /span/td /tr tr td colspan=2 align=centerlabel input type=submit name=submit id=submit value=Submit / /label/td /tr /table /form -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:10 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessible Forms On 19/08/2009 20:04, David Dorward wrote: On 19 Aug 2009, at 19:35, Tom Livingston wrote: On a slightly related topic, I have wrapped inputs inside of labels for browser compatibility for the label clickability/focus issue (based on some research some time ago), but have just read for the first time recently, that this is not a good idea. Any thoughts? It isn't really a bad
Re: [WSG] table inside a dd?
Hi, A little late to the thread, but how about: the contents of the table captionSample Complex Table/caption tr th abbr=page id=pageNoPage Name/th th id=catCategory/th th abbr=tool id=acc axis=test resultsAccessibility Tool Test/th th abbr=manual id=man axis=test resultsManual Test/th th abbr=jaws id=jaws axis=test resultsJAWS test/th /tr tr th id=homeHome/th td headers=home catCommon/td td headers=home acc4/td td headers=home man2/td td headers=home jaws3/td /tr tr th id=resResources Welcome/th tdResources/td td6/td td0/td /tr tr th colspan=2 id=totTotals:/th td headers=tot acc10/td td headers=tot man2/td td headers=tot jaws3/td /tr /table On Aug 17, 2009, at 5:27 PM, Tim MacKay wrote: Thanks Ben and Christian for the replies, Ben thanks particularly for the links. Based on the accessibility bonuses of the methods you suggested I might opt out of the def list route and use headings. Thanks again. Tim -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis Sent: Monday, 17 August 2009 5:47 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] table inside a dd? On 17/08/2009 06:18, Tim MacKay wrote: I am marking up product nutritional information and am thinking of doing it like so: dl dt The Product /dt dd Paragraph blurb about the product /dd dd table .etcTabular data of the nutritional information/.etc /table /dd /dl Is nesting the table within the def list valid markup? Yes. I'd tend to suggest using headings (or headings inside a list) instead of a definition list, so that each product has an entry in the effective document outline: h2The Product/h2 pblurb/p table captionNutritional information/caption ... /table More practically, this allows non-mouse users of Opera (http://www.opera.com/browser/tutorials/nomouse/) or assistive technology (http://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Surfs-up/Navigating.htm) to skip effectively from one product to another, and surfaces the products in assistive technology heading lists. Some assistive technology does have some support for definition lists, but it's not especially pretty, which isn't surprising given the HTML spec suggests using the element for terms and descriptions, and also for dialogs: http://www.webaim.org/discussion/mail_message.php?id=11226 -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Checking CSS3 Support [hr / or CSS3 Border Background]
Hi, Many Thanks. Just what was desired. C On Aug 10, 2009, at 1:20 PM, Ross Bruniges wrote: http://www.modernizr.com/ From: Bushidodeep field.ni...@gmail.com Does a JS/DOM script exist for checking CSS3 support across user- agents? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Checking CSS3 Support [hr / or CSS3 Border Background]
Hi, As usual, all the replies to my post have been valuable, providing much to think about. Does a JS/DOM script exist for checking CSS3 support across user-agents? C On Aug 9, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Keryx Web wrote: On 2009-08-09 12:48, Stuart Foulstone wrote: The hr element represents a paragraph-level thematic break, e.g. a scene change in a story, or a transition to another topic within a section of a reference book. Correct, but rarely useful. The only indication given to users is visual. I do not think AT-technologies picks it up. So the decision is circumstantial, sometime you use hr, and sometimes use CSS 3 border background property. I've not seen a case in a really long while where an hr would be useful, except for debugging. hr / deprecated in XHTML and the correct mark-up is to use a header which helps to help define that relationship. No, it is not. But it is better avoided, as said by many in this thread. -- Keryx Web (Lars Gunther) http://keryx.se/ http://twitter.com/itpastorn/ http://itpastorn.blogspot.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] hr / or CSS3 Border Background
Hi, After reading the following article, I ask which is more semantic, using the hr / element with a background or using the CSS3 border background property? C http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2008/09/09/the-hr-contest-results-download-your-fresh-hr-line-now/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] hr / or CSS3 Border Background
Hi, Thanks, SMASH has some good contributions. As with any resource, absorb what is useful, reject the useless. Does any DOM conditional exist for checking CSS3 support in user agents? C On Aug 8, 2009, at 7:53 PM, tee wrote: On Aug 8, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Bushidodeep wrote: Hi, After reading the following article, I ask which is more semantic, using the hr / element with a background or using the CSS3 border background property? C http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2008/09/09/the-hr-contest-results-download-your-fresh-hr-line-now/ I never use hr tag, find it unsemantical and redundant. Before CSS3 is fully supported by all important browsers, the semantic way I use is utilizing one of the existing div or type selector. Site like smashing magazine feeds hype which is unhelpful for web standards and accessibility–but this is what the site's purpose is: vanity, kitsch and hype. Oops, I hope the site owner isn't a member here :-) However, seeing that HTML 5 has given hr tag a new purpose: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-hr-element http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#flow-content-0 quote: The hr element represents a paragraph-level thematic break, e.g. a scene change in a story, or a transition to another topic within a section of a reference book. So the decision is circumstantial, sometime you use hr, and sometimes use CSS 3 border background property. Then my question, what about those who prefer to stick with XHTML? The hr tag is deprecated. In gassho, tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Usability in Links
Thanks, Would you provide url's on organizing links, for reference to the client. As that was also disturbing during the site check. CK On Jul 19, 2009, at 5:07 AM, Stuart Foulstone wrote: Hi, if the different links are in clearly defined different areas there should be little confusion, even with using the same colors reversed. If you mix them in the same menu, then there's obviously a problem of consistency of the meaning. However, what you should NOT do, from a usability point of view, is have an external link in the middle of the site navigation menu, i.e. a href=http://www.homelesschildrenamerica.org/; title=National Response id=dhtml_menu-262CAMPAIGN TO END CHILD HOMELESSNESS/a The link color scheme seems OK from a color-blindness accessibility angle, see: http://vischeck.com/vischeck/vischeckURL.php?origUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.familyhomelessness.org%2FsimUrl=uploads%2F124800363616183sensorType=tritanope On Sat, July 18, 2009 11:09 pm, Bushidodeep wrote: Hi, Following is a link to the site in question. http://www.familyhomelessness.org/ On Jul 18, 2009, at 3:02 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: On Sat, 18 Jul 2009, Bushidodeep wrote: I've a client wishing to call attention to (2) a: links, in a vertical list by simply reversing with the hover color. The a:links are now the hover color value and the a:hover is now the a:link color value. After reviewing the change I found it conflicting with the surrounding a:links, so did some of my flat-mates used for usability testing. Would someone suggest a method that doesn't cause disharmony, or is it just nit-picking on our part? Use different colours. (And post a URL so we can see whether there really is a problem.) -- Chris F.A. Johnson http://cfaj.freeshell.org === Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Usability in Links
Hi, I'm also suggesting reordering the hierarchy (Taxonomy) of the navigation. CK On Jul 19, 2009, at 5:07 AM, Stuart Foulstone wrote: Hi, if the different links are in clearly defined different areas there should be little confusion, even with using the same colors reversed. If you mix them in the same menu, then there's obviously a problem of consistency of the meaning. However, what you should NOT do, from a usability point of view, is have an external link in the middle of the site navigation menu, i.e. a href=http://www.homelesschildrenamerica.org/; title=National Response id=dhtml_menu-262CAMPAIGN TO END CHILD HOMELESSNESS/a The link color scheme seems OK from a color-blindness accessibility angle, see: http://vischeck.com/vischeck/vischeckURL.php?origUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.familyhomelessness.org%2FsimUrl=uploads%2F124800363616183sensorType=tritanope On Sat, July 18, 2009 11:09 pm, Bushidodeep wrote: Hi, Following is a link to the site in question. http://www.familyhomelessness.org/ On Jul 18, 2009, at 3:02 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: On Sat, 18 Jul 2009, Bushidodeep wrote: I've a client wishing to call attention to (2) a: links, in a vertical list by simply reversing with the hover color. The a:links are now the hover color value and the a:hover is now the a:link color value. After reviewing the change I found it conflicting with the surrounding a:links, so did some of my flat-mates used for usability testing. Would someone suggest a method that doesn't cause disharmony, or is it just nit-picking on our part? Use different colours. (And post a URL so we can see whether there really is a problem.) -- Chris F.A. Johnson http://cfaj.freeshell.org === Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Usability in Links
Hi All, I've a client wishing to call attention to (2) a: links, in a vertical list by simply reversing with the hover color. The a:links are now the hover color value and the a:hover is now the a:link color value. After reviewing the change I found it conflicting with the surrounding a:links, so did some of my flat-mates used for usability testing. Would someone suggest a method that doesn't cause disharmony, or is it just nit-picking on our part? CK *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Usability in Links
Hi, Following is a link to the site in question. http://www.familyhomelessness.org/ On Jul 18, 2009, at 3:02 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: On Sat, 18 Jul 2009, Bushidodeep wrote: I've a client wishing to call attention to (2) a: links, in a vertical list by simply reversing with the hover color. The a:links are now the hover color value and the a:hover is now the a:link color value. After reviewing the change I found it conflicting with the surrounding a:links, so did some of my flat-mates used for usability testing. Would someone suggest a method that doesn't cause disharmony, or is it just nit-picking on our part? Use different colours. (And post a URL so we can see whether there really is a problem.) -- Chris F.A. Johnson http://cfaj.freeshell.org === Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Usability in Links
Hi, My (our) thoughts, my commission was developing a DRUPAL theme. Having not had a hand in the design, the .psd was provided, has stirred some questions with usability and accessibility. I'll address these with the client. Many Thanks, CK On Jul 18, 2009, at 8:42 PM, dwain wrote: On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 5:09 PM, Bushidodeep field.ni...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Following is a link to the site in question. http://www.familyhomelessness.org/ the way the links are currently set when i hover over the blue link that is next to an orange link things get a bit confusing when the two links meld in color. i also checked the color contrast on the links and they do not fair well for visitors with color blindness. you might want to talk with your client about this issue, if you feel that it is important enough to address. also, the pointers on the links on the left of the page made me think that a fly-out menu was available. not a critical issue, but could also cause some confusion. cheers, dwain -- Fear of the devil is one way of doubting God. - Kahlil Gibran *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
