RE: [WSG] Jello Mold not working right in IE/Win
Title: Message Can anyone who is running a larger resolution than 1024x768 please have a look and tell me if the layout is holding up? Looks good at 1600-1000px. Scrollbar appears at 999px. -Nigel
RE: [WSG] the kind of assignment that makes you want to scream
Can you imagine being the one stuck with creating this navigation scheme? http://shop2.outpost.com/product/4600108?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG Ouch. Didn't Amazon look like that for a while? Buy a House | Sell a House | Adopt a Child | Sell a Child... -Nigel ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] CSS Driven?
The idea that table based designs look like something from 1998 is ridiculous. I've seen a lot excellent visual design which is implemented in table form (some well others not so well). On the other hand some of what passes for design on this list may be great in terms of standards and accessibility but is laughable in terms of visual design. The point being, neither method has the monopoly on good design, certainly not CSS which has more than its fair share of bland cookie-cutter sites. I strive to exploit the power of CSS but if due to real world constraints (including my knowledge of CSS) I'm forced to use a table, then so be it. As it happens I've only built 1 table based site this year and I have no shame and no regrets, the site brings in millions of dollars a year. -Nigel ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] CSS Driven?
Christian Montoya: What we call a 1998 design is 2 or 3 columns, equal height, every column a different color. The key is the columns being different colors. It was very typical in 1998, and looks retro now. Many of us are just tired of seeing it. Not sure of your point, though the implication is still table based designs are usually multi-colored columns in which case I disagree. Plain old column layouts different colored or not are a dime a dozen in CSS too. But yes, if we're doing them let's do them in CSS. (Side note: IMO the columns being different colors is a non-essential differentiator for something as complex as design styles.) This may be true, but there is one big difference between an ugly table based site and an ugly pure css site: the ugly css site is bad for one reason, while the ugly table based site is bad for two. I would rather have an ugly pure css site than an ugly table one. :) Me too, if I have to, but I was shooting for non-ugly. As it happens I've only built 1 table based site this year and I have no shame and no regrets, the site brings in millions of dollars a year. Maybe, but a site's success is hardly ever due to it's appearance. What it offers to users, and how usable it is, is far more important than the pretty headers. That's a superficial view of design, good design is about a lot more than a pretty header. It's about contrast, unity, logical structure, establishing the proper visual hierarchy, and all the other principles of design. Those have a huge impact on the usability of a site. In other words, I don't accept the appearance-usability dichotomy, they're deeply intertwined and good design enhances both. I really don't want to spend my time defending table based designs, they should be avoided as far as possible. And, as I said, the occasions when I've had to use them are *very* infrequent and of course it's done reluctantly, but given that time and resources are not infinite it can be a necessity and I accept that. Yes CSS rules! There, I said it, now leave me alone. Regards, Nigel ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] CSS Driven?
Terrence said: We're not talking about a specific look (like techno, goth, post-postmodern, deconstructed), rather a design pattern: a head/3 column/foot table layout with multicolored columns Yes, I think I get that, I just disagree with the implication that table based designs are such in a way that CSS designs are not, but moving on... Visual design, usually supports content. Absolutely, it should, always. That's a bit insulting isn't it, you really have no idea about the quality of design of this list's members? Maybe but that was not my intention nor my point. The basis is the links posted for review, signatures etc (on this list and others) - it wasn't an arbitrary comment. Nor is it an insult, this isn't a design list but a standards list and a truly outstanding one. Finally, if you think that's harsh you should hear me review my work. The first requirement of being a designer is a thick skin. 'Design' that begins and ends in the visual plane is really just playing with colors and shapes. Who's advocating this view of design? Not I (see my comment to Christian). Yeah, so do google and amazon, both of which are pretty laughable in terms of visual design. And oh, pre-1998 ;-) :) I wouldn't say they're weak in design, on the contrary their effectiveness is thanks in large part to their design. But I see your point, throw in the default gray background and turn on the table borders and we'll be partying like it's nearly 1999. Regards, -Nigel ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] talking points for standards
Stephen Stagg: A better way to force the implementation of Accessibility standards would be to set up a group, or just urge disabled people, to sue companies and web hosts who serve inaccessible sites. Once people and customers realize that getting it wrong will cost them, I'm sure that they will soon mend their ways. Wow. Isn't one of the arguments for web standards that getting it wrong will cost you? Obviously not enough in your estimation. I do believe that standards and accessibility are beneficial but that's a question that each individual, designer and business should decide for themselves. No one has the right to force them to conform [1]. In my opinion such we know what's good for you arrogance only harms the standards movement. Regards, -Nigel [1] http://nigelduckworth.com/publishing/?p=3 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] why liquid layout is important.
I don't think anyone here would disagree that the equitable delivery of and access to information and education is every persons right. I disagree. I'm pretty sure this is not the forum for this topic though. -Nigel -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Herrod, Lisa Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2005 7:48 PM To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Subject: RE: [WSG] why liquid layout is important. This is a great article Terrance, and while interesting from a design / technology perspective, I think the human side of this story is more important. I'm sure everyone who saw Doug Bowmans presentation at WE05 'Zooming out of the trenches' http://we05.com/podcast/ was incredibly moved by his presentation - I heard stories of tears. After all, building to standards is really about equity isn't it? I don't think anyone here would disagree that the equitable delivery of and access to information and education is every persons right. It would be great if we (WSG listers) could come together to work on a project like this - we all have such great contacts, it would be a very powerful thing to do. I've been wanting to do something like this for a long time, if you are interested too, please contact me. lisa -Original Message- From: Terrence Wood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 21 November 2005 9:28 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] why liquid layout is important. Sorry if this has been commented on in this forum: http://chronicle.com/free/2005/11/2005111602t.htm 10 Million 7.5in small screens, pretty sure that will change the face of the browser market. -- Terrence Wood ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: 'users with disabilities' WAS: [WSG] New front page for http: //ab c.net.au/
Vicki, Well said, sane and funny. Thank you. Nigel -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Vicki Berry Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 4:57 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: 'users with disabilities' WAS: [WSG] New front page for http: //ab c.net.au/ ... I have a disability therefore I'm a disabled user, and I'm also a user with a disability and I'm also hearing impaired and physically impaired. It just amazes me the importance people attach to labels. How can people get offended by a truth? My hearing is *not* normal. It's a fact and I'm not ashamed of it and though sometimes I get humiliated it's not because of labels! ... Call me what you will (but try to keep it polite... haha). ... ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] best practice?
Use:
body {
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
text-align: center; /* for IE */
}
Then override the text align center on your container with:
#container {
margin: 0 auto;
width: 750px;
text-align: left;
}
HTH,
-Nigel
-Original Message-
From: designer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 4:04 PM
To: webstandards group
Subject: [WSG] best practice?
Firstly, let me say that I have been doing standards only since last
September, so am very much a novice. I have upgraded 5 or so sites to be
XHTML/CSS etc, and got them to validate as STRICT, so I am happy that 'I
can do it', as far as it goes.
I have learnt quite a lot (in fact, it seems a helluva lot :-) and
picked up sufficient tips etc to be able to sit down and code without
thinking about it. (too much, anyway :-)
So having filled in the background, I'll tell you why I think I'm going
to be 'naughty'.
Most of my designs have a container, 600px-750px wide, which I like to
center horizontally, at least. So I've been doing the :
#container {
margin-left : auto;
margin-right : auto;
}
Thing. The point is, this doesn't work in IE, and as IE is very
important (like it or not), I've been doing the conditional comment
hack:
!--[if IE] div align=center ![endif]--
div id=container
This is some text
/div
!--[if IE] /div ![endif]--
Ok, but the centring doesn't cascade (except in IE) so, anything that
goes inside the container has to have the left and right margin:auto
thing applied to it.
I'm beginning to think that using:
div align=center
div id=container
This is some text
/div
/div
and a transitional DTD produces something which has less lines of code,
contains no hack, and the centring cascades down the line to the
container contents. I've got to say it, this DOES seem a much more
'sensible' approach. I do realise that this must not get out of hand,
but a limited and (in my view) valid case such as this is justification
for the occasional 'hybrid' approach. So, I'm not asking for a kind of
'permission' to do this (I can make my own mind up about that :-), but I
am asking if, in your view, there are any really important reasons not
to, and to assess your thoughts/responses.
In other words, using that conditional comment makes the code validate
strict, but only because the validator ignores it, so that could be
considered 'cheating'. So why not be honest about it, and admit the
cheating by using the align=center div for all browsers? As far as I
know, there isn't an alternative for IE?
Thank you!
Bob McClelland,
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
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