Re: [WSG] Semantics, lists and links
Hi Ellen A list is semantically correct. It also has advantages for screen reader users as they can navigate lists with a simple key combination. Glen On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 2:33 AM, wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote: * WEB STANDARDS GROUP MAIL LIST DIGEST * From: Ellen Herzfeld s...@xlii.org Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 18:35:03 +0200 Subject: Semantics, lists and links Hello, I have been, since forever, using unordered lists to mark up navigation links. This seems to be the standard recommended method used by all the people in the know. Depending on the situation, the list will be styled vertically or horizontally. No problem there. However, when CSS is disabled (or when no stylesheet is served for old old browsers), all these links appear as vertical lists with bullets. A screen reader will, I suppose, pronounce bullet every time before every item as shown in Fangs. Now, this is not an issue when the list is four or five items long, but when it gets to ten items or more, I find the long vertical list to be obstrusive. I am working on a site that has a main navigation menu, styled inline, near the top with ten links to the ten major parts of the site. And in one section of the site, all the pages also have have a second horizontal navigation menu with the twenty six letters of the alphabet. Without CSS, this makes for a very long, very narrow, list of links that you have to scroll past to get to the meat of the page. Yes, I do have a skip navigation and go to content menu at the very top, but still, I have a problem with this. An alternative solution is to put all the links in a nav with no list (I'm using html5 elements). The links will then appear on one line when CSS is disabled. I'm not sure yet if a p in the nav would be necessary for old browsers. The items can be separated by a non-breaking space for readability. I am trying to apply best practices and make my markup as semantically correct as possible so I have some questions: Is there a compelling reason to keep the lists? Would the markup be dramatically unsemantic without them? What do you people think? Thanks, Ellen * From: Ted Drake tdr...@yahoo-inc.com Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 12:05:18 -0500 Subject: RE: [WSG] Semantics, lists and links A screen reader will not say bullet. It will, however grab that list and ad d it to a secondary navigation tool for the page. Screen reader users are a ble to see all of the lists on a page, as well as all headers. They can the n skip directly to the items they are interested in. So use your lists and headers. It's good stuff. You can also add Aria roles to the list: ul role=main. Ted -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On B ehalf Of Ellen Herzfeld Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 9:35 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Semantics, lists and links Hello, I have been, since forever, using unordered lists to mark up navigation lin ks. This seems to be the standard recommended method used by all the peop le in the know. Depending on the situation, the list will be styled vertica lly or horizontally. No problem there. However, when CSS is disabled (or when no stylesheet is served for old old browsers), all these links appear as vertical lists with bullets. A screen reader will, I suppose, pronounce bullet every time before every item as shown in Fangs. Now, this is not an issue when the list is four or five items long, but whe n it gets to ten items or more, I find the long vertical list to be obstrus ive. I am working on a site that has a main navigation menu, styled inline, near the top with ten links to the ten major parts of the site. And in one section of the site, all the pages also have have a second horiz ontal navigation menu with the twenty six letters of the alphabet. Without CSS, this makes for a very long, very narrow, list of links that yo u have to scroll past to get to the meat of the page. Yes, I do have a ski p navigation and go to content menu at the very top, but still, I have a problem with this. An alternative solution is to put all the links in a nav with no list (I' m using html5 elements). The links will then appear on one line when CSS is disabled. I'm not sure yet if a p in the nav would be necessary for ol d browsers. The items can be separated by a non-breaking space for readability. I am trying to apply best practices and make my markup as semantically co rrect as possible so I have some questions: Is there a compelling reason to keep the lists? Would the markup be dramatically unsemantic without them? What do you people think? Thanks, Ellen
[WSG] RE: [BULK] WSG Digest
Am I the only person on this list who is sick of the constant and blatant advertising for this Content Management System? Don't we have rules against this? If so, they are not being enforced. -Original Message- From: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:w...@webstandardsgroup.org] Sent: Monday, 16 March 2009 6:42 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [BULK] WSG Digest Importance: Low * WEB STANDARDS GROUP MAIL LIST DIGEST * From: Sigurd Magnusson sig...@silverstripe.com Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 21:10:09 +1300 Subject: Re: Browser Backwards Compatibility -- How far back? Most websites we build at SilverStripe have IE 6.0 as a minimum, and even then, we're unpatiently anticipating the time when we can drop IE 6. FireFox (2), Safari (3), Chrome (latest) users are more encouraged to keep up to the latest versions, and have more aggressive update mechanisms, so we just use the bracketed versions as minimum. We have not given thought to Netscape for years. The same applies to when we're working on the administration interface of our open source SilverStripe CMS (www.silverstripe.org.) Cheers, Sig. On 15/03/2009, at 8:32 PM, wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote: * WEB STANDARDS GROUP MAIL LIST DIGEST * From: Brett Patterson inspiron.patters...@gmail.com Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 15:19:00 -0400 Subject: Browser Backwards Compatibility -- How far back? Hi all, I was just reading from a book that talked about some code that would not work in Internet Explorer 3.0, but would in Internet Explorer 4.0 and later, and Netscape Navigator 3.0 and later. This brought up a question that I could not find direct and consistent answers while searching the Internet...so, how far back would it be acceptable to design for, when it comes to backwards browser compatibility? I have been told from some sites, that Internet Explorer 5.0/later and Netscape Navigator 4.0/later, as well as Firefox 1.5/later and Opera 6.0/later. Is this correct? -- * From: James Jeffery jamesjeffery@googlemail.com Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 22:44:56 + Subject: Blueprint Grids After reading 'Transcending CSS' I have learnt that grids are not a replacement for table based layouts (as has been drummed into me by so called evangelists on IRC). I understand the importance of grids in print and non-web media and now want to start using them. I've started using Blueprint. I quickily scrolled through the CSS file and got a grasp for it. My problem is this. In the book I am seeing examples where they are using 4 and 5 columns. I have developed a layout, which uses the divine proportion. So far I have the container, and 2 divs. Now, within these grids do I use more columns to go with the layout and structure of the design? And if so, how can I overlap? For example, in the main-content area I might have 5 columns, now lets say using Blueprint and my own CSS I want to use 4 columns for the content and 1 for meta date per article. How do I use all 4 and leave the one? Sounds like a silly, vaugue, question ... I know. But I'm a little taken by this and am eager to learn because I feel this is going to greatly boost productivity. Thanks -- James Jeffery Web Developer and iPhone Applications Developer m: 07964722061 ** Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] a WCAG 2.0 question
Hello all I am interested to know whether the people on this list consider opening a new window without alerting the user to be a failure to conform to Success Criterion 3.2.2 of WCAG 2.0. The success criterion is as follows: 3.2.2 On Input: Changing the setting of any user interface component does not automatically cause a change of context unless the user has been advised of the behaviour before using the component. (Level A) The key phrases, I believe are user interface component and change of context. I looked up the definitions of both phrases. The glossary states quite clearly that a link is a user interface component and that a change of context includes opening a new window. However, the document Understanding SC 3.2.2 says Additional Techniques (Advisory) for 3.2.2 Although not required for conformance, the following additional techniques should be considered in order to make content more accessible. Not all techniques can be used or would be effective in all situations. * Giving users advanced warning when opening a new window. (future link) This seems like a contradiction. The WCAG 2.0 Recommendation is the only normative document, so it should take precedence over the Understanding document. However, the Understanding document specifically states that warning the user is not required for conformance. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Converting the heathen: never again
Any business owner with half a brain would march that person straight out the door. Not only would I forward the offending email to management with a polite assurance that I had not YET made the companies name public, but I would follow it up with all the messages of outrage and disgust that this post has aroused. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] IE5.5 indenting list items
A link to online sample of this problem, stripped back to just the problem area, and a link to the stripped back css file would help a lot. Thanks Russ ... Thanks Russ, I set up a stripped back test page as suggested and managed to fix the problem. I had the ul set to width:100% and the li set to display:block. Removing width on the UL fixed it. I left the broken test page online in case anyone using IE5Win wants to see the effect. http://cif-dev.opc.com.au/test-menu.html Thanks again Glen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] IE5.5 indenting list items
Hi All I have an unordered list as a left hand nav bar inside a div floated left. It works fine in IE6 and Firefox1.5, but in IE5.5, whenever a list item spreads over two lines, the second line is shifted to the left. It looks like the first line is indented, but I think the second line is actually outdented. Did I just invent a new word? I have played with margins, padding, text align and text-indent. I even removed the float on the container div and the problem persists. Has anyone encountered this before? Glen Wallis ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Video of Screen Reader Use?
This is a wonderful resource Justin. Thank you. Glen Wallis Hi Joseph, These are really great videos from the University of Wisconsin. http://www.doit.wisc.edu/accessibility/video/ I have shown these in a lot of classes and presentations. Sincerely, Justin Thorp
RE: [WSG] CSS class and id naming conventions
I try to avoid words like left and right. I use navOne, navTwo for primary and secondary navigation. It works quite well for me. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Oppenheim Sent: Thursday, 29 September 2005 11:25 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] CSS class and id naming conventions Hi all, Does anyone know of a set of naming conventions for css classes and ids? Should they have semantic meaning? I.E. address rather than bottom. How should you go about naming the right column div. div id=right-col/div div id=right_col/div div id=right-column/div div id=right_column/div div id=rightcol/div div id=rightcolumn/div div id=right/div What about for file names. naming_conventions.html naming-conventions.html namingconventions.html namingConventions.html conventions.html I tend to use underscore for class and id, try very much to stay away from two word file names. Also, I have noticed that many people use directories and the index of each rather than file names. I.E. http://www.companyname.com.au/stuff/conventions Is this for accessibility? Sorry about the question of three parts, but what do guys you think? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
