[WSG] Mystery connection of css and non-liquid design
Something I find really strange is that a lot of people who put emphasis on Web Standards suddenly found their way back to non-liquid, 800px, centered design. I am wondering why that is? The majority of pages that show up in this group for review display some kind of centered design with 800px (or less) width. Not only that, but a lot of pages that deal with web standards or CSS do the same: http://www.alistapart.com/ http://www.css-blog.com/ http://www.webstandardsawards.com/ http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/164/164.csspage=0 http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/163/163.csspage=0 http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/162/162.csspage=0 ... (you can go down the entire list of css Zengarden) Can anybody clear this one up for me? I find this amazing: when I browse the web and come across one of those pages I don't even have to look at the code: it's almost 90% certain that the site was done in CSS. Andreas Boehmer User Experience Consultant Phone: (03) 9386 8907 Mobile: (0411) 097 038 http://www.addictiveMedia.com.au Consulting | Accessibility | Usability | Development ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Mystery connection of css and non-liquid design
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Vicki Berry Sent: Monday, 2 May 2005 9:05 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Mystery connection of css and non-liquid design I can't speak for anyone else but as displays (monitors/resolution) get larger and larger, liquid designs (IMO) start to look ridiculous. Text is easier to read in short stretches than in loong lines across a page. It's an accessibility thing. I agree with you in certain aspects - yes, text stretched all along the monitor does look strange. But then again so does a 800px design on a 21 monitor. And you don't necessarily have to make the text fluid - you could only make certain aspects of the design fill the entire screen. I am not so much complaining about the fact that people came back to 800px wide design as that I find it curious that they all look a bit the same. On 02/05/2005, at 6:56 PM, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: Something I find really strange is that a lot of people who put emphasis on Web Standards suddenly found their way back to non-liquid, 800px, centered design. I am wondering why that is? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Mystery connection of css and non-liquid design
Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] schrieb: Something I find really strange is that a lot of people who put emphasis on Web Standards suddenly found their way back to non-liquid, 800px, centered design. I am wondering why that is? Andreas, there is a long discussion with many comments in some blogs (I think one of the recent triggers was http://adactio.com/journal/display.php/20050415012704.xml) i.e. http://www.molly.com/2005/04/16/fixed-versus-liquid-the-beating-goes-on/ and http://www.ellythompson.co.uk/blog/2005/04/25/fixed-width-layout-the-desire-for-pixel-precision/ notes the same for csszengarden and http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200504/about_fluid_and_fixed_width_layouts/ (sorry if I may have missed one's blog). and I found this answer (Fixed or fluid width? Elastic!) here http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200504/fixed_or_fluid_width_elastic/ inspiriting. Ingo ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Mystery connection of css and non-liquid design
Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: Something I find really strange is that a lot of people who put emphasis on Web Standards suddenly found their way back to non-liquid, 800px, centered design. I am wondering why that is? Makes me wonder too. :-) I find this amazing: when I browse the web and come across one of those pages I don't even have to look at the code: it's almost 90% certain that the site was done in CSS. ...and I'm sure most of them are structural copies of someone else's solutions - which are copies... of copies... --- Generally: I think most designers takes the easy way out when they ditch tables and start working with CSS. - Controlling liquid or quasi-liquid CSS layouts is slightly harder than keeping control of fixed layouts. - Min/max control doesn't work by default in IE (important point). - Line-length (text) is better kept short (important point). - 800px width is safe since everyone have larger screens. - If everyone else is doing it -- why shouldn't I. - Showcases of type 'csszengarden' are often made for design only -- not for delivering content. What's right and what's wrong isn't - or at least shouldn't be - an issue, of course. However, all types of layouts provides the same degree of control when one have learned how to control them, so web designers of today should at least learn how to handle all of them -- in all combinations. Choices are better made when we know and understand all the pros and cons of all available alternatives. That takes time... which is better spent on killing bugs..(?) regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Mystery connection of css and non-liquid design
and I found this answer (Fixed or fluid width? Elastic!) here I was going to say so... Elastic design ! As Ingo noted, there is quite a bit of discussion on the subject. Besides the usual arguments, one aspect I haven't seen mentioned often. Webcontent is seen on a variety of displays : mobile phones, laptop computers, desktop computers,... each with different screen real estate and resolution. Then comes the Mac Mini and other 'digital home centres'. View your site on your television, with yet another resolution, and from yet another viewing distance. http://blog.x180.net/2005/01/let_type_scale.html (- pixels are so last century.) Philippe ---/--- Philippe Wittenbergh now live : http://emps.l-c-n.com/ code | design | web projects : http://www.l-c-n.com/ IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Mystery connection of css and non-liquid design
On 5/2/05, Gunlaug Sørtun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: Something I find really strange is that a lot of people who put emphasis on Web Standards suddenly found their way back to non-liquid, 800px, centered design. I am wondering why that is? i really admire a well made fluid width site. I think a fixed width site is potentially easier to maintain and set boundaries and limits for people who may be providing content to a site (like a definte size for a feature picture whos size may form a strong element to the page layout). I dont see the argument of if your site layout is a clone of someone elses its not as good as a completely unique layout as a valid one. Site design is becoming mature. Design patterns (or dare i say 'standard') that make sense and work (like fixed width and a top nav strip) emerge and these patterns are reused simply because they work, not because someone is lazy and copied. (I'm talking about layouts in general here, not outright copying of graphic design - thats obviously not an admirable quality.) As with lots of things in this game, it comes down to what your situation is. of course the beauty of a css layout is if you and your client change your mind, you can easily change your site to behave differently with a few css tweaks :) anyway, thats just my 2c :) pete ottery
Re: [WSG] Mystery connection of css and non-liquid design
Vicki Berry wrote: I can't speak for anyone else but as displays (monitors/resolution) get larger and larger, liquid designs (IMO) start to look ridiculous. Text is easier to read in short stretches than in loong lines across a page. It's an accessibility thing. It need not be a problem: http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/fflinelength.html -- Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made.John 1:3 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
