Re: [WSG] New Zealand Web Standards??
Joe - like your work. Point 2 about interested amateurs is more a commentary about the state of web design in general, not specifically those working in govt departments ;-) More about the guidelines lacking teeth: Cabinet paper is here. http://www.e-government.govt.nz/docs/cabinet-paper-200402/chapter17.html Um, so the consequences for not complying are? And which clause in the cabinet decision takes precedence: 3.2 should be compliant by next complete redevelopment. 3.3 must comply by Jan 1, 2006. See 3.2 gives you an out with compliance. Unfortunately, the guidelines don't extend to all those corners of cyberspace that government can influence (eg SEO's, intranets, local government, educational resources), although all others are invited to use the guidelines. I also recall (vaguely, admittedly) a memo/press release from Trevor Mallard, which seemed a lot softer than the cabinet recommendation, but I can't find a reference to it anymore (can't recall if I saw it online or in paper). Don't get me wrong, I am all in favour of the e-government web guidelines, they just don't quite go far enough IMO. Also, some of hardcoded recommendations are already outdated, and so will present problems in the future (e.g. web safe color palette, use of keywords for font-sizing, exemption required for xhtml). Terrence Wood. On 2004-12-08 7:32 AM, Joseph Lindsay wrote: There is a lot of transparence around how govt agencies procure services and the local 16year old with a pirated copy of DW isn't likely to get the job. As for the guideline lacking teeth: All 'Public Sector' departments _have_ to comply (I don't recall the dates (1 June 05?). Other crown entities (I'm not sure if this applys to SOEs like TVNZ) are _strongly encouraged_ to comply. Darrenbut i think every New Zealand web developer should read this document and try to at least adhere to some of these guidelines when building websites./Darren Darren I agree totally. Of course there is no need for companies/individuals to comply with the govt-only parts (like 'must link to govt portal' etc.) Joe -- You know you've achieved perfection in design, not when you have nothing more to add, but when you have nothing more to take away. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] New Zealand Web Standards??
This may be completely off topic, but I feel I should rant to you lot as you all share my views... I've noticed quite a few kiwis on this list, and that is *awesome*! It means more standards based design and development in our fair land...or so you'd think. I get _very_ depressed when i see high profile[1] new zealand sites completely drop the ball[2]... A few months back (maybe even a year) the NZ government released web guidelines for all their websites.[3] Sure, this is meant to apply only to government sites, but i think every New Zealand web developer should read this document and try to at least adhere to some of these guidelines when building websites. So far I've seen one NZ government site[4] that bothers to adhere. (I'm sure their must be more, and I'd love see them so I can feel a little better about being a web developer in NZ.) Am i missing something? Am i over sensitive? Much love and respect, Darren http://dontcom.com ps - If I didn't love Aotearoa so much I'd move to Australia so i could work with people who actually care about web standards...(present kiwis excluded, of course) [1] http://tvnz.co.nz - Inaccessible, slow, Flash, non-standards, table based. [2] http://nzherald.co.nz - I'm speechless. This is trash and the reason i wrote this email. [3] http://www.e-government.govt.nz/web-guidelines/ - Brilliant! [4] http://www.radionz.co.nz/ - Probably one of the first to go standards based. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] New Zealand Web Standards??
On 7 Dec 2004, at 2:19 PM, Darren Wood wrote: I get _very_ depressed when i see high profile[1] new zealand sites completely drop the ball[2]... So, jump in with irresistable proposals for redevelopment, and plan on retiring early! N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] New Zealand Web Standards??
Hi Darren Just joined the list a couple of hours ago...Anyway, our main site - www.mch.govt.nz - is quite close to getting there - though not yet perfect (what is?) it generally validates and does all that stuff. We're in the process of doing a major redesign which will be very much standards-driven from concept (the current version is me trying to fix the tag soup that was there before..). I've also done some more complicated stuff on our nzhistory.net.nz site (also in desparate need of a revamp) including this mult-media monster: http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/Gallery/parlt-hist/index.html . More recently, I did the Tomb of the Unknown Warrior site, which is also a .govt.nz one: http://www.nationalwarmemorial.govt.nz/unknown/index.html So don't despair too much, you are not alone! Also, while I think the Radio NZ one is ok, I think the Radio NZ International one is better: http://www.rnzi.com/index.php (though I'm not a great fan of columns that slide together with a narrowing window). Cheers Jamie Mackay Web Editor / Researcher Ministry for Culture and Heritage New Zealand -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darren Wood Sent: Tuesday, 7 December 2004 4:19 p.m. To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] New Zealand Web Standards?? This may be completely off topic, but I feel I should rant to you lot as you all share my views... I've noticed quite a few kiwis on this list, and that is *awesome*! It means more standards based design and development in our fair land...or so you'd think. I get _very_ depressed when i see high profile[1] new zealand sites completely drop the ball[2]... A few months back (maybe even a year) the NZ government released web guidelines for all their websites.[3] Sure, this is meant to apply only to government sites, but i think every New Zealand web developer should read this document and try to at least adhere to some of these guidelines when building websites. So far I've seen one NZ government site[4] that bothers to adhere. (I'm sure their must be more, and I'd love see them so I can feel a little better about being a web developer in NZ.) Am i missing something? Am i over sensitive? Much love and respect, Darren http://dontcom.com ps - If I didn't love Aotearoa so much I'd move to Australia so i could work with people who actually care about web standards...(present kiwis excluded, of course) [1] http://tvnz.co.nz - Inaccessible, slow, Flash, non-standards, table based. [2] http://nzherald.co.nz - I'm speechless. This is trash and the reason i wrote this email. [3] http://www.e-government.govt.nz/web-guidelines/ - Brilliant! [4] http://www.radionz.co.nz/ - Probably one of the first to go standards based. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The information contained in this email message is intended only for the addressee and is not necessarily the official view or communication of the Ministry for Culture and Heritage. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, copy or distribute this message or the information in it. If you have received this message in error, please email or telephone the sender immediately. ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] New Zealand Web Standards??
On 07/12/2004, at 2:19 PM, Darren Wood wrote: I get _very_ depressed when i see high profile[1] new zealand sites completely drop the ball[2]... I'm guessing there's an equal percentage of Australian sites who neglect standards. I don't think it's a NZ-specific issue, and nor do I think us Aussies are particularly standards compliant. Obviously us here on the list and many more are, but for every design studio that embraces standards, there are many more who do not. David Trewern Design (dtdesign.com.au) is a high profile Australian studio that builds great looking sites for high profile companies, but even their brand new sites are based on tables and a lack of standards, yet they're getting some of the biggest and highest paying projects in Australia. I just let them do their thing, and I'll do mine. Frankly, I don't want or need them to embrace standards -- it creates a point of difference between myself and them, and the longer they build non-compliant sites, the more legacy mark-up and bloat they leave behind (possibly for people like me to clean up a few years from now). What they do doesn't directly affect me in any way, so like I said, I'll just do my thing, and they can do theirs. (I'm sure their must be more, and I'd love see them so I can feel a little better about being a web developer in NZ.) Am i missing something? Am i over sensitive? Why don't you see this as a good thing? It sounds like you one of only a handful of developers that get it... that creates a point of difference amongst your competitors, and ultimately an advantage (you can build and maintain sites faster than they can). If I were you, I'd stop complaining and get in there! --- Justin French, Indent.com.au [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Application Development Graphic Design ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] New Zealand Web Standards??
Darren Wood wrote: I get _very_ depressed when i see high profile[1] new zealand sites completely drop the ball[2]... A few months back (maybe even a year) the NZ government released web guidelines for all their websites.[3] I think it's about 2 years old now. I was on the working group in 2002 to review them and I got CSS 2 in, and the W3C DOM rather than proprietary. In comparison to most overseas guidelines I like that the nz guidelines are short and that it's broken into audiences. Techies can read chapter 6 to get the gist of it. I think XHTML should have been allowed -- the reasoning at the time (as I understand it) was that there's no difference to the users between HTML 4.01 and XHTML, that XSL can output either, so it's a pointless choice. At the time I agreed that there was no real difference, but I think the reason why it should be allowed is because when software chooses a web standard they'll tend to choose XHTML 1.0, not HTML 4.01. The timeline for most government agencies is, "all new or revised content produced for existing non-Guideline compliant websites after 1 April 2004 should comply with the Guidelines as closely as possible; existing websites should become compliant with Version 2.1 of the Guidelines on the next occasion of a complete website redevelopment occurring before 1 January 2006;" I was the lead dev on http://www.work.govt.nz/ which is compliant. I'm not too happy with the graphic design of http://e.govt.nz, it's 3 years old. I did the html, and the interface is ok I guess. Is there a list of urls that should comply with the guidelines? [1] http://tvnz.co.nz - Inaccessible, slow, Flash, non-standards, table based. The sad bit is that they used a fantastic framework called Apache Cocoon (which I used for worksite.govt.nz) and yet when they released it they had multiple root tags (some of which were divs) and it ended up as tagsoup. The code looks a little better now, but it doesn't look like they're really that into web standards. Anything's better than the old tv2 site though. They're getting better :) .Matthew Cruickshank http://holloway.co.nz/
Re: [WSG] New Zealand Web Standards??
Darren Wood wrote: I get _very_ depressed when i see high profile[1] new zealand sites completely drop the ball[2]... A few months back (maybe even a year) the NZ government released web guidelines for all their websites.[3] I think it's about 2 years old now. I was on the working group in 2002 to review them and I got CSS 2 in, and the W3C DOM rather than proprietary. In comparison to most overseas guidelines I like that the nz guidelines are short and that it's broken into audiences. Techies can read chapter 6 to get the gist of it. I think XHTML should have been allowed -- the reasoning at the time (as I understand it) was that there's no difference to the users between HTML 4.01 and XHTML, that XSL can output either, so it's a pointless choice. At the time I agreed that there was no real difference, but I think the reason why it should be allowed is because when software chooses a web standard they'll tend to choose XHTML 1.0, not HTML 4.01. The timeline for most government agencies is, "all new or revised content produced for existing non-Guideline compliant websites after 1 April 2004 should comply with the Guidelines as closely as possible; existing websites should become compliant with Version 2.1 of the Guidelines on the next occasion of a complete website redevelopment occurring before 1 January 2006;" I was the lead dev on http://www.work.govt.nz/ which is compliant. I'm not too happy with the graphic design of http://e.govt.nz, it's 3 years old. I did the html, and the interface is ok I guess. Is there a list of urls that should comply with the guidelines? [1] http://tvnz.co.nz - Inaccessible, slow, Flash, non-standards, table based. The sad bit is that they used a fantastic framework called Apache Cocoon (which I used for worksite.govt.nz) and yet when they released it they had multiple root tags (some of which were divs) and it ended up as tagsoup. The code looks a little better now, but it doesn't look like they're really that into web standards. Anything's better than the old tv2 site though. They're getting better :) .Matthew Cruickshank http://holloway.co.nz/
Re: [WSG] New Zealand Web Standards??
duh me. OK... I agree with you Mike =) Terrence Wood. russ - maxdesign wrote: I agree with your thinking Russ... web standards are a means to an end not the end itself. They represent a philosophy, framework or tool set. Jut to clarify, that email was sent by me on behalf of Mike Brown, who is experiencing email issues. Sorry for any confusion. Russ -- *** Are you in the Wellington area and interested in web standards? Wellington Web Standards Group inaugural meeting 9 Dec 2004. See http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event24.cfm for details *** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
