Re: [WSG] Click here--reference
Does anyone know a rule I can point to (and send my client to read) re accessibility and click here? Some References: http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/navigation#clickhere Laura ___ Laura L. Carlson Information Technology Systems and Services University of Minnesota Duluth Duluth, MN 55812-3009 http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/webdesign/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Click here--reference
http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/noClickHere Fantastic, just what I needed. I Googled it, but didn't find that page. Thanks very much. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld Langfeldesigns http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1.301.598.3300 business phone +1.301.598.0532 fax +1.202.390.8847 mobile ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Click here--reference
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www/click.html should help Dear Brian, Thanks for the reference. It's great. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld Langfeldesigns http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Click here--reference
G'day I'm working on a site that has lots of click here links. I believe it's considered bad form to use click here rather than making the link on words that better represent the title of the page being linked. Does anyone know a rule I can point to (and send my client to read) re accessibility and click here? http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/wai-pageauth.html#tech-meaningful-links : 13.1 Clearly identify the target of each link. [Priority 2] Link text http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/wai-pageauth.html#link-text should be meaningful enough to make sense when read out of context -- either on its own or as part of a sequence of links. Link text should also be terse. For example, in HTML, write Information about version 4.3 instead of click here. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Click here--reference
On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 12:44:58 -0400, Marilyn Langfeld wrote: I'm working on a site that has lots of click here links. I believe it's considered bad form to use click here rather than making the link on words that better represent the title of the page being linked. Does anyone know a rule I can point to (and send my client to read) re accessibility and click here? For a client-friendly read, I like this reference: http://www.clickz.com/experts/crm/traffic/article.php/3514816 HIH! Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/ Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Click here--reference
- A website talking about Amaya - Download Amaya - The Amaya Forum - My aunty Amaya So, without verbs, it could still be more descriptive with slight tweaks and without using verbs - Download the Amaya Software - The Amaya Forum - My Aunty Amaya Then again, you could choose to solve the problem by hiding link content from modern browsers: http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/more-links/ Russ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Click here--reference
-Original Message- From: russ - maxdesign [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 20 September 2005 10:44 AM To: Web Standards Group Subject: Re: [WSG] Click here--reference - A website talking about Amaya - Download Amaya - The Amaya Forum - My aunty Amaya So, without verbs, it could still be more descriptive with slight tweaks and without using verbs - Download the Amaya Software - The Amaya Forum - My Aunty Amaya Yeah, it's better than what the original site had, but I am still not convinced. Why not express what the link does? If the link starts a download of software, why not say so? I can understand that people are against linking entire phrases such as Click here to view information about my Aunty Amaya, but a simple Download Amaya doesn't harm anybody, but makes it, in my opinion, more userfriendly. If you think about the phrase: Download the Amaya Software To me the link Amaya Software could still be taking you to a page that explains about Amaya Software. However, Download Amaya Software is a straight forward, unambiguous link. And this is independent to screenreaders. Let's say I come to a website hoping to download the software. The keyword I am searching for is clearly download, in particular if the entire site is plastered with the term Amaya. Users scan the page and the things that stand out most are links. So let's give them the keywords they are looking for - and in many cases these keywords may be verbs. On a different matter, I do like your suggestion on the Accessible more links. :) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Click here--reference
linked. Does anyone know a rule I can point to (and send my client to read) re accessibility and click here? Dey Alexander has a neat and concise paper on the issue - http://www.deyalexander.com/papers/clickhere.html Covers usability and readability as well as accessibility. cheers, h -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Click here--reference
Nice attempt Russ, but I'm with Andreas here. If the the link takes you to a location whose purpose is to execute a function (apart from reading/viewing) then why not state that. I've exempted reading and viewing as they're pretty much what you *have* to do on the web for every page - so that's kind of stating the obvious. However,for pages where you're asked to register for a conference, for example, there's no way you'd put: Register for the Forbes Conference. That seems confusing and not very user-friendly :o) So would you instead put: Register for the Forbes Conference. I'm not a huge fan of sites that link every word to something else. R :o) - Original Message - From: "Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:03 AM Subject: RE: [WSG] Click here--reference -Original Message- From: russ - maxdesign [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 20 September 2005 10:44 AM To: Web Standards Group Subject: Re: [WSG] Click here--reference - A website talking about "Amaya" - Download "Amaya" - The "Amaya" Forum - My aunty "Amaya" So, without verbs, it could still be more descriptive with slight tweaks and without using verbs - Download the "Amaya Software" - The "Amaya Forum" - My "Aunty Amaya" Yeah, it's better than what the original site had, but I am still not convinced. Why not express what the link does? If the link starts a "download of software", why not say so? I can understand that people are against linking entire phrases such as "Click here to view information about my Aunty Amaya", but a simple "Download Amaya" doesn't harm anybody, but makes it, in my opinion, more userfriendly.If you think about the phrase: Download the "Amaya Software" To me the link "Amaya Software" could still be taking you to a page that explains about "Amaya Software". However, "Download Amaya Software" is a straight forward, unambiguous link. And this is independent to screenreaders. Let's say I come to a website hoping to download the software. The keyword I am searching for is clearly "download", in particular if the entire site is plastered with the term "Amaya". Users scan the page and the things that stand out most are links. So let's give them the keywords they are looking for - and in many cases these keywords may be verbs. On a different matter, I do like your suggestion on the "Accessible more links". :) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Click here--reference
You guys are completely off here. Links are supposed to be like this: Get a href="" href="http://www.url.com">http://www.url.com title=Link to download Amaya, the W3C Web Browser for testingAmaya /a Links without titles are already inaccessible, regardless of context. The screen reader refers to the title of the link for relevant information. That's why W3C recommends titles for links. On 9/19/05, Richard Czeiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nice attempt Russ, but I'm with Andreas here. If the the link takes you to a location whose purpose is to execute a function (apart from reading/viewing) then why not state that. I've exempted reading and viewing as they're pretty much what you *have* to do on the web for every page - so that's kind of stating the obvious. However,for pages where you're asked to register for a conference, for example, there's no way you'd put: Register for the Forbes Conference. That seems confusing and not very user-friendly :o) So would you instead put: Register for the Forbes Conference. I'm not a huge fan of sites that link every word to something else. R :o) - Original Message - From: Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:03 AM Subject: RE: [WSG] Click here--reference -Original Message- From: russ - maxdesign [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, 20 September 2005 10:44 AM To: Web Standards Group Subject: Re: [WSG] Click here--reference - A website talking about Amaya - Download Amaya - The Amaya Forum - My aunty Amaya So, without verbs, it could still be more descriptive with slight tweaks and without using verbs - Download the Amaya Software - The Amaya Forum - My Aunty Amaya Yeah, it's better than what the original site had, but I am still not convinced. Why not express what the link does? If the link starts a download of software, why not say so? I can understand that people are against linking entire phrases such as Click here to view information about my Aunty Amaya, but a simple Download Amaya doesn't harm anybody, but makes it, in my opinion, more userfriendly.If you think about the phrase: Download the Amaya Software To me the link Amaya Software could still be taking you to a page that explains about Amaya Software. However, Download Amaya Software is a straight forward, unambiguous link. And this is independent to screenreaders. Let's say I come to a website hoping to download the software. The keyword I am searching for is clearly download, in particular if the entire site is plastered with the term Amaya. Users scan the page and the things that stand out most are links. So let's give them the keywords they are looking for - and in many cases these keywords may be verbs. On a different matter, I do like your suggestion on the Accessible more links. :) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Click here--reference
-Original Message- From: Christian Montoya [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 20 September 2005 11:31 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Click here--reference You guys are completely off here. Links are supposed to be like this: Get a href=http://www.url.com; title=Link to download Amaya, the W3C Web Browser for testingAmaya /a Links without titles are already inaccessible, regardless of context. The screen reader refers to the title of the link for relevant information. That's why W3C recommends titles for links. Hold your horses! What do you mean links without titles are inaccessible? That's quite a statement that you have to prove to me first. Titles are nice in some cases, but they only show up if you move your mouse over it (or your screenreader reads them). For scanning a page titles are fairly useless, which brings us back to all those poor people that don't use a screenreader - don't we want a site to be usable to them as well? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Click here--reference
I've been completely off on many occasions. However, I'd be wary of any definitive statement, especially in the area of accessibility. While we all crave right and wrong answers, there are often many shades of gray. :) While blind users are not the only target audience for title attributes, there is growing evidence that this attribute is very poorly supported on the a element by many screen readers. For example, JAWS allows users to read the title attribute within a elements but only if users change their setting in verbose mode. I've spoken to blind users who were either not aware of this setting or deliberately do not use it as it is simply too much information. Steve Faulkner has been doing detailed research in this area and will be presenting his findings and recommendations at WE05 next week - The title attribute - What is it good for? Absolutely nothing! http://www.we05.com/program.cfm Derek Featherstone also raises doubts about the title attribute here: http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/derek-featherstone.cfm#myth Consider a simple technique like adding title attributes to links. Despite the fact that we may use the attribute correctly, the effectiveness of doing so is unknown. Yet we take it for granted that it helps. Peace Russ You guys are completely off here. Links are supposed to be like this: Get a href=http://www.url.com; title=Link to download Amaya, the W3C Web Browser for testingAmaya /a Links without titles are already inaccessible, regardless of context. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Click here--reference
I haven't made up my mind about verbs in links yet, but a counter example to yours Richard: However, for pages where you're asked to register for a conference, for example, there's no way you'd put: Register for the http://www.forbesconferences.com/?page=registerForbes Conference. How about: Fill in the a href=http://www.forbesconferences.com/?page=register;Forbes Conference Registration Form/a. Damian -- -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Click here--reference
Well, I understand that screen readers don't use the title attribute like they should, but that is a bad implementation in the screen readers, not a misuse of the title attribute. That being said, I still think that the solution to: Download a href="" /a is: Download a href="" Software /a not: a href="" Amaya /a
Re: [WSG] Click here--reference
Hey Damian, Very valid point! It's not too difficult to turn a verb into an adjective. Somehow, though, reading your example I get the feeling that it's a very passive voice to read in. It almost *feels* like: Here's the Registration Form (which by the way you can also fill in). What else would you do with an online form? You could print it, but again 'print' (and 'register') seem to be different verbs to 'complete' and 'fill in'. They sound like context-specific Tasks rather than simply actions. In which case, I'd probably want to use the verb as the link text - it seems more forceful (at least from a marketing perspective) and there's absolutely no confusion as to what you are being asked to do: Register! Don't just look at the registration form and decide whether or not to. In response to Christian's claim - sorry but no one said we were abandoning the title attribute at all! This is a question of usability, rather than accessibility. R :o) - Original Message - From: Damian Sweeney [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Click here--reference I haven't made up my mind about verbs in links yet, but a counter example to yours Richard: However, for pages where you're asked to register for a conference, for example, there's no way you'd put: Register for the http://www.forbesconferences.com/?page=registerForbes Conference. How about: Fill in the a href=http://www.forbesconferences.com/?page=register;Forbes Conference Registration Form/a. Damian -- -- Damian Sweeney Learning Skills Adviser (online) Language and Learning Skills Unit Instructional Designer, AIRport Project Equity, Language and Learning Programs University of Melbourne 723 Swanston St Parkville 3010 www.services.unimelb.edu.au/ellp/ www.services.unimelb.edu.au/llsu/ airport.unimelb.edu.au/ ph 03 8344 9370, fax 03 9349 1039 This email and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any unauthorised use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this email is received in error please delete it and notify us by return email or by phoning (03) 8344 9370. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
