RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design
Can I just say something??? yes. It has nothing to do with the article itself. I really can't stand urls like http://www.notestips.com/80256B3A007F2692/1/TAIO-5TT34F The only way you can access them are via a search engine or book mark, no one will actually remember a url like this, it is not accessibile! http://www.notestips.com/articles/2003/1/ or http://www.notestips.com/articles/limitPageWidth Would have been better. Is this something for Standards or out of scope? -Original Message- From: Glenn Slaven [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 12 December 2003 9:22 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Fixed Width Design Interesting article on using fixed width design for sites: http://www.notestips.com/80256B3A007F2692/1/TAIO-5TT34F He makes a good point: Limiting the page width is about maximising readability. The more words there are on a line, the further the eye has to travel back to the beginning, and the easier it is to end up on the wrong line, which can increase the time it takes to read a page and decrease the ability to easily scan the content rather than read it fully. Scanning is considered the most common way for web pages to be read. A study carried out last year concluded that adults prefer a medium line length, children a narrow length. -- Glenn Religion and science are opposed, but only in the same sense as that in which my thumb and forefinger are opposed - and between the two, one can grasp everything - Sir William Bragg. http://glenn.typepad.com/news/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Fixed Width Design
russ weakley wrote: It is a debate raging around the web at present. There are other options that solve this problem: FWIW, a few weeks ago I created a layout with EMs as base unit. I've set min- and max-widths for better readability. http://www.webproducer.at/flexible-layout Tonico -- Tonico Strasser ?:-) http://Tonico.FreeZope.org Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de Check out http://www.WebProducer.at * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design
Now for the classic: What if you're in a internet cafe and you don't remember the url? Personally I *try* and keep the url clean and easy to remember [domain] / [object/function] / [key/id] -Original Message- From: Gary Menzel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 12 December 2003 10:05 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design The only way you can access them are via a search engine or book mark, no one will actually remember a url like this, it is not accessibile! accessible means that the content can be navigated, read and understood by the largest number of users. For me personally, a URL can be as cryptic as it needs to be. I don't find I need to remember a URL like that. I either keep the email it is in (which provides me context as well as how to get to it) or - if it is REALLY a kewl thing I want to remember I add it to my bookmarks and give it a name that I think makes sense. I do remember domains though (e.g. www.mydomain.com). In most instances I find the names that people give their directory/path hierarchies don't make sense to me anyways. They are just one persons (or possibly a small committee's) view of how the information should be categorised - and, in my experience, don't map to my view of the world. Gary Menzel Web Development Manager IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000 PH: 07 333 44 828 FX: 07 3834 0828 If this communication is not intended for you and you are not an authorised recipient of this email you are prohibited by law from dealing with or relying on the email or any file attachments. This prohibition includes reading, printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, storing or in any other way dealing or acting in reliance on the information. If you have received this email in error, we request you contact ABN AMRO Morgans Limited immediately by returning the email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and destroy the original. We will refund any reasonable costs associated with notifying ABN AMRO Morgans. This email is confidential and may contain privileged client information. ABN AMRO Morgans has taken reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy and integrity of all its communications, including electronic communications, but accepts no liability for materials transmitted. Materials may also be transmitted without the knowledge of ABN AMRO Morgans. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited its directors and employees do not accept liability for the results of any actions taken or not on the basis of the information in this report. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited and its associates hold or may hold securities in the companies/trusts mentioned herein. Any recommendation is made on the basis of our research of the investment and may not suit the specific requirements of clients. Assessments of suitability to an individual?s portfolio can only be made after an examination of the particular client?s investments, financial circumstances and requirements. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design
Now for the classic: What if you're in a internet cafe and you don't remember the url? My response to that is that the Internet does not support portability of your personal configuration information properly. This is what I think needs to be addressed - not what a URL actually is or isn't. That to me is the accessibility issue with regard to URL's (not what they look like). Over time, I am expecting we will find that the URL itself doesn't matter as much as it is made to at the moment. Gary Menzel Web Development Manager IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000 PH: 07 333 44 828 FX: 07 3834 0828 If this communication is not intended for you and you are not an authorised recipient of this email you are prohibited by law from dealing with or relying on the email or any file attachments. This prohibition includes reading, printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, storing or in any other way dealing or acting in reliance on the information. If you have received this email in error, we request you contact ABN AMRO Morgans Limited immediately by returning the email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and destroy the original. We will refund any reasonable costs associated with notifying ABN AMRO Morgans. This email is confidential and may contain privileged client information. ABN AMRO Morgans has taken reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy and integrity of all its communications, including electronic communications, but accepts no liability for materials transmitted. Materials may also be transmitted without the knowledge of ABN AMRO Morgans. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited its directors and employees do not accept liability for the results of any actions taken or not on the basis of the information in this report. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited and its associates hold or may hold securities in the companies/trusts mentioned herein. Any recommendation is made on the basis of our research of the investment and may not suit the specific requirements of clients. Assessments of suitability to an individual?s portfolio can only be made after an examination of the particular client?s investments, financial circumstances and requirements. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design
If I had a dollar for everytime that I had given some a www-less URL verbally and they've just entered www. blah out of habit, I'd be a millionaire! Ubergeek: Ok, enter the URL 'news.google.com' N00b: [enters www.news.google.com] Ubergeek: No, no no, no WWW! N00b: news.google.com, without www? wow, does that work? That's amazing! How about the http://? I can leave it out? OMG! -Original Message- From: Jonathan Baldwin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 11:12 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Fixed Width Design I agree. I've long advocated easy to remember URLs because, although most of us do as Gary says and get URLs directly from email, I've observed that a *lot* of users don't know that they can copy URLs from the browser so type them out when passing them on, or do it verbally, so it is important to have easy to remember URLs and to ensure that content is easily accessible from the top of the site. An easy to type URL is more likely to be passed on by people e.g. saying something like: I saw a great article at zeldman dot com, just go to the 'articles' section and look for 'standards' is, in my experience, how most people pass on URLs... On a related note, when will people stop saying dot and slash? Can't we move forward and instead of announcers after TV programmes saying wwwDOTbbcDOTcoDOTukDORWARDSLASHeastenders just www (very short pause) bbc (very short pause)co(very short pause)uk slash eastenders, using the punctuation like puncttuation. Wouldn't that work if it were adopted as a convention? It's make URLs easy to remember.(in fact we could drop the www like we dropped the httpcolonslashslash See Malcom Gladwell's Tipping Point for an excellent discussion of The Stickiness Factor - there are lessons throughout the whole book for designers and web site creators. On 11 Dec 2003, at 23:37, Taco Fleur wrote: http://www.notestips.com/articles/2003/1/ or http://www.notestips.com/articles/limitPageWidth Would have been better. Is this something for Standards or out of scope? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design
Just some examples: 2 I actually type in from memory pretty often: http://www.mysql.com/doc/en/ http://www.macromedia.com/coldfusion/ (which actually redirects to /software/coldfusion/ - very nice) and an interesting concept - each item/object has a unique keyword - tack .html on the end and its a url on this guys site. No structure as such but still... http://www.ftrain.com/PaulFord.html http://www.ftrain.com/Role.html http://www.ftrain.com/Place.html Cheers Mark -- Mark Stanton Technical Director Gruden Pty Ltd Tel: 9956 6388 Mob: 0410 458 201 Fax: 9956 8433 http://www.gruden.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design
Hi Gary, you always have wise words, so I'd like to know what it is and why you are expecting? -- Over time, I am expecting we will find that the URL itself doesn't matter as much as it is made to at the moment. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Fixed Width Design
You could always tell them to enter http://[EMAIL PROTECTED] In Internet Explorer, that'd really freak them out. http://www.secunia.com/internet_explorer_address_bar_spoofing_test/ Now tell me that IE is a secure browser... CHeers James Miles Tillinger wrote: If I had a dollar for everytime that I had given some a www-less URL verbally and they've just entered www. blah out of habit, I'd be a millionaire! Ubergeek: Ok, enter the URL 'news.google.com' N00b: [enters www.news.google.com] Ubergeek: No, no no, no WWW! N00b: news.google.com, without www? wow, does that work? That's amazing! How about the http://? I can leave it out? OMG! * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design
Over time, I am expecting we will find that the URL itself doesn't matter as much as it is made to at the moment. I was trying to say that URL's/URI's are not really for humans. The URN (Uniform Resrouce Name) is what we are actually talking about. This is a specific form of a URI that is persistent for a particular object that can always be found even if it actually moves from time to time. They aren't used very much - sadly. You see, the way everyone works is different. So to rely on a single categorisation of a piece of information is actually foolish. You want to be able to access a single piece of information in hundreds of different ways. The URL/URI is only a key to the information. A URN would allow a piece of information to be permanently identified but allow it to move around in cyberspace. An agent of some type needs to exist to actually convert it to a URL. Ultimately, the idea should be that once a piece of information - let's say a document for ease of conversation - comes into being it should be allocated some unique identifying key that NEVER ever changes. Even if the information is deleted there should be a remnant that it existed under this unique key (and possibly even still have history stored about that piece of information). And that unique key will never be used again. Then what you need is globally (universally??) accessible mechanisms to collect these keys and organise them in any way that makes sense to you as a user. Whack it into multiple categories, allocate keywords for it (which are just another means of categorisation), write notes about the item, etc. etc. So - my dreams a much less humble than hoping for memorable URL's. Hence - I don't care what a URL looks like. Just that the tools I use to access resources know how to use them. I wonder when/if Browsers and websites will start using URN's instead of URL's ?? Here's a nice page (with a nice cryptic URL) on the subject: http://searchwebservices.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid26_gci214164,00.html Gary Menzel Web Development Manager IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000 PH: 07 333 44 828 FX: 07 3834 0828 If this communication is not intended for you and you are not an authorised recipient of this email you are prohibited by law from dealing with or relying on the email or any file attachments. This prohibition includes reading, printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, storing or in any other way dealing or acting in reliance on the information. If you have received this email in error, we request you contact ABN AMRO Morgans Limited immediately by returning the email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and destroy the original. We will refund any reasonable costs associated with notifying ABN AMRO Morgans. This email is confidential and may contain privileged client information. ABN AMRO Morgans has taken reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy and integrity of all its communications, including electronic communications, but accepts no liability for materials transmitted. Materials may also be transmitted without the knowledge of ABN AMRO Morgans. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited its directors and employees do not accept liability for the results of any actions taken or not on the basis of the information in this report. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited and its associates hold or may hold securities in the companies/trusts mentioned herein. Any recommendation is made on the basis of our research of the investment and may not suit the specific requirements of clients. Assessments of suitability to an individual?s portfolio can only be made after an examination of the particular client?s investments, financial circumstances and requirements. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design
We must remember the origin of the Home Page. This was the page that your old Unix shell account browser saved their bookmarks to (the two I used to use were lynx and I believe the other was simply www). This page was (by default) the index document in your account directory (whatever.com/users/~username/). That's why it was a home page, it was where your brower started (by default). Then people started linking to each others home pages and the word became synonymous with the top page in a website. P -Original Message- From: Jonathan Baldwin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 12:55 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Fixed Width Design You and me both. My .mac homepage address has no www - but people automatically ask if I've missed it off when I tell them it. I suppose if the web were more forgiving then it wouldn't matter if you typed www or not. Like getting the post code wrong or missing it off - takes a little longer to get there but it does. But it's an irrelevance - time we moved away from it I think as a hangup from the old days when people who used the web used all sorts of protocols in their work (ftp being the only one I can think of that I still use, but rarely in my browser). It does seem (anecdotally) that people who have trouble with URLs stumble at www. Pipe dreams... don't you love them? On 12 Dec 2003, at 00:56, Miles Tillinger wrote: If I had a dollar for everytime that I had given some a www-less URL verbally and they've just entered www. blah out of habit, I'd be a millionaire! * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
