RE: [WSG] Org Charts
After reading all the reply's that have happened in the past 2 days, the first thing that came to mind was Oh God, what have I started with this question? :-) I was looking at the SVG stuff at the W3.org site. And yes, my mind was blown away. It's definitly not something that I can pick up and put even a outline in place in a few hours/days. Today, as I was examining the possibility of other solutions, I saw that Macromedia Flash is suppose to have some accessability capabilities (of course using a flash enabled screen reader). My queston is, how well does it work. I don't have a screen reader, so I don't have any way to test this, or hear it in action. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peters Micheal A Contr GSI/SCBN Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 1:57 PM To: Web Standards Group Mailing List Subject: [WSG] Org Charts Does anybody have some good examples of proper HTML and good css for a Org charts. Actually the semantically correct HTML just layers of unordered lists, and the corresponding List Items. I'm just having trouble visualizing how I need to construct the CSS under it to get the visually preferred tree structure. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Org Charts
Sorry about the duplicate posts. We've been having some strange e-mail issues the last day or 2 * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Org Charts
I still think that SVG is worth investigating though will be a steep learning curve. While I have not had time yet to do anything with SVG I have played around with it's Mutant Cousin (VML - Microsoft IE only). I have built some core objects in Javascript that give me a CANVAS and an OBJECT. Actual shapes derive from OBJECT and are placed on an instance of a CANVAS. My proof of concept is a diagramming tool. You can create a shape and can link the shapes with lines. Then you can move the shapes around and the lines follow. It is on my home system and I will attempt to put it up somewhere over the weekend and repost to the list so people can have a look (again - IE only). Gary Menzel Web Development Manager IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000 PH: 07 333 44 828 FX: 07 3834 0828 To unsubscribe from this email please forward this email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] If this communication is not intended for you and you are not an authorised recipient of this email you are prohibited by law from dealing with or relying on the email or any file attachments. This prohibition includes reading, printing, copying, re-transmitting, disseminating, storing or in any other way dealing or acting in reliance on the information. If you have received this email in error, we request you contact ABN AMRO Morgans Limited immediately by returning the email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and destroy the original. We will refund any reasonable costs associated with notifying ABN AMRO Morgans. This email is confidential and may contain privileged client information. ABN AMRO Morgans has taken reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy and integrity of all its communications, including electronic communications, but accepts no liability for materials transmitted. Materials may also be transmitted without the knowledge of ABN AMRO Morgans. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited its directors and employees do not accept liability for the results of any actions taken or not on the basis of the information in this report. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited and its associates hold or may hold securities in the companies/trusts mentioned herein. Any recommendation is made on the basis of our research of the investment and may not suit the specific requirements of clients. Assessments of suitability to an individual?s portfolio can only be made after an examination of the particular client?s investments, financial circumstances and requirements. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited (ABN 49 010 669 726 AFSL 235410) A Participant of ASX Group * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Org Charts
Miles Tillinger wrote: How well does the solution degrade for older browser and screen readers? I'm trying to come up with a topic mapping solution that degrades nicely. It's to replace an existing Flash-based topic structure, however solutions seem to be just as inaccessible as Flash anyway? The difficult bit to represent is the lines linking the objects. If I could represent it all in text it'd be no problems, but that seems to be a distant dream... I think older browser and screen readers are not relevant in this context. Organisation charts are by their very nature data-visualisations. I think the age old adage, a picture tells a thousand words is the very definition of the problem represented. -- geoff http://www.daemon.com.au/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Org Charts
Peter Firminger wrote: I still think that SVG is worth investigating though will be a steep learning curve. This one is pretty impressive, especially the relationships. http://www.w3.org/2003/02/W3COrg.svg SVG is just too damn hard too. There are two simple realities with the state of SVG today: 1. the player is enormous and is unlikely to achieve any form of ubiquity in the forseeable future 2. SVG cannot do what Flash can do With regard to organisation charts the difference in Flash and SVG functionality is probably not relevant. But if you have to develop skill sets, seems to me like Flash is a far better tool to be concentrating efforts on. -- geoff http://www.daemon.com.au/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Org Charts
Geoff Given that, from what I've seen of SVG, it's markup based - so I'm assuming that one could apply some XSLT to it and create a plain text version of it for those who can't navigate a SWF. The same thing could be done with Flash if you were to pull the data from an external data source - provide a plain text link to text based version of the data. Flash does have the bigger footprint but that's no reason to ditch other technologies - alternative technologies tend to make existing technologies better thru competition*. We have to be careful here also to not compare Mandarins with Cumquats - similarities in some respects but wide apart in others. Cheers James * except MS. Geoff Bowers wrote: Peter Firminger wrote: I still think that SVG is worth investigating though will be a steep learning curve. This one is pretty impressive, especially the relationships. http://www.w3.org/2003/02/W3COrg.svg SVG is just too damn hard too. There are two simple realities with the state of SVG today: 1. the player is enormous and is unlikely to achieve any form of ubiquity in the forseeable future 2. SVG cannot do what Flash can do With regard to organisation charts the difference in Flash and SVG functionality is probably not relevant. But if you have to develop skill sets, seems to me like Flash is a far better tool to be concentrating efforts on. -- geoff http://www.daemon.com.au/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Org Charts
It might be difficult and ultimately an unwieldy waste of effort, however charts aren't really a picture. The objects are visually simple being either boxes or lines. I guess that's why I'm trying to style HTML generated from XML topic maps and XSLT, but the output gets so complicated that it's as inaccessible as flash anyway. Just thinking about it makes my brain hurt... Mt. -Original Message- From: Geoff Bowers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 12:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Org Charts Miles Tillinger wrote: How well does the solution degrade for older browser and screen readers? I'm trying to come up with a topic mapping solution that degrades nicely. It's to replace an existing Flash-based topic structure, however solutions seem to be just as inaccessible as Flash anyway? The difficult bit to represent is the lines linking the objects. If I could represent it all in text it'd be no problems, but that seems to be a distant dream... I think older browser and screen readers are not relevant in this context. Organisation charts are by their very nature data-visualisations. I think the age old adage, a picture tells a thousand words is the very definition of the problem represented. -- geoff http://www.daemon.com.au/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Org Charts
Hi Geoff, I still think that SVG is worth investigating though will be a steep learning curve. This one is pretty impressive, especially the relationships. http://www.w3.org/2003/02/W3COrg.svg P Deb, That looks pretty cool. Is it dynamically or manually built? We've been working on dynamically creating org charts for HR data out of SAP -- we gave up on HTML/CSS just too damn hard. We've have since moved to Flash with tremendous results -- slick, animated, printable, cross-platform. Nevertheless I'd be interested in seeing if anyone's been able to come up with a dynamically generated HTML/CSS based solution. -- geoff http://www.daemon.com.au/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Org Charts
Title: RE: [WSG] Org Charts I bodgied up the html org chart at http://www.epa.nsw.gov.au/corporate/textorgchart.htm to replace a largish gif. It's tabled, but might help you visualise a CSS positioned list version. D Williams -Original Message- From: Peters Micheal A Contr GSI/SCBN [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, 24 April 2004 3:57 AM To: Web Standards Group Mailing List Subject: [WSG] Org Charts Does anybody have some good examples of proper HTML and good css for a Org charts. Actually the semantically correct HTML just layers of unordered lists, and the corresponding List Items. I'm just having trouble visualizing how I need to construct the CSS under it to get the visually preferred tree structure. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * This e-mail is intended for the addressee(s) named and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete it immediately and notify the sender. Any views expressed in this email are those of the individual sender except where the sender expressly and with authority states them to be the views of the Department of Environment and Conservation (NSW) which now incorporates the NSW Environment Protection Authority. The Department accepts no liability for any loss or damage arising from the use of this email and recommends that the recipient check this email and any attachments for viruses.
RE: [WSG] Org Charts
Great question! I must admit to copping out to a gif on the rare occasions we have had to do this but SVG may be an option. Does anyone know if the SVG plug-ins are pre-installed with browsers (IE in particular) now? I seem to have the adobe plug-ins (I'm on WinXP Pro) but can't remember if I installed it myself. Also what native support for SVG is around in the other browsers? P Does anybody have some good examples of proper HTML and good css for a Org charts. Actually the semantically correct HTML just layers of unordered lists, and the corresponding List Items. I'm just having trouble visualizing how I need to construct the CSS under it to get the visually preferred tree structure. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Org Charts
Hello Peter! I also use WinXP since 1 or two months; and whilst i have an analog clock made of svg on my desktop, i know that IE 6.0 hasn?t support for SVG installed yet, i had to make an install form adobe... Opera doesn?t render the clock neither before nor now. BAD NEWS is that what u wanted? Am Sat, 24 Apr 2004 04:12:25 +1000 schrieb Peter Firminger [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Great question! I must admit to copping out to a gif on the rare occasions we have had to do this but SVG may be an option. Does anyone know if the SVG plug-ins are pre-installed with browsers (IE in particular) now? I seem to have the adobe plug-ins (I'm on WinXP Pro) but can't remember if I installed it myself. Also what native support for SVG is around in the other browsers? P Does anybody have some good examples of proper HTML and good css for a Org charts. Actually the semantically correct HTML just layers of unordered lists, and the corresponding List Items. I'm just having trouble visualizing how I need to construct the CSS under it to get the visually preferred tree structure. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * -- DAS online-Lexikon... http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Org Charts
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:57:20 -0400, Peters Micheal A Contr GSI/SCBN wrote: I'm just having trouble visualizing how I need to construct the CSS under it to get the visually preferred tree structure. We discussed this on the CSS-D list ages ago, and were forced to conclude that it couldnt be done reliably with CSS alone :( (Google for the discussion) (We were discussing geneology displays, but the format is pretty close :)) Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/ Brisbane, Australia * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Org Charts
Hi all I have no idea what an Org chart is but I guess we are talking about graphing or tree views of some sort. I've done some cool stacked bar graphs in CSS with inline style - but I provide a plain text version as well (given that I use red and green on the bars). Peter F's question asked about the support for SVG in browsers: Gecko based browsers have some good support from Mozilla.org: http://mozilla.org/projects/svg/ Has a really good description of what SVG is and how to turn it on in Mozilla. This is a project not a product at Mozilla.org so it's not a stable build. Possible that we may get SVG enabled Mozilla's soon? There is also a mozdev project called SVG graphs http://svggraphs.mozdev.org/index.html An SVG plugin links and info page at mozdev.org : Windows - http://plugindoc.mozdev.org/en-AU/windows1.html#AdobeSVG Linux - http://plugindoc.mozdev.org/en-AU/linux.html#SVG Mac OSX - http://plugindoc.mozdev.org/OSX.html#SVG Opera has this info : http://www.opera.com/support/search/supsearch.dml?index=466 Cheers James Peter Firminger wrote: Great question! I must admit to copping out to a gif on the rare occasions we have had to do this but SVG may be an option. Does anyone know if the SVG plug-ins are pre-installed with browsers (IE in particular) now? I seem to have the adobe plug-ins (I'm on WinXP Pro) but can't remember if I installed it myself. Also what native support for SVG is around in the other browsers? P Does anybody have some good examples of proper HTML and good css for a Org charts. Actually the semantically correct HTML just layers of unordered lists, and the corresponding List Items. I'm just having trouble visualizing how I need to construct the CSS under it to get the visually preferred tree structure. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
