RE: [WSG] list heading - best practice?
Where do I start? There is nothing right about it. Definition lists are primarily intended for specifying the relationship between a term and its definition. However, the list items following a heading do not define it. Definition lists can also be used for other purposes such as marking up dialog, but none of those purposes apply in this case. An heading is all that is required, as others have previously said. Steve -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of coder Sent: 07 March 2012 12:42 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice? Come on Steve, tell us why not then? Bob - Original Message - From: "Steve Green" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 12:31 PM Subject: RE: [WSG] list heading - best practice? -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Oliver Boermans Sent: 07 March 2012 11:20 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice? On 6 March 2012 09:20, Dan Freeman wrote: > How about in HTML5? > > > Some Title > > Item 1 > Item 2 > Item 3 > > > > OR: > > > Some Title > > Item 1 > Item 2 > Item 3 > > How do people feel about a definition list instead for this? Some title Item 1 Item 2 Item 3 Ollie -- Nooo!!! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice?
Come on Steve, tell us why not then? Bob - Original Message - From: "Steve Green" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 12:31 PM Subject: RE: [WSG] list heading - best practice? -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Oliver Boermans Sent: 07 March 2012 11:20 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice? On 6 March 2012 09:20, Dan Freeman wrote: How about in HTML5? Some Title Item 1 Item 2 Item 3 OR: Some Title Item 1 Item 2 Item 3 How do people feel about a definition list instead for this? Some title Item 1 Item 2 Item 3 Ollie -- Nooo!!! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] list heading - best practice?
-Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Oliver Boermans Sent: 07 March 2012 11:20 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice? On 6 March 2012 09:20, Dan Freeman wrote: > How about in HTML5? > > > Some Title > > Item 1 > Item 2 > Item 3 > > > > OR: > > > Some Title > > Item 1 > Item 2 > Item 3 > > How do people feel about a definition list instead for this? Some title Item 1 Item 2 Item 3 Ollie -- Nooo!!! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice?
On 6 March 2012 09:20, Dan Freeman wrote: > How about in HTML5? > > > Some Title > > Item 1 > Item 2 > Item 3 > > > > OR: > > > Some Title > > Item 1 > Item 2 > Item 3 > > How do people feel about a definition list instead for this? Some title Item 1 Item 2 Item 3 Ollie -- @ollicle *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] list heading - best practice?
How about in HTML5? Some Title Item 1 Item 2 Item 3 OR: Some Title Item 1 Item 2 Item 3 -Dan From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Mathew Robertson Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 5:22 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice? For this example: some title blah boo ... any ARIA attributes are completely not required... tag, by definition, already titles the following content, simply by being in the same proximity, aka preceding some other content. The primary purpose of "labelled-by" appears to be to semantically link an given element to another; since proximity already gives you that behaviour, this use-case for this attribute would be when proximity isn't available, for example, say when something within a footer which references content from within the body. Aside... I never understood why "labelled-by" came into existence... there is already an attribute "for" which has essentially the same semantics... just promote "for" to be a global attribute. Thoughts? Mathew Robertson On 5 March 2012 20:51, Steve Faulkner wrote: Hi, agree with Russ here, for example does change the semantics? I think not, use of aria-labelledby is another way of doing the same thing. note in practice for the majority case neither is announced by user agents such as assitive technology at the moment. Also if it was then you would get a situation where if the user was reading through the content they would hear the heading announced then here the same text announced when they encountered the list straight after. regards stevef On 4 March 2012 21:46, Russ Weakley wrote: > The list title > > ... > > That way the semantic connection between the list and the heading is kept which I think is the purpose of what you're wanting, yes? > Cheers, > S > I hate to nit-pick, but I'd argue that the aria-labelledby does not really change the semantics of an element. The "semantics" of an element is about defining the element's "core meaning". The core meaning of an is that it is a level 1 heading. In the case above, the labelledby attribute "exposes" the content inside the heading (via the accessibility API) and associating this content with the unordered list. So, these elements will now have additional meaning for Assistive Devices that support ARIA. However, the attribute does not change the "core meaning" of either of the elements. Does this make sense? Russ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com | www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives - dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/ Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html <http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html> *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** LEXI-COMP CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE The information in this electronic mail is intended for the named recipients only. Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended receiver is prohibited. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by replying to this electronic e-mail or by calling 330-650-6506. Please delete it from your computer. Thank you. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice?
For this example: some title blah boo ... any ARIA attributes are completely not required... tag, by definition, already titles the following content, simply by being in the same proximity, aka preceding some other content. The primary purpose of "labelled-by" appears to be to semantically link an given element to another; since proximity already gives you that behaviour, this use-case for this attribute would be when proximity isn't available, for example, say when something within a footer which references content from within the body. Aside... I never understood why "labelled-by" came into existence... there is already an attribute "for" which has essentially the same semantics... just promote "for" to be a global attribute. Thoughts? Mathew Robertson On 5 March 2012 20:51, Steve Faulkner wrote: > Hi, agree with Russ here, > > for example does > > > change the semantics? I think not, use of aria-labelledby is another way > of doing the same thing. > > note in practice for the majority case neither is announced by user agents > such as assitive technology at the moment. > Also if it was then you would get a situation where if the user was > reading through the content they would hear the heading announced then here > the same text announced when they encountered the list straight after. > > regards > stevef > > > On 4 March 2012 21:46, Russ Weakley wrote: > >> > The list title >> > >> > ... >> > >> > That way the semantic connection between the list and the heading is >> kept which I think is the purpose of what you're wanting, yes? >> > Cheers, >> > S >> > >> >> I hate to nit-pick, but I'd argue that the aria-labelledby does not >> really change the semantics of an element. The "semantics" of an element is >> about defining the element's "core meaning". The core meaning of an is >> that it is a level 1 heading. >> >> In the case above, the labelledby attribute "exposes" the content inside >> the heading (via the accessibility API) and associating this content with >> the unordered list. >> >> So, these elements will now have additional meaning for Assistive Devices >> that support ARIA. However, the attribute does not change the "core >> meaning" of either of the elements. >> >> Does this make sense? >> Russ >> >> >> >> *** >> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm >> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm >> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org >> *** >> >> > > > -- > with regards > > Steve Faulkner > Technical Director - TPG > > www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com | > www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner > HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives - > dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/ > Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html > > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > *** > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice?
hi again, maybe i missed something but whats the issue with using heading in a list? regards stevef On 5 March 2012 01:51, Steve Faulkner wrote: > Hi, agree with Russ here, > > for example does > > > change the semantics? I think not, use of aria-labelledby is another way > of doing the same thing. > > note in practice for the majority case neither is announced by user agents > such as assitive technology at the moment. > Also if it was then you would get a situation where if the user was > reading through the content they would hear the heading announced then here > the same text announced when they encountered the list straight after. > > regards > stevef > > On 4 March 2012 21:46, Russ Weakley wrote: > >> > The list title >> > >> > ... >> > >> > That way the semantic connection between the list and the heading is >> kept which I think is the purpose of what you're wanting, yes? >> > Cheers, >> > S >> > >> >> I hate to nit-pick, but I'd argue that the aria-labelledby does not >> really change the semantics of an element. The "semantics" of an element is >> about defining the element's "core meaning". The core meaning of an is >> that it is a level 1 heading. >> >> In the case above, the labelledby attribute "exposes" the content inside >> the heading (via the accessibility API) and associating this content with >> the unordered list. >> >> So, these elements will now have additional meaning for Assistive Devices >> that support ARIA. However, the attribute does not change the "core >> meaning" of either of the elements. >> >> Does this make sense? >> Russ >> >> >> >> *** >> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm >> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm >> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org >> *** >> >> > > > -- > with regards > > Steve Faulkner > Technical Director - TPG > > www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com | > www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner > HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives - > dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/ > Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html > > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > *** > -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com | www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives - dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/ Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice?
Hi, agree with Russ here, for example does change the semantics? I think not, use of aria-labelledby is another way of doing the same thing. note in practice for the majority case neither is announced by user agents such as assitive technology at the moment. Also if it was then you would get a situation where if the user was reading through the content they would hear the heading announced then here the same text announced when they encountered the list straight after. regards stevef On 4 March 2012 21:46, Russ Weakley wrote: > > The list title > > > > ... > > > > That way the semantic connection between the list and the heading is > kept which I think is the purpose of what you're wanting, yes? > > Cheers, > > S > > > > I hate to nit-pick, but I'd argue that the aria-labelledby does not really > change the semantics of an element. The "semantics" of an element is about > defining the element's "core meaning". The core meaning of an is that > it is a level 1 heading. > > In the case above, the labelledby attribute "exposes" the content inside > the heading (via the accessibility API) and associating this content with > the unordered list. > > So, these elements will now have additional meaning for Assistive Devices > that support ARIA. However, the attribute does not change the "core > meaning" of either of the elements. > > Does this make sense? > Russ > > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > *** > > -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com | www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives - dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/ Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] list heading - best practice?
I do get what you're saying but I think you're using a much too narrowly defined definition of semantics when you describe it as defining "core meaning". This is going to just sound like so much bike shedding but semantics is more than just the core meaning and semantics also doesn't mean that an element's meaning is carved in immutable stone. Semantics is actually about deriving the intended meaning using the available rules of a given language. One to the sets of rules we have to clarify intended meaning of an HTML element is the WAI-ARIA specification. In the same way that Microdata may alter or refine the "core meaning" (or, initial meaning) so too can we use wai-aria to bring greater clarity to our intended usage for a given element. That it's implemented primarily by assistive technologies doesn't alter the fact that it's a clearly defined specification that does alter the semantic meaning of its element. In fact refining "core meaning" of different elements is exactly what wai-aria roles are designed to do. Using the standardised toolsets for the jobs they are designed to do is exactly the point of having these new toolsets in the first place. See also: Microdata. Cheers, S -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Russ Weakley Sent: Monday, 5 March 2012 4:47 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice? > The list title > > ... > > That way the semantic connection between the list and the heading is kept > which I think is the purpose of what you're wanting, yes? > Cheers, > S > I hate to nit-pick, but I'd argue that the aria-labelledby does not really change the semantics of an element. The "semantics" of an element is about defining the element's "core meaning". The core meaning of an is that it is a level 1 heading. In the case above, the labelledby attribute "exposes" the content inside the heading (via the accessibility API) and associating this content with the unordered list. So, these elements will now have additional meaning for Assistive Devices that support ARIA. However, the attribute does not change the "core meaning" of either of the elements. Does this make sense? Russ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** - Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice?
> The list title > > ... > > That way the semantic connection between the list and the heading is kept > which I think is the purpose of what you're wanting, yes? > Cheers, > S > I hate to nit-pick, but I'd argue that the aria-labelledby does not really change the semantics of an element. The "semantics" of an element is about defining the element's "core meaning". The core meaning of an is that it is a level 1 heading. In the case above, the labelledby attribute "exposes" the content inside the heading (via the accessibility API) and associating this content with the unordered list. So, these elements will now have additional meaning for Assistive Devices that support ARIA. However, the attribute does not change the "core meaning" of either of the elements. Does this make sense? Russ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] list heading - best practice?
Nesting h1 inside the ul like that is invalid markup so that's a problem.. Children of have to be In relation to marking up a title for lists I would probably use the aria tag aria-labelledby IE: The list title ... That way the semantic connection between the list and the heading is kept which I think is the purpose of what you're wanting, yes? Cheers, S -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Simon Josephson Sent: Monday, 5 March 2012 2:07 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice? Is there good reason NOT to use - #UL H1 ... so - ... ... rather than what I read here as .. .. Simon Josephson si...@artatwork.com.au On 05/03/2012, at 11:24 AM, Mathew Robertson wrote: > Interesting... who said that H? has document scope only? > > http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-h1-h2-h3-h4-h5-and-h6-elements > > Show examples of multiple H1's... H? is indeed suitable as a heading to a > list. > > cheers, > Mathew Robertson > > > On 3 March 2012 04:38, Hanspeter Kadel wrote: > > before the list. > > thats the way i do it, but it doesn't feel right. > > in most of my cases the is more secondary content, like menus etc. > > i want to keep to for structuring the main content. > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > *** > > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** - Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] list heading – best practice?
Is there good reason NOT to use - #UL H1 ... so - ... ... rather than what I read here as .. .. Simon Josephson si...@artatwork.com.au On 05/03/2012, at 11:24 AM, Mathew Robertson wrote: > Interesting... who said that H? has document scope only? > > http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-h1-h2-h3-h4-h5-and-h6-elements > > Show examples of multiple H1's... H? is indeed suitable as a heading to a > list. > > cheers, > Mathew Robertson > > > On 3 March 2012 04:38, Hanspeter Kadel wrote: > > before the list. > > thats the way i do it, but it doesn't feel right. > > in most of my cases the is more secondary content, like menus etc. > > i want to keep to for structuring the main content. > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > *** > > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] list heading – best practice?
Interesting... who said that H? has document scope only? http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-h1-h2-h3-h4-h5-and-h6-elements Show examples of multiple H1's... H? is indeed suitable as a heading to a list. cheers, Mathew Robertson On 3 March 2012 04:38, Hanspeter Kadel wrote: > > before the list. > > thats the way i do it, but it doesn't feel right. > > in most of my cases the is more secondary content, like menus etc. > > i want to keep to for structuring the main content. > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > *** > > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice?
I'd argue that headings after the content they 'head' fails the "how it will appear without style sheets" test. If styling's an issue, dig into your CSS selector toolbox for things like adjacent selectors (depending on browser support requirements) or, failing that, give it a 'listhead' class and style that directly – boring, I know! >From a purely pragmatic standpoint you could probably cheat and stick the heading inside a ul/ol but expect issues in various IEs, where even white space in lists can cause problems. Better off going the adjacent selector route, methinks. Josh Street +61 (0) 425 808 469 On 05/03/2012, at 6:55, Elizabeth Spiegel wrote: > Lists are usually preceded by either a heading or a lead-in sentence. > > Characteristics of a well-formed list > > List items have parallel forms. > ... > > > Well-formed lists have: > > parallel forms > ... > > > Think about how the list will appear with style sheets off: if you make the > title/heading the first item in the list, then you've turned what's > semantically a list of n items into a list of n+1 items. > > It's semantically appropriate to mark up the heading with even though > it may mess with your structure in the sense of grading headings nicely (h1, > h2 etc). Perhaps not so much of a problem if you place your menu after your > content and use style sheets to place it. > > Regards, > > Elizabeth Spiegel > Web editing > > 0409 986 158 > GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 > www.spiegelweb.com.au > > > > -Original Message- > From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On > Behalf Of Dan Freeman > Sent: Saturday, 3 March 2012 6:12 AM > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: RE: [WSG] list heading - best practice? > > I wouldn't recommend that. It may look OK stylistically, but not > semantically. I believe H? before the list makes the most sense. > > - Dan Freeman > > > -----Original Message- > From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On > Behalf Of coder > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 1:23 PM > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice? > > > >Quick links > > > >Noticeboard > > > > >Sitemap > > > > >Site policy > > > > >Useful links > > >?? Works for me!Bob- Original Message - > From: "David Dorward" > To: > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 5:28 PM > Subject: Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice? > > > > On 2 Mar 2012, at 17:07, Hanspeter Kadel wrote: > >> looks like back in 1984 people could use for the job. > > No, they couldn't. It was proposed for HTML 3, but that spec was ditched in > favour of documenting the then current state of the browser wars. > >> how to do it in 2012? > > > before the list. > > -- > David Dorward > http://dorward.me.uk > > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > *** > > > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > *** > > > LEXI-COMP CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE > The information in this electronic mail is intended for the named recipients > only. Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended > receiver is prohibited. If the reader of this message is not the intended > recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, > copying, or other use of this message or its attachments is strictly > prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the > sender immediately by replying to this electronic e-mail or by calling > 330-650-6506. Please delete it from your computer. Thank you. > > &g
RE: [WSG] list heading - best practice?
Lists are usually preceded by either a heading or a lead-in sentence. Characteristics of a well-formed list List items have parallel forms. ... Well-formed lists have: parallel forms ... Think about how the list will appear with style sheets off: if you make the title/heading the first item in the list, then you've turned what's semantically a list of n items into a list of n+1 items. It's semantically appropriate to mark up the heading with even though it may mess with your structure in the sense of grading headings nicely (h1, h2 etc). Perhaps not so much of a problem if you place your menu after your content and use style sheets to place it. Regards, Elizabeth Spiegel Web editing 0409 986 158 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001 www.spiegelweb.com.au -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Dan Freeman Sent: Saturday, 3 March 2012 6:12 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] list heading - best practice? I wouldn't recommend that. It may look OK stylistically, but not semantically. I believe H? before the list makes the most sense. - Dan Freeman -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of coder Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 1:23 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice? Quick links Noticeboard Sitemap Site policy Useful links ?? Works for me!Bob- Original Message - From: "David Dorward" To: Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 5:28 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice? On 2 Mar 2012, at 17:07, Hanspeter Kadel wrote: > looks like back in 1984 people could use for the job. No, they couldn't. It was proposed for HTML 3, but that spec was ditched in favour of documenting the then current state of the browser wars. > how to do it in 2012? before the list. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** LEXI-COMP CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE The information in this electronic mail is intended for the named recipients only. Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended receiver is prohibited. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by replying to this electronic e-mail or by calling 330-650-6506. Please delete it from your computer. Thank you. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] list heading - best practice?
I wouldn't recommend that. It may look OK stylistically, but not semantically. I believe H? before the list makes the most sense. - Dan Freeman -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of coder Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 1:23 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice? Quick links Noticeboard Sitemap Site policy Useful links ?? Works for me!Bob- Original Message - From: "David Dorward" To: Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 5:28 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice? On 2 Mar 2012, at 17:07, Hanspeter Kadel wrote: > looks like back in 1984 people could use for the job. No, they couldn't. It was proposed for HTML 3, but that spec was ditched in favour of documenting the then current state of the browser wars. > how to do it in 2012? before the list. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** LEXI-COMP CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE The information in this electronic mail is intended for the named recipients only. Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended receiver is prohibited. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by replying to this electronic e-mail or by calling 330-650-6506. Please delete it from your computer. Thank you. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice?
Quick links Noticeboard Sitemap Site policy Useful links ?? Works for me!Bob- Original Message - From: "David Dorward" To: Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 5:28 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice? On 2 Mar 2012, at 17:07, Hanspeter Kadel wrote: looks like back in 1984 people could use for the job. No, they couldn't. It was proposed for HTML 3, but that spec was ditched in favour of documenting the then current state of the browser wars. how to do it in 2012? before the list. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] list heading – best practice?
> before the list. thats the way i do it, but it doesn't feel right. in most of my cases the is more secondary content, like menus etc. i want to keep to for structuring the main content. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] list heading – best practice?
On 2 Mar 2012, at 17:07, Hanspeter Kadel wrote: > looks like back in 1984 people could use for the job. No, they couldn't. It was proposed for HTML 3, but that spec was ditched in favour of documenting the then current state of the browser wars. > how to do it in 2012? before the list. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
