RE: [WSG] screen readers & repeated legends (was "dl v table for form layout")

[Steve Green]

To answer the question, JAWS is the most widely used screen reader by a long
way in the English speaking world and some other markets, and anecdotal
evidence suggests that it is invariably used without any relevant changes to
the configuration settings. I hesitate to call it a standard because its own
behaviour changes from version to version, although some aspects are very
consistent. Nevertheless, it is the only sensible reference point for
discussion.

I would add the following points:

1. Some aspects of design affect screen reader users irrespective of the
screen reader they use. Designers should be aware of these issues, as they
should be aware of issues facing other user groups.

2. Few aspects of behaviour are the same with all screen readers. For
instance most 'professional' products such as JAWS announce semantic
information such as headings and lists, but some common ones including
VoiceOver (built into Mac OS X 10.4) do not. Some do not announce tables,
JAWS announces some tables and FireVox announces all tables. In the absence
of  elements, JAWS 'intelligently' associates nearby text with form
controls but other products do not. JavaScript support varies greatly. And
so on.

3. It is dangerous to specifically design for a particular product because
even the behaviour of one product varies from version to version. Not only
do features get added, but existing behaviours change. And if you install a
screen reader on a different browser it will behave differently due to
differences in the way it interacts with the browser's DOM and the varying
levels of MSAA support in browsers.

4. Some aspects of customisation reflect the user's preferences. The
punctuation verbosity level (none, some, most or all) would be an example.
The user adjusts this at their own risk, and the designer does not need to
take it into account. The language and synthesizer voice would be others.

5. You cannot rely on users changing the configuration options even when it
becomes easy to do so. Skill levels can be very high (our trainers are
awesome) but average skill levels are very low. When you consider that most
fully-able users don't even know you can change the font size, it's
unreasonable to expect screen reader users to be able to understand the
consequences of the hundreds (really!) of configuration options available to
them.


Before worrying about the minutiae of screen reader behaviour I think that
designers should:
a. Code to standards (not a problem for subscribers to this list).
b. Understand the users and their needs. This is a big problem because few
designers get the opportunity to see their designs used by any kind of
users, disabled or otherwise. Hands up anyone who has done any user testing
this year. Or ever.

Steve

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone
Sent: 25 May 2007 22:53
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] screen readers & repeated legends (was "dl v table for
form layout")

Hi,

Does the ability for the user of a screenreader to customise "at leasst
partially resolve the  problem" or should we design for the default
screenreader (which would mean Jaws presumably, since it seemms to be the
most commonly used)?

If we then design to this "standard", we should then at least have a
starting point for further constructive criticism.



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RE: [WSG] screen readers & repeated legends (was "dl v table for form layout")

[Stuart Foulstone]

Hi,

Does the ability for the user of a screenreader to customise "at leasst
partially resolve the  problem" or should we design for the default
screenreader (which would mean Jaws presumably, since it seemms to be the
most commonly used)?

If we then design to this "standard", we should then at least have a
starting point for further constructive criticism.



On Fri, May 25, 2007 5:54 pm, Steve Green wrote:
> Certainly JAWS reads the content of the  element before each
> 
> element as described previously, and I agree about keeping the legend
> short.
> My understanding is that other 'professional' screen readers also do,
> although some of the free ones may not since they typically have greatly
> reduced functionality.
>
> I would also agree with the statement that most users never change from
> the
> default settings. Whilst the ability to customise settings may appear to
> be
> a good idea, it causes difficulties when the user works on a different
> machine that has the default settings or different customisation. I
> understand that Freedom Scientific are working on a means of making the
> customisation portable, which will at least partially resolve that
> problem.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Nick Fitzsimons
> Sent: 25 May 2007 14:01
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] screen readers & repeated legends (was "dl v table for
> form layout")
>
> On 25 May 2007, at 01:08:49, Rebecca Cox wrote:
>
>> On 5/23/07, Nick Fitzsimons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>> As an aside, note that screen readers will read the legend of a
>>> fieldset before the label of every element in the fieldset, so
>>> legends should be kept short and sweet
>> This is interesting, just wondered if you had any other info about
>> this, which screen readers in particular and how customisable is this
>> behaviour to a user (eg is there an option to disable the repetition
>> of this info).
>>
>> Cheers
>> Rebecca
>
> Hi,
>
> I got this from Ann McMeekin's presentation "Accessibility: what not to
> do"
> at the WSG London meetup back in February  muffinresearch.co.uk/wsg/280207.php>. There's a podcast available at:
> <http://muffinresearch.co.uk/wsg/audio/07/02/28/ann.mp3>
>
> I don't have an exhaustive knowledge of screen readers, but what I've
> gathered from listening to those who do is that:
> a) They tend to be highly configurable;
> b) 99.9% of users never change from the default settings.
>
> Maybe somebody with more experience in this area can chip in with more
> detailed info?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Nick.
> --
> Nick Fitzsimons
> http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/
>
>
>
>
>
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>


-- 
Stuart Foulstone.
http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk
BigEasy Web Design
69 Flockton Court
Rockingham Street
Sheffield
S1 4EB

Tel. 07751 413451


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RE: [WSG] screen readers & repeated legends (was "dl v table for form layout")

[Steve Green]

Certainly JAWS reads the content of the  element before each 
element as described previously, and I agree about keeping the legend short.
My understanding is that other 'professional' screen readers also do,
although some of the free ones may not since they typically have greatly
reduced functionality.

I would also agree with the statement that most users never change from the
default settings. Whilst the ability to customise settings may appear to be
a good idea, it causes difficulties when the user works on a different
machine that has the default settings or different customisation. I
understand that Freedom Scientific are working on a means of making the
customisation portable, which will at least partially resolve that problem. 

Steve

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Nick Fitzsimons
Sent: 25 May 2007 14:01
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] screen readers & repeated legends (was "dl v table for
form layout")

On 25 May 2007, at 01:08:49, Rebecca Cox wrote:

> On 5/23/07, Nick Fitzsimons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> As an aside, note that screen readers will read the legend of a 
>> fieldset before the label of every element in the fieldset, so 
>> legends should be kept short and sweet
> This is interesting, just wondered if you had any other info about 
> this, which screen readers in particular and how customisable is this 
> behaviour to a user (eg is there an option to disable the repetition 
> of this info).
>
> Cheers
> Rebecca

Hi,

I got this from Ann McMeekin's presentation "Accessibility: what not to do"
at the WSG London meetup back in February . There's a podcast available at:
<http://muffinresearch.co.uk/wsg/audio/07/02/28/ann.mp3>

I don't have an exhaustive knowledge of screen readers, but what I've
gathered from listening to those who do is that:
a) They tend to be highly configurable;
b) 99.9% of users never change from the default settings.

Maybe somebody with more experience in this area can chip in with more
detailed info?

Cheers,

Nick.
--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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Re: [WSG] screen readers & repeated legends (was "dl v table for form layout")

[Nick Fitzsimons]

On 25 May 2007, at 01:08:49, Rebecca Cox wrote:


On 5/23/07, Nick Fitzsimons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


As an aside, note that screen readers will read the legend of a
fieldset before the label of every element in the fieldset, so
legends should be kept short and sweet

This is interesting, just wondered if you had any other info about
this, which screen readers in particular and how customisable is this
behaviour to a user (eg is there an option to disable the repetition
of this info).

Cheers
Rebecca


Hi,

I got this from Ann McMeekin's presentation "Accessibility: what not  
to do" at the WSG London meetup back in February muffinresearch.co.uk/wsg/280207.php>. There's a podcast available at:



I don't have an exhaustive knowledge of screen readers, but what I've  
gathered from listening to those who do is that:

a) They tend to be highly configurable;
b) 99.9% of users never change from the default settings.

Maybe somebody with more experience in this area can chip in with  
more detailed info?


Cheers,

Nick.
--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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Re: [WSG] screen readers & repeated legends (was "dl v table for form layout")

[Rebecca Cox]

On 5/23/07, Nick Fitzsimons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


As an aside, note that screen readers will read the legend of a
fieldset before the label of every element in the fieldset, so
legends should be kept short and sweet - for example the following HTML:


How did you hear about my donkey and its strange fate?
On the web
On the TV
On the radio
In the newspaper
Other


would be presented to a screen reader user as

"How did you hear about my donkey and its strange fate? On the web"
"How did you hear about my donkey and its strange fate? On the TV"
"How did you hear about my donkey and its strange fate? On the
radio"
"How did you hear about my donkey and its strange fate? In the
newspaper"
"How did you hear about my donkey and its strange fate? Other"



This is interesting, just wondered if you had any other info about
this, which screen readers in particular and how customisable is this
behaviour to a user (eg is there an option to disable the repetition
of this info).

Cheers
Rebecca


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