Re: [WSG] PHP Standards
not to self advertise, Ian, but the group I organise, ( http:// webstandards.meetup.com/130/ ) has quite a few standards-keen PHP'ers, as does the PHP London group. But as others have mentioned, it really is te (X)HTML portion that matters for standards compliance, at least in this context. Joe On May 16 2008, at 16:32, Ian Chamberlain wrote: Fingers crossed this is not too far off topic; being a newby to PHP; any clues where I can find how-to's, snippets, libraries or even application suites built from PHP that are built to a good minimum standard please. I am guessing that PHP is much like JavaScript in that a lot of what is floating about is either poor or pooh the result of all the good programmes stending their time on ASP or J2EE. Thanks Ian *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.typingthevoid.com www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PHP Standards
Ian Chamberlain skrev: Fingers crossed this is not too far off topic; being a newby to PHP; any clues where I can find how-to's, snippets, libraries or even application suites built from PHP that are built to a good minimum standard please. I am guessing that PHP is much like JavaScript in that a lot of what is floating about is either poor or pooh the result of all the good programmes stending their time on ASP or J2EE. There is no standard for PHP, but there are best practices. And they mimick what's happening on the client. Client: Separation of concerns between design, content and behavior. Server: Separation of concern between different kinds of logic. The number one priority having grasped the basics of the language would be to separate presentation logic from business logic, the second to separate business logic from data storage logic. When you evolve as a developer you may have even more tiers. Some people like to call this MVC. However, the web and PHP are ill suited for *pure* MVC implementations. But PHP has never been about purity... Another thing they have in common. Frameworks ar good, but not something you can use to avoid learning the language http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200701/learn_javascript_before_tasting_the_library_koolaid/ A third thing in common: All devs should agree on a style guide! Naming conventions, indentation, bracket placement, etc. A few more notes: PHPDoc is something that should be picked up ASAP. I teach it to newbies. Read the manual and search it thoroughly. The strength of PHP are the numerous built in functions. Replication of built in functions in userland PHP code is a waste of time, CPU cycles and makes the code bloated. And PHP 4 really is dying. PHP 5 is faster and has a ton of goodies. Do not bother with PHP 4 any more! Good books: Learning PHP PHP 5 Unleashed PHP Power Programming Advanced PHP Programming Lars Gunther *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PHP Standards
There are a number of ways to get tasks done on the intnernet. Some hard core programmers would use plain old C and CGI. As for PHP Standards, follow the manual and best practices. Get a book on design patterns, especially the one by the Gang Of Four, as these patterns can crossover to the majority of programming languages. There are also plenty of MVC (Model-View-Controller) frameworks such as cakePHP and Symphony. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PHP Standards
I haven't had time to look into other frameworks but make sure to check out Zend as well. It's at version 1.5.2. at this time and it has a nice built-in templating system. On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 10:05 AM, James Jeffery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are a number of ways to get tasks done on the intnernet. Some hard core programmers would use plain old C and CGI. As for PHP Standards, follow the manual and best practices. Get a book on design patterns, especially the one by the Gang Of Four, as these patterns can crossover to the majority of programming languages. There are also plenty of MVC (Model-View-Controller) frameworks such as cakePHP and Symphony. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PHP Standards
Thanks for all the tips folks, very useful. In response to Michael, I have just escaped the large corporate, global enterprise world that seems to fund much of the IT work done and in my experience most such organisations are only just now waking up to the concept and benefits of open source. My ex-organisation for example tended to code either in ASP or .NET for small / medium scale or some flavour of Java for portals and heavy transaction stuff so I had no experience or libraries of PHP. Upon my excape, pausing only to don my hopelessly optimistic hat I went looking for a PHP site; something similar to the sites we all use that show how semantic mark-up should be used; or how good quality CSS can make site look good. Even poor old JavaScript thanks to gentlemen ( I use the word carelessly) like Jeremy Keith are busy helping our communities to play nicely with the DOM; which left just the back-end. The problem is that right now unless we have one or two clearly signposted places where people can learn to do the right thing, young new programmers or even old f***s like me will get what help they can from the net and libraries, as I am sure you may have noticed such sites, books and courses are not always of the highest quality. Ian (Freelancing with a grin - ex Head Of Web Strategy BT Global Services) - Original Message - From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 4:02 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] PHP Standards I am guessing that PHP is much like JavaScript in that a lot of what is floating about is either poor or pooh the result of all the good programmes stending their time on ASP or J2EE Why woul you think the good programmers spend their time and ASP or J2EE? Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Designer wrote: I think that it's basically your responsibility Ian, in that there are many sources of snippets available and if you use them you just validate the generated code and put right what is wrong in the php. Then, you check for best practice too . . . Bob Ian Chamberlain wrote: Fingers crossed this is not too far off topic; being a newby to PHP; any clues where I can find how-to's, snippets, libraries or even application suites built from PHP that are built to a good minimum standard please. I am guessing that PHP is much like JavaScript in that a lot of what is floating about is either poor or pooh the result of all the good programmes stending their time on ASP or J2EE. Thanks Ian *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PHP Standards
Hey Ian, Sorry for coming in late in this thread, but I would like to recommend the php.net site and their mailing lists as well. I am a subscriber to a few of their lists and am just learning the language, but the people who post to the php-general list are some of the most knowledgeable people I have run across. There are a few of the core programmers that post to that list as well. I would highly recommend joining, and watching the list for a few days. Or jump right in and start working on a project. The most simple form of which is a simple Hello world! script. Do something like this: ?PHP $hi = Hello; $earth = World; $time = time(); $currentTime = date(H:i:s M-d-y, $time); echo $hi $earth! it is $currentTime; ? Just something that you could play with :) On May 20, 2008, at 5:35 AM, Ian Chamberlain wrote: Thanks for all the tips folks, very useful. In response to Michael, I have just escaped the large corporate, global enterprise world that seems to fund much of the IT work done and in my experience most such organisations are only just now waking up to the concept and benefits of open source. My ex-organisation for example tended to code either in ASP or .NET for small / medium scale or some flavour of Java for portals and heavy transaction stuff so I had no experience or libraries of PHP. Upon my excape, pausing only to don my hopelessly optimistic hat I went looking for a PHP site; something similar to the sites we all use that show how semantic mark-up should be used; or how good quality CSS can make site look good. Even poor old JavaScript thanks to gentlemen ( I use the word carelessly) like Jeremy Keith are busy helping our communities to play nicely with the DOM; which left just the back-end. The problem is that right now unless we have one or two clearly signposted places where people can learn to do the right thing, young new programmers or even old f***s like me will get what help they can from the net and libraries, as I am sure you may have noticed such sites, books and courses are not always of the highest quality. Ian (Freelancing with a grin - ex Head Of Web Strategy BT Global Services) - Original Message - From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 4:02 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] PHP Standards I am guessing that PHP is much like JavaScript in that a lot of what is floating about is either poor or pooh the result of all the good programmes stending their time on ASP or J2EE Why woul you think the good programmers spend their time and ASP or J2EE? Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Designer wrote: I think that it's basically your responsibility Ian, in that there are many sources of snippets available and if you use them you just validate the generated code and put right what is wrong in the php. Then, you check for best practice too . . . Bob Ian Chamberlain wrote: Fingers crossed this is not too far off topic; being a newby to PHP; any clues where I can find how-to's, snippets, libraries or even application suites built from PHP that are built to a good minimum standard please. I am guessing that PHP is much like JavaScript in that a lot of what is floating about is either poor or pooh the result of all the good programmes stending their time on ASP or J2EE. Thanks Ian *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Jason Pruim Raoset Inc. Technology Manager MQC Specialist 3251 132nd ave Holland, MI, 49424-9337 www.raoset.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join
Re: [WSG] PHP Standards
I am guessing that PHP is much like JavaScript in that a lot of what is floating about is either poor or pooh the result of all the good programmes stending their time on ASP or J2EE Why woul you think the good programmers spend their time and ASP or J2EE? Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Designer wrote: I think that it's basically your responsibility Ian, in that there are many sources of snippets available and if you use them you just validate the generated code and put right what is wrong in the php. Then, you check for best practice too . . . Bob Ian Chamberlain wrote: Fingers crossed this is not too far off topic; being a newby to PHP; any clues where I can find how-to's, snippets, libraries or even application suites built from PHP that are built to a good minimum standard please. I am guessing that PHP is much like JavaScript in that a lot of what is floating about is either poor or pooh the result of all the good programmes stending their time on ASP or J2EE. Thanks Ian *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PHP Standards
Hi Ian You may want to check out some pre-existing PHP coding standards: http://pear.php.net/manual/en/standards.php and the incomplete http://pear.php.net/manual/en/pear2cs.php http://framework.zend.com/manual/en/coding-standard.html Both PEAR and Zend Framework are Open source repositories of PHP code, written to their respective standards, and well documented. For less organised code, try http://www.phpclasses.org Ray At 01:32 AM 17/05/2008, Ian Chamberlain wrote: Fingers crossed this is not too far off topic; being a newby to PHP; any clues where I can find how-to's, snippets, libraries or even application suites built from PHP that are built to a good minimum standard please. I am guessing that PHP is much like JavaScript in that a lot of what is floating about is either poor or pooh the result of all the good programmes stending their time on ASP or J2EE. Thanks Ian *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] PHP Standards
The php site - php.net is always a good place to start for php There are often some good snippets to be found in user comments too Its not as good as it was a couple of years ago though, as they seem to have removed a lot of useful stuff that you could do in pure php because they can now be done by extensions (often needing php to be recompiled to install - very annoying!) Still a good place to start though... *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PHP Standards
I think that it's basically your responsibility Ian, in that there are many sources of snippets available and if you use them you just validate the generated code and put right what is wrong in the php. Then, you check for best practice too . . . Bob Ian Chamberlain wrote: Fingers crossed this is not too far off topic; being a newby to PHP; any clues where I can find how-to's, snippets, libraries or even application suites built from PHP that are built to a good minimum standard please. I am guessing that PHP is much like JavaScript in that a lot of what is floating about is either poor or pooh the result of all the good programmes stending their time on ASP or J2EE. Thanks Ian *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PHP Standards
On May 16, 2008, at 11:32 AM, Ian Chamberlain wrote: Fingers crossed this is not too far off topic; being a newby to PHP; any clues where I can find how-to's, snippets, libraries or even application suites built from PHP that are built to a good minimum standard please. I am guessing that PHP is much like JavaScript in that a lot of what is floating about is either poor or pooh the result of all the good programmes stending their time on ASP or J2EE. Thanks Ian Seems like this may be a ways OT, and you may be better off consulting one of the PHP lists, but... Are you asking about PHP Standards or (X)HTML Standards within the context of PHP? Even the sloppiest of PHP (or any server-side scripting) can deliver impeccable standards-compliant markup, and conversely even the most carefully crafted PHP can deliver the most hideous tag soup. Though I think you will find that following best practices will be mutually reinforcing. If you're interested in PHP Coding Standards, a Google search will open the door to a wealth of information, and there are PHP mailing lists as well. For (X)HTML Standards, this list is an extraordinarily useful resource, and if you spend a little time with the archive you can find many useful links. good luck, Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PHP Standards
On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 4:32 PM, Ian Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fingers crossed this is not too far off topic; being a newby to PHP; any clues where I can find how-to's, snippets, libraries or even application suites built from PHP that are built to a good minimum standard please. There's a good ongoing thread in the Sitepoint PHP forum filled with best practices: http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=456441 -- - Matthew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PHP Standards
On Sat, May 17, 2008 at 3:32 AM, Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you asking about PHP Standards or (X)HTML Standards within the context of PHP? Even the sloppiest of PHP (or any server-side scripting) can deliver impeccable standards-compliant markup, and conversely even the most carefully crafted PHP can deliver the most hideous tag soup. Though I think you will find that following best practices will be mutually reinforcing. If you're interested in PHP Coding Standards, a Google search will open the door to a wealth of information, and there are PHP mailing lists as well. For (X)HTML Standards, this list is an extraordinarily useful resource, and if you spend a little time with the archive you can find many useful links. good luck, Andrew Andrew, good point. Generating web standards-compliant (X)HTML with PHP is one thing, and writing re-usable code is another. If I could make a small plug on behalf of the latter - please people, take the time to document your code properly. The life/job/sanity you save may be your own. Best regards, Andrew -- --- Andrew Boyd http://onblogging.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PHP Standards
Hi Using both Tidy (1) and HTML Purifier (2) can improve tag soup no end -- although even they have their limits. They also add a bit to processing time, especially HP as it is written in PHP - you can solve that issue with page caching, though. (1) php.net/tidy (2) htmlpurifier.org HTH James On Sat, 17 May 2008 09:56:25 am Andrew Boyd wrote: On Sat, May 17, 2008 at 3:32 AM, Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you asking about PHP Standards or (X)HTML Standards within the context of PHP? Even the sloppiest of PHP (or any server-side scripting) can deliver impeccable standards-compliant markup, and conversely even the most carefully crafted PHP can deliver the most hideous tag soup. Though I think you will find that following best practices will be mutually reinforcing. If you're interested in PHP Coding Standards, a Google search will open the door to a wealth of information, and there are PHP mailing lists as well. For (X)HTML Standards, this list is an extraordinarily useful resource, and if you spend a little time with the archive you can find many useful links. good luck, Andrew Andrew, good point. Generating web standards-compliant (X)HTML with PHP is one thing, and writing re-usable code is another. If I could make a small plug on behalf of the latter - please people, take the time to document your code properly. The life/job/sanity you save may be your own. Best regards, Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
