Re: [WSG] best way to approach markup of an address
Andrew Krespanis wrote: picky type=semantics The method I use to decide on the appropriate use of dl is to say 'equals' in between the dt and each dd. being ultra picky, then, even what the W3C suggest at the end of http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/lists.html#h-10.3 is wrong Another application of DL, for example, is for marking up dialogues, with each DT naming a speaker, and each DD containing his or her words. 'Juliet equals Romeo, oh Romeo...' nope -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best way to approach markup of an address
Another application of DL, for example, is for marking up dialogues, with each DT naming a speaker, and each DD containing his or her words. 'Juliet equals Romeo, oh Romeo...' nope That example has been cited often for an instance where W3C got it wrong. or not. Anyways, a dialogue is definitely not a place for a definition list. By the name definition itself things should be clear. Perhaps W3C should come up with a new element for such uses (or the developer can create is own xHTML module, but, like, who cares?). Prabhath http://nidahas.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] best way to approach markup of an address
Prabhath Sirisena Anyways, a dialogue is definitely not a place for a definition list. By the name definition itself things should be clear. Perhaps W3C should come up with a new element for such uses (or the developer can create is own xHTML module, but, like, who cares?). Until we can use a dialog element, and as long as we havee to ensure that pages work in current browsers using HTML 4.01 or compatible XHTML 1.0, developers will follow the lead of the W3C's examples, to mark up the infinitely complex real world content using the limited set of available elements. P Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best way to approach markup of an address
I've one question, whats wrong with a small header and a paragraph of formatted text? On 5/26/05, Patrick Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Prabhath Sirisena Anyways, a dialogue is definitely not a place for a definition list. By the name definition itself things should be clear. Perhaps W3C should come up with a new element for such uses (or the developer can create is own xHTML module, but, like, who cares?). Until we can use a dialog element, and as long as we havee to ensure that pages work in current browsers using HTML 4.01 or compatible XHTML 1.0, developers will follow the lead of the W3C's examples, to mark up the infinitely complex real world content using the limited set of available elements. P Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Rowan Lewis (AKA. The Wolf) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best way to approach markup of an address
On May 25, 2005, at 8:32 PM, Andrew Krespanis wrote: On 5/24/05, Ben Curtis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: dl class=postalAddress dtCanada/dt dd class=companyIn The Game, Inc./dd dd class=divisionCustomer Service/dd dd class=street1135 West Beaver Creek Road Box #604/dd dd class=cityRichmond Hill/dd dd class=stateON/dd dd class=postalCodeL4B 1C0/dd /dl picky type=semantics I think that one would have to qualify as improper use of a dl. The method I use to decide on the appropriate use of dl is to say 'equals' in between the dt and each dd. ... /picky Agreed that it's imperfect, and your comment is not terribly picky -- this is an ambiguous topic at best. A) I was merely supporting another's suggestion of using such markup, and b) I haven't ventured much into this space and haven't come up with something semantically closer to what I want that allows me to style it the way the designer and client want. I think the stronger way to determine if a definition list should be applied is: in your group of related elements, are they all equal players that relate in the same way to a single item or term? You choose a narrow definition of definition so that your relate in the same way is always equals. I have chosen to be a bit more broad, and have used dls to create breadcrumbs and other subnav blocks, where each element in the list relates to a title for the list that I often hide. I think in the future I may do something more akin to this: div class=subnav h2subnav stuff/h2 ul lia href=here.htmlHere/a/li lia href=there.htmlThere/a/li lia href=somewhere.htmlSomewhere Else/a/li /ul /div ...which seems more correct, though less novel than the dl did when I first started using it. Thanks, Andrew. -- Ben Curtis : webwright bivia : a personal web studio http://www.bivia.com v: (818) 507-6613 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best way to approach markup of an address
On 5/24/05, Ben Curtis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: dl class=postalAddress dtCanada/dt dd class=companyIn The Game, Inc./dd dd class=divisionCustomer Service/dd dd class=street1135 West Beaver Creek Road Box #604/dd dd class=cityRichmond Hill/dd dd class=stateON/dd dd class=postalCodeL4B 1C0/dd /dl picky type=semantics I think that one would have to qualify as improper use of a dl. The method I use to decide on the appropriate use of dl is to say 'equals' in between the dt and each dd. Now let's apply that to your use: 'Canada equals In The Game, Inc' ...no it doesn't 'Canada equals Customer Service' ...no it doesn't 'Canada equals ON' ...ummm, the other way around, perhaps. and so on. /picky Andrew. --- http://leftjustified.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best way to approach markup of an address
Andrew and all sorry about jeopardy quoting. I'm leaving the below in for context This is the ideal situation for a microformat, an emerging and exciting way of adding richer semantics to HTML within the existing standard http://developers.technorati.com/wiki/MicroFormats The hCard (based on the IETF vCard format) may well suit your purposes. Based on my experience at South by Southwest, and the recent WWW2005 where I was involved in the Microformats Developer Day, I believe this is going to be significant. Tantek Çelik, formerly at Microsoft (IE5 for Mac), now at Technorati, is one of the drivers of microformats, along with Eric Meyer. Both will be speaking at Web Essentials later in the year, and I've little doubt Microformats will be on the agenda there. John On 26/05/2005, at 1:32 PM, Andrew Krespanis wrote: On 5/24/05, Ben Curtis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: dl class=postalAddress dtCanada/dt dd class=companyIn The Game, Inc./dd dd class=divisionCustomer Service/dd dd class=street1135 West Beaver Creek Road Box #604/dd dd class=cityRichmond Hill/dd dd class=stateON/dd dd class=postalCodeL4B 1C0/dd /dl picky type=semantics I think that one would have to qualify as improper use of a dl. The method I use to decide on the appropriate use of dl is to say 'equals' in between the dt and each dd. Now let's apply that to your use: 'Canada equals In The Game, Inc' ...no it doesn't 'Canada equals Customer Service' ...no it doesn't 'Canada equals ON' ...ummm, the other way around, perhaps. and so on. /picky Andrew. --- http://leftjustified.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://www.westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best way to approach markup of an address
So, is this example 'wrong' ? dl dtCAMELFORD OFFICE:/dt dd20 Market Place/dd ddCamelford/dd ddCornwall/dd ddPL32 9PD/dd ddTEL 01840 212938/dd ddFAX 01840 213596/dd /dl It's what I generally use for the contact address of whatever business site I'm producing. It has the advantage of allowing the dt which, with appropriate CSS formatiing, makes for a nice display of the information. (Please tell me it's OK :-) Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best way to approach markup of an address
Nothing 'wrong' with that I don't think. I think that the street address should probably only be contained within a single dd, though (since it is a single entity). Lines could be broken with br / as appropraite. I think it would then be appropraite to wrap the inner text of each dd with an address too, so you have: dl dtCAMELFORD OFFICE:/dt dd20 Market Placebr / ddCamelfordbr / ddCornwall/dd ddPL32 9PD/dd ddTEL 01840 212938/dd ddFAX 01840 213596/dd /dl The WHATWG Web Apps draft has an expanded definition for address which seems to be semantically identical to the existing HTML4 spec, but provides a more verbose explaination: http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-address On 5/23/05, designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, is this example 'wrong' ? dl dtCAMELFORD OFFICE:/dt dd20 Market Place/dd ddCamelford/dd ddCornwall/dd ddPL32 9PD/dd ddTEL 01840 212938/dd ddFAX 01840 213596/dd /dl It's what I generally use for the contact address of whatever business site I'm producing. It has the advantage of allowing the dt which, with appropriate CSS formatiing, makes for a nice display of the information. (Please tell me it's OK :-) Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- http://www.ben-ward.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best way to approach markup of an address
Apologies - I hit send too soon and the example was wrong. I meant that you could end up with this: dl dtCAMELFORD OFFICE:/dt ddaddress20 Market Placebr / Camelfordbr / Cornwallbr / PL32 9PD/address/dd ddTEL address01840 212938/address/dd ddFAX address01840 213596/address/dd /dl I might also be inclined to put semantic class names on each of those addresses (such as street-address, telephone, fax. In the future, this would allow you to use CSS to generate the Tel and Fax prefixes for you, or insert an appropriate icon graphic etc. Ben On 5/23/05, Ben Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nothing 'wrong' with that I don't think. I think that the street address should probably only be contained within a single dd, though (since it is a single entity). Lines could be broken with br / as appropraite. I think it would then be appropraite to wrap the inner text of each dd with an address too, so you have: dl dtCAMELFORD OFFICE:/dt dd20 Market Placebr / ddCamelfordbr / ddCornwall/dd ddPL32 9PD/dd ddTEL 01840 212938/dd ddFAX 01840 213596/dd /dl The WHATWG Web Apps draft has an expanded definition for address which seems to be semantically identical to the existing HTML4 spec, but provides a more verbose explaination: http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-address On 5/23/05, designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, is this example 'wrong' ? dl dtCAMELFORD OFFICE:/dt dd20 Market Place/dd ddCamelford/dd ddCornwall/dd ddPL32 9PD/dd ddTEL 01840 212938/dd ddFAX 01840 213596/dd /dl It's what I generally use for the contact address of whatever business site I'm producing. It has the advantage of allowing the dt which, with appropriate CSS formatiing, makes for a nice display of the information. (Please tell me it's OK :-) Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- http://www.ben-ward.co.uk -- http://www.ben-ward.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best way to approach markup of an address
On Sun, 22 May 2005 22:30:53 +0100, Ben Ward wrote: Lea - I think the problematic part of the address / element as described in Geoff's link is the part reading authorship for the current document. Yes, *after* I posted (typical) I went and had a further look around. The HTML4 specs are more restrictive. I think the wording is a little un-useful and requires 'creative interpretation' to think that an actual street address can go in there at all, but I'm known for that anyway ;) Its... interesting... that the spec defines ADDRESS as an inline item. I would have thought its internal structure perfect for structure such as a Definition List. Lea ~ announcement for June Brisbane meeting observed in the wild! Let us know if you didn't get a copy and were expecting one! -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/ Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web Design Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best way to approach markup of an address
On 22 May 2005 at 15:57, Bruce Gilbert wrote: for an address, which way is best address 1st linebr / 2nd linebr / 3rd linebr / /address or address1st line/address address2nd line/address address3rd line/address Hello Bruce, I do actually not know the DTD, but the second version declares three adresses. So the first version should be used. Or your '2st line' means a second address, then the second version (but you say 'for an address'). Best Regards Juergen Auer http://www.sql-und-xml.de/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best way to approach markup of an address
I would go for the first one, since in this I think the br / is given semantic value as a separator (even though, technically the element has zero semantic value). The first set of markup would by default display a nice, multi-line formatted address in all browsers and could be formatted into a comma-separated, single line address using CSS. The second is definately wrong since it describes three separate addresses. I think it's one of the increasingly rare situations where br / is the correct element. Although, if being sickeningly pedantic you could argue that the lines should be formatted as an ordered list. I'm not sure that you can legally wrap an ol in an address though. Ben On 5/22/05, Bruce Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: for an address, which way is best address 1st linebr / 2nd linebr / 3rd linebr / /address or address1st line/address address2nd line/address address3rd line/address TIA! -- ::Bruce:: ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- http://www.ben-ward.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best way to approach markup of an address
On Mon, 23 May 2005 06:48:55 +1000, Geoff Deering wrote: The first is correct, but address should only be used when referencing the author of a document. http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html-spec/html-spec_5.html#SEC5.5.3 It's not used for general contact information, which is kind of waste of a good element. Happily, both of the examples you cited contradict you. Do put street address in ADDRESS tags :) warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/ Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web Design Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best way to approach markup of an address
Lea - I think the problematic part of the address / element as described in Geoff's link is the part reading authorship for the current document. Yes, wrapping a street address is correct. However, it specifies that the address must be related directly to the document (e.g. the author's or owner organisations address). You can't, apparently, use it to mark up arbitrary addresses in a page. My interpretation from that link (contrary from what I previously believed) you couldn't markup the address of your companies resellers (for instance, you have a list of them on a single page) with the address element as their address isn't related to the authorship of the document. I do agree with Geoff that this is something of a waste of an element. Ben On 5/22/05, Lea de Groot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 23 May 2005 06:48:55 +1000, Geoff Deering wrote: The first is correct, but address should only be used when referencing the author of a document. http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html-spec/html-spec_5.html#SEC5.5.3 It's not used for general contact information, which is kind of waste of a good element. Happily, both of the examples you cited contradict you. Do put street address in ADDRESS tags :) warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/ Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web Design Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- http://www.ben-ward.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best way to approach markup of an address
Geoff Deering wrote: The first is correct, but address should only be used when referencing the author of a document. Arguably, though, if these are the contact details of the company whose site you're on, then it *is* correct (as they would, in the wider sense, be the authors of their site - and not Bob down in the IT department). So establishing whether or not it's correct obviously depends on context, which Bruce didn't provide in his question. http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html-spec/html-spec_5.html#SEC5.5.3 Should we not be looking at HTML4, rather than 3? http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/global.html#h-7.5.6 -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best way to approach markup of an address
Lea de Groot wrote: On Mon, 23 May 2005 06:48:55 +1000, Geoff Deering wrote: The first is correct, but address should only be used when referencing the author of a document. http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html-spec/html-spec_5.html#SEC5.5.3 It's not used for general contact information, which is kind of waste of a good element. Happily, both of the examples you cited contradict you. Do put street address in ADDRESS tags :) warmly, Lea What I meant was that it is not used for general contact information as in using it for any sort of address. It is specifically for the contact of the person responsible for that document. The *ADDRESS* element is not appropriate for all postal and e-mail addresses; it should be reserved for providing such information about the contact people for the document. see http://htmlhelp.com/reference/html40/block/address.html which is probably a much better reference. That is the semantic meaning of address on a web page. Regards Geoff Deering ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best way to approach markup of an address
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Geoff Deering wrote: The first is correct, but address should only be used when referencing the author of a document. Arguably, though, if these are the contact details of the company whose site you're on, then it *is* correct (as they would, in the wider sense, be the authors of their site - and not Bob down in the IT department). So establishing whether or not it's correct obviously depends on context, which Bruce didn't provide in his question. Yes, it can be anyone responsible for the content on those pages, such as the address of the real estate agent on a house for sale page, but I couldn't use it (correctly) to make a list of addresses of places I visited during my holidays, whatever. In other words, if you use the address element on a web page, that is telling a parser that that is the contact address information associated with the content of that document. Thanks for the HTML4 reference. Regards Geoff Deering ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
