Re: [WSG] doing things right
Bob Schwartz wrote: That's what I thought, but a few days ago someone made a snide remark about them on a test page I had put up, so I just thought I'd double check. Was it because css was being used to indicate a cell was selected when there was no data there (nbsp)? I'm glad you brought this up because I've just realized I have done the same thing with a calendar showing dates available. I've used css to indicate availability when the actual data tells me nothing. Kind Regards -- Chris Price Choctaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.choctaw.co.uk Tel. 01524 825 245 Mob. 0777 451 4488 Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder while Excellence is in the Hand of the Professional ~~~ -+- Sent on behalf of Choctaw Media Ltd -+- ~~~ Choctaw Media Limited is a company registered in England and Wales with company number 04627649 Registered Office: Lonsdale Partners, Priory Close, St Mary's Gate, Lancaster LA1 1XB United Kingdom *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
Chris, Also, from you(?) (has been fixed), but there was a reference from someone else as to the need for all the nbsp's that populate the empty cells. Bob Schwartz wrote: That's what I thought, but a few days ago someone made a snide remark about them on a test page I had put up, so I just thought I'd double check. Was it because css was being used to indicate a cell was selected when there was no data there (nbsp)? I'm glad you brought this up because I've just realized I have done the same thing with a calendar showing dates available. I've used css to indicate availability when the actual data tells me nothing. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
So, according the the site Georg posted, the world's most used browser does not support the empty-cells property. In light of that bit of news, would tdnbsp;/td still be considered the wrong answer? Shelley Purvis wrote: No, they should be marked up as: tdnbsp;/td Bzzzt - wrong answer -- the nbsp; is meaningless. Reasoning: if you don't put a holder into the cell and you select a border (or not) the cell border won't show on this cell as without content the cell collapses. Uh, that's why CSS provides the empty-cells property: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/tables.html#propdef-empty-cells *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
Shelley Purvis wrote: No, they should be marked up as: tdnbsp;/td Bzzzt - wrong answer -- the nbsp; is meaningless. Meaningless under certain definitions but completely harmless. Besides, an empty cell is already meaningless. Attack the very notion if you're truly concerned about a semantic table. In any case it's certainly unambiguous and processable by csv. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
Bob Schwartz wrote: In light of that bit of news, would tdnbsp;/td still be considered the wrong answer? pony warning Of course! You should _always_ follow standard, even when it doesn't work... ...but, if reality kicks in, then you _can_ use td!--[if IE]nbsp;![endif]--/td and apply the empty-cells property for compliant browsers, and maybe get away with it ;-) /pony warning The answer is simple: use standards as far as they get you, and then add whatever is necessary to make it work. I don't know if there is any working alternatives to tdnbsp;/td for IE/win, so I would simply use it until someone comes up with a better - and working - solution. Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
Barney Carroll wrote: Meaningless under certain definitions but completely harmless. Besides, an empty cell is already meaningless. Excuse me? In any DB (or programming language) I use, a null value is *not* equal or equivalent to a space character. In any case it's certainly unambiguous and processable by csv. It might be visually inconsequential, but if the displayed table is intended to be imported into some other application, then I'd say it's definitely important not to introduce fabricated content solely for display purposes. YMMV, -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com opinion: webtuitive.blogspot.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
Hassan Schroeder wrote: Excuse me? In any DB (or programming language) I use, a null value is *not* equal or equivalent to a space character. Wo! Well said, Hassan. You're right, a string to replace null values is significant. I take back my earlier point - a character could be introduced with JS, I suppose. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
Barney Carroll wrote: Wo! Well said, Hassan. You're right, a string to replace null values is significant. I take back my earlier point - a character could be introduced with JS, I suppose. How is that any different? The resulting document is the same. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
David Dorward wrote: Barney Carroll wrote: Wo! Well said, Hassan. You're right, a string to replace null values is significant. I take back my earlier point - a character could be introduced with JS, I suppose. How is that any different? The resulting document is the same. If somebody's copying and pasting HTML into a database, spaces in supposedly empty cells is the least of your worries. If someone really wants to implement this, I'd have the source document as XML or CSV. Use XSLT to turn it into HTML, have the javascript load only on HTML web pages on the internet, client-side (sorry if I sound patronising, I have difficulty expressing these things without spelling them out). But I'm no expert. I don't actually know any XSLT, and I'm not entirely sure of myself when I say using HTML as the master source for conversion into other data files is such a bad idea. I just think that if you have the need and means to do that, you wouldn't be drawing direct from HTML in the first place - HTML would be the last step of presentation of that data for web, in my mind - you'd access a purer version or at least use a parsing tool before putting it into anything else. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
David Dorward wrote: Barney Carroll wrote: Wo! Well said, Hassan. You're right, a string to replace null values is significant. I take back my earlier point - a character could be introduced with JS, I suppose. How is that any different? The resulting document is the same. FWIW I don't agree, the content layer would be *clean*. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
Barney Carroll wrote: David Dorward wrote: Barney Carroll wrote: Wo! Well said, Hassan. You're right, a string to replace null values is significant. I take back my earlier point - a character could be introduced with JS, I suppose. How is that any different? The resulting document is the same. If somebody's copying and pasting HTML into a database It shouldn't matter what is being done with the data. The data provided should be free of junk used for presentational effect, so that it can be used by any user agent without having to work around presentational hacks. spaces in supposedly empty cells is the least of your worries. If someone really wants to implement this, I'd have the source document as XML or CSV. Use XSLT to turn it into HTML, have the javascript load only on HTML web pages on the internet, client-side (sorry if I sound patronising, I have difficulty expressing these things without spelling them out). Intranet? Where did this start being limited to an intranet? But I'm no expert. I don't actually know any XSLT, and I'm not entirely sure of myself when I say using HTML as the master source for conversion into other data files is such a bad idea. I just think that if you have the need and means to do that, you wouldn't be drawing direct from HTML in the first place - HTML would be the last step of presentation of that data for web But HTML is not a presentation language, it describes structure / semantics. in my mind - you'd access a purer version or at least use a parsing tool before putting it into anything else. Why should a parsing tool have to have a special case to interpret a non-breaking space as non-data? -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
Thierry Koblentz wrote: How is that any different? The resulting document is the same. FWIW I don't agree, the content layer would be *clean*. So the user agent gets clean content providing it doesn't support JavaScript. Great. Now all we have to do is make sure that no user agent supports JavaScript and everyone will get a clean DOM. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
David Dorward wrote: Intranet? Where did this start being limited to an intranet? ... But HTML is not a presentation language, it describes structure / semantics. Internet, David. Honestly, HTML may be very nice indeed, but I'd strongly advise against it for general purpose data-handling. Are you honestly going to write these things in HTML, and for purposes other than the internet? I honestly can't conceive of this. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
Barney Carroll wrote: David Dorward wrote: Intranet? Where did this start being limited to an intranet? ... But HTML is not a presentation language, it describes structure / semantics. Internet, David. Sorry, somehow I misread that. Honestly, HTML may be very nice indeed, but I'd strongly advise against it for general purpose data-handling. Its a language for marking up documents. Sometimes documents have tables of data in them. Why shouldn't a user agent (no matter if it is a graphical browser, or a screen reader, or a bot that is extracting the data to perform some calculations on it, or anything else) be given semantically and structurally correct data? As an author, I write documents. Other people then read them, what they read them with is outside my control. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
Barney Carroll wrote: Internet, David. Honestly, HTML may be very nice indeed, but I'd strongly advise against it for general purpose data-handling. Are you honestly going to write these things in HTML, and for purposes other than the internet? When you say purposes other than the internet I'm guessing you mean display in a browser. But even with standard forms, let alone the ever-increasing use of AJAX-based interaction, displayed data may be occupying *one point* (not the end) of a multi-stage transaction -- hence my interest in maintaining data integrity. YMMV! -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com opinion: webtuitive.blogspot.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
No, they should be marked up as: tdnbsp;/td Reasoning: if you don't put a holder into the cell and you select a border (or not) the cell border won't show on this cell as without content the cell collapses. Hense the nbsp; is the cell packer that will hold this empty cell open. S [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/03/2007 9:15:37 a.m. Someone made a comment the other day about my empty table cells which are marked as such; tdnbsp;/td Should they be only: td/td *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
That's what I thought, but a few days ago someone made a snide remark about them on a test page I had put up, so I just thought I'd double check. No, they should be marked up as: tdnbsp;/td Reasoning: if you don't put a holder into the cell and you select a border (or not) the cell border won't show on this cell as without content the cell collapses. Hense the nbsp; is the cell packer that will hold this empty cell open. S [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/03/2007 9:15:37 a.m. Someone made a comment the other day about my empty table cells which are marked as such; tdnbsp;/td Should they be only: td/td *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
Bob Schwartz skrev: tdnbsp;/td AFAIK this was needed for NN4. /AndersN *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] doing things right
Shelley Purvis wrote: No, they should be marked up as: tdnbsp;/td Bzzzt - wrong answer -- the nbsp; is meaningless. Reasoning: if you don't put a holder into the cell and you select a border (or not) the cell border won't show on this cell as without content the cell collapses. Uh, that's why CSS provides the empty-cells property: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/tables.html#propdef-empty-cells FWIW, -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com opinion: webtuitive.blogspot.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
