RE: [WSG] specifying width of

[Peter Williams]

> From: Joshua Street
> 
> Yeah. I think it's kind of Gmail's fault. You'll note the 
> mailing list signature isn't showing up on my messages, 
> either. I'm sending this message in HTML format in the hope 
> it stays more intact than plain text when the WSG list 
> processes it... 

Been through similar issues on another list,
set the GMail encoding to Default (not UTF8).
Then set it to Plain Text formatting (they
recently added a Rich Text option).

-- 
Peter Williams
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Re: [WSG] Emulating text browser

[heretic]

> Does anyone actually use lynx anymore though

Actually I know someone who uses it on a daily basis, due to an
extremely limited network/bandwidth quota at his workplace.

He can't install a second browser (locked down desktop), and he has to
keep IE set up for sites that don't work without graphics etc. He uses
Lynx via telnet since it's installed on the server, since that
preserves his quota (meaning he can read the morning news without
destroying his quota).

> AFAIK
> links, w3m, and other text browsers are far more popular. All these
> other browsers preserve table structure.

I thought the more recent versions of Lynx supported tables?

cheers,

Ben Buchanan

--
--- 
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
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Re: [WSG] Emulating text browser

[alejandro poch]

Thank you. That's very helpfull. 


Thanks also to everyone who response my question. Gracias


Terrence Wood wrote:


The major gotcha with Operas text view is that it preserves table
(columnar) structure where lynx just runs them all together.


Try a precompiled binary:

http://csant.info/lynx.htm

or a lynx viewer:

http://www.yellowpipe.com/yis/tools/lynx/lynx_viewer.php


kind regards
Terrence Wood.


alejandro poch said:
 


Do anyone knows if the Lynx's browser is something like this
option?
   




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[WSG] XHTML 1.0 Strict better than XHTML 1.0 Transitional?

[Martin Smales]

Hi,

Apologies if I asked a question that was answered before, but I am sick
and tired of having to be stuck between old and new markup, deprecated
elements or not, mixture of structure and presentation in XHTML 1.0
Transitional.

I felt it is time-consuming to go through all that.

This time I want to break the mould and go straight to a strict doctype.
Will a strict doctype help really separate structure and style, and is
now the right time to do so because many browsers support the XHTML 1.0
Strict doctype?

Regards,
Martin
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Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.0 Strict better than XHTML 1.0 Transitional?

[Prabhath Sirisena]

> This time I want to break the mould and go straight to a strict doctype.
> Will a strict doctype help really separate structure and style, and is
> now the right time to do so because many browsers support the XHTML 1.0
> Strict doctype?

You can have presentational markup (or atleast, markup that is
semantically not correct) even with a strict doctype, so it's actually
all about how you use the tool.

But yes, the time is right for Strict. If you don't mind serving it as
text/html ;-)
Check out: http://www.w3.org/2003/01/xhtml-mimetype/content-negotiation

Prabhath
http://nidahas.com
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RE: [WSG] XHTML 1.0 Strict better than XHTML 1.0 Transitional?

[Martin Smales]

> You can have presentational markup (or atleast, markup that is
semantically not correct) even with a strict doctype, so > > it's
actually all about how you use the tool.

Ok, I am thinking in terms of putting an XHTML 1.0 Strict page through
the W3C validator, and hopefully complain of presentational markup in an
HTML document.
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[WSG] Listing images vertically

[Jad Madi]

Hi,
I would like to know whats the standards way to list images Vertical
and Horizental
is there anything against using
 for the vertical listing?
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RE: [WSG] Listing images vertically

[Patrick Lauke]

> Jad Madi

> I would like to know whats the standards way to list images Vertical
> and Horizental
> is there anything against using
>  for the 
> vertical listing?

You've used the magic word twice already in your question...if you're
"listing", that would suggest that you'd want a list...




...


P
__
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
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Re: [WSG] Listing images vertically

[James Ellis]

Hi Jad

Use a display:block; rule on your img - easy & no br's !

Cheers
JamesOn 10/25/05, Jad Madi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi,I would like to know whats the standards way to list images Verticaland Horizentalis there anything against using for the vertical listing?
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RE: [WSG] Radio New Zealand site relaunch

[Ted Drake]

Hi Mike 
I like they way you re-use your gradient graphics  throughout the site. It
keeps the load to a minimum.

On the home page, you have a div with I assume overflow:auto to give the
scrolling daily schedule. When I've done this in the past, the div's
scrolling mechanism over-rode the browser's scrolling behavior. So, when a
person used their scroll-wheel on the mouse the schedule would move before
the page moved.  How did you avoid this?

Some of the green text on green fade is a bit difficult to read, perhaps a
bit more contrast?


On a completely different side note, the photo of Kate Mead on the concert
fm today page is not the most flattering. At least on my screen she is very
pale and cyan, perhaps a bit of New Zealand sun would help.

Nice job. 

Ted Drake
www.tdrake.net


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Mike Brown
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 6:32 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Radio New Zealand site relaunch

http://www.radionz.co.nz

As a disclaimer, I had some involvement with the HTML/CSS templates, but 
even so, I think it's a good example of a site that's nice visually and 
reasonably standards-compliant.

Mike


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Re: [WSG] Radio New Zealand site relaunch

[Head Chief ,CEO - Poseidon Design Studio]

2005/10/25, Ted Drake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Hi Mike
> I like they way you re-use your gradient graphics  throughout the site. It
> keeps the load to a minimum.
>
> On the home page, you have a div with I assume overflow:auto to give the
> scrolling daily schedule. When I've done this in the past, the div's
> scrolling mechanism over-rode the browser's scrolling behavior. So, when a
> person used their scroll-wheel on the mouse the schedule would move before
> the page moved.  How did you avoid this?
>
> Some of the green text on green fade is a bit difficult to read, perhaps a
> bit more contrast?
>
>
> On a completely different side note, the photo of Kate Mead on the concert
> fm today page is not the most flattering. At least on my screen she is very
> pale and cyan, perhaps a bit of New Zealand sun would help.
>
> Nice job.
>
> Ted Drake
> www.tdrake.net
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Mike Brown
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 6:32 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: [WSG] Radio New Zealand site relaunch
>
> http://www.radionz.co.nz
>
> As a disclaimer, I had some involvement with the HTML/CSS templates, but
> even so, I think it's a good example of a site that's nice visually and
> reasonably standards-compliant.
>
> Mike
>
>
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>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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>
>


I like it , nice layout , I had duots about the header but it's fine
too , nice work m8!
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Re: [WSG] Emulating text browser

[Terrence Wood]

I use lynx regularly... and I actually surf with it.


kind regards
Terrence Wood.

email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
phone: +64-4-8033354
mobile: +64-21-120-1234

wsg_alantrik said:
> Does anyone actually use lynx anymore though (except sysadmins who
> haven't realises that VMS is not the lastest thing out there)? AFAIK
> links, w3m, and other text browsers are far more popular. All these
> other browsers preserve table structure.
>
> Alan Trick


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RE: [WSG] Radio New Zealand site relaunch

[John Lewis]

Hi Mike,

I was interested to see that you are using the back-slash hack when
importing your stylesheets, commented as: "Excluding old versions of IE
etc".
I guess what I'm most interested in is how that decision was made? Is it
part of your company's approach/philosophy or was it a choice the client
made/business rule to not show styled pages for these browsers - thus
lowering or containing the cost of the project? The obvious casualties
being IE 5 for Mac and IE5.0.

Cheers,
John


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Brown
Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2005 2:32 p.m.
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Radio New Zealand site relaunch

http://www.radionz.co.nz

As a disclaimer, I had some involvement with the HTML/CSS templates, but
even so, I think it's a good example of a site that's nice visually and
reasonably standards-compliant.

Mike


SIGNIFY LTD :: the logic behind

ph: +64 4 803-3211  |  fax: +64 4 803-3241
mob: +64 0274 885-992 | http://www.signify.co.nz P.O. Box 24-068,
Manners St, Wellington Level 1, 250a Wakefield St, Wellington


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Re: [WSG] Emulating text browser

[Rene Saarsoo]

Alan Trick wrote:

Does anyone actually use lynx anymore though (except sysadmins who
haven't realises that VMS is not the lastest thing out there)? AFAIK
links, w3m, and other text browsers are far more popular. All these
other browsers preserve table structure.


A quick check to the server of my university reveals, they only have
Lynx installed. The another university where I previously were, also
had only lynx in their server. Which means anyone who is locked behind
a text terminal (and there were number of those) are happily reading
their mail with pine and surfing with Lynx.


Ben Buchanan wrote:

I thought the more recent versions of Lynx supported tables?


Yes, Lynx indeed supports tables, but the support is a bit limited.

If the table row fits on a single line on text screen, then the
row is displayed using a nice tabular format. But when there is
too much text in a row, all the cells are displayed on separate lines.

In short, it means that Lynx can quite well handle tables, when they
are used for tabular data, but when it comes to layout tables - forget it.


Here's a lynx screenshot from my homepage (triin.net):

   When we look at only the valid pages, then the XHTML 1.0 Strict has
   climbed from forth place (23 pages) to third (31 pages) and therefore
   switched places with HTML 4.0 Transitional

   CAPTION: Invalid pages

   Document type  Number of pages Change
   HTML 4.01 Transitional 3191-165
   HTML 4.0 Transitional  1485-384
   XHTML 1.0 Transitional 705 +163
   HTML 4.01 Frameset 222 +16
   HTML 3.2   212 -268
   XHTML 1.0 Strict   83  -7
   XHTML 1.1  55  +20

   Figure 1. Changes in the use of DTD-s on invalid pages. The increase
   is marked with green and decrease with red (brighter then green). All
   the other figures in this page use the same colors in exactly the same
   meaning.



Rene Saarsoo
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Re: [WSG] Radio New Zealand site relaunch

[Mike Brown]

John Lewis wrote:

Hi Mike,

I was interested to see that you are using the back-slash hack when
importing your stylesheets, commented as: "Excluding old versions of IE
etc".
I guess what I'm most interested in is how that decision was made? Is it
part of your company's approach/philosophy or was it a choice the client
made/business rule to not show styled pages for these browsers - thus
lowering or containing the cost of the project? The obvious casualties
being IE 5 for Mac and IE5.0.



Hi John

no, that was an informed client choice! We had orginally done the 
templates to look pretty much the same in IE5 (Win and Mac), but during 
the integration phase they decided to not send styles to those browsers.


I think their statistics showed very few visits from those browsers. I 
guess this may be one of the first examples of a major (for NZ) public 
site making the choice not to send styles to those browsers.


Yah for clients prepared to make that decision :)


Mike
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Re: [WSG] XHTML 1.0 Strict better than XHTML 1.0 Transitional?

[Christian Montoya]

On 10/25/05, Martin Smales <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > You can have presentational markup (or atleast, markup that is
> semantically not correct) even with a strict doctype, so > > it's
> actually all about how you use the tool.
>
> Ok, I am thinking in terms of putting an XHTML 1.0 Strict page through
> the W3C validator, and hopefully complain of presentational markup in an
> HTML document.

I say go for it. Put the strict doctype, and make the necessary
changes when you get errors.

--
--
C Montoya
rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com
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Re: [WSG] Radio New Zealand site relaunch

[Andy Kirkwood | Motive]

Hi Mike,

I'm curious as to how the decision regarding browser support came about. What 
did the client perceive the 'benefits' of excluding a particular user-base to 
be? Why not cater to IE5 Mac if the work had already been done?

>no, that was an informed client choice! We had orginally done the templates to 
>look pretty much the same in IE5 (Win and Mac), but during the integration 
>phase they decided to not send styles to those browsers.
>
>I think their statistics showed very few visits from those browsers. I guess 
>this may be one of the first examples of a major (for NZ) public site making 
>the choice not to send styles to those browsers.
>
>Yah for clients prepared to make that decision :)


-- 
Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director

Motive | web.design.integrity
http://www.motive.co.nz
ph: (04) 3 800 800  fx: (04) 970 9693
mob: 021 369 693
93 Rintoul St, Newtown
PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand
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[WSG] Trouble getting 3rd column to extend to footer

[Bruce Gilbert]

hello all,on a site I am working on (http://www.ncpersonalinjurylaw.com/php/Adams.php), my third column (the grey one) isn't extending down to the footer on its own. The third column is being called 'right_col' and the CSS specific to that column is:
#right_col {/*creates right column on page*/width:155px; padding:0 ;margin:0;background-color:#ccc;color:inherit;float:right;}* html div#right_col {/*creates right column on page, only IE sees this*/
width:150px; padding:0 ;margin:0;background-color:#ccc;color:inherit;float:right;}I know that that in itself doesn't tell you much so the full CSS can be located at:
http://www.ncpersonalinjurylaw.com/php/CSS/Global.cssI do want to point out that I was able to achieve equal columns using JS (the PVII equal columns technique), but I would prefer to get this working w/o JS. Also with the equal columns, things got "messed up" when I resized the text.
I have tried adding height :100% to the third columns div without success.Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciative.-- ::Bruce:: 

RE: [WSG] Trouble getting 3rd column to extend to footer

[Paul Noone]

Hi Bruce,
 
Have you considered using to main divs with a background 
pic applied left and right, respectively, to achieve color and then adding your 
columns over that with fixed width? This is the only way I managed to get it to 
work without scripting and seems a common enough technique.
 

  
  
    

    

    

  
  

 
You can see a live example here: 
http://d81314.i50.quadrahosting.com.au/


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce 
GilbertSent: Wednesday, 26 October 2005 7:41 AMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Trouble getting 3rd column to 
extend to footer
hello all,on a site I am working on (http://www.ncpersonalinjurylaw.com/php/Adams.php), my third 
column (the grey one) isn't extending down to the footer on its own. The third 
column is being called 'right_col' and the CSS specific to that column is: 
#right_col {/*creates right column on page*/width:155px; 
padding:0 
;margin:0;background-color:#ccc;color:inherit;float:right;}* 
html div#right_col {/*creates right column on page, only IE sees this*/ 
width:150px; padding:0 
;margin:0;background-color:#ccc;color:inherit;float:right;}I 
know that that in itself doesn't tell you much so the full CSS can be located 
at:http://www.ncpersonalinjurylaw.com/php/CSS/Global.cssI 
do want to point out that I was able to achieve equal columns using JS (the PVII 
equal columns technique), but I would prefer to get this working w/o JS. Also 
with the equal columns, things got "messed up" when I resized the text. 
I have tried adding height :100% to the third columns div without 
success.Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciative.-- ::Bruce:: 

RE: [WSG] Emulating text browser

[Earle Castledine]

> Does anyone actually use lynx anymore though

I also use Lynx via telnet regularly because of "blocked" internet
access. Using Lynx is a nightmare - until you hit a standards-complient
site!

Also, looking at my site stats, I get about 1% of hits from Lynx (though
it is a pretty nerdy site)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of heretic
Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2005 4:54 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Emulating text browser

> Does anyone actually use lynx anymore though

Actually I know someone who uses it on a daily basis, due to an
extremely limited network/bandwidth quota at his workplace.

He can't install a second browser (locked down desktop), and he has to
keep IE set up for sites that don't work without graphics etc. He uses
Lynx via telnet since it's installed on the server, since that preserves
his quota (meaning he can read the morning news without destroying his
quota).

> AFAIK
> links, w3m, and other text browsers are far more popular. All these 
> other browsers preserve table structure.

I thought the more recent versions of Lynx supported tables?

cheers,

Ben Buchanan

--
--- 
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
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Re: [WSG] Radio New Zealand site relaunch

[Terrence Wood]

Andy Kirkwood|Motive said:
> Hi Mike,
>
> I'm curious as to how the decision regarding browser support came about.
> What did the client perceive the 'benefits' of excluding a particular
> user-base to be? Why not cater to IE5 Mac if the work had already been
> done?

The content is still available to any browser, so in that sense no-one is
being excluded.

Granted, it is a curious choice given the work had already been done, but
taking a long term view there will be benefits from the reduced site
maintainence.

I can safely say, from server logs I have access to, the only people using
IE5/Mac in New Zealand are designers/developers testing their (or my)
designs, and you are more likely to come across IE/PC 4 in the wild.


kind regards
Terrence Wood.


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Re: [WSG] Radio New Zealand site relaunch

[Andy Kirkwood | Motive]

Hi Terrence,

My interest in Mike's post is in the client-developer relationship. What swayed 
the client toward excluding Mac IE from stylesheet support could be beneficial 
when considering the merits of such an approach with other standards-aware 
clients. Perhaps the RNZ decision means that Mac IE is now 'browser non grata'.

>The content is still available to any browser, so in that sense no-one is
>being excluded.

Substitute 'user-experience degraded' in place of 'excluded' if you will. 
Unless I have misunderstood Mike, a decision was made to exclude Mac IE users 
*when they had already been 'included'*.

>taking a long term view there will be benefits from the reduced site
>maintainence.

Such as? A 'dead' browser cannot spawn new bugs, once know bugs have been 
addressed, there should be no impact upon website maintenance.

>I can safely say, from server logs I have access to, the only people using
>IE5/Mac in New Zealand are designers/developers testing their (or my)
>designs, and you are more likely to come across IE/PC 4 in the wild.

As you note,' from the server logs you have access to', and browser statistics 
vary depending on the user community--unless you're making direct reference to 
the RNZ website?

Best regards,
 
-- 
Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director

Motive | web.design.integrity
http://www.motive.co.nz
ph: (04) 3 800 800  fx: (04) 970 9693
mob: 021 369 693
93 Rintoul St, Newtown
PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand
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Re: [WSG] Radio New Zealand site relaunch

[Mike Brown]

Andy Kirkwood|Motive wrote:

My interest in Mike's post is in the client-developer relationship. What swayed 
the client toward excluding Mac IE from stylesheet support could be beneficial 
when considering the merits of such an approach with other standards-aware 
clients. Perhaps the RNZ decision means that Mac IE is now 'browser non grata'.



Hi Andy

it was a while ago I did the templates, so was going from memory! I've 
asked RNZ about the decision, but haven't heard back yet. Will let you 
know. It may have been the templates were half, or mostly, done when the 
decision was made.


But from memory it was more of a "philosophical" decision - ie, time to 
move on, as we did with Netscape 4 a while ago.


Mike
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[WSG] mixing and matching vertical and horizontal dropdowns, deep breath, has anyone done it before?

[Ted Drake]

Hi All

I'm plugging away at a dropdown menu that is based on the hybrid dropdowns
ala alistapart: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/hybrid

The second level is horizontal. But, here's the kicker, we'd like to make
the third level a vertical dropdown.  As they say on MTV: pimp my dropdowns.

For those that don't get the reference, it's a tv show, pimp my ride
(http://www.mtv.com/onair/dyn/pimp_my_ride/ ), that does down right stupid,
dope, fresh, something, something alterations to junky cars.

So, has anyone done this or seen this before? I know it's not that novel of
an idea. But you are looking at someone that just spent two hours trying to
style links before I realized I forgot to put the text in  tags. 

I needs me some coffee.  It's a good thing it's free here.

Ta Ta

Ted




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RE: [WSG] Radio New Zealand site relaunch

[Rebecca Cox]

It wouldn't be anything to do with support requirements for the audio content 
on the site? Eg a decision not to worry about Mac support in general, not just 
for layout?

I just did a quick check - on Safari I got the visual layout but when trying to 
get to an audio clip, the browser just downloaded an asf file.

And IE5.2/Mac - no layout and nothing happened when clicking on the audio link.

Cheers all, 
Rebecca

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Brown
Sent: Wednesday, 26 October 2005 2:42 p.m.
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Radio New Zealand site relaunch

Andy Kirkwood|Motive wrote:
> My interest in Mike's post is in the client-developer relationship. What 
> swayed the client toward excluding Mac IE from stylesheet support could be 
> beneficial when considering the merits of such an approach with other 
> standards-aware clients. Perhaps the RNZ decision means that Mac IE is now 
> 'browser non grata'.
> 

Hi Andy

it was a while ago I did the templates, so was going from memory! I've 
asked RNZ about the decision, but haven't heard back yet. Will let you 
know. It may have been the templates were half, or mostly, done when the 
decision was made.

But from memory it was more of a "philosophical" decision - ie, time to 
move on, as we did with Netscape 4 a while ago.

Mike
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[WSG] Web Accessibility Workshops 28 & 29 November 2005 - Canberra

[Steven . Faulkner]

Web Accessibility Workshops
28 & 29 November 2005 - Canberra

These one-day workshops introduce accessibility issues in terms of
Australian policy contexts and internationally recognised requirements. For
further details visit:
http://www.visionaustralia.org.au/info.aspx?page=684

Writing for the Web Workshop
1 December 2005 - Sydney

This practical workshop focuses on enhancing the usability and
accessibility
of your web content and will teach you how to communicate effectively with
your readers.  For further details visit:
http://www.visionaustralia.org.au/info.aspx?page=685




Tania Conlan
Research and Administration Officer

Vision Australia - Accessible Information Solutions
PO Box 860, Hawthorn VIC 3122
454 Glenferrie Road, Kooyong VIC 3144
Ph:  (03) 9864 9249  Fax:  (03) 9864 9370

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.accessibleinfo.org.au
www.visionaustralia.org.au

Vision Australia was formed through the merger of Royal Blind Society, the
Royal Victorian Institute for the Blind, Vision Australia Foundation and
the
National Information and Library Service.
ABN: 67 108 391 831. ACN: 108 391 831


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Re: [WSG] mixing and matching vertical and horizontal dropdowns, deep breath, has anyone done it before?

[Thierry Koblentz]

Ted Drake wrote:
> Hi All
>
> I'm plugging away at a dropdown menu that is based on the hybrid
> dropdowns ala alistapart: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/hybrid
>
> The second level is horizontal. But, here's the kicker, we'd like to
> make the third level a vertical dropdown.  As they say on MTV: pimp
> my dropdowns.
>
> For those that don't get the reference, it's a tv show, pimp my ride
> (http://www.mtv.com/onair/dyn/pimp_my_ride/ ), that does down right
> stupid, dope, fresh, something, something alterations to junky cars.
>
> So, has anyone done this or seen this before? I know it's not that
> novel of an idea. But you are looking at someone that just spent two
> hours trying to style links before I realized I forgot to put the
> text in  tags.

Hi Ted,
I've added more nested lists and a few rules into the orginal page [1] to
popup the grand children.
This is just to give you some pointers, but I'm not planning to modify the
scripts for MSIE to address this extra level (popup + tabbing navigation
through all list items). Should work fine in modern browsers:
http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/dropdown/ted.asp


[1] http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/dropdown/demo.asp


Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com

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