[WSG] Usability in Links

[Bushidodeep]

Hi All,

I've a client wishing to call attention to (2) a: links, in a vertical  
list by simply reversing with the hover color. The a:links are now the  
hover color value and the a:hover is now the a:link color value.
After reviewing the change I found it conflicting with the  
surrounding  a:links, so did some of my flat-mates used for usability  
testing.


Would someone suggest a method that doesn't cause disharmony, or is it  
just nit-picking on our part?


CK









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Re: [WSG] Usability in Links

[Bushidodeep]

Hi,

Following is a link to the site in question.

<http://www.familyhomelessness.org/>





On Jul 18, 2009, at 3:02 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:


On Sat, 18 Jul 2009, Bushidodeep wrote:

I've a client wishing to call attention to (2) a: links, in a  
vertical list by simply reversing with the hover color. The a:links  
are now the hover color value and the a:hover is now the a:link  
color value.
After reviewing the change I found it conflicting with the  
surrounding a:links, so did some of my flat-mates used for  
usability testing.


Would someone suggest a method that doesn't cause disharmony, or is  
it just nit-picking on our part?


  Use different colours.

  (And post a URL so we can see whether there really is a problem.)

--
  Chris F.A. Johnson  <http://cfaj.freeshell.org>
  ===
  Author:
  Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)


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Re: [WSG] Usability in Links

[Bushidodeep]

Hi,

My (our) thoughts, my commission was developing a DRUPAL theme. Having  
not had a hand in the design, the .psd was provided, has stirred some  
questions with usability and accessibility.

I'll address these with the client.

Many Thanks,
CK




On Jul 18, 2009, at 8:42 PM, dwain wrote:

On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 5:09 PM, Bushidodeep   
wrote:

Hi,

Following is a link to the site in question.

<http://www.familyhomelessness.org/>



the way the links are currently set when i hover over the blue link  
that is next to an orange link things get a bit confusing when the  
two links meld in color.


i also checked the color contrast on the links and they do not fair  
well for visitors with color blindness.  you might want to talk with  
your client about this issue, if you feel that it is important  
enough to address.


also, the pointers on the links on the left of the page made me  
think that a fly-out menu was available.  not a critical issue, but  
could also cause some confusion.


cheers,
dwain

--
"Fear of the devil is one way of doubting God.  " - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: [WSG] Usability in Links

[Bushidodeep]

Thanks,

Would you provide url's on organizing links, for reference to the  
client. As that was also disturbing during the site check.




CK




On Jul 19, 2009, at 5:07 AM, Stuart Foulstone wrote:



Hi,

if the different links are in clearly defined different areas there  
should
be little confusion, even with using the same colors reversed.  If  
you mix
them in the same menu, then there's obviously a problem of  
consistency of

the meaning.


However, what you should NOT do, from a usability point of view, is  
have

an external link in the middle of the site navigation menu, i.e.

http://www.homelesschildrenamerica.org/"; title="National
Response" id="dhtml_menu-262">CAMPAIGN TO END CHILD HOMELESSNESS


The link color scheme seems OK from a color-blindness accessibility  
angle,

see:

http://vischeck.com/vischeck/vischeckURL.php?origUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.familyhomelessness.org%2F&simUrl=uploads%2F124800363616183&sensorType=tritanope


On Sat, July 18, 2009 11:09 pm, Bushidodeep wrote:

Hi,

Following is a link to the site in question.

<http://www.familyhomelessness.org/>





On Jul 18, 2009, at 3:02 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:


On Sat, 18 Jul 2009, Bushidodeep wrote:


I've a client wishing to call attention to (2) a: links, in a
vertical list by simply reversing with the hover color. The a:links
are now the hover color value and the a:hover is now the a:link
color value.
After reviewing the change I found it conflicting with the
surrounding a:links, so did some of my flat-mates used for
usability testing.

Would someone suggest a method that doesn't cause disharmony, or is
it just nit-picking on our part?


 Use different colours.

 (And post a URL so we can see whether there really is a problem.)

--
 Chris F.A. Johnson  <http://cfaj.freeshell.org>
 ===
 Author:
 Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)


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Re: [WSG] Usability in Links

[Bushidodeep]

Hi,

I'm also suggesting reordering the hierarchy (Taxonomy) of the  
navigation.



CK





On Jul 19, 2009, at 5:07 AM, Stuart Foulstone wrote:



Hi,

if the different links are in clearly defined different areas there  
should
be little confusion, even with using the same colors reversed.  If  
you mix
them in the same menu, then there's obviously a problem of  
consistency of

the meaning.


However, what you should NOT do, from a usability point of view, is  
have

an external link in the middle of the site navigation menu, i.e.

http://www.homelesschildrenamerica.org/"; title="National
Response" id="dhtml_menu-262">CAMPAIGN TO END CHILD HOMELESSNESS


The link color scheme seems OK from a color-blindness accessibility  
angle,

see:

http://vischeck.com/vischeck/vischeckURL.php?origUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.familyhomelessness.org%2F&simUrl=uploads%2F124800363616183&sensorType=tritanope


On Sat, July 18, 2009 11:09 pm, Bushidodeep wrote:

Hi,

Following is a link to the site in question.

<http://www.familyhomelessness.org/>





On Jul 18, 2009, at 3:02 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:


On Sat, 18 Jul 2009, Bushidodeep wrote:


I've a client wishing to call attention to (2) a: links, in a
vertical list by simply reversing with the hover color. The a:links
are now the hover color value and the a:hover is now the a:link
color value.
After reviewing the change I found it conflicting with the
surrounding a:links, so did some of my flat-mates used for
usability testing.

Would someone suggest a method that doesn't cause disharmony, or is
it just nit-picking on our part?


 Use different colours.

 (And post a URL so we can see whether there really is a problem.)

--
 Chris F.A. Johnson  <http://cfaj.freeshell.org>
 ===
 Author:
 Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)


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[WSG] or CSS3 Border Background

[Bushidodeep]

Hi,

After reading the following article, I ask which is more semantic,  
using the  element with a background or using the CSS3 border  
background property?


C










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Re: [WSG] or CSS3 Border Background

[Bushidodeep]

Hi,

Thanks, SMASH has some good contributions. As with any resource,  
absorb what is useful, reject the useless. Does any

DOM conditional exist for checking CSS3 support in user agents?

C





On Aug 8, 2009, at 7:53 PM, tee wrote:



On Aug 8, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Bushidodeep wrote:


Hi,

After reading the following article, I ask which is more semantic,  
using the  element with a background or using the CSS3 border  
background property?


C


<http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2008/09/09/the-hr-contest-results-download-your-fresh-hr-line-now/ 
>




I never use hr tag, find it unsemantical and redundant. Before CSS3  
is fully supported by all important browsers, the semantic way I use  
is utilizing one of the existing div or type selector.


Site like smashing magazine feeds hype which is unhelpful for web  
standards and accessibility–but this is what the site's purpose is:  
vanity, kitsch and hype. Oops, I hope the site owner isn't a member  
here :-)


However, seeing that HTML 5 has given hr tag  a new purpose:
http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-hr-element
http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#flow-content-0

quote:
The hr element represents a paragraph-level thematic break, e.g. a  
scene change in a story, or a transition to another topic within a  
section of a reference book.



So the decision is  circumstantial, sometime you  use hr, and  
sometimes use CSS 3 border background property.


Then my question, what about those who prefer to stick with XHTML?  
The hr tag is deprecated.


In gassho,
tee




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[WSG] Checking CSS3 Support [ or CSS3 Border Background]

[Bushidodeep]

Hi,

As usual, all the replies to my post have been valuable, providing  
much to think about. Does a JS/DOM script exist for

checking CSS3 support across user-agents?

C


On Aug 9, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Keryx Web wrote:


On 2009-08-09 12:48, Stuart Foulstone wrote:

The hr element represents a paragraph-level thematic break, e.g. a
scene change in a story, or a transition to another topic within a
section of a reference book.


Correct, but rarely useful. The only indication given to users is  
visual. I do not think AT-technologies picks it up.



So the decision is  circumstantial, sometime you  use hr, and
sometimes use CSS 3 border background property.


I've not seen a case in a really long while where an hr would be  
useful, except for debugging.


  deprecated in XHTML and the correct mark-up is to use a  
header

which helps to help define that relationship.


No, it is not. But it is better avoided, as said by many in this  
thread.



--
Keryx Web (Lars Gunther)
http://keryx.se/
http://twitter.com/itpastorn/
http://itpastorn.blogspot.com/


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Re: [WSG] Checking CSS3 Support [ or CSS3 Border Background]

[Bushidodeep]

Hi,

Many Thanks. Just what was desired.

C




On Aug 10, 2009, at 1:20 PM, Ross Bruniges wrote:


http://www.modernizr.com/

From: Bushidodeep 

Does a JS/DOM script exist for checking CSS3 support across user- 
agents?




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Re: [WSG] table inside a dd?

[Bushidodeep]

Hi,

A little late to the thread, but how about:

the contents of the table">
Sample Complex Table

Page
Name
Category
Accessibility Tool Test
Manual Test
JAWS test


Home
Common
4
2
3


Resources Welcome
Resources
6
0


Totals:
10
2
3








On Aug 17, 2009, at 5:27 PM, Tim MacKay wrote:

Thanks Ben and Christian for the replies, & Ben thanks particularly  
for the
links. Based on the accessibility bonuses of the methods you  
suggested I

might opt out of the def list route and use headings.

Thanks again.

Tim

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org  
[mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On

Behalf Of Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
Sent: Monday, 17 August 2009 5:47 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] table inside a dd?

On 17/08/2009 06:18, Tim MacKay wrote:
I am marking up product nutritional information and am thinking of  
doing

it like so:



 The Product 

 Paragraph blurb about the product 





<.etc>Tabular data of the nutritional information







Is nesting the table within the def list valid markup?


Yes.

I'd tend to suggest using headings (or headings inside a list) instead
of a definition list, so that each product has an entry in the  
effective

document outline:

The Product
blurb

Nutritional information
...


More practically, this allows non-mouse users of Opera
(http://www.opera.com/browser/tutorials/nomouse/) or assistive
technology
(http://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Surfs-up/Navigating.htm) to
skip effectively from one product to another, and surfaces the  
products

in assistive technology heading lists.

Some assistive technology does have some support for definition lists,
but it's not especially pretty, which isn't surprising given the HTML
spec suggests using the element for "terms" and "descriptions", and  
also

for dialogs:

http://www.webaim.org/discussion/mail_message.php?id=11226

--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis


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Re: [WSG] Accessible Forms

[Bushidodeep]

All,

The following article shed light on both mark-up and styling.





It should help.


C,




On Aug 19, 2009, at 1:11 PM, Erickson, Kevin (DOE) wrote:


Wow! So what is the best practice???

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of Steve Green
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 3:59 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Accessible Forms

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of Tom Livingston
Sent: 19 August 2009 20:10
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessible Forms

The reason I use this was because I found an easy way to style forms
that included the broader compatibility for the clickability of labels
for focus with the flexibility of layout with the inclusion of a span
like:


First Name



I use this a lot for putting the label text next to the input, instead
of stacking, and it gives easy control of this layout.

Any info on the wrapping of inputs in a label being bad would be
appreciated.



We recently tested this exact construction (with the appropriate 'id'
attribute in the  element) and got surprising results with  
JAWS.

It does not associate the text label with the form control even though
they are associated in two ways (the 'for' and 'id' attributes and the
fact that they are enclosed in the  element.

JAWS does associate the text label and form control if the 
element is not present but that limits your styling options. I have no
idea why JAWS behaves this way.

Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd



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Re: [WSG] Accessible Forms

[Bushidodeep]

Hi,

I recommend this publication . It just arrived from Amazon

today, and is very informative.

C



On Aug 19, 2009, at 1:42 PM, Erickson, Kevin (DOE) wrote:


FYI- I did replace align="right" & align="center" with CSS styling.

-Original Message-
From: Erickson, Kevin (DOE)
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:33 PM
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
Subject: RE: [WSG] Accessible Forms

I have two simple forms. Which is better?:
http://www.doedev.vi.virginia.gov/z_testing_area/kevin/form_mail_vi/form
_mailer4.shtml
Code:
 
   

First Name:


A
value is required.


Last Name:


A
value is required.
   

Email Address:


A
value is required.class="textfieldInvalidFormatMsg">Invalid

format.
   
   
   

Comments:



   
   



   
 

AND
http://www.doedev.vi.virginia.gov/z_testing_area/kevin/form_mail_vi/form
_mailer6.shtml
Code:
 
 *Required information
 
   
 Form Mailer
   
   
 
   *First Name:td>

 
   
 A value is
required.
   
   
 
 *Last Name:td>

 
 
   A value is
required.
   
   
 
 *Email
Address:
 
   
 A value is
required.Invalid
format.
   
   
 
   Comments:
 
 
 
   
   
 
   
 
   
 
 

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 4:10 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessible Forms

On 19/08/2009 20:04, David Dorward wrote:


On 19 Aug 2009, at 19:35, Tom Livingston wrote:


On a slightly related topic, I have wrapped inputs inside of labels
for browser compatibility for the label clickability/focus issue
(based on some research some time ago), but have just read for the
first time recently, that this is not a good idea. Any thoughts?



It isn't really a bad idea. It isn't as well supported as using the
for attribute, so you should use that as well. Beyond that it is a
matter of person taste.


Well, I haven't personally verified this, but there are apparently  
some

interoperability drawbacks to nesting inside labels even when you also
use "for" and "id", i.e.

  
Name:

  

See:

http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=254

More generally, folks, see W3C's Web Accessibility Initiative's  
advice,

which includes some reports about poor support for implicit labels:

http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG-TECHS/H44.html

--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis


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[WSG] A Standards Oxymoron

[Bushidodeep]

Hi,

After peeping the following requirement in a job description,

 " looking for a Web Developer who can translate visual designs into  
pixel-perfect, standards-compliant html/​css pages"


a grin rivaling a James Bond villain curled the corners of my mouth.

Pixel perfect and standards is an oxymoron, complete opposed by goals  
and

the nature of the web.



C










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Re: [WSG] A Standards Oxymoron

[Bushidodeep]

Hi,

I've sided with the following camps regarding the notion of
pixel perfect designs and standards, so my
interpretation of the job requirement left me
amused by the juxtaposition.



". And once we get over pixel perfect layouts (as a recovering pixel- 
nazi,
I know it is really, REALLY hard) our designs should look lovely in  
any newer browser."




"Why websites look different in different browsers
(or why pixel-perfect design is not possible on the web)"





On Aug 22, 2009, at 1:27 PM, Rimantas Liubertas wrote:


Hi,
After peeping the following requirement in a job description,
 " looking for a Web Developer who can translate visual designs into
pixel-perfect, standards-compliant html/css pages"
a grin rivaling a James Bond villain curled the corners of my mouth.
Pixel perfect and standards is an oxymoron, complete opposed by  
goals and

the nature of the web.


No, it is not. The requirement itself may be not reasonable but it
does not contradict
web standards in any way.

Regards,
Rimantas
--
http://rimantas.com/


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Re: [WSG] A Standards Oxymoron

[Bushidodeep]

R,

It seems we've arrived at another topic
exposing the youth of both the web
and Web Standards.

The exchange is rich food for
thought, and inspiration for research.

Many Thanks,
C






On Aug 22, 2009, at 2:02 PM, Rimantas Liubertas wrote:


Hi,
I've sided with the following camps regarding the notion of
pixel perfect designs and standards, so my
interpretation of the job requirement left me
amused by the juxtaposition.

". And once we get over pixel perfect layouts (as a recovering  
pixel-nazi,
I know it is really, REALLY hard) our designs should look lovely in  
any

newer browser."

"Why websites look different in different browsers

(or why pixel-perfect design is not possible on the web)"




I still fail to see how this leads to "Pixel perfect and standards is
an oxymoron, complete opposed by goals and
the nature of the web."

Let me quote http://acid3.acidtests.org/ "To pass the test, a browser
must use its default settings, the animation has to be smooth, the
score has to end on 100/100, and the final page has to look exactly,
PIXEL FOR PIXEL, like this reference rendering." (caps are mine).
Toughest test to test standards compliance calling for pixel perfect
match hardly makes pixel perfection and web standards an oxymoron.

Though let me repeat: in most cases this requirement does not make any
sense. On the other hand, it is not that hard to achieve as some may
claim.


Regards,
Rimantas
--
http://rimantas.com/


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Re: [WSG] A Standards Oxymoron

[Bushidodeep]

F,

As in the case of clients that rigidly adhere to the notion of pixel  
perfection,
the design usually spirals into perfection on a single user-agent,  
with complete

disregard of the possible thousands in circulation.

The jobs description just seemed one to avoid.


C




On Aug 22, 2009, at 2:43 PM, Felix Miata wrote:


On 2009/08/23 00:02 (GMT+0300) Rimantas Liubertas composed:


...in most cases this requirement does not make any
sense. On the other hand, it is not that hard to achieve as some may
claim.


Achieving px perfection on a designer's machine isn't so hard, but
maintaining it on all visitor's machines is impossible. None do well  
when
encountering the minimum font size or text zoom defenses too often  
required
to use them. If existed web standards of politeness or user  
friendliness,

such designs could never meet them.
--
How much better to get wisdom than gold, to choose
understanding rather than silver. Proverbs 16:16 NKJV

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/


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[WSG] An Acceptable Dropdown

[Bushidodeep]

Hi,

All debates aside on drop-down menus, they're called
for, demanded by some. I like this one,
and wondered if anyone has a tutorial URL bookmarked?


C








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