Re: [WSG] IE fixed: PNG transparency working like Firefox???
I rather use
#logo {
background: url('img/logo.png') no-repeat;
...
}
* html #logo {
background: none;
filter:
progid:DXImageTransform.Microsoft.AlphaImageLoader(src='img/logo.png',sizingMethod='scale');
}
or better put the IE junk in css linked by conditional comments.
--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: alphanumeric.cz | janbrasna.com
Stop IE! - http://www.stopie.com/ | http://browsehappy.com/
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Re: [WSG] Pages reloading
It is reloading, so what's the problem? It depends on the line speed and cache how fast it will load the new page. So it may flicker sometimes, sometimes not. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: alphanumeric.cz | janbrasna.com Stop IE! - http://www.stopie.com/ | http://browsehappy.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS3.0
But nevertheless good timing, cause w3.org just released a Working Draft of CSS3 Backgrounds and Borders Module. And it has multiple background images. Great news! Maybe once when we'll all be old and CSS3 support will be common thing among the browsers, we'll be able to tell our children how this was complicated in our times... ;) -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: alphanumeric.cz | janbrasna.com Stop IE! - http://www.stopie.com/ | http://browsehappy.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site Review: whatcanido.com.au
Hi Tatham, the layout breaks in Opera 7.54u2/Win (the background is weirdly positioned). Safari 1.1 and FF 1.0/Mac looks OK. IE 5.23/Mac badly positions the main content area (some negative margins/positions?). -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: alphanumeric.cz | janbrasna.com Stop IE! - http://www.stopie.com/ | http://browsehappy.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Other character sets/languages
I usually code using Notepad Better use something like PSPad wchich offers you the choice not to include these ident. bytes. file as UTF-8 compatible with the iso-8859-1 meta tag? Eh, nope. If you start using non-ASCII characters (curly quotes etc.) it would break the page... -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: alphanumeric.cz | janbrasna.com Stop IE! - http://www.stopie.com/ | http://browsehappy.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] A different Firefox bug?
The same happens with any input field in your comments form. I have seen reports of this in other forums as well. http://archivist.incutio.com/viewlist/css-discuss/52677 -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: alphanumeric.cz | janbrasna.com Stop IE! - http://www.stopie.com/ | http://browsehappy.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] systemnames in CSS?
You can get an overview how it works in WestCiv's CSS Tutorial here: http://westciv.com/style_master/academy/css_tutorial/properties/values.html#color -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: alphanumeric.cz | janbrasna.com Stop IE! - http://www.stopie.com/ | http://browsehappy.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] systemnames in CSS?
It might be useful for custom form gadgets (slider). Or WYSIWYG and similar interfaces. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: alphanumeric.cz | janbrasna.com Stop IE! - http://www.stopie.com/ | http://browsehappy.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] To display or not to display validation logos?
I personally try to place this information in the accessibility statement. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: alphanumeric.cz | janbrasna.com Stop IE! - http://www.stopie.com/ | http://browsehappy.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Attribute Values
What's more in-spec: When talking about XHTML, it adheres to XML wellformness - so it's defined really simple: http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/REC-xml-20001006#NT-AttValue -- both are equivalent and thus sholud be supported in the same way. (I'd porsonally use double quotes to have it more compatible if there was a problem with older browsers) -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: alphanumeric.cz | janbrasna.com Stop IE! - http://www.stopie.com/ | http://browsehappy.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site check (esp. Mac): One House
about Macs because I can't check there You can. http://www.browsercam.com/ http://danvine.com/icapture/ buy a Mac as a testing machine. :) Not necessarily. http://pearpc.sf.net BTW you'll end up with a testing PC and using Apple regularly :) -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: alphanumeric.cz | janbrasna.com Stop IE! - http://www.stopie.com/ | http://browsehappy.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] horizontal list menus based on images rather text in css..WORKS NOW
- What happens to people who have images turned off. That's the most painfull issue. Good solution is http://wellstyled.com/css-replace-text-by-image.html (Second solution) - How will a seach engine index those links. Well. - How will a screen reader read them? Well if you use something like http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg13318.html - What happens if your page is printed (by default background images won't be printed) You have to use a print stylesheet... -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: alphanumeric.cz | janbrasna.com Stop IE! - http://www.stopie.com/ | http://browsehappy.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] wildcards in css selectors?
a[href=http://www.foobar.com*] or a[href=*filename*] CSS3 has ^= selector. (Look it up in http://www.alistapart.com/articles/goingtoprint/ ...) -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] wildcards in css selectors?
It appears that gecko doesn't support that yet. I guess I'll have to wait. Exactly. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cutting and pasting content
Are there any suggestions for allowing a block of content to be selected in IE and not having it try to select the entire page? Avoid abolute positioning in these areas. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cutting and pasting content
Hm, then I can't help further, this is the only situation I know about that was problematic in IE... :( -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Writing with a markup language
Before sending all of us to your article, maybe you could have stated that it is intended for Italian-speakers. Piero wrote it :) -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] javascript problem with pop-up on hyperlink click (IE6 displays an error, FF, Opera work fine)
return false; Do not return false. Return !window.open(...) instead. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] javascript problem with pop-up on hyperlink click (IE6 displays an error, FF, Opera work fine)
javascript may fail to open a new window? Popup blockers etc. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] javascript problem with pop-up on hyperlink click (IE6 displays an error, FF, Opera work fine)
Don't popup blockers allow them when they're a result of a direct user interaction Sometimes, sometimes not. It all depends on browser and/or setup... Or is this another thing that XP SP2 messes up? I'd guess so... -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] MSN goes valid
See http://stopdesign.com/log/2005/01/31/msn-goes-css.html -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] SXSW session on accessible flash on fawnyblog
Nice, thanx. Can someone post more links from SXSWi? I know about http://www.happycog.com/clients/sxsw/ + http://photomatt.net/2005/03/12/zeldman-keynote/ http://scribbling.net/sxsw05/ http://www.andybudd.com/sxsw05/ http://blog.fawny.org/category/events/sxsw2005/ -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] SXSW session on accessible flash on fawnyblog
Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jflint/ -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] SXSW session on accessible flash on fawnyblog
http://joeclark.org/sxsw/ -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] 3 cols width any column longest and no div clear
And it doesn't use any hacks as well...
What's this?
* html #container {display:inline-block;}
A filter :))
--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] underscore hack - why underscore?
Is this very naughty? It doesn't validate as CSS, but then neither does the underscore hack (unless the validator is wrong, as some would have us believe). The easiest description is that _ or - as the first letter of a selector is formally allowed in CSS (it is designed for vendor specific extensions). It only doesn't validate because it is not present in CSS2.1 formal gramatic, however it is valid in the global CSS scope. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Opening links in new window with XHTML
a) DOM - target is still present in DOM, so you can make it via this.target, via onclick or behavior, see below... b) onclick=return !window.open(this.href) - ugly, functional c) behavior, using eg. rel=external and adding the behavior (window.open or this.target) via JS - more info on sitepoint.com The quick summary is that opening windows shouldn't be handled by the document itself. However, client scripting is suitable for it, so when it's really neccessary, JS can do the job. In many ways. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Opening links in new window with XHTML
I think Ill just leave it and they can use the middle-click if they want Good decision! -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Son of Suckerfish and IE 6 (SP2)
I notice that IE6 with service pack 2 installed initially blocks the JavaScript that makes the li hover sections drop It's only when browsing local files. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Styling Forms
I think that styling forms is very nice addon to any site. See http://www.pixy.cz/pixylophone/obrazky/styled-forms.gif -- styling the form elements can make them look worse outside the major browsers. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Styling Forms
I think that styling forms is very nice addon to any site. And one thing more - you can't rely on it, you won't now how it is rendered on various platforms, nevertheless it might look weird, it might also be unusable etc. ... If you style 'em, you have to be careful. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
OT: Re: [WSG] Son of Suckerfish and IE 6 (SP2)
(and activeX objects and whatnot) from the internet (because we all know who how safe the internet is). I guess it's just one of those 'undocumented features'. I think it's intended as a security fix for all those *script mail viruses (iloveyou etc.) The sad point is that the only solution for PNG transparency (filters) also stops working on local :( -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] help with css round corners.
and am trying to adapt it for use in a more complex wrapper with a masthead I know I'm not answering directly to your problem, but take a look at ALA: Mountaintop Corners http://alistapart.com/articles/mountaintop/ ALA: CSS Design: Creating Custom Corners Borders http://alistapart.com/articles/customcorners/ ALA: CSS Design: Creating Custom Corners Borders Part II http://alistapart.com/articles/customcorners2/ -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site check - http://verkehrsanwaelte.de
I'd add http://annevankesteren.nl/archives/2004/04/min-height-in-safari -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] how to use external fonts with css?
http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/archive/2004/08/sifr or http://alistapart.com/articles/dynatext/ -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Comments on new wirelessforum.org.nz site?
Just your introduction of the site overwhelmed me :) Good job, most of the things were already said, however there is one thing I really dislike - the compression of the header. You should divide the parts, and combine JPG and GIF/PNG while using them for suitable parts of it... -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] wirelessforum.org.nz --- on a mobile device?
It's unstyled and without pictures on Nokia 6230; if it is intention, then it's great (this phone screws the page a lot if it comes to applying CSS) so the site is really usable on it. Also nice in Mobile Opera on Siemens SX1. More info on topic: HTMLDog | HTML and CSS for Mobiles: http://www.htmldog.com/ptg/archives/55.php Stopdesign | Targeting Small Screens: http://www.stopdesign.com/log/2004/12/16/small-screens.html CSS-D Wiki | Handheld Stylesheets: http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=HandheldStylesheets -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Validation of CSS
That is a good point, there should be a DOCTYPE identifier for CSS, that would make it a lot easier to validate and everything. IMHO not, because CSS doesn't have strict separation of versions. The validator should check only well-formness of it. And then alternatively you could be asked what version/revesion you used when authoring it - to check it for valid selector/rules/media etc. However you can have CSS1, CSS2 (precisely 2.1 as the last revision), CSS3 and vendor specific rules in one file and browser should pick only the ones the understand. So many version of CSS can be in one file. Therefore validation against one specific version is IMHO N/A here. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Taming Your Multiple IE Standalones
Multiple versions of Explorer for Windows on a single computer have revolutionized CSS bug testing for websites, but sadly the different IE browser windows appear identical to the eye, potentially leading to confusion and testing mistakes. Agree. One of the problems I noticed is the style stripping via different kinds of import or media. Also some JS misbehaves there AFAIK. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] more on flashish stuff: SVG
as far as I know, mozzilla is the only browser to have any built-in support Opera 8 will have it too. Has anyone here actually done any development with SVG? Development not, design yes. (It's quite good vector format, AFAIK Quartz and latest KDE use it.) -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Someone who *wants* the peekaboo bug
Melbourne vs Sydney? Ah, you've discovered the Microsoft's bug impemeting policy... :D Seriously... It might have something in common with specifying eg. the line-height (that AFAIK fixes it) automagically by the system etc. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Someone who *wants* the peekaboo bug
It might have something in common with specifying eg. the line-height (that AFAIK fixes it) automagically by the system etc. When you say 'by the system' you mean something like IE's preferences? Well, rather like Could it be CRT versus LCD monitors? -- W2k could have set some different defaults when using LCD etc., but I'm really guessing... -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] flash and accessabilty
Lisa, it's in the archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg15999.html -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
ALA: Greg Kise - CSS Talking Points: Selling Clients on Web Standards http://www.alistapart.com/articles/csstalking/ -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] web design presentation: advice?
All these point are great, but party for more experienced web designers. Tell them please not to use imageready or wysiwyg in dw for making the layout. This is the way that most of visual designers use to make web sites. The have a different view of web design, for them it's just visual designing and then some magic to make the page from the image, that can be made by an application. Try to show them that this is not the good way. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
When I hire a professional I'm paying them to use their knowledge and expertise ... Along these lines, Do we really need to tell clients, or whoever, how we make a Web page? I agree, I don't want any latin things or the precise workflow :) when going to surgery. The only thing I want to know, how is it done from the scope of myself (eg. we'll do this, therefore... and then you can ... and then that's all ok ... happily ever after... :D), the precise description is IMHO for them. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
One more: http://nidahas.com/2005/04/08/marketing-web-standards/ -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility
For a compromise http://www.lionsq3.asn.au the tab key reveals the skip links. Dave Shea has it on Mezzoblue too, great feature...) -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Alistapart vs Digital-Web
I'm an inclusionist. I read both. I read both although I'm materialist ;) -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] UTF-8
I have [...] Czech, [...] sites I'm working on and would prefer to convert the UTF-8 to some numeric equal for certain high-range letters. Well, I'd suggest you not to do this, as nobody here would do it this way :) However it'd make the maintenance easier for non-CZ/PL person. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] FYI New WSG jobs section
Russ, is it (strictly) only about web deign positions, or someone can also post an ad related to the whole web design business (eg. sales managers for a WD company etc.)? Thanks. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
OT Re: [WSG] UTF-8
PPS. This is a good test to see if the WSG mail system can handle UTF-8 AFAIK å is Latin1 character (Scandinavian), so no need for UTF here. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: OT Re: [WSG] UTF-8
Yes, but the bytes used in ISO 8859-1 (Latin1) or Windows code page and those usef for UTF-8 are different. Sure, however the mail came in Latin1 (see the headers), so I just want to comment that it won't show the difference. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] UTF-8
- Half of the Norwegian sites I visit in a day are full of question-marks--until I actively change encoding, and change it again, and again... Hmm, we here in CZ use Latin2 or CP1250, everyone uses proper charset headers, so no problem with this. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Suggestions for compliant drop down menus...
Hi, http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/ http://alistapart.com/articles/hybrid/ etc. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Mystical belief in the power of Web Standards, Usability, and tableless CSS
Go to number 3: Mystical belief in the power of Web Standards, Usability, and tableless CSS What do you think? That he might be particularly right. All of this is not self-salutary, there are many other points that lead to a successful website. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] making beautiful uri's
http://httpd.apache.org/docs/mod/mod_rewrite.html -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Mystical belief in the power of Web Standards, Usability, and tableless CSS
I saw the IMAGE Yeah... Image or branding flash site looks IMHO different than this. This looks really quickly put together with no intention and idea. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] making beautiful uri's
Beware of the catch that with ForceType Apache accepts only GET requests and drops all POST data. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Accessibility and showcasing heavily visual work (was IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc))
What about hybrid sites where the content is primarily xhtml and the visuals or branding utilize a swf(with alternate content of course)? That's great if it is done by a standards-wise designer, so it's done properly (with the fallback alternatives). -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Accessibility and showcasing heavily visual work (was IMAGE(was Mystical belief etc))
Interesting Jan, how would you do that - any examples? Use the object element properly[1] and insert an alternative in there (image, any styled code - even image map[2] etc. ...). No examples, though. Sorry (can't remember any good). [1] http://alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay [2] http://alistapart.com/articles/imagemap -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
Hi, I want to express my gratitude to all who answered my question regarding the Web standards as a selling point. I only managed to read through all your messages today, your answers have helped me clarified some doubts I have. Tee, have a look at one more: http://vivabit.co.uk/articles/wsbp/ - I thinks it was not mendioned yet. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
Stephen, how long have you benn designing CSS based layouts? I can confirm the Patrick's opinion, after some time you get enough experience to build a CSS-P layout much faster and without any incompatibilities etc. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
I realise as well that many problems with the use of CSS can be laid at the feet of IE6. Indeed. However, IE6 is the dominant browser and is what most of your clients and their clients are using. Unfortunately :( Using tables for layout is also a fairly intuitive thing, so using them was not a problem for people making web sites. Nope. What is your process of drawing on paper? Do you draw the separate objects independently and combine them, or do you use squared paper and draw the image at once, square by square? In the 1990's tables were raped for creating layouts on web, because there were no alternatives. Now the situation is different and I can't see any advantage of drawing box by box than using freely the whole available space. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE7 update
They claim png support and the end of the peekaboo bug, for a start! Good to know - so it'd be right to link alternative CSS with alphaimageloader by conditional comments not for IE 5 but only for 5.5 and 6.0 ... -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] may 1 reboot
I have this setting DirectoryIndex index.phtml index.php default.php index.html index.htm on my server, so I just have to upload index.phtml - it has bigger priority. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] best practice?
body {text-align: center;}
#container {text-align: left; margin: 0 auto;}
--
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Re: [WSG] The list border-left (borderLeft) example (Sydney meeting)
The section on using borders instead of pipes | in list navigation shows how CSS can be used to visually provide the same feedback as the pipe but leave the structure of the document untouched. Yes, I've learned this trick some time ago. My question last night was about this as an alternative: [...] The only query last night was the loss of semantics... Well maybe it'd be better to use :last-child pseudosetector (if it were supported) to avoid marking the last child as last by a class (it's redundant from a logical point of view; and the last element may change from time to time) -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Form Validation error
Can I see the site Please? The big one I meant is covered with NDA, so I can't tell you. There are two more under development, one available to outside - a really small one on http://www.bonsoir.cz/obchod/ (I'm working on it right now, so not all parts rewritten yet) Only if deadline is not due :( That's up to you to properly plan the whole workflow and production process and set the appropriate timeline. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] background image size in future CSS
In what possible way can you stretch an image, keep it looking good and save bandwidth? SVG ;) -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] background image size in future CSS
But seriously, I have no idea what the use _can_ be. Well, I can't make anything up at the moment, but it could be something like em-sized vecor logotype etc. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Any good color spies?
I use ColorZilla + http://wellstyled.com/tools/colorscheme2/index-en.html -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE CSS Gap Problem? Anybody have a solution?
Transform ul li../li li../li /ul into ulli../lili../li/ul -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE CSS Gap Problem? Anybody have a solution?
Hi this never worked, neither did closing up all the whitespace.
Hm, then it might be something with line-height.
#btmain ul {
padding: 0;
margin: 0;
list-style-type: none;
line-height: 1em;
}
--
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Re: [WSG] Site check please - eCommerce
I'm using label with all my input elements, but the one for the search form at the top at the page. Does using the title attribute make it accessible enough or do I must use label? Label is in Priority 2, title is enough for Priority 1. BTW placing a label there and hiding it via CSS does the job too... -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site check please - eCommerce
BTW, what OS is Jaguar? (you can answer this off-list) Mac OS X 10.2 I've checked with Safari v. 1.2.4 in OSX v.10.3.7 and it is working fine... 1.2.4 on 10.3.8 also fine -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Comments
Hi, it's a CSS filter to rule out IE5Mac, see http://www.dithered.com/css_filters/css_only/escaped_comment_end.html -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Minimum browsers/OS tested for?
@import'styles.css'; http://www.dithered.com/css_filters/css_only/import_single_quotes_no_space.html Agree, I'm lately converting to doing it the same way (as you never know when the brokem wannabe-css-rendering makes the site unusable, so rather serve plain document to them). -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] there is no attribute name
Just a question - I am using a XHTML 1.1 Strict DTD. 1.1 doesn't diverse between strict and others. There is just one 1.1 spec. It seems that you cannot giveform elements or anchor elements a name this causes a few issues... Not exactly... #1 - anchors - when I have a SKIP TO CONTENT link. It doesn't like the NAME I have given the a... Isn't this the only *proper* way of anchoring inside the page??? No. #anchor-name skips also to element id=anchor-name #2 - forms - when I have custom buttons (javascript: document.formnamehere.submit()) That doesn't work. Sure. Because you should use DOM and again - it's sticked to ID (see getElementById() ...) My problem is that form buttons don't look or act the same in all browsers, so I use a a styled like a button. Not a good idea... (JS off, semantics, usability...) I know input can have a name - because it works with label... Eh, label binding shlould be again on ID... The name= attrib on inputs it for the parametrizing / query. It's still send in the form of action.url?name1=value1name2=value2 etc. Sorry if this has been discussed over and over No problem, I just hope I'll show you the right way ;) -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web standards presentation
Mike, this is awesome, I love the notes! ;) Who was the target audience, please? -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site check - lastminute.com
IMHO it's still on-topic - AFAIK all modern browsers can do print preview. IE4+, Gecko, Safari, Opera... -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Where to start?: Need to make a really junk code page to standards-compliant
Drop it all and start from scratch, the layout is quite simple. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Definition lists for comments in blogs
Foobar IS F.U.B.A.R. It isn't, it's only derived from it. See http://kb.iu.edu/data/aetq.html -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] An alternative to FIR (Fahrner Image replacement)?
Well, I don't fancy it much, I don't like the idea of presentational image in HTML... I personally use own solution[1], based partly on Dynatext[2]. Now I'm playing with Anatoly's DIR[3] [1] Can be seen on http://www.janbrasna.com/ or http://www.bonsoir.cz/ [2] http://alistapart.com/articles/dynatext [3] http://fecklessmind.com/main/5/definitive-solution-to-image-replacement -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] inline-block support?
what specific, real-world problem could be solved by the use of display:inline-block? Anything where display: block + float: left is used at once (eg. navigation, definition list layouts etc.) -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] inline-block support?
Not really - remember that 'inline-block' remains an *inline* element, Sure, sorry for not mentioning it. inline-block is not supported at all by IE 5.0 Win And Gecko AFAIK. BTW CSS3 has quite interesting display: ... capabilities. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Is there a tool that converts long hand CSS to shorthand CSS?
http://cdburnerxp.se/cssparse/css_optimiser.php -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Multiple class names in older browsers
Hi Maxine, all fine in 5.01 and 5.5 ...
AFAIK these old one can't handle
h1.pink.blue.orange { ... }
and interpret it as
h1.pink .blue .orange { ... }
--
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Re: [WSG] Regarding foreign languages
Vaska, you¨re still mixing those: I think you are mixing two things which should be separated. The first problem is the language of the page (defined in the header) The second problem is how to create a non-ascii character He is right. It is a tricky business because for a French typist I can use entities and change an é into eacute; It's wise to use codepage that contain this character, or better UTF. but with Chinese everything comes up unreadable (as you've mentioned) Even when using Unicode? There will be a situation where one page will have the header encoding in ZH and an input/text field as EN-US. I'm pretty sure that the field itself won't establish the language parameters that go into the field - the operating system will. No, the browser will. It will send the characters in the encoding (charset, not language!) of the page. One thing I don't understand though, is at what point does the computer actually use the xml:lang attribute? At the input (client-side)? When it gets to the server/table (server-side)? I can type any language I want into the textarea, but what comes out can vary... The 'lang' attrib is mostly for screen readers, CSS language tools and some processing applications. It doesn't determine the way how characters are inputed/printed/transfered. That's a part for charset. What, where, which formats do I use and stick with if the idea is to support just about any lanugage that's out there (theoretically)? Some Unicode - I don't know how it works with Asian/Arabic/Hebrew - whether UTF8, 16 or 32, what about the Endians etc. ... -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Character encoding
I've always thought that characters should be marked up with appropriate entity codes... It's just always felt dirty seeing certain characters not written in their appropriate entity codes. Eh, maybe on anglo-saxon websites... The rest of the world has a different opinion ;) -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] PNG Support
we will have proper PNG Support in IE I wouldn't be that sure ;) You know - MS... -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Hiding styles from IE5?
See http://www.dithered.com/css_filters/css_only/ -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] looking for an accessibility reference on why text-only is bad
Kay, I'll try to summarize a paragraph on this topic from one Czech accessibility book: - having a page containing only text still doesn't implicate it's accessibile - using text version often leads to forgetting all the rules of good web on the main site and placing more barriers there - if the main site is not accessible, it is hard to find a link to the text-olny version - paralell version may simplify the issue to an idea that accessible = for blind visitors, which isn't true and leeds to constraining other visitors who may use the accessible site - the need of a separate maintenance of the text-only version often ends in not-so-accurate content and makes it worthless. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Flash and valid XHTML
I use IE Conditional Comments: Isn't it a bit overkill? -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Flash and valid XHTML
I use IE Conditional Comments: Isn't it a bit overkill? Why do you think so? Having the code twice, you know... I don't (personally) like the idea of having these two block separately. I had some problems with flash satay and IE 5.x so I switched over to this method. And if you don't use loads of small flash movies in a page it's not too much overhead. So I started to use the FlashObject... -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] A web culture
Movie? The Net, Matrix... ;) Song? http://www.shauninman.com/plete/2005/02/whats-the-word Book? Uh, plenty (I mean, not technical, but more obvious some sociology etc. ...) -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Embedding quicktime movie and xhtml validation
I'd use analogically the satay method... -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Visited Link Styling
Strike-through styling for visited links, I've heard differing opinions
on this method, but am asking the consensus of the WSG.
a:visited { text-decoration: line-through; }
I use it, but not on mainstream web site, it's more like my personal
playground, so I can do it. Honestly - I wouldn't use it on some kind of
commercial (or so..) web, a small part of the visitors told me about the
worse readibility of the link below, and theyre right, it's IMHO a bit
less usable.
I don't remember where I borrowed this from, kudos to the original designer.
It's something Simon Collison or Bojan Janjanin promoted.
--
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ins underline accessibility (was Re: [WSG] Visited Link Styling)
that the link was deactivated when it has a strike through Russ, it's an OT in this thread, but it is connected with this - not with del, but with ins -- is the underline accessible? You know, it's widely spread that only links should have the underline, but I noticed it just few days ago that browsers use underlining for inserted text by default. Is this alright? -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: ins underline accessibility (was Re: [WSG] Visited Link Sty ling)
Sure, Ted, the solution is pretty obvious, I've tested light background for highlighting, and it works as intended aswell. I was only interested in the accessibility issue of the default behavior - it seems a bit contra-productive for me. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
