Re: [wsjt-devel] 60 Hz + harmonics sidebands on FT8 signals? (Paul Kube)

[Paul Randall]

Jim, your recommendation that all shack equipment uses a single source and 
green wire, like the high quality distribution illustrated in your PDF is spot 
on, thank you. I guess weather in the UK is pretty benign, although we do have 
our moments. I remember working in Poland; in February I was surprised to see 
the lightning protection. In August I understood why.



Kind regards

Paul G3NJV



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From: Jim Brown 
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 8:12:05 PM
To: WSJT software development 
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] 60 Hz + harmonics sidebands on FT8 signals? (Paul 
Kube)

I would certainly hope that you would want it for your personal safety,
and for the non-destruction of your home and your equipment! It also
happens that proper bonding of equipment, and obtaining power for all
interconnected equipment from outlets that share the same green wire,
minimizes hum, buzz, and RFI. That is the focus of my advice.

Another observation. The prevalence of lightning varies widely around
the world, as shown on this map. Those of living in high frequency
strike areas pay a lot more attention to it than do others.

https://geology.com/articles/lightning-map.shtml
http://lightningsafety.com/nlsi_info/lightningmaps/US_FD_Lightning.pdf
http://lightningsafety.com/nlsi_info/lightningmaps/worldlightning.html

73, Jim K9YC

On 8/14/2019 4:52 AM, Paul Randall wrote:
> There is no requirement for lightning protection in all buildings in the
> UK although there are laws which govern businesses separately. As a
> result, the lightning protection in the average domestic UK home
> approximates to “none at all”,



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[wsjt-devel] WW Digi Contest Practices Friday

[Ed Muns]

Two one-hour practices again this Friday:

Friday 16 August 19-20 UTC  (EU evening)
Friday 16 August) 23-00 UTC (NA evening)  [NOTE THIS 2nd SESSION
IS 2 HOURS EARLIER THAN THE ORIGINAL SCHEDULE DUE TO
SARTG RTTY CONTEST STARTING AT 00 UTC.]

Use the recommended frequencies in the WW Digi rules.  If you operate in the
daily FT frequency sub-bands be sure to use only the non-contest message
sequence with Grid Square and SNR.  ('Special operating activity' is
disabled in WSJT-X.)

As part of your practice, feel free to try different scenarios that may
occur during the contest.  For example, try both the WW Digi contest mode
(aka NA VHF Contest mode in WSJT-X's 'Special operating activity' function)
and the standard default message sequence with 'Special operating activity'
disabled.  Use different calls you may have access to, e.g, club calls.  Try
different configurations of your software, e.g., automatic vs. manual modes.

The WW Digi log processing system is up and running so we'd appreciate you
submitting your practice logs so we can test before the actual contest.  The
contest date is currently set for last week's practice and will be reset for
this
week on Friday.  The problems encountered last week have been fixed (we
think!).

Cabrillo logs: https://ww-digi.com/logcheck/
ADIF logs: https://ww-digi.com/adif/

73,
Ed W0YK




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Re: [wsjt-devel] Decoding issues

[David Gilbert]

Hi, Steinar.

Yes, I suspect the AGC due to other very strong stations in the passband 
could be limiting your ability to decode.  I don't know if you use some 
sort of DATA mode on your IC-7851 or not ... I think that usually 
minimizes AGC action.  If you are using SSB mode, AGC could certainly 
kick in early unless you change the settings to make it a flatter response.


Although it is a nuisance, one possibility might be to manually tune 
your receiver to the station you are trying to decode and then narrow 
the receive passband.  I know other hams sometimes do that and I can do 
it on my K3, but as I say it's a bit clumsy for a normal contact.  To 
work something more rare where the other station is staying on the same 
frequency for a while, though, it might be worth the trouble.


Well, your other issue does indeed sound pretty odd.  I'm afraid I don't 
have much idea what might be doing that.  Maybe one of the developers 
has seen that condition.


Take care es 73,
Dave   AB7E



On 8/14/2019 12:07 PM, Steinar Fremme via wsjt-devel wrote:

Thank you Dave !

Well, . I live remote from any local noice - If I tune right outside 
the FT8 frequency I have nothing at all on my S meter .
I can have a SSB QSO with stations not even lifting my S meter at all. 
 The IC-7851 have a grate receiver


But what it might be - is that - like just now on 20M - I have some 
Spanish stations peeking my S meter to 9+30dB

And the station list is giving them +20 on the dB indication
Right now - more than 50% of my receiving stations have more than 
+10dB to +16dB on that scale
And sure the AGC is limiting the ability to receive weak stations on 
the same frequency ?


To the other observation - For me it looks like the SW is decoding the 
same frame over and over gain ?


As long as the receiving station is calling me - and I answer - it all 
will continue as long as the other station is calling me - and the 
signal level will be the same all the time - it never changes ?
As soon as I change my receiving OR transmitting tone frequency by 1 
Hz up then down - or hitting the CQ frame selector - then at the same 
time  the same station is replying with its receiving level - and then 
all is ok from there
It's like its already decoded, but not shown - as it pops up straight 
away - not delayed until decoding next timeframe and so on ?


Regards
Steinar Fremme

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On 14 Aug 2019, at 19:46, David Gilbert > wrote:



Greetings Steinar.

It seems to me that both of your issues could be caused by a high 
local noise level at your end.  Let's look at the second issue first.


WSJT-X doesn't report the absolute signal strength ... it reports the 
signal strength relative to a (if I remember correctly) 2.5 KHz 
bandwidth at the receiving location. As an example, if your local 
noise level is 10 dB higher than most other locations (easily 
possible), your transmit reports as measured at the other end are 
going to be 10 dB better than the receive reports you tell the other 
station.  Your local noise could be higher due to many possible 
factors ... local industrial activity,  a neighbor with an older 
plasma TV, somebody nearby using a welder, poor quality LED lights, a 
noisy internet router, etc.


The same thing might be causing your first problem if your local 
noise level isn't consistent, which it probably isn't.  It is 
possible that sometimes you simply don't hear the other station's 
reply.  In your example, you wouldn't know if the other station had 
already sent R-02 previously if your noise level had popped up 
briefly and covered it up.  WSJT-X doesn't tell you how many times 
the other station had sent the same report.  You say it only happens 
rarely, so maybe the fact that doing something else fixes the problem 
is simply coincidence based upon small sample size.


Obviously I cannot say for certain ... I am just trying to offer 
helpful speculation.  But a higher than typical noise level at your 
location ... for any reason ... could produce similar symptoms.


I have the opposite "problem".  The noise level at my QTH is very 
low, so I often give better reports than I receive and I often hear 
(read) transmissions from other stations who can't hear me even 
though I have good antennas and live on a steep hillside.  For the 
same signal strength each direction a station I can consistently 
read  at -22 or -24 will usually not be able to decode me.


Best regards,
Dave AB7E





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Re: [wsjt-devel] Decoding issues

[Steinar Fremme via wsjt-devel]

Thank you Dave !

Well, . I live remote from any local noice - If I tune right outside the FT8 
frequency I have nothing at all on my S meter .
I can have a SSB QSO with stations not even lifting my S meter at all.  The 
IC-7851 have a grate receiver

But what it might be - is that - like just now on 20M - I have some Spanish 
stations peeking my S meter to 9+30dB
And the station list is giving them +20 on the dB indication
Right now - more than 50% of my receiving stations have more than +10dB to 
+16dB on that scale
And sure the AGC is limiting the ability to receive weak stations on the same 
frequency ?  

To the other observation - For me it looks like the SW is decoding the same 
frame over and over gain ?

As long as the receiving station is calling me - and I answer - it all will 
continue as long as the other station is calling me - and the signal level will 
be the same all the time - it never changes ?
As soon as I change my receiving OR transmitting tone frequency by 1 Hz up then 
down - or hitting the CQ frame selector - then at the same time  the same 
station is replying with its receiving level - and then all is ok from there   
It's like its already decoded, but not shown - as it pops up straight away - 
not delayed until decoding next timeframe and so on ?

Regards
Steinar Fremme

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> On 14 Aug 2019, at 19:46, David Gilbert  wrote:
> 
> 
> Greetings Steinar.
> 
> It seems to me that both of your issues could be caused by a high local noise 
> level at your end.  Let's look at the second issue first.
> 
> WSJT-X doesn't report the absolute signal strength ... it reports the signal 
> strength relative to a (if I remember correctly) 2.5 KHz bandwidth at the 
> receiving location.  As an example, if your local noise level is 10 dB higher 
> than most other locations (easily possible), your transmit reports as 
> measured at the other end are going to be 10 dB better than the receive 
> reports you tell the other station.  Your local noise could be higher due to 
> many possible factors ... local industrial activity,  a neighbor with an 
> older plasma TV, somebody nearby using a welder, poor quality LED lights, a 
> noisy internet router, etc.
> 
> The same thing might be causing your first problem if your local noise level 
> isn't consistent, which it probably isn't.  It is possible that sometimes you 
> simply don't hear the other station's reply.  In your example, you wouldn't 
> know if the other station had already sent R-02 previously if your noise 
> level had popped up briefly and covered it up.  WSJT-X doesn't tell you how 
> many times the other station had sent the same report.  You say it only 
> happens rarely, so maybe the fact that doing something else fixes the problem 
> is simply coincidence based upon small sample size.  
> 
> Obviously I cannot say for certain ... I am just trying to offer helpful 
> speculation.  But a higher than typical noise level at your location ... for 
> any reason ... could produce similar symptoms.
> 
> I have the opposite "problem".  The noise level at my QTH is very low, so I 
> often give better reports than I receive and I often hear (read) 
> transmissions from other stations who can't hear me even though I have good 
> antennas and live on a steep hillside.  For the same signal strength each 
> direction a station I can consistently read  at -22 or -24 will usually not 
> be able to decode me.
> 
> Best regards,
> Dave   AB7E
> 

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Re: [wsjt-devel] 60 Hz + harmonics sidebands on FT8 signals? (Paul Kube)

[Jim Brown]

I would certainly hope that you would want it for your personal safety, 
and for the non-destruction of your home and your equipment! It also 
happens that proper bonding of equipment, and obtaining power for all 
interconnected equipment from outlets that share the same green wire, 
minimizes hum, buzz, and RFI. That is the focus of my advice.


Another observation. The prevalence of lightning varies widely around 
the world, as shown on this map. Those of living in high frequency 
strike areas pay a lot more attention to it than do others.


https://geology.com/articles/lightning-map.shtml
http://lightningsafety.com/nlsi_info/lightningmaps/US_FD_Lightning.pdf
http://lightningsafety.com/nlsi_info/lightningmaps/worldlightning.html

73, Jim K9YC

On 8/14/2019 4:52 AM, Paul Randall wrote:
There is no requirement for lightning protection in all buildings in the 
UK although there are laws which govern businesses separately. As a 
result, the lightning protection in the average domestic UK home 
approximates to “none at all”,




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Re: [wsjt-devel] Decoding issues

[David Gilbert]

Greetings Steinar.

It seems to me that both of your issues could be caused by a high local 
noise level at your end.  Let's look at the second issue first.


WSJT-X doesn't report the absolute signal strength ... it reports the 
signal strength relative to a (if I remember correctly) 2.5 KHz 
bandwidth at the receiving location.  As an example, if your local noise 
level is 10 dB higher than most other locations (easily possible), your 
transmit reports as measured at the other end are going to be 10 dB 
better than the receive reports you tell the other station.  Your local 
noise could be higher due to many possible factors ... local industrial 
activity,  a neighbor with an older plasma TV, somebody nearby using a 
welder, poor quality LED lights, a noisy internet router, etc.


The same thing might be causing your first problem if your local noise 
level isn't consistent, which it probably isn't.  It is possible that 
sometimes you simply don't hear the other station's reply.  In your 
example, you wouldn't know if the other station had already sent R-02 
previously if your noise level had popped up briefly and covered it up.  
WSJT-X doesn't tell you how many times the other station had sent the 
same report.  You say it only happens rarely, so maybe the fact that 
doing something else fixes the problem is simply coincidence based upon 
small sample size.


Obviously I cannot say for certain ... I am just trying to offer helpful 
speculation.  But a higher than typical noise level at your location ... 
for any reason ... could produce similar symptoms.


I have the opposite "problem".  The noise level at my QTH is very low, 
so I often give better reports than I receive and I often hear (read) 
transmissions from other stations who can't hear me even though I have 
good antennas and live on a steep hillside.  For the same signal 
strength each direction a station I can consistently read  at -22 or -24 
will usually not be able to decode me.


Best regards,
Dave   AB7E



On 8/14/2019 5:23 AM, Steinar Fremme via wsjt-devel wrote:


Hello all!
Sorry if this issue has ben taken up before, but after looking into 
old messages - I don’t find any


I have used WSJT-X on my Mac now for 6 months and logged more than 
5000 FT8 entries in my logbook by it.


But there is one thing I’m not able to find out why happening .

When a station is calling me - I do reply by ex. Foo bar -14 for 
example 5 times - and nothing happens - I just click CQ again and the 
first message is a reply from the calling station by R-02
It seems to me that the decoding is somewhat stuck - and when I just 
do something - calling a new CQ - or answering another station - then 
it decodes the first one - straight away
I can also just change my frequency a little - one down and one up 
again - just do something


It dos not happen often 0-5 times a day - and just hitting CQ works 
every time ?


I find it happens more often now in the v2.1.0 than in the older 
versions , but as it could go days between this is happening - its not 
so easy to find a red tread in this


I’m using v2.1.0 from my IC-7851 into my iMac 4.2GHz Intel Core i7
This iMac is dedicated for this use and except for MacLoggerDX - there 
is no other prowesses / programs running.


I’m also a little concerned by the receiving “sensibility” - as I see 
from   pskreporter that I’m heard by 10+ times as many as I can receive.
I do decode down to -22 -24 , but when I get the report - I always 
have a better TX report than I can give at my RX report.

And yes - I’m only running 100W (sometimes 200W)
And yes - it could be the antenna, but I have the same TX/RX 
differences on all my 3 antennas - 160m loop, vertical and 2-3 element 
beam
Have measured the RX of the radio - and it's up to spec - so its not 
the radio


So what makes the ability to receive and decode - Antenna - radio - and ?



Regards
Steinar Fremme

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[wsjt-devel] Multi-rate instead of multi-tone

[David Jaffe]

I watched Ed’s talk anout the WW digi contest. I had the following thought, 
which may be naive. I’m new to the list so maybe this has already been 
suggested and rejected , but here goes

 I understand why we don’t want numerous contesters doing F/H. But It occurs to 
me that another way to make multiple Qs in a given time slot would be to double 
the rate , as FT4 did relative to Ft8.  I.e instead of two signals in parallel, 
have two in series at twice the rate.   Two such “Ft2” Qs could fit in one FT4 
slot and four could fit in one ft8 slot.  Of course it would mean running a 
parallel decoder (or two). Or perhaps a single decoder could be looking for 1x, 
2x and 4x at the same time.  

There would be a sacrifice in SnR but that happens with Fox/hound also, as the 
Transmit power is halved or quartered.and the widening of the skirts would be 
comparable to ft8->FT4 , not to F/H.  

Again apologies if this suggestion is silly, has been considered and rejected , 
or whatever other reason it’s not of interest , but thought I’d throw it out 
there

Dave
K6daj 

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Re: [wsjt-devel] Decoding issues

[Claude Frantz]

On 8/14/19 2:23 PM, Steinar Fremme via wsjt-devel wrote:

Hi Steinar & all,

When a station is calling me - I do reply by ex. Foo bar -14 for example 
5 times - and nothing happens - I just click CQ again and the first 
message is a reply from the calling station by R-02
It seems to me that the decoding is somewhat stuck - and when I just do 
something - calling a new CQ - or answering another station - then it 
decodes the first one - straight away


Please note that not all sent messages can always be decoded at the 
targeted station. This apply in both directions. Note also that the 
propagation is not always of the same quality in both direction.



It dos not happen often 0-5 times a day


IMHO, this is not a pathologic situation.


and just hitting CQ works every time ?


The station responding to CQ has always heard your signal, this is sure. 
This situation is a little bit different than the previously cited one.


I’m also a little concerned by the receiving “sensibility” - as I see 
from   pskreporter that I’m heard by 10+ times as many as I can receive.
I do decode down to -22 -24 , but when I get the report - I always have 
a better TX report than I can give at my RX report.


The propagation is not always of the same quality in both direction. The 
difference can be so big, that signals can only be decoded in one 
direction, making QSO's impossible. When using pskreporter, you can 
observe such situations very well.


Call CQ and observe minutes later on pskreporter where your signal has 
been heard. It's futile to call stations in regions from where your 
signal has not been reported. But the propagation can change quickly.



So what makes the ability to receive and decode - Antenna - radio - and ?


... and the operator.

Best wishes,
Claude (DJ0OT)


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[wsjt-devel] Decoding issues

[Steinar Fremme via wsjt-devel]

Hello all!
Sorry if this issue has ben taken up before, but after looking into old 
messages - I don’t find any

I have used WSJT-X on my Mac now for 6 months and logged more than 5000 FT8 
entries in my logbook by it.

But there is one thing I’m not able to find out why happening .

When a station is calling me - I do reply by ex. Foo bar -14 for example 5 
times - and nothing happens - I just click CQ again and the first message is a 
reply from the calling station by R-02
It seems to me that the decoding is somewhat stuck - and when I just do 
something - calling a new CQ - or answering another station - then it decodes 
the first one - straight away
I can also just change my frequency a little - one down and one up again - just 
do something  

It dos not happen often 0-5 times a day - and just hitting CQ works every time ?

I find it happens more often now in the v2.1.0 than in the older versions , but 
as it could go days between this is happening - its not so easy to find a red 
tread in this

I’m using v2.1.0 from my IC-7851 into my iMac 4.2GHz Intel Core i7
This iMac is dedicated for this use and except for MacLoggerDX - there is no 
other prowesses / programs running.

I’m also a little concerned by the receiving “sensibility” - as I see from   
pskreporter that I’m heard by 10+ times as many as I can receive.  
I do decode down to -22 -24 , but when I get the report - I always have a 
better TX report than I can give at my RX report. 
And yes - I’m only running 100W (sometimes 200W)
And yes - it could be the antenna, but I have the same TX/RX differences on all 
my 3 antennas - 160m loop, vertical and 2-3 element beam 
Have measured the RX of the radio - and it's up to spec - so its not the radio 

So what makes the ability to receive and decode - Antenna - radio - and ? 



Regards
Steinar Fremme

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Re: [wsjt-devel] 60 Hz + harmonics sidebands on FT8 signals? (Paul Kube)

[Paul Randall]

Jim

There is no requirement for lightning protection in all buildings in the UK 
although there are laws which govern businesses separately. As a result, the 
lightning protection in the average domestic UK home approximates to “none at 
all”, as Douglas Adams would say.

Even with the open invitation of overhead power wire, telephone wire, satellite 
or TV aerial, installers bring the wires direct into the property with no 
ground or ground bonding. Most people get away with it and insurance companies 
make no requirements.

There are strict requirements for certification of electrical installers and 
installations and as a plain resident the general rule is “don’t mess with the 
power wiring Paul”. If I do my property may not pass the electrical inspection 
needed before it can be sold. This is apart from any other consequence and 
sadly I could find nothing in the Laws of Physics to make my trip work again if 
I bypass it.



73 Paul G3NJV



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From: Jim Brown 
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 9:13:18 PM
To: WSJT software development 
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] 60 Hz + harmonics sidebands on FT8 signals? (Paul 
Kube)

Last I looked, the Laws of Physics still govern what happens when
lightning strikes. We have a similar issue with common practice by wired
telephone installers here in the former colonies failing to properly
bond their installations.

My recommendations are in line with those laws and the National Electric
Code, which has been adopted by local authorities through nearly all of
North America, and thus carries the force of law. If you find conflict
with my recommendations, I suggest that you may not fully understand them.

73, Jim K9YC

On 8/12/2019 7:26 PM, Paul Randall wrote:
> The advice is written and in the UK would render you liable to
> litigation in the event of an accident. That is why I say it is unwise.



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