Re: [XeTeX] [tex-live] XeTeX/TeX Live : Setting the default language
On Fri, 4 Nov 2011, Reinhard Kotucha wrote: > As far as paper size is concerned, as mentioned by Matthew Skala, this > information belongs into each document too. However, there are some > situations where default settings can be useful though, for instance > if you exchange TeX source files with Americans. However, this > requires a well designed page layout which yields good results on > both, A4 and letter paper. Paper size is special because if you compile your document for the wrong paper size and send it to a printer, at many sites that will cause the printer to stall and demand operator attention while other documents pile up in the queue. Incorrect hyphenation doesn't have that effect. In a multiuser environment it's a given that people *will* leave things on the defaults, whatever those may be; and you can't have queue stalls many times every day just to preserve the purity of the "metadata in every document" model. Administrators will implement a site-local default for paper size whether they should or not. Getting the right set of hyphenation patterns can be more safely left to the users. -- Matthew Skala msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca People before principles. http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/ -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] [tex-live] XeTeX/TeX Live : Setting the default language
On 2011-11-04 at 10:21:41 +, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote: > Suggestion for TeX Live installation 2012 : > Ask the user for his or preferred language setting, > and make that the default. That would break many existing documents. At least those written in US English. The information in which language a document is written and which input encoding is used has to be specified within a document unconditionally. Everything else would make documents unportable. Therefore, and because TeX Live is a multi-user system, such a default is not useful. I also regard the default setting we already have rather as a fallback than a default, though even a fallback doesn't make sense here. The default setting was simply inherited from Knuth's TeX. As far as paper size is concerned, as mentioned by Matthew Skala, this information belongs into each document too. However, there are some situations where default settings can be useful though, for instance if you exchange TeX source files with Americans. However, this requires a well designed page layout which yields good results on both, A4 and letter paper. But this is an exception. In all other cases documents should be self-contained, i.e. provide all information needed to compile them. Since you are also typesetting documents in other languages than "British", I suppose that changing the default language just saves you one line of code in _some_ of your documents. But more important, in TeX Live there is no reasonable way to provide different defaults for different users. The only way to do that is to provide per-user format files, but this would cause more problems than it solves. Bad enough that we can't prevent users from creating them accidentally. Regards, Reinhard -- Reinhard Kotucha Phone: +49-511-3373112 Marschnerstr. 25 D-30167 Hannover mailto:reinhard.kotu...@web.de Microsoft isn't the answer. Microsoft is the question, and the answer is NO. -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] [tex-live] XeTeX/TeX Live : Setting the default language
Khaled Hosny wrote: > No idea, but I was not thinking about that, any way AFAIK Lorem Impsum > is Latin so using it to test English hyphenation makes no sense > (incidentally, someone at Mozilla thought it would be good idea[1].) not exactly: lorem ipsum "looks like" latin. (it includes several latin words, but not all of its words are latin. > [1] https://developer.mozilla.org/samples/cssref/hyphens.html -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] [tex-live] XeTeX/TeX Live : Setting the default language
No idea, but I was not thinking about that, any way AFAIK Lorem Impsum
is Latin so using it to test English hyphenation makes no sense
(incidentally, someone at Mozilla thought it would be good idea[1].)
[1] https://developer.mozilla.org/samples/cssref/hyphens.html
Regards,
Khaled
On Sat, Nov 05, 2011 at 12:26:20AM +1100, Vafa Khalighi wrote:
> No that was not what I meant. I meant what change does the knuth.tex text
> makes
> to the number of hyphenation that you get? do you get more hyphenetaion with
> knuth.tex than using Lorem Impsum. By Lorem Ipsum, I did not mean that there
> is
> a tex file but only meant the text itself as in http://lipsum.com/
>
> I was only curious about the difference.
>
> On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 12:21 AM, Khaled Hosny wrote:
>
> \input Lorem Ipsum
> \bye
>
> Does not work here.
>
> Regards,
> Khaled
>
> On Sat, Nov 05, 2011 at 12:16:35AM +1100, Vafa Khalighi wrote:
> > what change does that make if one uses Lorem Ipsum... instead knuth.tex?
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 12:08 AM, Khaled Hosny
> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 04, 2011 at 10:21:41AM +, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster,
> Ret'd)
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Robin Fairbairns wrote:
> > >
> > > >except phil doesn't use latex, so can't use polyglossia.
> > >
> > > True. But Khaled Hosny's solution was perfect:
> > >
> > > >\input knuth
> > > >\uselanguage{british} % or ukenglish or UKenglish, all synonyms
> > > >\input knuth
> > > >\bye
> > >
> > > once I realised that "\input Knuth" was neither required
> > > nor productive !
> >
> > Sorry, that was a bit of ConTeXtish habit of using knuth.tex as a
> test
> > and I thought it is obvious (now I realise that it is even part of
> > ConTeXt and you might not even have it unless you installed
> ConTeXt).
> >
> > Regards,
> > Khaled
> >
> >
>
>
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Re: [XeTeX] [tex-live] XeTeX/TeX Live : Setting the default language
Heiko Oberdiek wrote:
And if the British author visits Germany he happily uses
\BenutzedieSprache{Englisch}
No, wait, without spaces???
\Befehlsnamensstart Benutze die Sprache\Befehlsnamenende{Englisch}
;-))
Only if he has launched the binary by typing :
\Teschhh
:-)
(and then, of course, he must use \BenutzedieSprache {britische Sprache})
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Re: [XeTeX] [tex-live] XeTeX/TeX Live : Setting the default language
On Fri, Nov 04, 2011 at 02:16:21PM +0100, Heiko Oberdiek wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 04, 2011 at 10:52:37AM +, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)
> wrote:
>
> > Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> >
> > >Now imagine that you send your document to a friend to make some final
> > >corrections& submit PDF for printing ... and that friend has set
> > >French or Russian as his default/preferred language, so the printing
> > >house will print the document typeset with Russian hyphenation
> > >patterns. Wouldn't that be nice?
> >
> > A document for export can contain Khaled's recommended :
> >
> > \uselanguage {}
> >
> > A document solely for internal use does not require one,
> > nor should one need to be added : the installer should
> > ask the user whether it should respect his or her regional
> > settings ("locale", in Unix-speak, I believe).
>
> And if the British author visits Germany he happily uses
>
> \BenutzedieSprache{Englisch}
>
> No, wait, without spaces???
>
> \Befehlsnamensstart Benutze die Sprache\Befehlsnamenende{Englisch}
>
> ;-))
ConTeXt had such localised interfaces since day zero I think, and it
continues to have now, so I don't think it is a problem, though I don't
see how this is related to the issue Philip is raising.
Regards,
Khaled
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Re: [XeTeX] [tex-live] XeTeX/TeX Live : Setting the default language
No that was not what I meant. I meant what change does the knuth.tex text
makes to the number of hyphenation that you get? do you get more
hyphenetaion with knuth.tex than using Lorem Impsum. By Lorem Ipsum, I did
not mean that there is a tex file but only meant the text itself as in
http://lipsum.com/
I was only curious about the difference.
On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 12:21 AM, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> \input Lorem Ipsum
> \bye
>
> Does not work here.
>
> Regards,
> Khaled
>
> On Sat, Nov 05, 2011 at 12:16:35AM +1100, Vafa Khalighi wrote:
> > what change does that make if one uses Lorem Ipsum... instead knuth.tex?
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 12:08 AM, Khaled Hosny
> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 04, 2011 at 10:21:41AM +, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster,
> Ret'd)
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Robin Fairbairns wrote:
> > >
> > > >except phil doesn't use latex, so can't use polyglossia.
> > >
> > > True. But Khaled Hosny's solution was perfect:
> > >
> > > >\input knuth
> > > >\uselanguage{british} % or ukenglish or UKenglish, all synonyms
> > > >\input knuth
> > > >\bye
> > >
> > > once I realised that "\input Knuth" was neither required
> > > nor productive !
> >
> > Sorry, that was a bit of ConTeXtish habit of using knuth.tex as a
> test
> > and I thought it is obvious (now I realise that it is even part of
> > ConTeXt and you might not even have it unless you installed ConTeXt).
> >
> > Regards,
> > Khaled
> >
> >
>
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Re: [XeTeX] [tex-live] XeTeX/TeX Live : Setting the default language
No that was not what I meant. I meant what change does the knuth.tex text
makes to the number of hyphenation that you get? do you get more
hyphenetaion with knuth.tex than using Lorem Impsum. By Lorem Ipsum, I did
not mean that there is a tex file but only meant the text itself as in
http://lipsum.com/
I was only curious about the difference.
On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 12:21 AM, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> \input Lorem Ipsum
> \bye
>
> Does not work here.
>
> Regards,
> Khaled
>
> On Sat, Nov 05, 2011 at 12:16:35AM +1100, Vafa Khalighi wrote:
> > what change does that make if one uses Lorem Ipsum... instead knuth.tex?
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 12:08 AM, Khaled Hosny
> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 04, 2011 at 10:21:41AM +, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster,
> Ret'd)
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Robin Fairbairns wrote:
> > >
> > > >except phil doesn't use latex, so can't use polyglossia.
> > >
> > > True. But Khaled Hosny's solution was perfect:
> > >
> > > >\input knuth
> > > >\uselanguage{british} % or ukenglish or UKenglish, all synonyms
> > > >\input knuth
> > > >\bye
> > >
> > > once I realised that "\input Knuth" was neither required
> > > nor productive !
> >
> > Sorry, that was a bit of ConTeXtish habit of using knuth.tex as a
> test
> > and I thought it is obvious (now I realise that it is even part of
> > ConTeXt and you might not even have it unless you installed ConTeXt).
> >
> > Regards,
> > Khaled
> >
> >
>
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Re: [XeTeX] [tex-live] XeTeX/TeX Live : Setting the default language
\input Lorem Ipsum
\bye
Does not work here.
Regards,
Khaled
On Sat, Nov 05, 2011 at 12:16:35AM +1100, Vafa Khalighi wrote:
> what change does that make if one uses Lorem Ipsum... instead knuth.tex?
>
> On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 12:08 AM, Khaled Hosny wrote:
>
> On Fri, Nov 04, 2011 at 10:21:41AM +, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Robin Fairbairns wrote:
> >
> > >except phil doesn't use latex, so can't use polyglossia.
> >
> > True. But Khaled Hosny's solution was perfect:
> >
> > >\input knuth
> > >\uselanguage{british} % or ukenglish or UKenglish, all synonyms
> > >\input knuth
> > >\bye
> >
> > once I realised that "\input Knuth" was neither required
> > nor productive !
>
> Sorry, that was a bit of ConTeXtish habit of using knuth.tex as a test
> and I thought it is obvious (now I realise that it is even part of
> ConTeXt and you might not even have it unless you installed ConTeXt).
>
> Regards,
> Khaled
>
>
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Re: [XeTeX] [tex-live] XeTeX/TeX Live : Setting the default language
On Fri, Nov 04, 2011 at 10:52:37AM +, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)
wrote:
> Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>
> >Now imagine that you send your document to a friend to make some final
> >corrections& submit PDF for printing ... and that friend has set
> >French or Russian as his default/preferred language, so the printing
> >house will print the document typeset with Russian hyphenation
> >patterns. Wouldn't that be nice?
>
> A document for export can contain Khaled's recommended :
>
> \uselanguage {}
>
> A document solely for internal use does not require one,
> nor should one need to be added : the installer should
> ask the user whether it should respect his or her regional
> settings ("locale", in Unix-speak, I believe).
And if the British author visits Germany he happily uses
\BenutzedieSprache{Englisch}
No, wait, without spaces???
\Befehlsnamensstart Benutze die Sprache\Befehlsnamenende{Englisch}
;-))
Yours sincerely
Heiko Oberdiek
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Re: [XeTeX] [tex-live] XeTeX/TeX Live : Setting the default language
what change does that make if one uses Lorem Ipsum... instead knuth.tex?
On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 12:08 AM, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 04, 2011 at 10:21:41AM +, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Robin Fairbairns wrote:
> >
> > >except phil doesn't use latex, so can't use polyglossia.
> >
> > True. But Khaled Hosny's solution was perfect:
> >
> > >\input knuth
> > >\uselanguage{british} % or ukenglish or UKenglish, all synonyms
> > >\input knuth
> > >\bye
> >
> > once I realised that "\input Knuth" was neither required
> > nor productive !
>
> Sorry, that was a bit of ConTeXtish habit of using knuth.tex as a test
> and I thought it is obvious (now I realise that it is even part of
> ConTeXt and you might not even have it unless you installed ConTeXt).
>
> Regards,
> Khaled
>
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Re: [XeTeX] [tex-live] XeTeX/TeX Live : Setting the default language
On Fri, Nov 04, 2011 at 10:21:41AM +, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd)
wrote:
>
>
> Robin Fairbairns wrote:
>
> >except phil doesn't use latex, so can't use polyglossia.
>
> True. But Khaled Hosny's solution was perfect:
>
> >\input knuth
> >\uselanguage{british} % or ukenglish or UKenglish, all synonyms
> >\input knuth
> >\bye
>
> once I realised that "\input Knuth" was neither required
> nor productive !
Sorry, that was a bit of ConTeXtish habit of using knuth.tex as a test
and I thought it is obvious (now I realise that it is even part of
ConTeXt and you might not even have it unless you installed ConTeXt).
Regards,
Khaled
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Re: [XeTeX] [tex-live] XeTeX/TeX Live : Setting the default language
On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 13:17, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote: > > "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with TeX, and the Word was > TeX." ?! It might be that TeX was before Word ;) ... > TeX is, traditionally, consistent across > installations; what I am suggesting is that there is > a case for making it consistent with the way that other > applications operate within a single location, by (optionally) > honouring the user's regional settings / locale ... ... but even Word stores language information into the document (based on whatever heuristics - language of installation, keyboard being used ...). If you try to print a document created on British computer in USA, you will still get British settings, while this is not the case in what you are trying to achieve. You might be using British English only, but in general your approach would not even work for one-user environment. I'm producing approximately 50% of written material in English and the other half in my mother tongue. If TeX would ask me for default language and encoding, I would happily choose Slovenian (and ISO Latin 2 or CP1250 before Unicode existed) and happily break approximately half of my own documents, and each single document created by others. The only "sane" way to achieve what you are proposing would be *TeX Editor* automatically inserting language to you document header based on current language environment or keyboard that is being used. Mojca -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] [tex-live] XeTeX/TeX Live : Setting the default language
Ross Moore wrote: Sorry Phil, but I agree with Mojca on this one. I too can appreciate Mojca's perspective ... Has it not always been this way in the TeX word? "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with TeX, and the Word was TeX." ?! Is not this consistency in TeX one of its major strengths? Yes, it is, which is why I say I can appreciate Mojca's perspective. But consistency can be interpreted in more than one way : TeX is, traditionally, consistent across installations; what I am suggesting is that there is a case for making it consistent with the way that other applications operate within a single location, by (optionally) honouring the user's regional settings / locale ... I've not seen any compelling reason to change this. My real reason for suggesting this was the Law of Least Surprise. I was genuinely surprised when I found that a book, written by a British author, and typeset on a British computer, was using American rules for hyphenation. ** Phil. -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] [tex-live] XeTeX/TeX Live : Setting the default language
On Fri, 4 Nov 2011, Mojca Miklavec wrote: > corrections & submit PDF for printing ... and that friend has set > French or Russian as his default/preferred language, so the printing > house will print the document typeset with Russian hyphenation > patterns. Wouldn't that be nice? This kind of problem already exists for anyone who exchanges documents between North America and the rest of the world, because of default A4 versus letter paper sizes. That's bad enough. You're right that adding hyphenation patterns as yet another thing we have to negotiate and carefully override on every document, wouldn't be a good idea. -- Matthew Skala msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca People before principles. http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/ -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] [tex-live] XeTeX/TeX Live : Setting the default language
Hi Phil,
On 04/11/2011, at 9:52 PM, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote:
> Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>
>> Now imagine that you send your document to a friend to make some final
>> corrections& submit PDF for printing ... and that friend has set
>> French or Russian as his default/preferred language, so the printing
>> house will print the document typeset with Russian hyphenation
>> patterns. Wouldn't that be nice?
>
> A document for export can contain Khaled's recommended :
>
> \uselanguage {}
>
> A document solely for internal use does not require one,
> nor should one need to be added : the installer should
> ask the user whether it should respect his or her regional
> settings ("locale", in Unix-speak, I believe).
Sorry Phil, but I agree with Mojca on this one.
The average (La)TeX user will not understand the issue,
and will not make the right choice when given one at
installation time, and certainly will not know to put
this extra \uselanguage{...} line when needed, unless that
was required on their own system when preparing the document.
So what Mojca envisions would most certainly happen.
Much and all as it may seem English-centric, or US-biased,
I'd agree that every document that does not just follow
the world-wide bog-standard LaTeX installation *should*
specify the language explicitly in the document, either
through use of Babel or Polyglossia or other equivalent method.
Those "power" users who wish to set up their defaults
differently can certainly do so. It is then up to them
to make sure that they do things correctly when sending
documents to others to process.
Has it not always been this way in the TeX word?
Is not this consistency in TeX one of its major strengths?
I've not seen any compelling reason to change this.
>
> ** Phil.
All the best,
Ross
Ross Moore ross.mo...@mq.edu.au
Mathematics Department office: E7A-419
Macquarie University tel: +61 (0)2 9850 8955
Sydney, Australia 2109 fax: +61 (0)2 9850 8114
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Re: [XeTeX] [tex-live] XeTeX/TeX Live : Setting the default language
Mojca Miklavec wrote:
Now imagine that you send your document to a friend to make some final
corrections& submit PDF for printing ... and that friend has set
French or Russian as his default/preferred language, so the printing
house will print the document typeset with Russian hyphenation
patterns. Wouldn't that be nice?
A document for export can contain Khaled's recommended :
\uselanguage {}
A document solely for internal use does not require one,
nor should one need to be added : the installer should
ask the user whether it should respect his or her regional
settings ("locale", in Unix-speak, I believe).
** Phil.
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Re: [XeTeX] [tex-live] XeTeX/TeX Live : Setting the default language
On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 11:21, Philip TAYLOR (Webmaster, Ret'd) wrote: > > Suggestion for TeX Live installation 2012 : > Ask the user for his or preferred language setting, > and make that the default. Now imagine that you send your document to a friend to make some final corrections & submit PDF for printing ... and that friend has set French or Russian as his default/preferred language, so the printing house will print the document typeset with Russian hyphenation patterns. Wouldn't that be nice? Mojca -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] [tex-live] XeTeX/TeX Live : Setting the default language
Robin Fairbairns wrote:
except phil doesn't use latex, so can't use polyglossia.
True. But Khaled Hosny's solution was perfect:
\input knuth
\uselanguage{british} % or ukenglish or UKenglish, all synonyms
\input knuth
\bye
once I realised that "\input Knuth" was neither required
nor productive !
Suggestion for TeX Live installation 2012 :
Ask the user for his or preferred language setting,
and make that the default.
** Phil.
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Re: [XeTeX] [tex-live] XeTeX/TeX Live : Setting the default language
Zdenek Wagner wrote: > 2011/11/3 Arthur Reutenauer : > > Just edit your language.def file. Actually, you can create a one-line > > file that says "british loadhyph-en-gb.tex" (not hyph-en-gb.tex!) and > > create the format with fmtutil. > > The British hyphenation patterns are loaded in the XeLaTeX format so > that you can just switch them using Polyglossia. They are also loaded > in plain XeTeX (unless it was deselected at TL install time). You have > to look into xetex.log, find the corresponding number and then assign > it to \language, it is not necessary to build a format. except phil doesn't use latex, so can't use polyglossia. -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] [tex-live] XeTeX/TeX Live : Setting the default language
Khaled Hosny wrote:
Even simpler (assuming the pattern is loaded in the format):
\input knuth
\uselanguage{british} % or ukenglish or UKenglish, all synonyms
\input knuth
\bye
Works for all etex based engines.
Excellent, thank you Khaled. Of course, it took me
a minute or two to discover that \input Knuth was
pulling in some sample text and not the definition
of \uselanguage ! And, sadly, "British" is not
a synonym of "british", even though I can think of
no context in which it would ever be spelled with
a lower-case "b" ...
** Phil.
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Re: [XeTeX] [tex-live] XeTeX/TeX Live : Setting the default language
On Thu, Nov 03, 2011 at 06:46:12PM +0100, Zdenek Wagner wrote:
> 2011/11/3 Arthur Reutenauer :
> > Just edit your language.def file. Actually, you can create a one-line
> > file that says "british loadhyph-en-gb.tex" (not hyph-en-gb.tex!) and
> > create the format with fmtutil.
> >
> The British hyphenation patterns are loaded in the XeLaTeX format so
> that you can just switch them using Polyglossia. They are also loaded
> in plain XeTeX (unless it was deselected at TL install time). You have
> to look into xetex.log, find the corresponding number and then assign
> it to \language, it is not necessary to build a format.
Even simpler (assuming the pattern is loaded in the format):
\input knuth
\uselanguage{british} % or ukenglish or UKenglish, all synonyms
\input knuth
\bye
Works for all etex based engines.
Regards,
Khaled
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Re: [XeTeX] [tex-live] XeTeX/TeX Live : Setting the default language
Merci, Arthur ! Arthur Reutenauer wrote: Just edit your language.def file. Actually, you can create a one-line file that says "british loadhyph-en-gb.tex" (not hyph-en-gb.tex!) and create the format with fmtutil. Arthur -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] [tex-live] XeTeX/TeX Live : Setting the default language
2011/11/3 Arthur Reutenauer : > Just edit your language.def file. Actually, you can create a one-line > file that says "british loadhyph-en-gb.tex" (not hyph-en-gb.tex!) and > create the format with fmtutil. > The British hyphenation patterns are loaded in the XeLaTeX format so that you can just switch them using Polyglossia. They are also loaded in plain XeTeX (unless it was deselected at TL install time). You have to look into xetex.log, find the corresponding number and then assign it to \language, it is not necessary to build a format. > Arthur > -- Zdeněk Wagner http://hroch486.icpf.cas.cz/wagner/ http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
