Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?
Hi, On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 01:25:08AM +0100, olafbuddenha...@gmx.net wrote: > On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 09:55:22AM +1000, Peter Hutterer wrote: > > If you don't want a session manager or you prefer a different desktop > > environment - you're on your own. > > Let me remind you that GNOME is not an operating system. It is just a > frontend. > > It is nice if it provides a nice shiny tool to configure stuff; but it > has no business *storing*, and *applying* such settings, which don't > really have anything to do with GNOME at all. These should be pushed > down to some generic infrastructure, which is not desktop-specific, and > in fact not X-specific at all. > > Unfortunately, it appears that such a generic session-aware hotplug > infrastructure is yet to be invented... I'm sure both GNOME and KDE would love you for writing one that both had no complaints with, and was perfectly integrated with both. And Xfce. And Moblin. And Maemo. And fvwm2, and fluxbox, and my 'sudo Xorg :0 -noreset &| ~/bin/de &|'. Looking forward to it! :) Cheers, Daniel pgpWm7vowqlqr.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?
And thus marks the last time I attempt to be sassy on my Droid. But as I was saying, the Generic Userspace Configuration Kit. If we're going to add a Session Hotplug Infrastructure Tasklet, which is desktop-agnostic, in order to configure the X server across multiple platforms, you're going to need a Generic Userspace Configuration Kit to talk to the kernel, since that's where the devices live. Being desktop-aware has a lot of benefits, mostly in the realm of policy control and convenience, and letting the DE configure things is not as bad as, say, having GNOME-specific code in the server. On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 9:34 AM, Corbin Simpson wrote: > You're right. We need a Generic Userspace Configuration Kit, which could > talk to the Session Hotplug Infrastucture > > Posting from a mobile, pardon my terseness. ~ C. > > On Dec 2, 2009 5:09 AM, wrote: > > Hi, > > On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 09:55:22AM +1000, Peter Hutterer wrote: > If you > don't want a session mana... > > Let me remind you that GNOME is not an operating system. It is just a > frontend. > > It is nice if it provides a nice shiny tool to configure stuff; but it > has no business *storing*, and *applying* such settings, which don't > really have anything to do with GNOME at all. These should be pushed > down to some generic infrastructure, which is not desktop-specific, and > in fact not X-specific at all. > > Unfortunately, it appears that such a generic session-aware hotplug > infrastructure is yet to be invented... > > -antrik- > > ___ xorg mailing list > xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://... -- Only fools are easily impressed by what is only barely beyond their reach. ~ Unknown Corbin Simpson ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?
You're right. We need a Generic Userspace Configuration Kit, which could talk to the Session Hotplug Infrastucture Posting from a mobile, pardon my terseness. ~ C. On Dec 2, 2009 5:09 AM, wrote: Hi, On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 09:55:22AM +1000, Peter Hutterer wrote: > If you don't want a session mana... Let me remind you that GNOME is not an operating system. It is just a frontend. It is nice if it provides a nice shiny tool to configure stuff; but it has no business *storing*, and *applying* such settings, which don't really have anything to do with GNOME at all. These should be pushed down to some generic infrastructure, which is not desktop-specific, and in fact not X-specific at all. Unfortunately, it appears that such a generic session-aware hotplug infrastructure is yet to be invented... -antrik- ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://... ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?
Hi, On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 09:55:22AM +1000, Peter Hutterer wrote: > If you don't want a session manager or you prefer a different desktop > environment - you're on your own. Let me remind you that GNOME is not an operating system. It is just a frontend. It is nice if it provides a nice shiny tool to configure stuff; but it has no business *storing*, and *applying* such settings, which don't really have anything to do with GNOME at all. These should be pushed down to some generic infrastructure, which is not desktop-specific, and in fact not X-specific at all. Unfortunately, it appears that such a generic session-aware hotplug infrastructure is yet to be invented... -antrik- ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?
On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 3:55 PM, Peter Hutterer wrote: > On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 09:34:38AM -0500, Tom Horsley wrote: >> On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:19:52 -0500 >> Tom Horsley wrote: >> >> > That might be the very thing! There is even a fedora package >> > for it. I'm off to crank it up and see if I can get it >> > to work they way I want. Thanks! >> >> Unfortunately, just like gnome-mouse-properties, there is >> nothing in this tool that will handle the button mapping or >> drag lock changes I want :-(. > > As with much of input, we've been in a transitional phase for the last years > to turn from the old static system into a more flexible and dynamic one. X > is on the bottom of the stack, so any change needs to be reflected in the > upper layers - and they're not necessarily there yet. > > We're slowly catching up, but not as quick as some would like us and many > options are still not exposed - drag lock being one example. > > So here's the cardhouse: > As you said, the single xorg.conf file isn't really suited to evdev (or the > other way round). The input system is now aimed at per-device, per-session > (runtime) configuration. Static configuration is possible, but discouraged. > You can dop keys into the HAL configuration, but that'll go away eventually > with udev. > The best proposal for static configuration were Dan's xorg.conf.d patches > but I don't know how much they have progressed in the last months. Maybe Dan > can comment on that? Just finished it yesterday (been too busy), and it seems to work correctly. I'll post it shortly. -- Dan ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?
On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 11:02:23AM +1100, Timothy S. Nelson wrote: > On Fri, 27 Nov 2009, Peter Hutterer wrote: > > >On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 09:34:38AM -0500, Tom Horsley wrote: > >>On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:19:52 -0500 > >>Tom Horsley wrote: > >> > >>>That might be the very thing! There is even a fedora package > >>>for it. I'm off to crank it up and see if I can get it > >>>to work they way I want. Thanks! > >> > >>Unfortunately, just like gnome-mouse-properties, there is > >>nothing in this tool that will handle the button mapping or > >>drag lock changes I want :-(. > > > >As with much of input, we've been in a transitional phase for the last years > >to turn from the old static system into a more flexible and dynamic one. X > >is on the bottom of the stack, so any change needs to be reflected in the > >upper layers - and they're not necessarily there yet. > > > >We're slowly catching up, but not as quick as some would like us and many > >options are still not exposed - drag lock being one example. > > > >So here's the cardhouse: > >As you said, the single xorg.conf file isn't really suited to evdev (or the > >other way round). The input system is now aimed at per-device, per-session > >(runtime) configuration. Static configuration is possible, but discouraged. > >You can dop keys into the HAL configuration, but that'll go away eventually > >with udev. > > Does this mean that he should be configuring udev? I've written my > own udev files (for usb storage) before; I found it annoying, but > possible. > > [For the record, as far as udev was concerned, I just had to make > another file to go in /etc/udev/rules.d/ ]. if you want your evdev devices to be configured by the xorg.conf, then udev is the best option. other than that, you can use the HAL fdi files to configure specific devices as well, but as I said, that configuration is less than optimal and will go away sometime in the future. Cheers, Peter ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?
On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 19:16:27 -0500 Tom Horsley wrote: > Actually, the dead simplest hack (which I may decide to do) would > be a shell script that reads the output from dbus-monitor and > switches on the messages it prints to invoke xinput commands :-). Well, I went and did it, and the horrifying thing is that it works quite well. See this attachment: http://bugzilla-attachments.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=148570 to this bugzilla: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=603103 I now start this script in the background in my .xsession file, and it keeps my drag lock settings around even across hotplug activity. ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?
On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 09:55:22 +1000 Peter Hutterer wrote: > I can tell you it's (technically) > quite trivial to add new config options. Not when you look at GTK code and see nothing but unintelligible gibberish and macro calls :-). Actually, the dead simplest hack (which I may decide to do) would be a shell script that reads the output from dbus-monitor and switches on the messages it prints to invoke xinput commands :-). ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?
On Fri, 27 Nov 2009, Peter Hutterer wrote: > On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 09:34:38AM -0500, Tom Horsley wrote: >> On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:19:52 -0500 >> Tom Horsley wrote: >> >>> That might be the very thing! There is even a fedora package >>> for it. I'm off to crank it up and see if I can get it >>> to work they way I want. Thanks! >> >> Unfortunately, just like gnome-mouse-properties, there is >> nothing in this tool that will handle the button mapping or >> drag lock changes I want :-(. > > As with much of input, we've been in a transitional phase for the last years > to turn from the old static system into a more flexible and dynamic one. X > is on the bottom of the stack, so any change needs to be reflected in the > upper layers - and they're not necessarily there yet. > > We're slowly catching up, but not as quick as some would like us and many > options are still not exposed - drag lock being one example. > > So here's the cardhouse: > As you said, the single xorg.conf file isn't really suited to evdev (or the > other way round). The input system is now aimed at per-device, per-session > (runtime) configuration. Static configuration is possible, but discouraged. > You can dop keys into the HAL configuration, but that'll go away eventually > with udev. Does this mean that he should be configuring udev? I've written my own udev files (for usb storage) before; I found it annoying, but possible. [For the record, as far as udev was concerned, I just had to make another file to go in /etc/udev/rules.d/ ]. HTH, - | Name: Tim Nelson | Because the Creator is,| | E-mail: wayl...@wayland.id.au| I am | - BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK Version 3.12 GCS d+++ s+: a- C++$ U+++$ P+++$ L+++ E- W+ N+ w--- V- PE(+) Y+>++ PGP->+++ R(+) !tv b++ DI D G+ e++> h! y- -END GEEK CODE BLOCK- ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?
On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 09:34:38AM -0500, Tom Horsley wrote: > On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:19:52 -0500 > Tom Horsley wrote: > > > That might be the very thing! There is even a fedora package > > for it. I'm off to crank it up and see if I can get it > > to work they way I want. Thanks! > > Unfortunately, just like gnome-mouse-properties, there is > nothing in this tool that will handle the button mapping or > drag lock changes I want :-(. As with much of input, we've been in a transitional phase for the last years to turn from the old static system into a more flexible and dynamic one. X is on the bottom of the stack, so any change needs to be reflected in the upper layers - and they're not necessarily there yet. We're slowly catching up, but not as quick as some would like us and many options are still not exposed - drag lock being one example. So here's the cardhouse: As you said, the single xorg.conf file isn't really suited to evdev (or the other way round). The input system is now aimed at per-device, per-session (runtime) configuration. Static configuration is possible, but discouraged. You can dop keys into the HAL configuration, but that'll go away eventually with udev. The best proposal for static configuration were Dan's xorg.conf.d patches but I don't know how much they have progressed in the last months. Maybe Dan can comment on that? For said run-time configuration, you need a configuration manager. gnome-settings-daemon along with gnome-control-center is making steps towards it, but there's a bit of inertia, not least because it's designed as a "one device" config tool, not a "per device" config tool. And the manpower to work on it is limited. GPointingDeviceSetting is the successor of gsynaptics and aims at per-device configuration. IMO it could do with better integration into the control-center capplets but I haven't looked at it in a while so I might be wrong there. I don't follow KDE or other desktop environments enough to be qualified to commment on what's going on there, I really don't know. If you don't want a session manager or you prefer a different desktop environment - you're on your own. At least until that environment gets the configuration tools required. So for now, not every option exposed by the driver can be enabled conveniently. Once the xorg.conf.d is there, that'll get easier, especially if you don't run a session daemon. If you run a session daemon, you're in for even more fun, since any static configuration may be overridden by the daemon's configuration. e.g. g-s-d supports basic touchpad configuration and that overrides whatever the user sets through HAL/xorg.conf. The key to solving this transitional state is to advance the desktop environment tools to expose more options to the user. > I wonder if I can make a generic gnome-settings-daemon > plugin that will just run user specified scripts on > dbus events? Then fancy GUI tools can come later, but > at least people could have a way to get things done > while waiting for the fancy stuff... IMO, it's better to go for the fancy GUI tools from the start instead of hacks that allow user-specified scripts to run at random times. I cringe at the thought of bugreports with badly-written shellscripts that conflict with g-s-d settings, they're near impossible to triage. The time it takes you to write this generic plugin is likely the same as it takes you to add the options you need to g-s-d (and control-center). Having done parts of the touchpad tool, I can tell you it's (technically) quite trivial to add new config options. Cheers, Peter ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?
On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:19:52 -0500 Tom Horsley wrote: > That might be the very thing! There is even a fedora package > for it. I'm off to crank it up and see if I can get it > to work they way I want. Thanks! Unfortunately, just like gnome-mouse-properties, there is nothing in this tool that will handle the button mapping or drag lock changes I want :-(. I wonder if I can make a generic gnome-settings-daemon plugin that will just run user specified scripts on dbus events? Then fancy GUI tools can come later, but at least people could have a way to get things done while waiting for the fancy stuff... ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?
On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 14:46:33 +0100 Tomasz Torcz wrote: > And http://live.gnome.org/GPointingDeviceSettings That might be the very thing! There is even a fedora package for it. I'm off to crank it up and see if I can get it to work they way I want. Thanks! ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?
On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 08:20:35AM -0500, Tom Horsley wrote: > On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:33:12 +0100 > Julien Cristau wrote: > > > AFAIK that daemon exists and is called gnome-settings-daemon. > > It is running, but I have no idea how to induce it to apply > my draglock settings when the trackball is hot plugged. > > There is a gnome-mouse-properties tool which allows you to > configure a fantastically limited subset of all the things > you can do to a mouse. And http://live.gnome.org/GPointingDeviceSettings -- Tomasz TorczThere exists no separation between gods and men: xmpp: zdzich...@chrome.pl one blends softly casual into the other. ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?
On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:33:12 +0100 Julien Cristau wrote: > AFAIK that daemon exists and is called gnome-settings-daemon. It is running, but I have no idea how to induce it to apply my draglock settings when the trackball is hot plugged. There is a gnome-mouse-properties tool which allows you to configure a fantastically limited subset of all the things you can do to a mouse. ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?
On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Julien Cristau wrote: > On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 07:14:16 -0500, Tom Horsley wrote: > >> I see that I get dbus system messages when I plug or unplug a >> mouse or keyboard. Is the grand plan to have a per user daemon >> listening for these and re-applying xinput settings when they >> show up? Does this daemon exist already and I just don't know >> its name? Do we really need yet another daemon? How long before >> linux runs out of PIDs? :-). >> > AFAIK that daemon exists and is called gnome-settings-daemon. > Erm... and on system where gnome is not installed? -- Luciano Montanaro Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. -- Douglas Adams ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg
Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?
On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 07:14:16 -0500, Tom Horsley wrote: > I see that I get dbus system messages when I plug or unplug a > mouse or keyboard. Is the grand plan to have a per user daemon > listening for these and re-applying xinput settings when they > show up? Does this daemon exist already and I just don't know > its name? Do we really need yet another daemon? How long before > linux runs out of PIDs? :-). > AFAIK that daemon exists and is called gnome-settings-daemon. Cheers, Julien ___ xorg mailing list xorg@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xorg