Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?

2009-12-02 Thread Daniel Stone
Hi,

On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 01:25:08AM +0100, olafbuddenha...@gmx.net wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 09:55:22AM +1000, Peter Hutterer wrote:
> > If you don't want a session manager or you prefer a different desktop
> > environment - you're on your own.
> 
> Let me remind you that GNOME is not an operating system. It is just a
> frontend.
> 
> It is nice if it provides a nice shiny tool to configure stuff; but it
> has no business *storing*, and *applying* such settings, which don't
> really have anything to do with GNOME at all. These should be pushed
> down to some generic infrastructure, which is not desktop-specific, and
> in fact not X-specific at all.
> 
> Unfortunately, it appears that such a generic session-aware hotplug
> infrastructure is yet to be invented...

I'm sure both GNOME and KDE would love you for writing one that both had
no complaints with, and was perfectly integrated with both.  And Xfce.
And Moblin.  And Maemo.  And fvwm2, and fluxbox, and my 'sudo Xorg :0
-noreset &| ~/bin/de &|'.

Looking forward to it! :)

Cheers,
Daniel


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Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?

2009-12-02 Thread Corbin Simpson
And thus marks the last time I attempt to be sassy on my Droid.

But as I was saying, the Generic Userspace Configuration Kit. If we're
going to add a Session Hotplug Infrastructure Tasklet, which is
desktop-agnostic, in order to configure the X server across multiple
platforms, you're going to need a Generic Userspace Configuration Kit
to talk to the kernel, since that's where the devices live.

Being desktop-aware has a lot of benefits, mostly in the realm of
policy control and convenience, and letting the DE configure things is
not as bad as, say, having GNOME-specific code in the server.

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 9:34 AM, Corbin Simpson
 wrote:
> You're right. We need a Generic Userspace Configuration Kit, which could
> talk to the Session Hotplug Infrastucture
>
> Posting from a mobile, pardon my terseness. ~ C.
>
> On Dec 2, 2009 5:09 AM,  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 09:55:22AM +1000, Peter Hutterer wrote: > If you
> don't want a session mana...
>
> Let me remind you that GNOME is not an operating system. It is just a
> frontend.
>
> It is nice if it provides a nice shiny tool to configure stuff; but it
> has no business *storing*, and *applying* such settings, which don't
> really have anything to do with GNOME at all. These should be pushed
> down to some generic infrastructure, which is not desktop-specific, and
> in fact not X-specific at all.
>
> Unfortunately, it appears that such a generic session-aware hotplug
> infrastructure is yet to be invented...
>
> -antrik-
>
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-- 
Only fools are easily impressed by what is only
barely beyond their reach. ~ Unknown

Corbin Simpson

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Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?

2009-12-02 Thread Corbin Simpson
You're right. We need a Generic Userspace Configuration Kit, which could
talk to the Session Hotplug Infrastucture

Posting from a mobile, pardon my terseness. ~ C.

On Dec 2, 2009 5:09 AM,  wrote:

Hi,

On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 09:55:22AM +1000, Peter Hutterer wrote: > If you
don't want a session mana...
Let me remind you that GNOME is not an operating system. It is just a
frontend.

It is nice if it provides a nice shiny tool to configure stuff; but it
has no business *storing*, and *applying* such settings, which don't
really have anything to do with GNOME at all. These should be pushed
down to some generic infrastructure, which is not desktop-specific, and
in fact not X-specific at all.

Unfortunately, it appears that such a generic session-aware hotplug
infrastructure is yet to be invented...

-antrik-

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Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?

2009-12-02 Thread olafBuddenhagen
Hi,

On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 09:55:22AM +1000, Peter Hutterer wrote:

> If you don't want a session manager or you prefer a different desktop
> environment - you're on your own.

Let me remind you that GNOME is not an operating system. It is just a
frontend.

It is nice if it provides a nice shiny tool to configure stuff; but it
has no business *storing*, and *applying* such settings, which don't
really have anything to do with GNOME at all. These should be pushed
down to some generic infrastructure, which is not desktop-specific, and
in fact not X-specific at all.

Unfortunately, it appears that such a generic session-aware hotplug
infrastructure is yet to be invented...

-antrik-
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Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?

2009-11-27 Thread Dan Nicholson
On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 3:55 PM, Peter Hutterer
 wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 09:34:38AM -0500, Tom Horsley wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:19:52 -0500
>> Tom Horsley wrote:
>>
>> > That might be the very thing! There is even a fedora package
>> > for it. I'm off to crank it up and see if I can get it
>> > to work they way I want. Thanks!
>>
>> Unfortunately, just like gnome-mouse-properties, there is
>> nothing in this tool that will handle the button mapping or
>> drag lock changes I want :-(.
>
> As with much of input, we've been in a transitional phase for the last years
> to turn from the old static system into a more flexible and dynamic one. X
> is on the bottom of the stack, so any change needs to be reflected in the
> upper layers - and they're not necessarily there yet.
>
> We're slowly catching up, but not as quick as some would like us and many
> options are still not exposed - drag lock being one example.
>
> So here's the cardhouse:
> As you said, the single xorg.conf file isn't really suited to evdev (or the
> other way round). The input system is now aimed at per-device, per-session
> (runtime) configuration. Static configuration is possible, but discouraged.
> You can dop keys into the HAL configuration, but that'll go away eventually
> with udev.
> The best proposal for static configuration were Dan's xorg.conf.d patches
> but I don't know how much they have progressed in the last months. Maybe Dan
> can comment on that?

Just finished it yesterday (been too busy), and it seems to work
correctly. I'll post it shortly.

--
Dan
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Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?

2009-11-26 Thread Peter Hutterer
On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 11:02:23AM +1100, Timothy S. Nelson wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Nov 2009, Peter Hutterer wrote:
> 
> >On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 09:34:38AM -0500, Tom Horsley wrote:
> >>On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:19:52 -0500
> >>Tom Horsley wrote:
> >>
> >>>That might be the very thing! There is even a fedora package
> >>>for it. I'm off to crank it up and see if I can get it
> >>>to work they way I want. Thanks!
> >>
> >>Unfortunately, just like gnome-mouse-properties, there is
> >>nothing in this tool that will handle the button mapping or
> >>drag lock changes I want :-(.
> >
> >As with much of input, we've been in a transitional phase for the last years
> >to turn from the old static system into a more flexible and dynamic one. X
> >is on the bottom of the stack, so any change needs to be reflected in the
> >upper layers - and they're not necessarily there yet.
> >
> >We're slowly catching up, but not as quick as some would like us and many
> >options are still not exposed - drag lock being one example.
> >
> >So here's the cardhouse:
> >As you said, the single xorg.conf file isn't really suited to evdev (or the
> >other way round). The input system is now aimed at per-device, per-session
> >(runtime) configuration. Static configuration is possible, but discouraged.
> >You can dop keys into the HAL configuration, but that'll go away eventually
> >with udev.
> 
>   Does this mean that he should be configuring udev?  I've written my
> own udev files (for usb storage) before; I found it annoying, but
> possible.
> 
> [For the record, as far as udev was concerned, I just had to make
> another file to go in /etc/udev/rules.d/ ].


if you want your evdev devices to be configured by the xorg.conf, then udev
is the best option.
other than that, you can use the HAL fdi files to configure specific devices
as well, but as I said, that configuration is less than optimal and will go
away sometime in the future.

Cheers,
  Peter
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Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?

2009-11-26 Thread Tom Horsley
On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 19:16:27 -0500
Tom Horsley wrote:

> Actually, the dead simplest hack (which I may decide to do) would
> be a shell script that reads the output from dbus-monitor and
> switches on the messages it prints to invoke xinput commands :-).

Well, I went and did it, and the horrifying thing is that it
works quite well.

See this attachment:

http://bugzilla-attachments.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=148570

to this bugzilla:

https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=603103

I now start this script in the background in my .xsession file,
and it keeps my drag lock settings around even across hotplug
activity.
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Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?

2009-11-26 Thread Tom Horsley
On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 09:55:22 +1000
Peter Hutterer wrote:

> I can tell you it's (technically)
> quite trivial to add new config options.

Not when you look at GTK code and see nothing but unintelligible
gibberish and macro calls :-).

Actually, the dead simplest hack (which I may decide to do) would
be a shell script that reads the output from dbus-monitor and
switches on the messages it prints to invoke xinput commands :-).
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Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?

2009-11-26 Thread Timothy S. Nelson
On Fri, 27 Nov 2009, Peter Hutterer wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 09:34:38AM -0500, Tom Horsley wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:19:52 -0500
>> Tom Horsley wrote:
>>
>>> That might be the very thing! There is even a fedora package
>>> for it. I'm off to crank it up and see if I can get it
>>> to work they way I want. Thanks!
>>
>> Unfortunately, just like gnome-mouse-properties, there is
>> nothing in this tool that will handle the button mapping or
>> drag lock changes I want :-(.
>
> As with much of input, we've been in a transitional phase for the last years
> to turn from the old static system into a more flexible and dynamic one. X
> is on the bottom of the stack, so any change needs to be reflected in the
> upper layers - and they're not necessarily there yet.
>
> We're slowly catching up, but not as quick as some would like us and many
> options are still not exposed - drag lock being one example.
>
> So here's the cardhouse:
> As you said, the single xorg.conf file isn't really suited to evdev (or the
> other way round). The input system is now aimed at per-device, per-session
> (runtime) configuration. Static configuration is possible, but discouraged.
> You can dop keys into the HAL configuration, but that'll go away eventually
> with udev.

Does this mean that he should be configuring udev?  I've written my 
own udev files (for usb storage) before; I found it annoying, but possible.

[For the record, as far as udev was concerned, I just had to make another file 
to go in /etc/udev/rules.d/ ].

HTH,


-
| Name: Tim Nelson | Because the Creator is,|
| E-mail: wayl...@wayland.id.au| I am   |
-

BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK
Version 3.12
GCS d+++ s+: a- C++$ U+++$ P+++$ L+++ E- W+ N+ w--- V- 
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Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?

2009-11-26 Thread Peter Hutterer
On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 09:34:38AM -0500, Tom Horsley wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:19:52 -0500
> Tom Horsley wrote:
> 
> > That might be the very thing! There is even a fedora package
> > for it. I'm off to crank it up and see if I can get it
> > to work they way I want. Thanks!
> 
> Unfortunately, just like gnome-mouse-properties, there is
> nothing in this tool that will handle the button mapping or
> drag lock changes I want :-(.

As with much of input, we've been in a transitional phase for the last years
to turn from the old static system into a more flexible and dynamic one. X
is on the bottom of the stack, so any change needs to be reflected in the
upper layers - and they're not necessarily there yet.

We're slowly catching up, but not as quick as some would like us and many
options are still not exposed - drag lock being one example.

So here's the cardhouse:
As you said, the single xorg.conf file isn't really suited to evdev (or the
other way round). The input system is now aimed at per-device, per-session
(runtime) configuration. Static configuration is possible, but discouraged.
You can dop keys into the HAL configuration, but that'll go away eventually
with udev. 
The best proposal for static configuration were Dan's xorg.conf.d patches
but I don't know how much they have progressed in the last months. Maybe Dan
can comment on that? 

For said run-time configuration, you need a configuration manager.
gnome-settings-daemon along with gnome-control-center is making steps
towards it, but there's a bit of inertia, not least because it's designed as
a "one device" config tool, not a "per device" config tool. And the manpower
to work on it is limited.

GPointingDeviceSetting is the successor of gsynaptics and aims at per-device
configuration. IMO it could do with better integration into the
control-center capplets but I haven't looked at it in a while so I might be
wrong there.

I don't follow KDE or other desktop environments enough to be qualified to
commment on what's going on there, I really don't know.

If you don't want a session manager or you prefer a different desktop
environment - you're on your own. At least until that environment gets the
configuration tools required.

So for now, not every option exposed by the driver can be enabled
conveniently. Once the xorg.conf.d is there, that'll get easier, especially
if you don't run a session daemon. If you run a session daemon, you're in
for even more fun, since any static configuration may be overridden by the
daemon's configuration. e.g. g-s-d supports basic touchpad configuration and
that overrides whatever the user sets through HAL/xorg.conf.

The key to solving this transitional state is to advance the desktop
environment tools to expose more options to the user.

> I wonder if I can make a generic gnome-settings-daemon
> plugin that will just run user specified scripts on
> dbus events? Then fancy GUI tools can come later, but
> at least people could have a way to get things done
> while waiting for the fancy stuff...

IMO, it's better to go for the fancy GUI tools from the start instead of
hacks that allow user-specified scripts to run at random times.
I cringe at the thought of bugreports with badly-written shellscripts that
conflict with g-s-d settings, they're near impossible to triage.
The time it takes you to write this generic plugin is likely the same as it
takes you to add the options you need to g-s-d (and control-center).
Having done parts of the touchpad tool, I can tell you it's (technically)
quite trivial to add new config options.

Cheers,
  Peter
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Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?

2009-11-26 Thread Tom Horsley
On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:19:52 -0500
Tom Horsley wrote:

> That might be the very thing! There is even a fedora package
> for it. I'm off to crank it up and see if I can get it
> to work they way I want. Thanks!

Unfortunately, just like gnome-mouse-properties, there is
nothing in this tool that will handle the button mapping or
drag lock changes I want :-(.

I wonder if I can make a generic gnome-settings-daemon
plugin that will just run user specified scripts on
dbus events? Then fancy GUI tools can come later, but
at least people could have a way to get things done
while waiting for the fancy stuff...
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Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?

2009-11-26 Thread Tom Horsley
On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 14:46:33 +0100
Tomasz Torcz wrote:

>   And http://live.gnome.org/GPointingDeviceSettings

That might be the very thing! There is even a fedora package
for it. I'm off to crank it up and see if I can get it
to work they way I want. Thanks!
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Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?

2009-11-26 Thread Tomasz Torcz
On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 08:20:35AM -0500, Tom Horsley wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:33:12 +0100
> Julien Cristau wrote:
> 
> > AFAIK that daemon exists and is called gnome-settings-daemon.
> 
> It is running, but I have no idea how to induce it to apply
> my draglock settings when the trackball is hot plugged.
> 
> There is a gnome-mouse-properties tool which allows you to
> configure a fantastically limited subset of all the things
> you can do to a mouse.

  And http://live.gnome.org/GPointingDeviceSettings

-- 
Tomasz TorczThere exists no separation between gods and men:
xmpp: zdzich...@chrome.pl   one blends softly casual into the other.

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Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?

2009-11-26 Thread Tom Horsley
On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:33:12 +0100
Julien Cristau wrote:

> AFAIK that daemon exists and is called gnome-settings-daemon.

It is running, but I have no idea how to induce it to apply
my draglock settings when the trackball is hot plugged.

There is a gnome-mouse-properties tool which allows you to
configure a fantastically limited subset of all the things
you can do to a mouse.
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Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?

2009-11-26 Thread Luciano Montanaro
On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Julien Cristau  wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 07:14:16 -0500, Tom Horsley wrote:
>
>> I see that I get dbus system messages when I plug or unplug a
>> mouse or keyboard. Is the grand plan to have a per user daemon
>> listening for these and re-applying xinput settings when they
>> show up? Does this daemon exist already and I just don't know
>> its name? Do we really need yet another daemon? How long before
>> linux runs out of PIDs? :-).
>>
> AFAIK that daemon exists and is called gnome-settings-daemon.
>

Erm... and on system where gnome is not installed?


-- 
Luciano Montanaro

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no account be allowed to do the job. -- Douglas Adams
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Re: xinput: Do I want xorg.conf? Do I want hal? Do I want udev?

2009-11-26 Thread Julien Cristau
On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 07:14:16 -0500, Tom Horsley wrote:

> I see that I get dbus system messages when I plug or unplug a
> mouse or keyboard. Is the grand plan to have a per user daemon
> listening for these and re-applying xinput settings when they
> show up? Does this daemon exist already and I just don't know
> its name? Do we really need yet another daemon? How long before
> linux runs out of PIDs? :-).
> 
AFAIK that daemon exists and is called gnome-settings-daemon.

Cheers,
Julien
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