[Zen] Re: Intellectualizing -
Joe, This quote doesn't bother me as it does you. I read Suzuki's 'see' as already perceiving. If you're 'seeing' something you're already intellectualizing it. You've already created pluarlity - a seer and a seen.. If you are just experiencing (Buddha Nature) there is no 'see' and of course no intellectualizing - Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Yes, Bill! quoting: As soon as you see something, you already start to intellectualize it. As soon as you intellectualize something, it is no longer what you saw. Now, what about when that's not so? The out-of-context line is too glaringly black and white. What about when you see something, and do not intellectualize? The Roshi says (incorrectly, because not always so), ...you already start What about if you don't? When you don't. Start. The quote uses too, too broad a brush. As you know! What you call 'perceptions' or 'delusions', to match the Roshi's intellectualizations, my Chan teacher called Vexations ...a bit less neutral-sounding and laudatory than intellectualizations. I think he picked a good word, for his English-speaking students' sake. (I'll see if I can research the Chinese word, and obtain several English synonym translations, and bring them here). Vexations we're particularly attached to give us an especially hard time. I sometimes call them bewitchments, and I like what the old-fashioned menacing feel of the term communicates. --Joe Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: As soon as you see something, you already start to intellectualize it. As soon as you intellectualize something, it is no longer what you saw. ~ Sunryu Suzuki I call these intellectualizations 'perceptions' or 'delusions'. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Intellectualizing -
ABSOLUTELY! Although I'd even drop the list of see, hear, touch, taste, smell,* and just use the word 'experience'. When you're just experiencing (Buddha Nature) there is no discrimination between seeing, hearing, touching, tasting and smelling. It's all Just THIS! * I've intentionally left out think because I do not consider that an experience and not part of Buddha Nature. I know that's not orthodox, but that's what I have experienced and now believe. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pudgala2 pudgala2@... wrote: As soon as you see something, The unenlightened only see what their preconditioned constituent sentient beings (beliefs, attitudes, opinions, moods, values, etc.) will allow or force them to see and nothing more, you already start to intellectualize it. sentient beings automatically process it. As soon as you intellectualize something, As soon as sentient beings process something, it is no longer what you saw. only the mental results of what sentient beings made up your mind to see will be seen. The Enlightened see, hear, touch, taste, smell, and think immediately without opinionated processing. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! wrote: As soon as you see something, you already start to intellectualize it. As soon as you intellectualize something, it is no longer what you saw. ~ Sunryu Suzuki I call these intellectualizations 'perceptions' or 'delusions'. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Intellectualizing -
Thought : Experience :: Masturbation : Sex Bill the the cartoon character whose crazy buddy says Thanks, I needed that after Bill slaps him. By the way, does anyone else see the humor: Bill posts about the frivolity of intellectualizing, and people immediately start ripping his semantics to shreds. Did anyone even READ his post, or did they just do as most people in conversation, which is to count down the seconds until the other person stops talking so that their own point can be made? Do you also complain that a painting of a fire gives no actual heat or light? There is no mindfulness to be found on this forum, only signposts, and a sign is not the place to which it points (except the one that says If you lived here, you'd be home by now!) On Tue, 7/2/13, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Subject: [Zen] Re: Intellectualizing - To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, July 2, 2013, 6:03 AM ABSOLUTELY! Although I'd even drop the list of see, hear, touch, taste, smell,* and just use the word 'experience'. When you're just experiencing (Buddha Nature) there is no discrimination between seeing, hearing, touching, tasting and smelling. It's all Just THIS! * I've intentionally left out think because I do not consider that an experience and not part of Buddha Nature. I know that's not orthodox, but that's what I have experienced and now believe. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pudgala2 pudgala2@... wrote: As soon as you see something, The unenlightened only see what their preconditioned constituent sentient beings (beliefs, attitudes, opinions, moods, values, etc.) will allow or force them to see and nothing more, you already start to intellectualize it. sentient beings automatically process it. As soon as you intellectualize something, As soon as sentient beings process something, it is no longer what you saw. only the mental results of what sentient beings made up your mind to see will be seen. The Enlightened see, hear, touch, taste, smell, and think immediately without opinionated processing. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! wrote: As soon as you see something, you already start to intellectualize it. As soon as you intellectualize something, it is no longer what you saw. ~ Sunryu Suzuki I call these intellectualizations 'perceptions' or 'delusions'. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Intellectualizing -
Yes, Bill! quoting: As soon as you see something, you already start to intellectualize it. As soon as you intellectualize something, it is no longer what you saw. Now, what about when that's not so? The out-of-context line is too glaringly black and white. What about when you see something, and do not intellectualize? The Roshi says (incorrectly, because not always so), ...you already start What about if you don't? When you don't. Start. The quote uses too, too broad a brush. As you know! What you call 'perceptions' or 'delusions', to match the Roshi's intellectualizations, my Chan teacher called Vexations ...a bit less neutral-sounding and laudatory than intellectualizations. I think he picked a good word, for his English-speaking students' sake. (I'll see if I can research the Chinese word, and obtain several English synonym translations, and bring them here). Vexations we're particularly attached to give us an especially hard time. I sometimes call them bewitchments, and I like what the old-fashioned menacing feel of the term communicates. --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: As soon as you see something, you already start to intellectualize it. As soon as you intellectualize something, it is no longer what you saw. ~ Sunryu Suzuki I call these intellectualizations 'perceptions' or 'delusions'. ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Intellectualizing -
As soon as you see something, The unenlightened only see what their preconditioned constituent sentient beings (beliefs, attitudes, opinions, moods, values, etc.) will allow or force them to see and nothing more, you already start to intellectualize it. sentient beings automatically process it. As soon as you intellectualize something, As soon as sentient beings process something, it is no longer what you saw. only the mental results of what sentient beings made up your mind to see will be seen. The Enlightened see, hear, touch, taste, smell, and think immediately without opinionated processing. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! wrote: As soon as you see something, you already start to intellectualize it. As soon as you intellectualize something, it is no longer what you saw. ~ Sunryu Suzuki I call these intellectualizations 'perceptions' or 'delusions'. ...Bill!
